Why Troy Worked

[@BetterWithBob]

UPDATE: The user who left the comment about Hector losing to Achilles is @rishiraj1616. Had his comment screenshotted and forgot about it.

[@BradLad56]

Just for the hell of it, I would like to point out that this is one of the few films where Sean Bean doesn't die.

[@BetterWithBob]

Flightplan, The Martian and Jupiter Ascending are the ones I've seen where he doesn't

[@BradLad56]

@@BetterWithBob still feel sorry for him though since he can't keep a job cause he's always dying lol

[@Chuck_EL]

​​@@BetterWithBob He's in The Hitman game as a Rich Tycoon And yes he "dies" in it too

[@elijahalbiston]

he's one of the only ones to even survive.

[@ricardoaguirre6126]

He survived in Bravo Two Zero. And it's a war movie.

[@audreyleist4970]

I actually don’t mind that Brad Pitt wasn’t that into the role. I think it mirrors his character as Achilles because Achilles is also getting burned out from being a warrior and is questioning his purpose and the utility of war. The irony of Brad Pitt perhaps seeming less that thrilled to be there is exactly how Achilles was feeling at the end of his career too

[@BetterWithBob]

That's an interesting point others have made as well

[@nickdarr7328]

I thought the same but I think it's both. I mean the opening scene shows pitts bare ass lying in bed next to 2 girls. So it probably wasn't the dramatic tragic epic Pitt imagined. But as Achilles lost his blood lust and fools hunt for glory after being with Cassandra, respecting hector and meeting a real king in Priam. The actual Pitt probably gave it his all for the likes of bana and their duel and respect for actors like Cox and O'Toole and Sean Bean of course

[@georgeprchal3924]

No he really wasn't.

[@martind5653]

True I always felt like Achilleus/Brad Pitt idc attitude was on purpose it just worked in this role.

[@HugoStiglitz88]

That's why I never noticed that he wasn't fully into it. I never even thought of it because I just figured that was the characters attitude not brads

[@ALT3REDB3AST]

Achilles vs Hector is one of the best 1v1 battles committed to film.

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

Right now, i cant think of a better one, If you add together Style and storytellin through the Action.

[@Farron6]

Brad Pitt was incredible in that fight scene. Looked so fluid

[@TY-km8hj]

Agreed, haven't seen a better sword fight in film tbh

[@lephinor2458]

The ending fight in 1960s Macbeth is good.

[@HugoStiglitz88]

​@@Farron6yea he really sold how bad ass and slick Achilles was through the whole movie. I love how he did all of it himself too. I wouldn't have guessed that

[@oliver8296]

Pitt's indifference at times seemed in tune with his jaded Achilles character, so that worked out fine

[@nerzenjaeger]

Absolutely.

[@loveliesbleeding2]

I truly, deeply appreciate your thoughtfulness of Helen as a character/figure and of Diane's depiction of her. Thank you for that.

[@BetterWithBob]

Thanks so much 😊

[@samf.s.7731]

Yes she's so underrated, and not just in this movie. She's a really terrific actress despite being "low key" in terms of fame

[@Jim-Mc]

I'm in the 'gods were real' camp with this film. And Brad Pitt may have some flat lines in it but his sociopathic stare was perfect as a killer demigod with a huge ego.

[@BetterWithBob]

I believe they're real in the film too

[@patrickirish8091]

One commdnt I read states When he cuts off Apollos statues head then dies by an arrow they say Apollo guided that arrow as revenge for descerating his Temple. His fellow soldier even warned him saying "Apollo sees all".

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@patrickirish8091 Achilles desecrating the temple of Apollo is the event that set his doom in motion and this is clearly portrayed in the film. The gods are definitely real in this movie, they just arent on screen much

[@theliato3809]

The intent may not have been there but it’s definitely a possibility

[@JB-ol3xo]

@@BetterWithBob I mean in the film Achilles pretty much settles it, he says something along the line of "I know more of the Gods then you ever will... I've met them".

[@jmchez]

Troy had, perhaps, the greatest display of filial and patriarchal love of any movie. Hector, kneels before Priam: -- Father. Forgive me for any offenses. I served you as best as i could. Priam, kisses Hector on the forehead: -- May the Gods be with you. Hector, No father ever had a better son. Both actors really sold that scene.

[@mattnar3865]

That scene was kind of ruined for me considering it was Priam's fault, not listening to Hector is the reason Hector now has to go out and die.

[@BetterWithBob]

@@jmchez so sorry I forgot to reply. You're absolutely right there

[@ramiromen6595]

The scene between Priam and Achilles is just magnificent.

[@BetterWithBob]

It certainly is

[@vanshuppal2291]

The only truly canonic thing about the film 😂

[@SirBoggins]

100th like 👍🏻

[@elenivargis126]

TROY is one of those films you can watch over & over again and never get bored. Job well done!

[@BetterWithBob]

😊😊😊

[@jesustovar2549]

I confirm.

[@RodHammett95]

Literally me everytime I catch it on cable tv!

[@quinnastuno9959]

One of the few movies I wouldn’t be mad about a sequel coming out to, always wanted to see a Sean Bean-led Odyssey movie

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah he could lobby for it now he's got the clout from GOT

[@MrJH101]

Odysseus would get killed… Jokes aside, would love to see Sean Bean do that movie too

[@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm]

I totally understand why they didn't thou. Part of the magic in this adaptation of the Ilyad is that we never directly see the gods or other mythological beings. It can be as realistic as it could have the gods pulling strings unseen. And the unknown creates this tension and athmosphere. Is Achilles an actual demi gid here? He could be. Did Apollo and others influence events like in the Ilyad? Maybe? But in the Odyssey everything is directly tied to Gods and Beasts of the mythos. So you'd be forced to take away from the first movies open possebilities. CGI and what not.

[@McClane4Ever.]

@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm You could have all the machinations of the gods hidden behind a veil unseen by the audience/characters. The monsters and such would be cool with modern AI enhanced stop motion.

[@julesguermonprez1392]

@@BetterWithBob the sad part : WB did have plans for an Odyssey movie after Troy turned out to be the highest grossing sword and sandal movie to date. ...they just didn't have any such plans that were related to this version in particular. the list of attempts so far : -2008 : a space version. with George miller approached. under brad Pitt's company Plan B, because chance has a sense of humor. -2009 : a different version, produced by Gianni Nunnari (who was fresh off 300), and written by Ann Peacock . to be directed by Jonathan liebesman (who had yet to be assigned to Wrath of the titans. and would also pitch a Julius caesar movie for Warner later on) -2013 : still the space version. but with David heyman co-producing. -2014 : still the version on earth with Gianni Nunnari, now co-written by Jeremy doner *, and for director they hired... ...Fedor Bondachurk. yup. that one. * doner who had then submitted to WB a Napoleon script described as scarface-like. initially meant for Rupert sanders, but Zack Snyder later was interested by it -2019 : the last we heard of it, Mel Gibson was courted to play odysseus. peacock, doner and nunnari were still listed. and then... ...that's it, for now. after that the flu happens, oceans rise, empires fall, and the version of the odyssey to make it to the big screen is an indie one with Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche, focused on the second half with the "once back on Ithaca" part.

[@Newidhan]

Achilles vs Hector is still probably my favorite movie duel of all time

[@BetterWithBob]

Very fair lol

[@Newidhan]

@@BetterWithBob also Achilles is basically an anime character. He throws that spear like a god and everyone goes N-NANI?!?!

[@l.b.2392]

Mine is the final duel in Kurosawa's 'Sanjuro' 🌊

[@samatar6852]

Troy was awesome. Always thought it got an unfair rep.

[@BetterWithBob]

Me too XD

[@alexman378]

Yeah, by Pitt as well. I don’t understand why he felt Achilles was portrayed as purely heroic. Hector was a purely heroic figure, and the true main character of the Iliad (the original story ends with his death). Achilles is an anti hero with aspirational qualities, but the first time he truly does something selfless in the movie, is in the very end, when he hands over Hector’s body to Priam, sends his men home and goes back in Troy to save Briseis during the sacking of the city. In Greece, we consider him the definitive version of Achilles, probably the best interpretation we’ll ever see.

[@BetterWithBob]

@@alexman378 oh really? You're in Greece? I'd be very interested to hear how the movie was received there

[@alexman378]

@@BetterWithBob Extremely well, actually. Most people really love it and still talk about it. Everyone acknowledges the inaccuracies, but it’s pretty much agreed that there’s no real way of making a satisfying 2-2.5 hour feature about the entire Trojan War if you’re going to be 100% accurate. Pitt and Bana are always seen as stand outs in their roles, seen as the definitive versions of those characters, even by those who didn’t feel as strongly for the film.

[@KeyBladeMaster-Dan]

@@alexman378 It reminds me of the Last Samurai discourse it's very well loved in Japan despite the inaccuracies but for some reason a lot of westerners want to convince everyone that they hate it over there when they don't 😅

[@LeeCarlson]

Pitt's Achilles is more than just a "strong man." Watching his portrayal on the battlefield, including dodging swords and spears in melee, one could believe that his skin was impervious to the weapons.

[@BetterWithBob]

Ooh very good point

[@dungeonsanddobbers2683]

If you watch him in the duel with Hektor you can even see that a lot of his movements are just...unnatural, as if some other force were moving his body out of danger.

[@blue-pi2kt]

​​@@dungeonsanddobbers2683I think the movie's emphasis on his surreal yet not acrobatic agility is what makes him feel so utterly unstoppable. We have good visual motifs for the likes of Hercules. But Achilles style of combat is not really described beyond his rage, the film really bridges this gap without utilising anything which borders on stereotype or feels like a trope.

[@Quasimodo-mq8tw]

I started to dislike the Trend of based in reality but i love when you could Chose to believe in the supernatural but also can have a rational explanation If you want one. Archillies depecition Made me question His Mortal Status at the time and i Loved how you can See that even after the First step of Chinese Telephone there would be one that Heard "invurnable but for.."

[@alexdunphy3716]

​@@blue-pi2ktone of if not THE most common titles/nicknames Homer calls Achilles in the Illiad is "swift footed Achilles" which would imply that he is famously fast and agile

[@2wolf5]

Everyone has their thing.... that being said claiming that Diane Kruger is not pretty enough is plain crazy, all these years past and she still looks amazing.

[@BetterWithBob]

I think a lot of it comes from bitterness, jealousy or some kind of insecurity. I saw it so much in journalism of the 2000s and 2010s, where people seemed to delight in being so vicious to people's appearances

[@8301TheJMan]

I had no clue that there actually was anyone who thought she wasn't good-looking enough!? Like seriously, in this film - she's easily one of the ten most beautiful women i have ever seen! What the FUCK are people talking about?!

[@zzabbie]

I’m guilty as charged. Over the years I’ve grown to appreciate her beauty and performance.

[@pyropulseIXXI]

She literally isn’t beautiful enough when Helen is described as the most beautiful woman of all time It doesn’t really matter in the context of a movie, but it is still a factual statement

[@pyropulseIXXI]

@@8301TheJManten most beautiful woman ever? That is extreme. Hollywood women tend to have masculine features. Everyday girls in small towns look better than virtually every celebrity. The 20 year old girl working at your local McDonald’s is better looking than 90% of Hollywood women

[@dannybonett8349]

Your take on Orlando as Paris is truly eye opening and although there is little likability in his character, the fact that he was willing to lean so heavily into that persona where so many others wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole makes me appreciate him that much more. I enjoy this movie and although I LOVE Greek mythology and would be eternally grateful for a proper adaptation of the Odyssey done with all mythological aspects personified, I did appreciate this film for a worthy portrayal of the event as if it could have happened

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you :)

[@jamesreed4229]

I love how well they executed the "hero of another story" trope with Odysseus. One of my favorite Sean Bean performances

[@BetterWithBob]

And that's already a difficult list to choose from lol

[@docsaico]

We watched TROY in our school’s auditorium, and I fucking loved it SO MUCH. Such an underrated movie. Everything was interesting, captivating, compelling! 🔥

[@BetterWithBob]

You speak le truth 😄

[@justlogan6979]

I had no clue that Troy wasn’t universally thought of as an all time great

[@BetterWithBob]

Alas I was aware from the beginning because of the message boards back in the day

[@RicWalker]

You briefly mentioned it. But it is very rarely appreciated that the casting of Orlando Bloom and Eric Bana as Paris and Hector created the most believable brothers in cinema history. they looked the part and had the chemistry that kids like me did not know them at that time wanted to check if they were related in real life. thats how awesome they worked together.

[@BetterWithBob]

They had worked together in Black Hawk Down beforehand and I think I read an interview where Eric said they'd already become good friends, so in that sense it was very easy for them to be brothers

[@PlanofBattle]

What I also like about Hector is his pithy sense of strategy. On Menelaus he tells Paris “Make him swing and miss. He’ll tire.” On being asked in council to follow up the Trojan victory with an attack on the Greek fleet he notes “Achilles and his Myrmidons did not fight today. There is division in the Greek ranks.”

[@jedirayden]

And he warns that attacking the ships is a bad idea, as it may unite the Greeks. Hector is smart enough to know that the real war is between him and Achilles, and if some conflict among the Greeks has pushed Achilles to sit out, they'd be foolish to risk putting Achilles back on the field... And look what happens.

[@Jordyb33123]

The death of hector still makes me cry especially when Priam comes to collect his body

[@BetterWithBob]

It's so tragic 😭

[@onewinter9411]

"I have endured what no one on earth has endured before. I kissed the hands of the man who killed my son." "I loved my boy from the moment he opened his eyes until the moment you closed them." "How many cousins have you killed? How many sons and fathers and brothers and husbands? How many, brave Achilles?" Peter O' Toole wasn't pregnant but the way he delivers these lines *chef's kiss*

[@nickdarr7328]

Boromir is also my absolute favorite. Its a small but devoted group. I was born in 88 and have an uncle 7 or 8 years older. Every Christmas eve wed stay at my grandparents and me and my big brother would watch the animated version that only covers half the trilogy and was never finished. But it had Vikings boromir with horned helmet taking arrows 3 at a time and blowing his horn and cutting down orcs. And then his Vikings funeral has been such a vivid memory

[@nickdarr7328]

What's funny is that you can read Brad Pitts checking out as even more spectacular acting as Achilles was checked out and would have left if not for patricles death at the hands of hector. But then his unwanted feelings of respect for hector during battle and then guilt while facing a true noble king in hectors father Priam. Basically Sean Bean/ Ulysses kept him there till the end

[@coffeecocaine8878]

James Cosmos character deserved more attention, I felt just as bad about his death as Hector. Overall perfect nostalgic throwback

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah while I was editing, even I regretted not talking about him more

[@DunaEider93]

The press actually said the Diane wasnt beautiful enough...? 😂😂😂 Listen, i might not be gay but when i saw this movie as a kid for the first time i remember been in aw of her beauty in the way the i really actually thought *Helen* was the most beautiful woman i had ever seen in my life I can still watch this now and stand by it Any jealous biatches will talk sh*t out of that. Just pure jealousy

[@nenabunena]

I didn't find her that pretty either, for me vivien Leigh, Catherine zeta Jones and Natalie Portman are that level of high beauty

[@BetterWithBob]

I'm surprised to see Natalie Portman mentioned. While I think she is beautiful, to me she's more that 'pretty but not too pretty' that doesn't make people feel insecure type, where she can still be cast as the relatable lead and women won't hate her lol

[@nenabunena]

@BetterWithBob I think she was at her prime during the prequels and she had nice skin and small doll shape face and features. I guess that's what she shares with Jones and leigh

[@kasiarybka6786]

When I watched it as a young girl I hated Helen so much for being so beautiful that I couldn't actually focus on the movie. To this day I feel bad for it

[@BetterWithBob]

@@kasiarybka6786 Oh wow lol

[@samueldesmondtuah1421]

For the life of me, I didn't notice Brad Pitt was off as all. Achilles looked cool and absolutely killer. His aloof nature felt Great as he is like the Greatest warrior with no equal and it wasn't until Hector did anyone even came close to harming him. [SPOILER ALERT] That is why the scene at the Gate where Hector scratch his armor surprised him. Because immediately afterwards he took the fight even more seriously and went for the kill. I still think about Troy from time to time. The same way I think about Lord of The Rings the Two Towers and Dune 2 (to be fair Dune 2 was recent). It also started my love for Greek myths as I saw it as a child. It is literally a core memory. Love the film I recommend it to everyone who even mentions they were interested in historical epics or sword and sorcery movies.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

It varies from scene to scene, sometimes you can definitely notice Pitt is done with the whole thing and then the next scene he is motivated again, makes it a bit obvious that movies arent shot in order. If he started out motivated and then lost interest gradually it could fit the story, but it doesnt. Still, I think he did a decent enough job and Achilles isnt the main character, hes just this unstoppable killing machine side character.

[@jedirayden]

​@@TheSuperappelflapAchilles isn't the main character? Hard disagree there. Achilles and Hector are the two main characters, and though Eric Bana gives an incredible performance that steals the show, the movie is definitely Achilles centric. The monologues by Odysseus at the beginning and end of the movie essentially confirm this. The opening monologue is a perfect description of the driving force behind everything Achilles does, and in the closing monologue Achilles is literally the last word spoken in the film.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@jedirayden Well obviously Pitt has a big role, but if you look at screentime the movie has like 15 or 20 major characters so if one of them isnt performing 100% it doesnt impact the quality of the movie as much, thats what I wanted to say. And the story ultimately is about Helen and Paris and the fall of Troy, its mostly told from the Trojans perspective, depicting the Greeks as ruthless conquerors who dont respect their own gods and kill women and children.

[@pokechamp3987]

Watching Troy in the cinema was something you don't forget!

[@BetterWithBob]

Very true

[@TopsideCrisis346]

... I wasn't aware we were being watched. You weren't recording, were you? It'd be problematic trying to hunt that young lady down after all these years... 😅

[@jesustovar2549]

Damn, I was born in 2004, now I wish I could have experienced it in theaters, we needed a re-release for it's 20th anniversary.

[@FaithOriginalisme]

That Kingdom of Heaven name drop.. yesss.. Kingdom of Heaven director's cut is a master piece.. it's so underrated

[@BetterWithBob]

Recently rewatched it and all I can say is my God 😃

[@FaithOriginalisme]

@@BetterWithBob Your quality will be known among your enemies, before ever you meet them. I believe Kingdom of Heaven was destroyed by the theatrical cut. That cut makes no sense. Hopefully it'll get a resurgence at some point and be reevaluatedv by the masses. God wills it

[@BetterWithBob]

I watched it after it came out and had done all this reading about it so I knew to watch the director's cut first. I didn't see the theatrical one until years later and was like "wow this is nothing"

[@FaithOriginalisme]

@@BetterWithBob I watched it in like 2007, but I was fortunate enough that the person who showed me it, showed the directors cut

[@laneneely1077]

@@BetterWithBob I always looked at 2010 Robin Hood as a sequel to Kingdom of Heaven. Kingdom ended with Richard, and Robin Hood began with Richard.

[@brachiator1]

I greatly enjoyed Troy. Even though it was not particularly faithful to the Iliad, it got the essentials right. Achilles is the greatest of warriors, and chooses fame over a long life. His prowess as a warrior, and his disdain for Agamemnon is well portrayed. And most of all, that both the Greeks and Trojans are equally heroic is well handled. Hector is as much a champion as is Achilles.

[@warmcoffee69]

A moment of silence for Hectors everywhere who had to hear their names called out in a rage fueled war cry.

[@BetterWithBob]

Ah I'm sure they all love the idea of Brad Pitt challenging them to a fight 😁

[@Jordyb33123]

You are so right on Diane’s performance. She did so much with so little that even when she is put in the femme fatale she still shows agency though all her decisions are co trolled by the male characters around her

[@Do27gg]

I just assumed this was a classic and everyone loved it

[@TreFZger]

For real haha I was devestated when I learned how many people don't like it

[@chaost4544]

The score in "Troy" is underrated.

[@gibster9624]

Pitt phoning in his performance was actually genius because it fit the character perfectly. Lmao

[@songweretson]

"There are... notes." *narrows eyes* I see what you did there, Bobby...

[@BetterWithBob]

Hopefully the "cinematic Lizzy Bennet" line got a lol as well ;)

[@songweretson]

@@BetterWithBob it did

[@BetterWithBob]

@@songweretson Mission accomplished lol

[@TCt83067695]

​@@songweretsoni dont get it. Pls explain

[@songweretson]

@@TCt83067695 “I have notes” is something I say that Bobby likes to quote

[@kitchensinkmuses4947]

I studied the Illian in Greek and the fat that Achilles has a wrestlig / mortla combat finishing move is in my opinion the very best way of showing Homeric Epithets cinematically. Gloriousy pre modern rather than post. Regarding the gods being included or not, that is a very Platonic way of thinking about them, which is also a fun choice for a classiscist. We aways forget that history has history, that the people who read Homer, were not the people that listenened to "him" compose it, and that the form we have isn't the original. We can see this most clearly in the Odyssey, where in book 21 the axes are described as "siderous" (can't do greek script here), which is often translated as grey iron, which obviously wasn't a thing when the story "happened", nor a weapon when the story was "composed". Re: Brad's interpretation - The book begins with the dedication to the muses "Rage", that explains that Achilles is the hero. That said, Hero means something quite different to us. And in fact, Hector (and his wife Andromache) are the actual heroes of this story (in post bronze age eyes, including most of who we think of as Ancient Greeks). Bana made the right choice, and that stands up next to (the on brand for achilles) Weaker performance of Pitt. "Tragedies try to avoid their endings" and despite the fact this is an Epic, Homer and his audience know that the real story of the Illiad was the death of Hector, and so, the battle scene is a perfect represntation of this

[@TheSuperappelflap]

There were iron weapons in those times, but they were extremely rare. Without the ability to refine low grade iron ore, the only source of iron that could be used to forge weapons was meteoric iron. But there are examples of such weapons from the bronze age. And myths about them.

[@thomasjermy4816]

The directors cut is even better

[@MrPokemon248]

Hector is the greatest warrior to ever live. He knew Achilles was immortal, yet to chose to stand and fight him anyways.

[@letitbe1977]

Except Achilles was not immortal.. He was just the greatest warrior ever.

[@KeyBladeMaster-Dan]

Amazing video as always Love this movie so much and I love and appreciated that section about how underrated/underappreciated Diane Kruger is she's a Queen ^__^. Also the Josh Groben song for this movie absolutely slaps 😅

[@BetterWithBob]

Love her so much in Wicker Park and Inglorious Basterds as well. Keep meaning to check out Mr Nobody too

[@samf.s.7731]

He actually sounded great

[@jsouth5577]

so glad you gave Andromache her props. Thank you for that. Saffron Burrows was amazing (I was also relieved they didn't follow the Trojan Women in her fate). She's usually overlooked in movie reviews of Troy and she was honestly the actor that sold it for me (when Hector's fighting Achilles). Eric Bana was my other love in this movie and his Hector is still a gold standard of heroes for me. The movie was so much better than people gave it credit for. Thanks for giving it the props it deserves. I also remember hoping they'd give Sean Bean his own movie but alas, not to be. Of a side note - most historians agree at this point that Troy was real, in the form of Hisarlik level VI with Hittite records to back it up. Probably minus Brad Pitt lookalikes.

[@BetterWithBob]

Ah thanks for the heads up XD

[@khatack]

Flaws? What "flaws"?? Troy's director's cut is flawless!

[@happycompy]

The soundtrack is inferior to the theatrical. Otherwise it definitely is the superior version.

[@khatack]

@@happycompy I disagree 100%, director's cut has by far the better soundtrack. Especially in the Hector vs Achilles fight, the soundtrack just dances to the beat of the fight with such grace. I never understood why some people prefer the theatrical version of the soundtrack.

[@cipangoreng]

What took me away from the fight in the Directors Cut is that I recognize the music as being the main theme from the Tim Burtons Planet of the Apes. That kinda ruins the experience for me. I would have rather they compose an original score instead.

[@khatack]

@@cipangoreng Can't argue with that. It's still a superior theme and a superior scene, but I can understand where you're coming from. Glad I never watched planet of the apes.

[@Spartan265]

I saw Troy twice in theaters with my dad. I was 11 at the time. Absolutely loved it. Still do.

[@BetterWithBob]

Ah I wish I'd seen it twice

[@DavidMyrmidon]

I didn't know Brad didn't like the Film. That's sad. Also never saw Achilles as The Main character though, always saw Hector as that. You're right about Diane as well.. she was Great as Helen.

[@BetterWithBob]

I suppose I see Achilles as the main because it opens and ends with him. Though Hector is definitely the traditional hero of the piece

[@jedirayden]

Achilles IS the main character. If he wasn't, Eric Bana would have been playing him and Brad Pitt would have been playing Hector. Eric Bana absolutely steals the show though, with a brilliant performance that you can tell he fully committed to. But the opening monologue is a perfect description of the impetus behind everything Achilles does (it describes men wanting their name to last through the ages, which is Achilles to a T) and the closing monologue, well, Achilles is literally the last spoken word in the film.

[@RedFloyd469]

You are confusing "main character" with "hero". Achilles is most definitely the main character, followed closely by Paris and Helen respectively, then Hector, then agammemnon, etc... "Main character" is not a description of their virtues or flaws, it's a description of their role in a story or generally a plot. Achilles is not the "pov" character persé, but he is the perspective we grow the most accustomed to, the character we return pretty much the most to, he has the most growth and general character conflict, etc... We get the most personal backstory with him, down to his sexlife, his relationships, his mother, the prophecy, whether or not he can die, whether or not he's a demi-god, etc... To say Troy isn't about Achilles and instead about Hector, would be absolutely delusional, and contradicted by the very run-time of the movie. Hector was definitely somewhat heroic, but heroism does not a main character make. (I would argue that there is no real way to say any character here is heroic when we are inherently dealing with nobles, kings, and the generals that serve these nobles, along with all the conscripted young men and mercenaries forced to die for the formers' vices, within a pre-feudal, tribal, authoritarian society that uses state-religion to legitimize authority. All of the people we see on screen have, directly or indirectly, blood, tyranny and exploitation on their hands. Hector was only "heroic", because he fights to protect his people from an imminent invasion. But everybody else seems to be in it for profit, "glory" and petty personal satisfaction, including Paris. There are no heroes in a world that breeds villains up to the highest and most profitable positions of power and ONLY showcases THEM as the important characters in a story.)

[@8301TheJMan]

Yeah - I absolutely adore this film. I mean it had it's flaws, but i genuinely don't think any of them were so bad that they negatively impacted my enjoyment of this movie in any meaningful way. It's cheesy and over the top sometimes, but as a whole it's phenomenal film. And even if Brad hated this role, i thought he did a damn good job with what he had to work with and there are a number of instances that were straight up impressive, like when he cried over Hector's body, or when he delivered the line after allowing Hector to escape back to the city, "It's too early in the morning for killing princes." And my god.... the duel between Achilles and Hector is legit one of the top three one s one fight scenes in film history. The only other fight on par with that one might be Paul vs Feyd in "Dune Part 2."

[@romanslav827]

Dude, excellent take. You echoed so many of my thoughts when I first watched this movie!

[@BetterWithBob]

Why thank you XD

[@mistystudent7083]

Amazing. You've managed to make me love this movie even more by displaying the dimensions of each character and actor. Thank you.

[@syd4890]

Troy was very good. Damn i was 14... time flies 😢

[@rustyshackleford5288]

Honestly, I found Brad's seemingly checked out demeanor perfect for the character of Achilles. I'd imagine a warrior who has been surrounded by death for most his life, yet knowing you'll probably never experience it yourself, would probably result in someone relatively calm and uncaring about most things we typically would care about. Even when he displays moments of anger, he still seems withdrawn from the situation he's in. Just my take though.

[@BetterWithBob]

Haha lot of people seem to feel the same

[@edwinhsu2902]

Troy worked because it was made the old fashion way; a literate script that successfully aligned all the nebulous, mythological/ historic tropes into a narrative of plausible interpretation. It was also well shot, with a photogenic cast that wasn't bogged down by consciously ironic, anachronistic dialogues, a good looking production designs & judicious used of CGI-enhancementbut that make sure the action set-pieces were spectacular but not ridiculously over-wrought. Another word, it was commercially oriented yet conscientious of the intelligence of its audience. A lost art onto its own.

[@BetterWithBob]

Well there you go

[@Andrew-xx3wo]

Back when I was a teen, it felt like this movie was always playing on some cable movie channel. Playing Rome Total War as Greece while Troy was playing in the background was some good times.

[@koffeekira]

This has been my favorite movie since I was 12 and it's the reason I even got interested in greek mythology in the first place. So many people seem to think it's a shallow blockbuster but there's so much depth to it!

[@spikesecho724]

I adore this movie ❤ always thought it was incredible Brad Pitt injured his Achilles tendon during 😂

[@BetterWithBob]

Talk about life imitating art 😂😂😂😂

[@cromcccxvi3787]

Worked for me... I watched it again about a year ago, enjoyed it again

[@emilyk4437]

Awesome video. Honestly until you mentioned Brad's less than enthusiastic attitude towards the film I would not have noticed any problems with his performance otherwise. I felt the way he delivered his lines in any scene he was in was extremely well done. Although Eric Bana as Hector is absolutely perfect, I've always felt that Brad was the standout actor in this film. All three of the main female actors did an incredible job with the material they were given, and it makes me nostalgic for these types of film where the writers were focused on making the women good characters instead of just the much more prominent archetype nowadays of the 'strong' female character who only has a few good action scenes and no personality to them whatsoever. Overall, a great analysis of the film, thanks for sharing!

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you for your thoughts :)

[@KPT437]

Love this movie!!! It works amazingly because of the actor’s charisma.

[@BetterWithBob]

One specific one or them all?

[@KPT437]

@@BetterWithBob most of them. Even though Brad Pitt is checked out, he is still likable and attractive in this movie.

[@scottwerner279]

personally, I loved how earnest it was especially compared to later movies. Everything was played seriously

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah unfortunately Joss Whedon's influence with an emphasis on bathos and 'self aware' humour still hasn't been expunged from today's movies. You can't have earnestness with self awareness. You have to take yourself seriously and be somewhat cringe at times

[@andreaslermen2008]

I loved they movie and enjoyed the extended cut. Even without his A game, Brad Pitt leaves you with the impression, that he is tired of being called up into every war, that Agamemnon starts, just to fix the kings problems. The scene, were he challenges Hector and the fight is great. Was it one of the best movies ever? No, but it was good entertainment and even with his length, the film has value to rewatch it.

[@jesustovar2549]

This is one of my Mother's favorite films, not only because she loves Brad Pitt, she loves historical dramas and epic movies like these, the cast is supberb, amazing setting, photography, score and battles, our literature/language teacher made us watch this, one of the most fun experiences, we lived it. To this day, I still enjoy this movie.

[@VersieKilgannon]

Thank you for mentioning the "straight washing" thing. I'm bisexual. But I'm up to my rolling eyeballs in the community deliberately ignoring actually LGBTQ+ subtext and characters simply because the characters they want to be LGBTQ+ aren't. Creators have more right over their creations than fans do. If you want a character to be LGBTQ+, write a fanfic. But respect the original story and let it be

[@BetterWithBob]

And like...Briseis was Achilles's lover in The Iliad as well. That's canon in every version, and he even considers her his wife. So at most he's bi

[@CM-ss5pe]

To be fair, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus has been described as homoerotic by many ancient sources, going back to the 5th century BC. This isn't a case of the fans trying to canonise their fanon ship - there's legitimate reason to show these two characters as lovers without changing their story.

[@BradLad56]

​@@CM-ss5pe was homoerotic even a word back then?

[@TCt83067695]

Write a fanfic spoke so deeply to my soul 😅

[@CM-ss5pe]

​@@BradLad56 No, but they still had words to describe same-sex male relationships, like 'erastes/eromenos'.

[@sea_triscuit7980]

This movie and Kingdom of Heaven were my two favorite movies when i was a teenager. Thank you for putting so much work into this! It really shows, great job!

[@ReviewsWithAL_]

Gonna have to watch this movie now aren’t I 😅

[@BetterWithBob]

It's an excuse to come over to Ireland so I can show it to you ^_^

[@Krommer1000]

Downloaded and stored as supplemental material for the film, and subbed. Great video!

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you very much :)

[@nicholasmaryniak3815]

You're way more apologetic in your love for this movie than am I. I hate when actors I love hate their roles I love the most, bummer on brad Pitt here. Interesting takes , thanks.

[@stayslapped1568]

I was unaware that people did not like this movie, it's my favorite

[@zainhartono7193]

Are you also going to cover the 2004 King Arthur movie? It’s a bit of a guilty pleasure if I’m being honest. Clive Owen was Arthur for most of my childhood.

[@BetterWithBob]

Yep that's next on my list lol

[@KeyBladeMaster-Dan]

@@BetterWithBob Can't wait for that it's also a guilty pleasure if mine 😅

[@BetterWithBob]

@@KeyBladeMaster-Dan I also used to know one of the cast members, so hoping to get an interview with him as well

[@audreyleist4970]

Really awesome analysis! I remember watching Troy thinking it had a classic and timeless feel to it more than many other historical movies of the 2000’s and the connection you made to the sword and sandal movies really highlights that

[@BetterWithBob]

Thanks for watching :)

[@AnzuBrief]

Where can we watch the extended version? I used to love the miniseries Helen of Troy better; but Achilles and Briseis love story always stayed close to my heart

[@BetterWithBob]

You can get it here on KZbin. I bought it recently enough

[@filipvadas7602]

The fact that we never got an Odyssey movie/series with Sean Bean as Odysseus is a *crime* It was basically *perfect casting*

[@BetterWithBob]

Yes!

[@dennisdavidov782]

I have always loved this movie, it's a shame they haven't made an Odyssey movie with Sean Bean as it could be great. I'm still baffled there was no big budget version of Odyssey for the last 30 years and the only thing we got was the 1997 miniseries (which was decent).

[@BetterWithBob]

I suppose Sean Bean might not have been considered a movie star enough to carry it, especially since it would need to be huge

[@Laurelin70]

In Italy we have a series in 8 episodes done in 1968 with Irene Papas as Penelope, produced by the RAI (Italian national TV). Very strange and fully faithful to the source material, even with some lines straight from the poem spoken by a voice-over, like a greek chorus: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3zGeWuQq9atkNksi=_x16jG1I_TN53on4

[@zshakur]

I LOVE this movie!!! The fight choreography was AMAZING!!! Solid re-telling of an old epic story!

[@BetterWithBob]

It really was!

[@aaronharkins4331]

Yes to the first part no to the last part.

[@SimonCleric]

Ngl, I don't know what I hated more - Troy or Alexander, but they both kinda blended in my mind cuz I watched them at about the same time. And even though this didn't change my mind, I still appreciate you at least separating them for me xD

[@thememedungeonkeeper]

Alexander. Hands down. As much as I dislike Troy for the "demythification" thing, Alexander is worse. Here's this legendary Greek General getting rekt and pulling wins out his arse. It's worse in Alexander because unlike Troy, it's not a fucking myth! There are LIBRARIES filled with records of his life. I HATED Alexander.

[@BetterWithBob]

I avoided Alexander like the plague, and the fact that there are four different cuts floating around suggests there's not much that can be done to change it

[@cesarlopez3517]

How could u not talk about Agamemnon, his scene where he points and laughs at Paris losing the duel lives rent free

[@ponchopalmera4917]

"It's directed by a german, for Zeus's sale". Here goes my like ❤🎉😂

[@BetterWithBob]

I've been waiting for someone to acknowledge that joke for three months now 😂

[@jesustovar2549]

​@@BetterWithBobWolfgang Petersen was still a great director, I mean, the man made Das Boot, can't believe Peter O'Toole called him a fool, classic of Peter I guess😅

[@steinstemmer8963]

@@BetterWithBob I was looking for a comment explaining the joke, because I didn`t get it I`m afraid.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@BetterWithBob I loved it. I just happened to be thinking the other day, it was about that latest episode of the boys where...things happen to Hughie, that I cant write on youtube, and americans were all up in arms about it going too far and being obscene, when it was a pretty mild scene by European standards. All I could think was, these people better never go to Berlin. Germans are nuts.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

@@steinstemmer8963 Germans are famous for their...sexual deviancy and affinity with...well things involving whips and leather and stuff like that. As well as a lot of homo-erotic stuff.

[@Ozymannaz]

Holy shit. This was a good video. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. This movie we owned on DVD, and back then only a handful of movies were available to watch on a saturday night at home, and even less so when adding into consideration a Paretto distribution of personal preference. I loved this movie. Perhaps I ought to give it another look since last time I saw it I didnt have a beard. And noting how Kingdom of Heaven is my standalone favourite film, I reckon it'd be a terrific return to the classics. No pun intended. Just.... Bravo, sir. I thoroughly enjoyed this video and had to leave a thank you note. PS: Boromir is the best character in LOTR. A man, flawed and fearful, yet always striving towards honour. Even when burdened with the weight of his errors. You earned yourself a new sub today :)

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you for your lovely comment :) There will be a Kingdom of Heaven video someday XD

[@TheKeyser94]

Wait, wait, there is still debate is the city of Troy even existed? Even that the archaeological remains of the supposed city of Troy was found more than twenty years ago and have seven layers from it foundation, I agree that the war is debatable, but the the fact that there are actual archaeological remains of the city, and have many layers of literal history, I have to disagree, back in the 90', it was a big thing that that they actually found the city of Troy.

[@TheSuperappelflap]

The issue is that we dont know for sure that that city is the same one as the city described by the ancient greeks. Its not like they dug up a signpost that said Troy on it. The location and the dating fits, but we cant be sure.

[@TheKeyser94]

@@TheSuperappelflap Yeah, that make sense, even back then the scientist didn't known what layer corresponded to the mythological city of Troy.

[@RedFloyd469]

We should also note that the supposed historic location of Troy is also situated in Turkey, a nation noted for their authoritarian regime running on state-fueled propaganda that largely uses nationalism and religion as a justification for mass exploitation. That the turkish government would openly endorse and let's not forget, FUND, any sources that claim said site as the original city of troy, is perfectly in line with their policies, and we should ALWAYS be wary of that kind of "evidence". Also keep in mind that Turkey and Greece have been in an almost constant state of war up until the late 20th century, and national and ethnical rivalries fueled by cynical elite propaganda to amass a loyal, brainless following, is very easy to establish when you have a history of national rivalries to bank on. To claim a site in Turkey as the definitive Troy is very much a tool for that purpose. Location-wise, it seems to make sense. Turkey is RELATIVELY close to greece, accessible by the mediterranean like it's described in the myths, and it has several locations along the coastline which could very well be considered major trading hubs AND strategically sound barriers that protect the land via a blockade. I am, of course, no archeology expert nor a history buff by any means, and so I'll leave the ACTUAL science to other people. I'm just saying that no concrete proof exists of Troy's existence, only plausible options. Turkey's coastline being probably the most plausible location for it.

[@WhoIsCalli]

Always loved Troy. And your points here were spot on how I felt about it. Also learnt a few new things about the production.. so thanks

[@christianwright5813]

While I don’t think this movie straight washes, it’s definitely not a case of platonic turned romantic. The debate about their relationship comes from the jump not a later edition. As a historian I think both the removal of Achilles’s Bisexuality and gay relationships in general from a culture that had quite a lot of it and the removal of mythological elements always made me dislike this movie. A lot of Greek mythology films went with this aspect and it kinda kills alot of what makes Greek myth…..myth. Like yeah the Gods make it a little strange and magical cause that’s their purpose in the stories.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

God I loved this movie. It’s the kind of movie I would have wanted to make. And it’s got so many good actors in it.

[@BetterWithBob]

Agreed!

[@Grimskarr]

I remember seeing the trailer and not liking it at all. Hollywood was doing it again - going for the supersizing, over-the-top, ridiculous dramatics.👎 Then a few years later, I actually gave the movie a chance. I was pleasantly surprised. A well told tale that succeeds in walking the tightrope between the mythical and believable in which it there were no winners - as so often is the case in life when we are drawn into conflict.👍

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah I don't bother with trailers anymore, because they either spoil everything or misrepresent it

[@music4meh]

I love it when movie analyses are over a quarter or even half of the movie's running time

[@BetterWithBob]

Thank you! That was the intent!

[@music4meh]

@@BetterWithBob it might seem sarcastic and snide, but I was being genuine. Have some time to watch it tomorrow I hope:D

[@erichmyles4481]

I was a kid, so I missed the discourse on Helen of Troy, but I can't believe people thought she wasnt pretty enough lol she's a total smoke show. I'd hate to be a woman in Hollywood tbh

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah there's a lot of schadenfreude, usually from women who were told they weren't pretty/hot too or are just insecure with it on their own, and the men who resent that beautiful women aren't interested in them, so when they get the chance to tear someone else down...

[@ageofsempires2968]

I constantly say, I would never put Troy anywhere close to any best movie list. But is still always say it is my favourite movie. My guilty pleasure

[@Nameless0061]

A good movie hated by silly reasons.

[@brendan9868]

Troy since it came out has been one of my all time favorite movies, I honestly didn’t even realize until recently that people ever had issues with it. I think it’s by far the best film we’ve gotten of the Ancient Greek world and I think they did a pretty good job of telling a more realistic and down to earth version of the Trojan war. Also in my opinion Brad Pitt not really being into the role actually works for the character. Achilles becomes progressively more fed up with the war, just like how Pitt was getting fed up with the movie. It’s like accidental method acting lol

[@rabidspatula1013]

The Director's Cut of Troy is a pretty solid film. One of my favorite historical epics of the early 2000s alongside Gladiator and Kingdom of Heaven Director's Cut.

[@TTAgostinos]

Watched it more often over the years than I can remember.

[@blitzwarzone342]

Achilles "gods envy us" speech changed my outlook on life

[@BetterWithBob]

Ooh how so?

[@blitzwarzone342]

@BetterWithBob it made me appreciate everything. Sometimes I'll just stand there and look at the sky and everything around me cuz I know I'm mortal so any day can be my last.

[@colindunnigan8621]

Speaking of visuals, for me the most powerful shot in the film is the massing of the Greek host. The build-up of tension is excellent.

[@MITAKA9]

Odysseus: "Let them say I lived in the time of Achilles" *Has a whole epic dedicated to him.*

[@BetterWithBob]

Sequel time!

[@darrenrenna]

Movie came out when I was in college, knew a couple of girls who loved Troy. Blew their minds when I showed them clips of Doctor Zhivago and pointed out that is the actress cast as Brad Pitt's mother when she was a young starlet.

[@BetterWithBob]

And have you ever seen Billy Liar? Her first film role, she has maybe ten minutes of screen time, and she instantly became a star from it

[@ech0oo197]

Just wanted something to watch while I eat. Ended up watching video instead of eating. Good work 🤟🏽

[@markowakeup]

Just subscribed. Sir, your analysis is insanely good. How can AI ever replace your In depth analysis with cross examination from cleopatra to Disney’s Hercules’s show. Bless you sir, I shall now wear my Corinthian helmet while listening to Brad Pitt yell HECTOORR

[@BetterWithBob]

That comment needs an award created just so you can win it 🤣

[@jondonom]

Still one of my favorite beach invasion battles next to D-day saving private ryan. Brad pitt / Achillies both could care less about being there but absolutely badass when fighting. And the most underrated thing about the flim is the colors and background. When you think off greek mythology its full of life and vibrant colors and i say Troy 2004 capture that perfectly and still looks great even today.

[@JeffreyDeCristofaro]

"It's directed by a German, for Zeus's sake!" 🤣 I'll give the movie this much, despite not being a big fan of it - it has the best Agamemnon thanks to Brian Cox, the best Hector thanks to Eric Bana (he left a great impression on me!), the best Odysseus thanks to Sean Bean, and the best Priam thanks to the divine Peter O'Toole! Loved Rose Byrne as Briseis as well, this film was my introduction to her! The production design and costumes were lavish, the battle of Achilles and Hector was very well staged and worthy of Homer. For better or worse, at least I remember it being one of the major films watched in theaters with my whole family when I was 18 going on 19 back in 2004... and I certainly don't hate it.

[@sorenpx]

Troy was a great film. I am proud and happy to own it on Blu-Ray. (I also own Cleopatra, by the way, and I assume that due to subsequent TV and home media sales, the film is well into the profit zone.) Like yourself, I really miss epic films like this. These are great spectacle movies and they are a perfect case of "If you make them, I will come." I still go to movies regularly and movies like this will always get my money. The grand scale, the characters, the adventure, the themes . . . I'm a total sucker for it. The Helen of Troy miniseries you mentioned looks like it might be good. I see that it is on KZbin. Now I feel like I have to give it a look. In regard to some of the other films you mentioned, I may need to give Robin Hood (2010) another look. I remember watching it and just not liking it much at all but I could see my opinion changing on a rewatch. Noah was awful though and entirely disrespectful to the the biblical narrative. Fuck that movie.

[@jedirayden]

This is literally one of my 3 favorite movies of all time. It has problems, certainly, but I love it. Edit: I wasn't praying for Hector to win. Perhaps it's because I knew the outcome, perhaps it's because the opening monologue of the film had a profound and lasting effect in how I watch the film and interpret the actions of every character... Either way, I wasn't praying for Hector to win, I was merely hoping that the fight would be epic enough to show that Hector was an incredible warrior but still somewhat outmatched by his opponent, who may or may not be a demigod. And since it is perhaps my favorite 1v1 fight in any movie, they did so masterfully.

[@valmid5069]

Greek mythology seems to be timeless with pop culture through Percy Jackson and Epic The Musical's songs

[@BetterWithBob]

It helps that it's recognisable but also public domain lol

[@vasilispapadopoulos4397]

No way you compared Iliad to Percy fucking Jackson

[@romanslav827]

I'm glad I'm not the only one whose favorite LOTR character is Boromir! Sean Bean absolutely killed it.

[@AvsegnoGrisiewky]

This movie was good. I don't know what people want from it. 3 Things stood out 1. The dialogues (though unrealistic at times, they were AWESOME) 2. Brad Pitt 3. Achilles vs Hector.

[@BetterWithBob]

Yeah they weren't going for realism with the dialogue. It was more Shakespearean or heightened