True Orthodoxy vs. Ultra Orthodoxy

True Orthodoxy vs. Ultra Orthodoxy from Shalom TV. Like this? Watch the latest episode of Shalom TV on Blip! blip.tv/shalomt...
Professor of Talmud at Bar Ilan University, Rabbi Daniel Sperber explains why Modern Orthodoxy is the "true" Orthodoxy and why the ultra-Orthodox in Israel are in violation of Jewish principles. A Shalom TV exclusive from The Jewish Center in NYC.
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[@rodolfoblasser3329]

In one sentence: Is the same difference between a fan and a stalker. Your religion doesn't define you as a person. Your religion or spiritual beliefs is a part of you.

[@sgmckinney247]

This man is talking about how I want to relate to Torah. He's awesome!!!

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

God have mercy on you.

[@Nudnik1]

Nissam Black a awesome role model a Frum orthodox Jew . I met him. Shalom

[@Nudnik1]

@@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor why you say that?

[@garyschreiber695]

Unfortunately R Sperber has distorted Haredi approach. Charedi rabbis analyze and approach modern questions using classical sources but arrive at different answers. The disputes are halachik NOT sociological Just because he feels his approaches are consistent with classical sources that doesn't mean others need agree that his "solutions" are in fact consistent with those classes sources. E.g. He notes koach D'hetera adif but ignores the classical counter principle of safek d'oraita lchumrah .

[@MrPickledede]

Gary Schreiber haredi are freeloading bigots

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

MrPickledede So says a sweaty bloated bigot himself.

[@dobishs]

How about Torah True Judaism vs modernising orthodox Judaism. Rabbi Gifter z"l said "we are not orthodox jews we are Torah Jews"

[@ul5188]

His mischaracterization of the Heter Mechira dispute can only be במזיד - purposeful. He must know that virtually everything he said about it wasn't true, and it has nothing to do with 'deciding strictly'.

[@avigarson9150]

his attack against R' Elyashiv is disgusting. Sickening and reveals the hatred he has towards the Chareidi leaders.

[@MrPickledede]

Avi Garson haredi leaders are decrepit senile racist bastards

[@MrPickledede]

Yerachmiel HaLevi you are not Jewish

[@brucelevine6517]

MrPickledede no he’s Jewish alright FYI But in truth he’s rude and disrespectful and it’s not stretch to call him a koffer and his misinformed

[@boliussa]

+Avi this guy doesn't sound like he is attacking anybody. You do though!

[@jabujolly9020]

He showed great respect for the haredi sages. Disrespecting them is turning them into gods as is done in so much if the haredi world. Even the very haredi Rabbi Alon Anava preaches vehemently against this.

[@davids2341]

Seems very interesting (I feel MO) but I need french subtitles please.

[@dobishs]

Regarding the Heating & Chairs, perhaps the source of the donation and the move chance came from people who wanted to change more than just the chair. Case and point, today they do have heating and chairs.

[@melbourneopera]

mind to validate my comments to be "shown" in your channel?

[@brucelevine6517]

No offense but I wouldn’t eat in this guys house

[@morehn]

Why?

[@jabujolly9020]

You're probably better off kashrus wise eating in his house than you are eating in many haredi households. This is a true Talmid chacham. He knows his stuff and none of the pagan influences that you get in haredi Judaism.

[@mikymanbro]

@@jabujolly9020 be quiet there are also so many charadi talmid chachamim infact most of them or stereotyped to be the best people to interpret things like gemara musser medrish just because you disagree with the charadim you still have to give them credit for being smart

[@jabujolly9020]

@@mikymanbro I never said anything against charedim. But the fact remains that theres a lot of pagan influences in their societies. Thats not always a bad thing, just as long as you're not worshipping alien gods. But it also means that charedi Judaism is sectarian and can't speak for the totality of Judaism.

[@shapiroezra]

While I agree with a great deal of this lecture, some of these views seem a bit more conservadox or conservative rather than orthodox, unless "Modern Orthodox" is something new altogether. I'm not Haredi or ultra-orthodox, but Dati Leumi, and the prospect of having women lead part of services is very problematic under the issur of Kol Isha. Koach d'Hetera Adif is thrown around a bit too much in a day and age when it's important to remember zhirut comes before zrizut. He makes a point of this when answering the question at the end about using iPhones on Shabbat when he mentions that even putting a TV on a timer is not for Shabbat, despite technically being permitted. Many issues that he's lenient on are viewed in this manner by Dati Leumi rabbis as well as by ultra-orthodox rabbis. On a separate note, hinting at the end that HaRav Eliyashiv ztz"l was a Tzaddik Ra, a bad Tzaddik, is uncalled for. He could have easily made his point without verbally attacking one of the most appreciated rabbis of the generation, especially when that rabbi is no longer alive to rebut. Having said all this, I believe Rabbi Sperber is correct that we need to not become complacent, but rather work within the confines of halacha to allow people to keep the Torah in a modern world.

[@MaryLopez-bv7ks]

Ezra Shapiro PREACH

[@stormbytes]

What about Lo Telchu B'chukos hagoyim? Or the abandonment of every concept of separation between the sexes? What about this apikores standing tall, defaming Gedolei Yisroel (including R' Moshe) as political opportunists who 'bullied' modern orthodox rabbis into complacency. Utterly laughable. This is what the Erev Rav looked like.

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

Daniel Balfour I'm studying, can you spell this "Lo Telchu B'chukos Hagoyim" in Ivrit please, and provide references for the separation bin sexes in the Torah, please please, In the process of conversion one has lost myself in the process of defining 'what brand' of judaism to 'follow', I'm about convinced that I should abandon all this. and am I hearing this correctly, is this particular individual attacking (in my understanding "Killing" by sneaky insinuation?!) a man (that person being Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv - bless his memory) who is unable to defend himself or offer clarification. A man who was ... nevermind. Just nevermind, the more I watch of these 'Modern Orthodoxy" or as the OP put it, "Conservadoxy", the further and further I get pushed into wanting to live in a Haredi community. I just do not agree with many things that I see going on and about by the secular orthodoxy here in the US and Israel.

[@mikymanbro]

Disagree and the reason i do is because your modern values and your qoute on qoute orthadox values and in fact i agree with you this man has more a conservative jewish outlook on thing at the end of the day you could be modern it just your interpretation of halacha is going to consistently evolving which i dissagree with as a charadi jew because eventually charadim wont take modern orthadox jews seriously especially when it comes to halacha because if you wanna evolve you have to remove old ravs and reshounim or just contridict itsself the rabbi here seems to have contradictory understandings like evolving but still keeping halacha classicaly so that’s my problem with this rabbi first he brings up evolution in the synagogue in then he brings hes stupid understanding of halacha and at the end of the day most people/groups interpret halacha in there on way but again I’ll say this from my prospective coming from a charadi/chasidc modern orthodoxy is slowly turing into a form of conservative judism hes view is more anti chradi

[@ul5188]

He is also misrepresenting the geirus issue. The Rambam has nothing to do with what is happening in the geirus sphere.

[@Reporterreporter770]

Is Halakha Based in Prophecy? like speaking for God or for the gods (pro- meaning for), sometimes involving predicting the future (pro- meaning before in time), often using "impending doom" and "fires of destruction" and "destruction of the world" as the culminating theme. Prophecies are usually reserved for important figures like kings and leaders and of course generally predict the downfall of bad rulers and the eventual return of "all that is Good and True" if and only if the "people" follow the right "path".

[@TheMichaeldt89]

No Halacha is law based on the rulings of the rabbis, not prophecy.

[@ul5188]

He then misquotes statements like כחא דהתירא עדיף, which has nothing to do with his position. He has misunderstood the Gemara. כחא דהתירא עדיף is a stylistic point - when two sages argue about a halachic point, the lenient one has invested more effort into his position, because otherwise he would have decided strictly. The exact opposite of what this guy is saying.

[@janebillered1893]

Its not apposite at all, its just acutely what he is saying.

[@ul5188]

@@janebillered1893 כחא דהתירא never meant that it is better to look for a Heter. He said that is the meaning, just like those who read the statement in the newspaper, without checking its source

[@janebillered1893]

כחא דהתירא עדיף as you wrote means that the one who is מתיר has invested more in his position than the אוסר. Therfore his opinion should be taken more seriously, and we should pasken like him. He uses the phrase a little differently to emphasize his point that it is required to look for a heter. The same why the חתם סופר uses the phrase חדש אסור מן התורה to build a knew meaning that "anything new" is אסור.

[@ul5188]

@@janebillered1893 No, it doesn't mean that we should pasken like him. It means that his position should be written clearer in the Beraysa. There is no such rule that we should pasken like the lenient opinion, never existed.

[@janebillered1893]

@@ul5188 this is a direct quote from wiki, on the hebrew words of כחא דהתירא עדיף: אכן, בין פוסקי ההלכה כלל זה לא מופיע כנימוק להקל, אלא כמליצה המבטאת את מגמתם להקל, מגמה שיונקת את סמכותה ממקורות אחרים . It goes on to say the halacha, that by a דרבנן you go after the מקיל, and even by a דאורייתא you follow the one who is speaking more intelligently. So here you go...

[@sebastiaosalgado1979]

I believe the great posek Rabbi Moshe Feinstein would agree with most things that Rabbi Sperber said...He was courageous in bringing up these issues happening in the orthodox community.

[@smag61306]

Rav Hershel Schachter is the main MO halachic authority. His respect for the charedi gedolim is to the highest degree possible. So to whom is he talking about??Which ‘gadol’ or ‘Rav’would think to argue on the Chazon Ish or Rav Elyashiv. To criticize Rav Elyashiv I won’t comment on although the chutzpah is startling.

[@smag61306]

@@JNNK-fs7bs Okay. And I can walk into MIT and attempt to argue Commutative Algebra Design and Analysis of Algorithms. It would not be prudent, however, because my knowledge of it is infinitesimally limited compared with theirs. The Gedoilim had an unparalleled mastery with all facets of Torah. No one else had such a grasp.

[@chodeshadar18]

The term "modern" connected to "Orthodox" is what they call in the Gemorah, a "miyut" or limitation. "I'm Orthodox, but don't worry, I'm MODERN!"

[@Nudnik1]

Maskilim

[@serdip]

Interesting lecture. He seems loathe to use the word "evolve" or its derivatives in reference to halacha.

[@MK-wv5qi]

Homosexuality bibically is forbidden and if it is done in secret than as you said he is still a Jew and who is without sin. Yet if the gay couple get married in public then this is a " min" who defies in public a torah or rabbinic law and therefore has the status of a non jew and his Bishul cooking is not kosher and his kitchen is not kosher and he is also involved in not adhering to the subscription that a orthodox Jew is one who at least keeps the the 3 defining characteristics i.e. Shabbos ,Kashruth and Taharas Hamishpacha

[@TagMahirTzedek]

riiight and the sky isn't blue.

[@morehn]

"I have a dream..."

[@topbluffa1]

you mean Palestine?

[@Nudnik1]

Is that in Quran?

[@Jmriccitelli]

Definitions are traps?….. interesting perspective….. completely disagree, but interesting

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

בְּרֹב דְּבָרִים, לֹא יֶחְדַּל-פָּשַׁע; וְחוֹשֵׂךְ שְׂפָתָיו מַשְׂכִּיל

[@psjasker]

An articulate man making an articulate argument. However, this is sophistry. This is a desparate attempt to substitute “palatable” academic babble for the true experience of G-d. The Rebbe (of blessed memory) would wipe the floor with this gentle panderer

[@84tonikk]

Ultra orthodoxes, mega orthodoxes, superduper orthodoxes....

[@dobishs]

It would seem according to him, women are a modern discovery. If you listen well, he's actually giving many of the reason what is wrong with modern orthodoxy.

[@Nudnik1]

Often many American Yidden sit in safely and comfort and criticize Yidden in eretz Yisroel.

[@middlemanscaggs]

No benches or chairs in hareidi shuls.... hahah

[@RabbiTuviaBolton]

Orthodox is a Greek word. Not relevant to Judaism. There is only one Judaism: Torah and commandments inspired by the love and fear of Gd Almighty

[@Yourname3000]

Interesting :)

[@boliussa]

this guy talks so slowly

[@jsrgev]

You can watch it at a higher speed

[@boliussa]

@@jsrgev I didn't say it made it difficult to listen to 'cos indeed one can listen at a higher speed. But it's an observation.

[@ul5188]

This man should talk less and learn more. He mentions חדש אסור מן התורה as applying during the בית המקדש. How ignorant can a person get? The חתם סופר actually quotes the entire Gemara חדש אסור מן התורה בכל מקום ובכל זמן. This just shows how little this person really knows. He reinvents history, with slight distortions all along the way, until he invents his own 'orthodoxy'.

[@ul5188]

The מהר"ם שיף was a Talmid of the חתם סופר?! What is he smoking?!

[@ozzy7912]

That's literally his entire point, and just shows how much are you're simply parroting things you're fundamentalist about. חדש אסור מן התורה, is indeed specifically about חדש, during the times of the Mikdash, in קידושין לח ע"ב, so I'm not entirely sure what you're going on about on your multiple comments on this video. I could only assume you feel the need to type so many seperate comments because your positions are not well grounded enough, leading you to become ultra-defensive about them. As far as כחה דהתירא לעדיף, which you went on about in a different comment about being a stylistic statement only - you're right; in the Gemara, that's how it's used - for the specific purpose of understanding the reasoning of the lenient opinion. You complete mischaracterized the statement though. Rashi explicitly explains in ביצה ב ע"ב that the reason for this is specifically BECAUSE, it is easier to be machmir than lenient, and therefore, if there is sufficient reasoning on the part of the lenient opinion, it is better. The only time we say otherwise is in a case of a ספק, and specifically מדאורייתא - hence, ספק דרבנן לקולא. This was the entire halachic philosophy of the Aruch Hashulchan, Rav Kook, Rav Moshe Feinstein, and Rav Ovadia Yosef. You obviously never read any of Rabbi Sperber's seforim, so you would have no idea what his reasonings are. You're just a self righteous kanai who knows how to put on a good facade. You're stuck in the exact mindset that this entire lecture lambasts and only make his point stronger.

[@ul5188]

@@ozzy7912Chodosh is forbidden at all times, not just in the times of the Beis Hamikdash. As the Gemara and Halacha tell us, and such is decided in the Shulchan Aruch. Your next paragraph is counter-logical. What does 'better' even mean? I have Sperber's Seforim. Lots of מראי מקומות, little logic. A lightweight.

[@lourak613]

He "traps" himself right at the outset when he spills the beans: "I know what modern orthodoxy is (FOR ME). Is that how a religious Jew talks? FOR ME - he has described a heretical movement. All I have heard here, is a thoroughly skewed exposition of the halachic tradition. We are being served up here nothing but a thoroughly flawed and sophomoric analysis. If his definition is good for him - mine is good for me I guess - if I play the game by his rules. On a separate note - his denigrating characterization of many of our gedolim - I must say - is disgusting. He basically says that ultra-orthodoxy is chasing its adherents away - that halacha has to evolve and adapt to modern whims. Well - it is not in the least a controversial fact that it is the modern orthodox movement, like the reform and conservative movements that is chasing away its adherents. I grew up with a Hasidic background, and I can say without a doubt, that it is only in the ultra othodox (hasidic and litvish) segment of jewry, that yiddishkeit is growing in a most vital way. Modern orthodoxy, even as expressed by key leaders with the movement, is a movement in serious trouble. Surely, thinking Jews are quite aware of what a charlatan this guy is. Shams on any university that would employ this divisive and polarizing pseudo-intellectual. I guess they were taken in by his English accent...

[@morehn]

But he has a beard

[@lourak613]

@@morehn Perhaps he thinks the beard gives him the appearance of a sage...

[@morehn]

@@lourak613 don't you?

[@zachariahkerner7896]

#ConservativeJudaism

[@ellioshiem7892]

all religions are hear say and man written.....

[@levi4663]

Sad, don’t listen to him. He should be put in Cherem. This is an example of a modern day Korach!

[@chodeshadar18]

The term "modern" connected to "Orthodox" is what they call in the Gemorah, a "miyut" or limitation. "I'm Orthodox, but don't worry, I'm MODERN!"

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

chodeshadar18 Dude, he's saying he's the incarnate of Korach. You can stop posting that in every comment that contains the word "modern". It's very botlike.

[@willbhartley]

Why not? The Israeli's were given Israel so you could have your country, it might be time to show some gratitude by offering the Palestinians their own land.

[@marchess7420]

William B Hartley - I'm sure you've heard the response. There is no historical nation known as Palestine or people known as Palestinian. "Palestinians" are essentially the same as jordanians, syrians and Lebanese. Further, a Palestinian entity was created in Gaza and it is a terror state. Further, why would you believe a state created by the plo wouldn't be a terrorist, mafia dysfunctional state?

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

William B Hartley If you ever listened to Yassar Arafat he clearly said in the 1960's it was YASSER ARAFAT THAT CREATED THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

[@bemeanerwithfeloniousdemeanor]

Yes, Arafat refered to himself in the third person saying He was responsible single handedly for creating the Palestinian Nation. (the Arabs of 1948 and their political tom-fuckery gave him the idea to establish it, knowing that all arab nations could pour wealth into it, It was Arafat that sold the idea to the Arab world.) He got the idea from Evangelical Christians Lawfirms (such as Jay Sekulow) that funnel funds to "Modern Orthodoxy", I mean Zionist. Hence the political tensions that exist now adays, cuz a whole lot of political tom fuckery going on. The fact of the matter, there were no "Palestinian people" prior to the 1960s. They were simply Arabs living in Palestine, it wasn't until the 60s when they began claiming rights to the land. People like you need to learn a few key facts before you recommend stupid shit.

[@levi7187]

Bozo

[@jabujolly9020]

I'm sorry but God wouldn't support that. Perhaps there should indeed be a Palestinian state somewhere but it cannot be located on any part of the Covenant Land. If it were up to me I might consider giving the Palestinians some part of the land but it's not up to me. It's up to God.

[@topbluffa1]

There has never been a Jewish state.. get over it . Free Palestine.,

[@axaeyexus]

Lol. Except for the kingdom of Israel, the kingdom of Judah, and the Hasmonean Kingdom, but, what's history. You know what has never been a state? An Arab "Palestine". Get over it yourself.

[@rogerlephoque3704]

Well now. If you deny Israel's historical and current statehood then you seem to be insinuating that Palestine and its Arab population must have enjoyed sovereign statehood in the past. Please let us have details of such a state. Perhaps the name of a King of Palestine, or confirmation of full status as a member of the UN and the like, will convince us to go along with what you have to say. Thank you.

[@Nudnik1]

Where in Quran or in history before 1964 or Ottoman Turkish records are the Palestinians??? Show us

[@levi7187]

Bozo