Trump's Terrible, Popular Tariffs | Reason Roundtable | February 5, 2024

[@machscga6238]

Free trade should only be for free democratic countries... not China. Dictatorships like the CCp get strengthen by free trade. Free trade is should be for Japan, Taiwan, Canada, Australia, ect, ect not Red China.

[@saints146]

Explain that to Chile and eastern Europe that lost their dictatorships with free trade

[@crown9413]

@@saints146They were making moves to make their countries more democratic Germany had free trade with Russia and it just made them energy dependent and funded oiligarchs.

[@saints146]

@crown9413 Russian is heavily tariffed and hit with penalties. They have grown stronger. US has a 0 trade policy with Cuba...Cuba's dictstorship remains strong.

[@machscga6238]

@saints146 You have it backwards Eastern Europe lost it's dictatorships because communism collapsed, due to the lack of free markets. Free trade and a moderate ammont of capitalism saved the CCP from what happened to the USSR. Chile had the hero of freedom Pinochet who gave socialist the only free ride they deserve 🚁 . Pinochet stop a communist dictatorship take over in Chile, the country was in total chaos. Allende had commie death squads going around killing farmers. And he gave himself a 20 year term. At which point he held an election like he said he would and returned the country to Democracy. He is a hero of freedom like George Washington. Who willing gave up power. 🇨🇱 🇺🇸

[@Justin_Beaver564]

BS

[@macrosense]

The U.S. was the leading proponent of these free trade deals. While people may debate the value of these, they were never unfair. They may have been bad or stupid, but they were never unfair. Americans like watching tv and staring at their smart phones: they do not like working in factories that make televisions and smart phones. Americans like buying stock in software companies.

[@pandafox12]

I work in restructuring IB and have seen / am seeinf several businesses failing because of these tariffs. The lockdowns didn't help either.

[@Foolish188]

The Jones Act. What a menace that is. Hawaii should be one of the greatest trade ports in the World, but the Jones Act prevents it. Both Hawaii and Alaska have much higher prices for everything, because of the Jones Act.

[@davidanalyst671]

The federal government is hopelessly bankrupt, and libertarians are still complaining about not enough doobies and the jones act.

[@casualobserver2997]

The fact that no major party candidates are talking about the Jones act is proof to me that none of them even want to try to understand basic economics

[@sm_1836]

What, huh? Summarized at 09:30 "Child labor is ok as long as it's not kids in the U.S. because we like cheap stuff"

[@DevonBagley]

Yeah, not exactly the best and brightest.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

I'm fine with tariffs on goods from China. I'm not okay with a tariff on everything. I'm more interested to see how our government intends to protect blatant copyright infringement coming into our country en masse through a dispersed means to fly under the radar. I'm talking about sites like Temu, not required to follow our patent laws, yet shipping in millions of small items every day. We need a tariff on all these small goods just to be able to catalog it all to reference against our patents...

[@Justin_Beaver564]

How about tariffs on no one including China?

[@brandonhoffman4712]

@@Justin_Beaver564 How about we don't support governments that can't respect international law.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

@@brandonhoffman4712 Buying and selling with someone isn't the same thing as supporting that government. Also the US government doesn't really respect human rights either.

[@samuelboucher1454]

@@Justin_Beaver564Free Trade has to be reciprocal. No trade with Commies.

[@balvsmalvs5425]

Screw China royally. @@Justin_Beaver564

[@valerieannegagnon8803]

Let's start the "end of the wear it once and throw it economy". If an iphone real cost should be $4000 a piece were we to pay chinese labor their wages...let it be this.....I was perfectly fine with my iphone 5, we know how to built cars......and if our life depends on computer chips build by child labor it is time to re_think our values🎉

[@MikkiWillis]

How long till reason begins laying off staff? I’m running out of popcorn.

[@VeniVidiVid]

Did I miss the part where presidents are allowed to unilaterally create tariffs? Or are we still pretending these have something to do with national security?

[@zyzzer]

Not nearly as bad as their unconstitutional wars. But you're right, they shouldn't be allowed to create tariffs either.

[@DevonBagley]

That's the primary role of the executive. There was a time when the federal government's sole source of income was tariffs. It was a time before we became wage slaves for the state to pay off war debts with a "temporary" direct tax.

[@VeniVidiVid]

I did some very brief research, and, while the taxing authority belongs to Congress, it looks like it delegated some of that to the executive in 1962 and 1974. Not sure that delegation is strictly constitutional, but I can’t imagine who would have standing to challenge it at SCOTUS. At the end of the day, tariffs are taxes on Americans. I think it violates the spirit of the Constitution to hand unilateral power to create taxes to the executive. The taxing power should reside in Congress. Then again, no one who can change that is going to ask me. The best I can do is bloviate about it in KZbin comments. 🙂

[@DevonBagley]

@@VeniVidiVid Tariffs are a tax on imports. As it's an indirect tax that creates a competitive price edge for American producers thus redirects demand and disproportionately targets luxuries. It's far more reasonable than a direct tax on incomes. Congress gave the Executive Branch the power to negotiate tariffs within levels pre-approved by Congress through the Reciprocal Trade Agreement Act of 1934. The later acts granted the power for the purposes of waging war, and that is more than a little stupid.

[@VeniVidiVid]

@@DevonBagley Yes, though many are confused to think that an American president can actually tax foreign citizens. And I argue that, while protective tariffs help producers in the sector compete with foreign producers, they hurt ALL consumers of that product (including any domestic sector employees who consume those domestic products). Basically, they hurt far more than they help. Seems like that may have been why mercantilism fell out of favor after the 1800s. Government micromanagement of trade always has unintended consequences. It’s a knowledge problem. But if Congress truly wanted to abolish income tax in favor of some limited set of import and excise taxes, it’d certainly be worth listening to.

[@joshuagonzalez5959]

Maybe we shouldn't depend on Chinese slave labor for all our manufacturing jobs.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Why not? The market is agnostic on where a product is made and that's the way it should be.

[@joshuagonzalez5959]

@@Justin_Beaver564 are you joking

[@Justin_Beaver564]

@@joshuagonzalez5959 no, I believe in free markets

[@imaginarymask]

@@Justin_Beaver564 free markets built on the backs of slave markets? Absolutists sure are scary

[@sanniepstein4835]

If US manufacturing is held by government (force) to standards that foreign entities are not, tariffs are a legitimate means for that same government to balance the playing field.

[@chrisyu98]

yes we can't live without a cheap plastic toy from china with your big mac.......

[@brandonhoffman4712]

I think I'm down to 3 or 4 big macs per year. Every 3 or 4 months I forget how bad the food is and have to remind myself. If Mc doogles served big macs in kids meals, I might forget how crappy the toys were too!

[@VeniVidiVid]

Yep. All toys should be more expensive.

[@Jeremyak]

another Reason nobody should take Reason seriously anymore.

[@Foolish188]

Another reason that Reason is necessary to stop idiotic ideas.

[@fredhancock7836]

Wait a minute - all the China tariffs were paid with excess dollar reserves or newly printed Yuan traded for dollars. There were no inherent increases in consumer costs here, except possibly from sucker’s deals.

[@frankbieser]

As I understand it, since the writer and actor strikes, the number of new shows ordered relative to prior years is about half. Of course, part of this has to do with how Hollywood finances movies; they borrow it. And with much higher interest rates, they're ability to raise money to fund these productions has greatly increased the risk of production.

[@Wren1]

We need to lesson our dependence on China. _You_ are the problem.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

No, the world needs to be more economically interdependent

[@Wren1]

@@Justin_Beaver564 No, the US does not need to be dependent on a communist government with a terrible human rights record that is actively trying to destroy us.

[@12345cornbread]

Hey, let’s make stuff in our own country.

[@saints146]

Let's let the market find the competitive advantage

[@Justin_Beaver564]

You realize that anything made in the US is going cost three to four times as much as the same Chinese product? When consumers understand this they'll revolt against Trump and rightly so.

[@Foolish188]

Right! We should grow our own Coffee, Tea, Bananas, and Chocolate! It might cost three times as much, but so what? The problem is that Tariffs make us poorer.

[@benjamindover4337]

​@@Justin_Beaver564The price of everything has doubled in the last 5 years. I don't see anyone revolting.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

​@@Foolish188 3x times as much... I think not. Americans do grow coffee, 100% kona is a bargain around $70/lb and can go well over $100. I recently paid 16.99 for 3lbs of Columbian Supremo from Jose's coffee @ Costco. If I paid 10x for my coffee, it would be $56/lb. Volcanica coffee's kona runs $159/lb. That's around 30x or 3,000% more for coffee made in America. Better savor that flavor...

[@Mr1Boston]

Tariffs another tax on the people.

[@user-wl2xl5hm7k]

Exactly: they’re for those unintelligent who have mercantilism brain of 500 years ago…

[@LabelsAreMeaningless]

It's one of the few that is not harmful to the people long term. It encourages more local business creating far more opportunity and self sufficiency within a country. People need to stop thinking on such a surface level. Most taxes are theft, in all forms.. this is not one of them.

[@Foolish188]

​@@LabelsAreMeaninglessTariffs ARE THE WORST TAXES! Tariffs PERMANENTLY lower the standard of living. Creating poor people. Trade Wars destroy The Wealth of Nations.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

It's only a tax on the people if it's across the board. Which is why I despise 10% across the board. 60% on China is economic warfare. Which they deserve based on how they interact with the global comunity. If companies wish to stay in China. They should prepare themselves for the war that is brewing between the two countries. As far as I'm concerned. Made in China is over. America is considering driving that fact home economically, and I support it. I think we should shut down the mass importation of small items from overseas as well. It's a huge copyright vulnerability.

[@valerieannegagnon8803]

no it's import in come that can be invested in your country

[@imaginarymask]

If we open our energy sector, it will probably counter the rise in prices from tariffs. Gas will go down so most people will be happy with that. More important than the surface level 'costs borne by the consumer' is the foundation upon which everything is built. The way things are currently operating are not optimal, and we need to restructure. Things are bound to be bumpy when making such moves, but they still need to be made, unless we just want to sit and watch our foundation wash out from under us.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

No excuse for tariffs. When the price of everything at Walmart triples in price we'll know who to blame.

[@imaginarymask]

@@Justin_Beaver564 Again, the price of stuff at wal-mart is surface level. Sure, we live in a society of morons who are more than willing to follow along social narratives of who to blame for what, but that is only useful for the officials in power that profit off of social manipulation, but it isn't constructive for the country. If you want to blame someone, blame those that outsourced so much of our manufacturing overseas to begin with.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

@@imaginarymask I agree with the outsourcing of manufacturing. It's good for the country. If you run a small business outsourcing as much of the business's responsibilities as possible is a smart thing. Trump is just Socialism light.

[@bigz5262]

Why not open the energy sector and allow free trade? Really drive down prices

[@imaginarymask]

@@bigz5262 cause it's not about prices but growing infrastructure

[@grandmo6328]

6:34 Kathleen, Your economic logic is circular nonsense.😢

[@JG-ti7id]

nice

[@valerieannegagnon8803]

44:11 no do not wear it on your sleeve.....WTF? you want actual street fights?

[@wolflarson71]

Katherine always seems so exacerbated.

[@Mr1Boston]

Babylonian debt consolidation is the snake eating itself. The system depends on debt

[@Mr1Boston]

Red team vs blue team masons favorite game.

[@alexanderx33]

Theoretical idea/question: What if voting rights were contingent on employment status? Not initerested in political feasability. What do you think the effects would be?

[@alexanderx33]

Or perhaps the obverse, receiving govenrment benefits, ie unemployment, disability, social security, medicare, food stamps, government pension, would preclude you from being able to vote until you stopped receiving them.

[@DevonBagley]

It's been done. At one time you had to be a land owner to vote. It just creates other problems because people only vote in their own best interest, and it encourages employers to employ fewer people that might vote against corporate interests. It's just a bad idea.

[@benjamindover4337]

The elderly would stop receiving social security with the financial burden shifting onto their families. Self employed people would form a separate nation, with no reason to cooperate with the state that disenfranchised them. The government would ramp up taxes to expand the military to defend against the rebels. And then it would all collapse into apocalyptic anarchy. Are you happy now?

[@alexanderx33]

@@DevonBagley The first point there is a feature not a bug. IE voting in the interest of the employed is exactly why it would be preferable since it prevents a wellfare feedback loop. But the second point is interesting. Hard to imagine it being that significant of a factor only because the quality of the hire has a MUCH greater marginal effect on the employers bottom line than their voting power does, due to the size difference of the affiliate groups.

[@alexanderx33]

@@benjamindover4337 Firstly, you didn't read the other alternative (first reply) this would accomplish much the same end goal without the information problem of needing to define someone as employed or not. Though doing that for the self employed isn't the real logical issue here, there is a greater problem of people who are not employed yet still productive (think housewives). And secondly, do you really think that employed people (40yo+) who have been paying into it are going to vote away social security?

[@321JackSnack]

Based on levels of waste, number of storage units, second hand stores, why not pump the breaks on searching the world for the next human to exploit for labor? ‘How’s it made’ shouldn’t just be an engineering show. ‘It’s a better world when you can buy lots of stuff’. Oh is it?

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Yes it is better when you can buy lots of stuff, it absolutely is

[@brandonhoffman4712]

You know how much different stuff is just inside your cellphone. Which operates on a cellular network, with cellular towers. You know how much different stuff is in a cell tower? Which operates on a power grid, with power plants. You know how much stuff is in a power plant? Which operates on all kinds of stuff. At this point we're going down a rabbit hole on all the stuff we need and that's just so I can type out all this stuff. So ya, we need to be able to buy stuff. Lots and lots of stuff. We need to buy more stuff just to keep all this stuff going... Rome wasn't built in a day, and it had to buy a lot of stuff to get there.

[@HiwasseeRiver]

If we are going to have tariffs how about indexing the rate to the Federal debt such that increased debt painfully taxes the people in real time. I'd pick an index of 1% per Trillion$. 34% aught to provide enough tough love to align everyone to drive the rate to less than 1%.

[@DanailGospodinov]

I get it, Trump might not be the best option for the economic development, but he is way ahead from Biden in establishing a political stability which i think should be valued more these days.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Why are you here?

[@luvyatubers]

I think the tyrants musical POTUS chair must end. But sheeple like the show They only care to fool us

[@casualobserver2997]

Problem is I think Trumps brand of victombood politics is just as toxic as the left version. Tell me about what you are going to actually get done and how, and show me how that aligns with economic realities.

[@casualobserver2997]

@clintonmccool2330 What an intelligent response. I am not even going to bother because you clearly aren't paying attention.

[@sanniepstein4835]

@@casualobserver2997 Democrats are now openly corrupt, treasonous, and tyrannical. Any alternative is not just an improvement, it is necessary.

[@mjpich]

i think the Hugo affair is instructive for political mass media. another engaging production.

[@99guspuppet8]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤ to worry about economic conditions is soul crushing ……….. little people are helpless against the mega-rich ……… and let’s all go to Sugar rock Candy Mountain

[@damonbehnke5817]

I dont trust this channel

[@AkhtarSharmeen-qe3vy]

❤😊❤😊❤❤😮❤😮❤😮❤❤

[@user-wl2xl5hm7k]

We must always vote against (& less authoritarian than) both the Democratic *and* Republican Parties- including Trump, Vivek Ramaswamy, Rand Paul (He’s _no_ Ron Paul), and all other Republicans. For _all_ public positions. And this same strategy applies against the two-party monopolies in _all_ countries worldwide. Real libertarians will never be Republicans or Republican loyalists. You can always write-in an anti-authoritarian person if no candidates for a position fit that bill. This will continuously reduce the power of _both_ authoritarian parties in the two-party monopolies. Until our task is complete. Repeat strategy for all new authoritarian parties that emerge.

[@imaginarymask]

'We must' is not anti-authoritarian. 'Until your task is complete'- or more likely, until you become exactly what you opposed.

[@user-wl2xl5hm7k]

@@imaginarymask You misread my comment. Re-read it carefully. Ask a friend to help you if you don’t fully understand all the statements. Godspeed.

[@imaginarymask]

@@user-wl2xl5hm7k hahaha nah, you misunderstood what words you were using. It's ok, you can get grade school textbooks online nowadays, you should get some and do a review. Furthermore, I quoted you exactly, how could you interpret that as a misreading? The truth is, you didn't like the implication of my critique, so you deflected responsibility back at me, because you can't believe that you could ever be wrong-you reek of such snobbish elitism that it is no wonder that societies sometimes get fed up and drag 'your types' out into certain fields.

[@Justin_Beaver564]

we need instant run-off voting

[@condordm]

I call this video, these people, a soft push towards communism.

[@pwhqngl0evzeg7z37]

Is this your first time using the English language?

[@condordm]

@@pwhqngl0evzeg7z37 Hush puppy.

[@brandonhoffman4712]

How is it that Republicans are becoming socialist? I would love to see that trail of facts. The democratic party leans closer to socialism. I'll even give the fact as to why, it's things like welfare. Now I'm not going to sit here like some nut job and call members of either American political party a "soft push towards communism" that's a hard push on political rhetoric...

[@Justin_Beaver564]

Seriously wtf? So Reason's free market liberalism is communism but Trump's economic micromanagement isn't? Got it!