Tungsten vs Bismuth vs Steel

If you are giving up lead, the three contenders for your shotshells are steel, tungsten and bismuth. All these materials have their advantages and disadvantages. If you are giving up plastic wads or 'cups', you can only use bismuth. Both tungsten and steel are delivered in plastic cups. There are other disadvantages, too, including the price. Haggis Hartman of West Country Guns says FOB Vario Tungsten cartridges cost £2.70 each.
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[@traviscochran6280]

I have had to use steel at many of the places I shoot for several years. The rule of thumb is to use 2 sizes larger then you would lead. If you normally would shoot #6 you go with #4. You will lose a little range. You have to shoot with a more open choke. The plastic wads used in steel shot are better then the ones we had 30 years ago, but i still would be concerned with older guns, and guns with softer or thinner barrels. Steel shoots different then lead. Steel shot starts out faster and slows down quicker. This will effect how much you need to lead the target. Also wind can effect the pattern more. There is a learning curve switching to steel. I have tried some of the tungsten. It holds a pattern well and keeps velocity. It will readily deal with long range birds. And it's very expensive. This season I am using bismuth with my small bore guns and muzzleloaders. Steel is not an option for the .410 or 28 bore guns, just not a large enough load of shot. Black powder doesn't give the velocity steel needs. I have shot doves and teal (small ducks) with bismuth and it works well. Better then steel, not as good as lead. If you shoot #6 lead try #5 bismuth.

[@mallardcutter7209]

If you have to shoot steel in the future then I suppose a “ high “ bird will be 35 yards. LOL

[@leeturner6055]

Very good and informative. Thanks FSC. Are you planning on doing any real world shooting comparisons? Maybe a blind test, lead vs steel. Would be interested to see what someone like Andy Crow would make of the difference between the two on a pigeon day? Would he notice a difference, could he identify which was which, would he have a favourite?

[@thetruthserum2816]

How about a Bioplastic wad / shot cup made of biodegradable corn plastic? Hulls from corn plastic and steel, bismuth, or tungsten. Non lead primers

[@wemcal]

Great video and information

[@flairball]

Bit of an unfair assessment of bismuth. Bismuth shot has been alloyed with tin for some years now making it much less brittle. If smashed with a hammer, or shot at a steel plate or brick wall it will fracture, but it no longer fractures when hitting soft tissue. It’s only marginally less dense that lead, and I’ve seen no difference in performance between bismuth and lead. Being soft it can be loaded over a fibre wad, and it can be bought in bulk, so hand loading can save some money.

[@BornGaming32]

What about pure copper shot? Rottweil offers their Copper Unlimited shotshells. I've been hoping Barnes would join them and add copper shotgun ammo to their copper rifle ammo.

[@skipmole612]

Lots of suggestions for copper shot, but copper is poisonous so no different to lead. Going on scrap prices, copper is 4 times the value of lead, so it might be costly, too.

[@aldrikdijksterhuis6684]

Here in the Netherlands lead shot was banned in 1998. Since then we have to use other products, the most of us use steel shot, and it wil do just fine. But you have to know the limmits! max 40m (44yards). The shells i use the most are 32gr n.4 from rottweil, foxes, hares, crows, geese and ducks it will do just fine.

[@RockBandEclipse]

Can't they make shot from tin and copper like lead free solder or is there a reason it wouldn't work?

[@salopsniper22]

For me this further proves nothing else will match lead, any other substitute is just lacking.

[@havokwonder1212]

The closest thing I've shot to lead is TSS ammo. But overall lead wins supreme!

[@havokwonder1212]

@walker jfs its not worth the health issues. Lead can be nasty stuff. That's why all over the world shot shells are switching over to non toxic only. I support that movement. Its just a new learning a process trying to shoot steel or bismuth or tungsten.

[@joshuawalk4749]

Ok ok lead shot has been used for over a hundred years and too this day more people die from skin cancer then from one extra extra un- ordinary case of a person dying of some extra Advent case of linking a lead slug or bb to their death to this day I disagree with required use of steel shot on ducks I can see when hunting over a spread of water using decoys or even jump shooting where 95% of your shots will hit water yes ok steel may be safer but when jump shooting dicthes and out in feildsy miles away from water I know for a fact steel is by far worse a wound is a wound does it matter for the animal what made the wound no it does not a would in the animal kingdom is certain death now ask yourself is it better to wound more animals by using ammo that take being no more then 30 yards for a clean kill and people who don't have the money to pay for extra Advent hunts getting 30 yards to geese is hard for a hunter that fights other hunters in public land or giving yourself and extra 30 yards on top of that for a clean kill instead of wounding a bird with steel for a slow miserable death this is just another example of how the are taking are right to hunt little by little law by law agreeing to any of this is excepting the fact of the beginning of our gun rights being taken stop being a tool and buying into their statistics and use your own

[@tungstenman2822]

@@havokwonder1212 Due to the cost of tungsten will higher then lead , there are still using lead. lead shot ,lead fishing weights

[@rabidninja7158]

@Kevin the Duck I think the data is exaggerated. Im ok with hunting with lead...but lead shouldnt be banned. its cheap and perfect for the range because its cheap. All the lead can be captured with a trap or a dirt pile back stop. precisely how we do it here at the ranges. Traps can be emptied every day.....dirt can be dozed and replaced every so often to reclaim the lead.

[@tjjohnson4848]

Wow, you Brits do GREAT ammo reviews. Highly intelligent and scientific, thorough, practical. May you live long and prosper (and not be overrun by non-Brit immigrants)!

[@michaelgammon]

Will this apply to clay shooting as well? When is the steel shot coming in?

[@colt10mmsecurity68]

I like my shot shells made from Cadmium, mercury and depleted uranium. Is that bad?

[@manofkentcatapultsgunsando5069]

Cant beat a it of lead boi

[@James28R]

Thanks for the good video. Always funny how these so called environmentally friendly alternatives aren’t really, when you consider they have to ship the tungsten around the world twice to actually get to your gun.

[@thetruthserum2816]

Toxic = builds up in food an water supply, so it does matter when multiplied by tons... Birds think pellets look like candy, so Pb is not ideal for bird hunts, so its outlawed in US for migratory bird hunting for a long time now... 🦆🍬

[@thetruthserum2816]

lol, eat a bird that eats lead pellets cause it thinks they look like bird food...

[@steveyd101]

I really do wonder what the difference in plastic pollution and wound/loss of ducks and birds that were hit by steel versus lead? In the states, I duck hunt with some old guys that remember when it was legal to use lead. They tell us that it seems like it takes twice as many shots to take down half the amount of ducks. With steel, you need to use bigger shot to get the energy, but now you have half the amount of shot per shell. This decreases the chance of a pellet hitting the vital areas of a bird. I can't count how many times I've knocked a duck out of the air and then had to use 2 or 3 shells to finish it on the water.

[@jeffpeterson2838]

Lead worked great.6 shot on ducks and getting doubles was very common, even for an average shooter;crumbled at 40.

[@JMc.D]

Bet that defender was a pile of red dust the following morning having been in the sea.

[@colinjohnston5465]

We were talking about shooting pigeons and crows the other day. I used to get cartridges from the farmer and the shooting rights on his and his brother's farms (leave the partridge!) for shooting his pigeons and crows. Fantastic for ducks and geese too.

[@CINsyg]

Steel shoot works great, you will not have any problems with it, just have to avoid high birds

[@eduffy4937]

.410 2.5" loaded with 3/8- 1/2oz of 18g/cc#9.5 tungsten is all a guy needs for ducks and geese out to 45yards all day long. I will never have a need for a 28ga, 20ga, 16ga, or 12ga for birds ever again.

[@gergodrabik6208]

What about copper? It is dense more dense than steel and probably stil cheaper than bismuth and tungsten...

[@waliza001]

how about copper shot?

[@nukeman360]

paper and steel?

[@AW-hg3pc]

the bioammo blue seems to be the ticket at the moment at least for me, performs well enough, its friendly to my wallet at about 0.80 per shell(no issue for a hunter id say) and its friendly to older full choke guns that dont apreciate steel.

[@StarFox31]

Are you in the U.S.? If so where are you buying it from? Every website I pull up for this is European.

[@bradclem6226]

Bismuth is the best that I have used on Turkey. Remington 1100 modified choke at 35 yards drops them dead n the head without even a flop.⚡️#4 shot

[@BAMBI243]

If I reload my empty cases can I reclaim single use plastic tax back?

[@frwystr]

i love the concept of pouring shot into water being patented

[@dave_724]

There’s nothing wrong with steel I’ve been using 32g 4s since lockdown for vermin control and it’s doing a better job then say a 32g 6 lead

[@rabidninja7158]

yeah...I swapped from #6 lead to #4 steel for hunting squirrel a few years ago. No problems at all. They all end up with at least 5 pellets in them at a decently long range....more if Im closer. Dead on impact pretty much every time.

[@frechwieoskar8052]

@@rabidninja7158 but what about Waterfowl? Does it work?

[@colinjohnston5465]

NASA Mars rover coming to a shoot near Exmoor next season as the gun bus.... Good to hear that Tungsten performs really well but at £3 per pop that's more than prohibitive. I thought Thorkild Ellerbaek's comments interesting but don't know how relevant they are when compared to driven shooting in the UK. Last time I was in Denmark it seemed quite flat so the birds would, I guess be low. Thorkild's chum shoots almost 1,000 shells in a season. I think that some of Charlie's neighbouring shoots will have guns that fire that between them on a couple of drives. Lionel's input was much more worthwhile.

[@eller728]

I don't know which part of Denmark Colin visited... But it is true we don't shoot the high birds as you do. We have a ethical, voluntary restriction of about 40 meters for bird shooting. It is very convenient for steel and at pheasant shoots we generally have a ratio of 3-4:1 pr bird - and that is dead birds...

[@colinjohnston5465]

@@eller728 Esberg, through the country to Roskilde, Copenhagen and back. I dont know the sporting heritage in Denmark, do you have large driven game days equivalent to those we have in the Downs, Yorkshire, Scotland, Wales and Exmoor? I think the issue we have is not just steel but steel plus single use plastic in one hit. Thanks for getting back to me.

[@eller728]

@@colinjohnston5465 We don't have the same amount of driven shooting and very few with the bags I see in your country. And we have been proactive on the plastic wads and are working together with the government to implement bio degradeable wads as soon as possible.

[@colinjohnston5465]

@@eller728 Again, all of which reinforces my point. The 2 are not analogous and to use stell we require long plastic cups which are not biodegradable and currently available. Thanks for constructively engaging in conversation.

[@eller728]

@@colinjohnston5465 I shoot Gamebore Vintage Cartridges (that's what they are named here) 28 grams, 67 mm. with steel shot no. 4 og 5. And the wads are paper. Try if you can find them in UK, but I doubt. We will have to use degradeable wads all over in the near future.

[@markrobinson9659]

In this day and age cant we make a lead substitute ?

[@leeturner6055]

John P we put a radio controlled car called rover on Mars on 2012.... I vote yes

[@leeturner6055]

John P this isn’t about placating anti shooting hordes. This is about being better and more responsible in what we do.

[@leeturner6055]

John P why is lead so precious to you? Can you explain why you cannot shoot steel instead? What are your issues? Also, the idea of giving up ground only stands if you believe that this is being forced on us by a 3rd party, and, that is something that we don’t want it and is not in our interests.

[@leeturner6055]

John P 1. Steel carries more than enough energy you will run out of pattern before you run out of shot energy. 2. It doesn’t damage the vast majority of barrels. Maybe some older barrels or ones with fixed chokes but these are the minority of guns in the field not the majority. New guns will all take it so this won’t be a problem for long. 3. What do you mean by Government enforced ban? I’m confused by this comment.

[@leeturner6055]

John P it may not carry as much energy as lead but if it still carries enough to kill then how much more dead do you need a bird to be? Re barrel wear, do you know how many lead shots vs steel shots it takes to wear out a barrel? Does anyone? Yes steel may wear more than lead but if it takes way more shots than anyone ever will put through a barrel then it’s a moot point. I have never heard anyone say ‘oh I shot too much steel a ducks this season and have worn out my barrel’ Re gov regulation, we see things differently. To me not doing something that is good for the environment because of fear of the government is a lose lose situation.

[@a.s.j.g6229]

Could they use bronze/brass/copper

[@pseudopetrus]

They are light. We use (some) solid copper here in North America in rifle cartridges and it shoots well. But for the bullet size they are lighter than lead with copper jackets.

[@gusgould4420]

Like the other bloke said they’re too light and haven’t enough density, there wouldn’t be enough compression on the gun powder for it to fully burn

[@a.s.j.g6229]

Okay, thank you.

[@tyladube801]

Copper has been used brass as well but idk about bronze haven't heard of or seen anyone using bronze as a projectile for shooting

[@clintwalker5804]

I’ll take the rover any day. Proven.

[@kierancherry9954]

question for people out there why don't we use bronze as it is soft and steel

[@napalmhotdog4365]

Kieran Cherry it’s an alloy so it requires more manufacture thus more expensive

[@kierancherry9954]

@@napalmhotdog4365 ok but so is steel its an alloy of iron and carbon

[@Nocturnalzyx]

@@kierancherry9954 I think steel is much common because of its broader applications and thus easier to manufacture, probably easier to make and possibly cheaper,.

[@jmdv1887]

Maybe its elements aren't in a chinese mine... Open your eyes: the politicians take their decisions based on China's economy. I can see it every day in my country (Argentina).

[@robertunderdunkterwilliger2290]

It an environmental poison!

[@richardharris5083]

Not sure i would want to be eating anything shot with Bismuth if it shatters like that .

[@Nocturnalzyx]

relatively non-toxic. Steel would be best overall I think

[@tyladube801]

Yea that's why you just use it for home defense

[@union310]

@@tyladube801 do you use many for home defence then?

[@williamnixon3994]

"We don't have a satisfactory, cost-effective wad to use with steel (Shot)" ...Cardboard? Or paperboard or whatever you wanna call it. It's still one-shot, but you're going from HDPE to (effectively) wood fibers and glue

[@thetruthserum2816]

back to old school... how about biodegradable corn plastic?

[@flairball]

@@thetruthserum2816, I’m pretty sure the bio plastic doesn’t degrade fast enough so the sheep and cows still end up eating them. Livestock issues was a really big part of the push towards fibre wads.

[@josephtufts7649]

You left out copper plated bismuth

[@axelsprangare2579]

You forgot one! Copper!

[@davidmccarterdm]

In my part of the US I shoot what the hell I want as long as it isn't at ducks or geese.

[@huckstirred7112]

But they are going to try really hard to change that

[@union310]

Attitudes that like of Richard Atkins here would be the end of the sport, he sees no method of going forwards. He only speaks of problems, no solutions. listening to him was depressing.

[@drewsmith6066]

So a fixed full and half choke gun that is not proofed for steel shot will be no good come 2024 ???

[@mrsmith9079]

The quality of that bismuth shot is atrocious - look how deformed most of the pellets are. I would expect substantially better quality for ammunition that's nearly 2 quid per cartridge.

[@tonyashton780]

Not doing us any favours here!, lead kills cleanly end of if you don't want it in Pheasants make the game shooters pay NOT EVERYONE ELSE.

[@colinjohnston5465]

Only game shooters are going to pay. Clay shooting has not volunteered to get involved because they don't pollute, presumably but definitely no one eats clay saucers,

[@tonyashton780]

@@colinjohnston5465 I was thinking of Woodpigeon, Rabbit and Grey Squirrel which I supplement my meagre finances. Never had any issues been eating lead shot meat since I was 10+ I'm in my 50,s I'm sure I'm not on my own.

[@colinjohnston5465]

Understood, I'm same as you apart from havent tried squirrels. I class pigeon as game because they're such sporting birds.

[@tonyashton780]

@@colinjohnston5465 finest sport on wings and a good service to the farmer in their shooting. You should try Squirrel really nice meat for bbq or hot pots. Just treat it like rabbit including emptying bladder as they can taint. Regards Tony

[@Thmz2006]

Glancing over the comments section, it looks like nobody listened to the danish guy. Here in DK, we have had a ban on lead in shotgun shells for the past 25 yrs or so. People, it works! Reduce the bore, adjust a bit on grams of powder and most guns are fine. I am sure I will get a beating but nevertheless, from a fellow huntsman: There are more crucial battles out there, dont take this too far. It leads astray from other more important areas.

[@robertunderdunkterwilliger2290]

Reduce the bore!?

[@tonylipton4068]

Thank you for your sharing, highly appreciated.👍 But ha ha ha 😀, it’s seemed like to watch a drama only. If someone has those many guns and cartridges what you showed in video in our Asia countries / areas, must be put in jail for many years, even more than 100 years or shot to death by government.☠️😲

[@huckstirred7112]

a government should fear the people4 . The people shouldn't fear the government . We like our guns and freedoms here in the US

[@richardjones2811]

This is the least of the worries. What about when the oil deposits run out in 30 years and there's no fuel alternative for engines?! This is the real reason they want plastic banned because crude oil is used to make plastic and we're consuming it at an alarming rate. Show a picture of a turtle eating plastic to win the hearts of the people haha, works on most but some realise the propoganda.

[@joshuawalk4749]

Fuck that you don't need an engine to survive but you do need a gun or bow those 2 tools actually can will and do put food in the table the only way a engine can without a doubt hesitation debat or doubt is if a deer jumps in front of it if you wiegh out fact from fiction engine =luxery gun/bow=survival

[@whocares4583]

Plastic is bad tho

[@richardjones2811]

@@whocares4583 Have you ever thought how convenient we're being programmed to embrace electric cars, all at the same time we're being told to use less plastic? It's because oil is running dry. Why are governments honest with us about this? Because it will cause panic and mayhem.

[@justinolinger1208]

tungsten being depleted uranium is extremley radio active so yes its very enviormentally fatal

[@Nocturnalzyx]

Guns still exist in Britain?

[@snook1249]

Yep, lots and lots of them 😎 don't believe the myth.

[@mchughcb]

Tungsten shot comes out of china, so there is definitely a market if the mine is reopened assuming all the "green" regulations and local "community" and politicians allow it.

[@tonylipton4068]

Does China allowed their self people to buy guns and cartridges for shooting, hunting and self defense in their country now? The most of Asia countries produced a lot of utilities for shooting and hunting, such as guns, cartridges, decoys,...whatever are sold to other countries to earn money. In Asia areas, many countries / government don’t like people own gun, owning guns for shooting, hunting and self defense are strict restricted. Some governments showed laws seemed can apply to buy guns nominally, but nobody is allowed actually. Some countries declared democracy, freedom and human right, but rulers always want to keep ruling power at all, not really as they expressed, something is cheating people in the world.

[@tungstenman2822]

@@tonylipton4068 i am Chinese , we also produce tungsten shots for sale , i didn't agree with you

[@beateljuice1]

It just looks like they are making the sport to expensive for the working class to afford.