Turkish Pattern 1938 Ankara 1941 GEW1888 rework

[@AJCzarkowski]

That's a really great example you have there! Very cool that the headspace happened to be perfect and the bore is barely used! As you probably well know, for such an old rifle, that's a rarity. One point to make about the notch in the receiver - if you put a piece of tape over that notch, you will see the S ammo still clears the front of the receiver. The cutout was actually for the longer P88/M88 ammo in case it needed to be loaded with stripper clips (even though the sights would be off). The S cartridge bullet is wider (.321 for light ball, .323 for heavy ball vs .318 for P88), but the P88 ammo is longer!

[@RockIsland1913]

Remember when these rifles were under a hundred bucks? I bought ten or twelve of them not counting commission rifles. Only one of them failed even the field gauge no matter what bolt body swap I tried. I held on to them all and acquired a short version a little later on that actually has a matching bolt. I have a wide variety of 7.92mm ammo for these, everything from 1930's German to 60's era Romanian, and of course modern commercial rounds. I bought the Turk ammo when it was 2.3 cents a round in bulk something like 25 years go. I still have two 30mm Navy rocket Box's full of it on the clip. Most of it the 1930's dated stuff with the real nice multi piece brass strippers. These rifles were always good shooters even with me behind the trigger, these days physical limitations mean I don't shoot them much. Sucks getting old but the alternative is far worse. I miss the happy time when so many milsurps were plentiful and cheap.

[@AJCzarkowski]

@@RockIsland1913 That is so cool! I was born in 1997, so while I do remember a lot of these old military surplus rifles going for somewhere between $100-$200 (and many were in good shape I might add), unfortunately I was too young at the time to buy them! I have to say that's fantastic that out of 10 or twelve only one had bad headspace to the point it couldn't be fixed with another bolt. I find the ammo almost as interesting as the rifles themselves, especially with 7.92 being so widespread around the world. Do you find any particular 7.92x57 types work better in the old Turkish rifles? I've only ever tested out the 154/155g light ball (both Turkish and Romanian). I figured that's the type they would have been using back in the day and thus that would be what the sights would've been set for. I'd love to get a hold of some 1930's Turkish surplus myself, I have a bandoleer or two of it, but the vast majority of the Turkish ammo I have is 1940's or early 50's dated.

[@ramiroisram]

I have one too, 1938 year, beautiful clear barely used rifling and bore, awesome

[@YoushouldloveyourselfNOW1738]

Great video! I just bought one of these without knowing the full history of it, just to be utterly confused by what i can and cannot shoot through this rifle. I did what forums said and slugged my bore which came out to .323 (calipers also said .324?), but still see i can't shoot surplus or real modern ammo. I dont handload ammo as i dont have the knowledge or tools for such, so I'm hoping you might know what it can safely shoot? I currently only have Sellier and Bellot Czech soft point ammo at 197 grains, is that too much for this old gun? Or should i just use PPU underloaded ammo? I don't see many American Comercial ammo for 8mm anywhere, but i did read that Romanian 8mm should be safe for it as its a milder shooting surplus round. I just dont want this to be a bad investment 😭 Thank you for reading this if you're still on here.

[@RockIsland1913]

Still around, I shot a lot of surplus in my rifle with no issues. I would suggest avoiding the Turk ammo as it is known to be a bit on the hot side. Most or all of the other surplus I had back in the day is not available anymore leaving handloads or commercial loads the only option. Commercial ammo manufacturers load their 8mm Mauser rounds for these rifles, this is the sort of rifle they are afraid you will shoot their ammo in that could have problems. Because of this they will not load on the hot side as would be fine for the 1898 Mauser made by many countries, or commercial sporters. They load for the weakest link, but that's OK, helps keep you safe, and what they load will get the job done if your killing paper, or deer. Check the headspace before you fire it, or have it checked by a gunsmith, these rifles are notorious for failing the No/Go and often the field gauge test. If it fails then retire it to the wall. Sometimes swapping in another bolt will bring the headspace into spec, but that's more often on the Mauser action. Rimless rounds are not nearly as forgiving of bad headspace as rimmed rounds are like the 7.62x54r in the Mosin. Check it even if you have to buy the gauges from Midway, or Brownells and do it yourself.There is some risk shooting these actions, age, design, condition, but that is so for any surplus weapon, shooting one of these with bad headspace is close to suicidal.

[@marckcarbonelloifveteran410]

This rifle was rebuilt in 1941 in which was adapted to shoot 8 mm. You can tell by the wage cut off the top of the receiver to accept the bigger 8 mm round.

[@RockIsland1913]

Yes, they will all have that half moon cutout in the receiver ring until they started using full length GEW98 receivers, and later Turkish made 1898 receivers. All of these rifles were made to a similar pattern no matter what receiver they used. The stock configuration, barrels, chambering, as much as possible they wanted uniformity in looks. Some of these rifles were made using Lebel, Mosin, and Enfield receivers. These are rare, but a blast to see when they show up.

[@marckcarbonelloifveteran410]

RockIsland1913 The question is why do some people underestimate them?

[@RockIsland1913]

Probably because they haven't been shot by a bullet fired out of one of them, not yet anyway. Commission 1888 receivers aren't as strong as Mauser GEW 1898's, few rifles are, but you don't hear of these rifles failing in the field despite having been used during the Great War. The 1888 receiver doesn't lend itself well for magnum sporting rifle builds like the GEW98 receiver does. This is not what the 1888 was designed for anyway, as a weapon of war it did just fine.

[@agoogleaccount2861]

These shoot great with lead handloads. At around 2000 fps Incredible accuracy

[@RockIsland1913]

One point about the ring cutout I failed to explain that it's to allow the spitzer style pointed bullet to clear into the magazine, it has nothing to do with bullet diameter. The old .318 rounds did not use pointy spitzer bullets.

[@mikhailkalashnikov4599]

I came across a rifle (real cheap) identical to the one in this video but mine is stamped 1937. I saw the surplus ammo next to yours that you referred to a few times so I'm a little confused: can I fire the mil 8mm surplus (Yugo) in the Turkish rework 1937 or no? (And thanks for the good video and info, BTW).

[@RockIsland1913]

This is a fully reworked 88, new barrel, stock, but the action remains the Commission 88, not the Mauser 98. The Mauser 98 is a strong action, the 88 was an experimental rifle with experimental ammunition. People do fire these with surplus ammunition, and I have not heard of any blowing up from it IF THEY PASS THE NO/GO HEADSPACE GAUGE, and they have the replacement Turkish barrel . The Turkish barrel is chambered for the larger .323 7.92mm bullet, the originals used the .318 and it's often questionable if anything was done to open them up a bit other than stamp an S on it to say they should be safe with it. With the Turk barrel there is no question that it is chambered for modern 7.92mm Mauser ( 8mm Mauser) headspace is critical when dealing with rimless rounds like this, you do not have the safety cushion rimmed rounds like the Mosin uses. It must pass the headspace test or do not fire it. I would avoid the Turkish ammunition despite the fact that it's all these rifles would have gotten while in Turkish service. The Turk round is known to be a bit on the hot side, the Yugo is what I use. I am not advocating that anyone fire these rifles, I am just saying what I do. Firing any antique rifle has inherent risks, these risks may be slightly higher for rifles like these 88's reworked or not, they simply do not have as strong an action as the small, or large ring Mausers that replaced them in service. I fire mine once in awhile, twenty rounds here and there, I don't make a habit of it, not when I have many Mauser 98 type rifles and an SAFN 49, as well as a Hakim that I can shoot 7.92mm in.

[@mikhailkalashnikov4599]

@@RockIsland1913 Thank you sir. I will keep all of that in mind. I've been looking at various information online to decipher what exactly I had and what I saw on your video is exactly like mine (Ankara 1937, the welded part in front of the receiver for the new wooden handguard, bayonet lug underneath, no barrel shroud,etc) . Mine has a .323 stamp on the underside of the box magazine just behind the front screw also. I have an M48 that I want to shoot and I saw some Yugo surplus 8mm for sale recently so I thought maybe I would shoot a couple of rounds from the reworked Turk gun for fun. Maybe I'll get a couple boxes of commercial ammo just to be safe. Thanks again.

[@agoogleaccount2861]

really shouldn't shoot surplus ammo in one of these because of the 2 lug locking cause its often hotter thsn commercial ammo ..get some ordinary sporting or commercial ammunition for it

[@adamhelmFYT]

I bought one of these for $150 and I had to do a background check. Im assuming its because I live in CA. Still haven't shot it because I want to slug the bore first even though its most likely 8mm.

[@brucedrake5493]

take the barrel jacket off and see if it has a Circle Z marked on it's chamber area. That is the mark saying the barrel was replaced with a .323 barrel versus its original .318" barrel bore (the older 8x57 version before the upgrade to the Model 98 and its spitzer bullet). All Commission 1888s in Turkish use were German made. The Ankara markings were put on when they upgraded/reformed them to a Model 98 exterior pattern to use Model 98 series stocks. You are also very smart to not use Turkish Surplus in those old rifles. I reload my 1888 rifle with .32 Winchester special load data. very accurate and a light round recoil-wise.

[@MaxMinXX]

I just got one like yours. But the date on the receiver is 1938. Still has the original Gew receiver, bolt, and mag. I don't know about the barrel if it is original. Only question I have is, how do you check the headspace on the bolt to receiver, if the bolt is different from the current Model 98 Mauser? It's also crazy how I can see the weld on the receiver to cover the thread - makes me second guess firing it.

[@RockIsland1913]

If your rifle looks just like the one in my video then you have a Turkish " pattern 1938" rifle that uses a German Model 1888 Commission rifle receiver. While it may resemble all the other Turkish rebuilt Mauser rifles in stock pattern and barrel it is not in any way a Mauser. The German military decided to design their own smokeless powder rifle and set up a military commission to do it cutting the Mauser brothers out of the loop. The 1888 is what they came up with, a few years later the Mauser factory introduced the small ring Mauser rifle and by 1898 the large ring legendary Model 1898. All of the Mauser small or large ring rifles were superior to the 1888, stronger, and capable of handling even magnum rounds making the 98 receiver the most popular in history for sporting conversions. The Turks used what they had, and they had lots of 1888 rifles sent to them as war aid during the Great war. Some are fully converted like the one in my video, others are still original style commission rifles with Turkish stamps on them and the conversion to 7.92mm . I highly recommend headspace testing any of these rifles, the 1888's most of all. Headspace gauges may be found at Midway USA, Brownells, even eBay. For collectors the No-Go and Field are what you need. The No-Go is the regular headspace gauge, the field is used when the No-Go fails, it gives you the absolute maximum safe headspace, if it fails that then hang the rifle on the wall. Do not expect great accuracy from a rifle that passes only with a field gauge, and as a rule I retire from shooting rifles that fail the No-Go. Opinions differ on that but this is just what I do. The gauge looks like a bullet, put it into the chamber, first remove the extractor from the bolt, gently close the bolt on the gauge stopping the instant you feel resistance to closing. Any amount of resistance is a pass, do not force the bolt to close on the gauge. If the bolt closes easily then this is a fail. You can try the field, or you might be able to correct the problem by swapping in another bolt, only commission 1888 bolts will work with this receiver. Many of these rifles have mismatched numbers on the bolts, this accounts for the high instances of headspace fails on any of the Turkish rifles. I at one time had over 10 that used German 98 or K-Kale receivers, 8 failed headspace. By swapping the bolt body's around, and trying a few Mauser bolts I had in my parts stash I got all but one to pass. That one would not pass with any bolt and is retired to the wall now. The best Commission 88's are the ones the Turks rebuilt. You have a replacement barrel that is positively intended for .323 bullets ( many early commissions chambered .318 diameter bullets) the metal barrel jacket is gone, it has modern style stock and handguard, as well as sights. Rumor has it the Turks reheat treated the receivers, maybe, maybe not, keep the pressures low just in case. The " 8mm Mauser" ( 7.92x57mm) is a rimless cartridge, it headspaces on the shoulder of the case, and it is not nearly as forgiving of poor headspace as the rimmed .303 British, or 7.62x54r Russian is. Check that headspace, the gauges are not cheap, but neither are medical or funeral expenses if that receiver fails due to poor headspace. Passing headspace is not an ironclad guarantee that any antique military rifle is safe to shoot, but it greatly increases the odds that it will be safe.

[@MaxMinXX]

@@RockIsland1913 , thanks for the great info and advice on that. I will definitely check the headspace. And yes, mine looks just like yours. It is great seeing info and history about this. Thanks again!

[@anthonyb5282]

Shooting 1945 Turkish surplus through my 1948 Turk mauser. 2 MOA all day long pretty crazy.

[@RockIsland1913]

My latest is a 1945, I shot thousands of rounds of that ammo in around 20 different rifles with no problems.

[@anthonyb5282]

@@RockIsland1913 yea I think that it’s good ammo for bolt guns. Don’t own a full auto firearm in 8mm so I don’t know about all that but so far I’ve had pretty good results for the stuff and with ammo prices now a days I’ll take it.

[@sirboomsalot4902]

I just got one at a gun show. It’s also a 1941 Ankara but with no plate on the bottom

[@RockIsland1913]

The small stamped steel cover plate that attaches to the bottom of the magazine well? Probably fell off at some point, or was never attached after the rebuild. Common enough even with the German used reworks.

[@sirboomsalot4902]

RockIsland1913 Yeah, I cant find any evidence of it ever being fitted

[@RockIsland1913]

Yea, not uncommon for them to be missing. You can probably turn one up on gunbroker, or eBay eventually, but it will function without it.

[@jefflewandowski7559]

Why does everyone still call these a model 38? It's a 88/05/35 or a 88/35

[@RockIsland1913]

Because back in the days when they were being imported the dealers gave them that generic name and it stuck.

[@jefflewandowski7559]

@@RockIsland1913 yeah, I know. But since it's now known what they really are, why not call them what they are instead of misinforming everyone still? M38's and M35's are 2 completely different rifles with non interchangeable parts.

[@RockIsland1913]

This video is from 2014, ancient history on youtube. If I do make another video someday then I will look into what the official title of these rifles is. When I asked a guy I know in Turkey who had served in the Turkish military in his younger days what he remembered these rifles being called, he and his fellow soldiers at that time apparently called all of the rifles Mauser's. That's any bolt rifle they had no matter what action it used. He had no idea what 1938, 1888, 1893, 1903, or anything else we call them here in the states meant.

[@thievingdisc779]

I bought one from 1935 with a mismatched bayonet. It cleaned up nicely and I intend to shoot it with PPU 8mm.

[@starsoftheworld4292]

price please

[@knightbane2857]

I got a 1944 kkale with a Spanish bayonet it fits XD

[@RockIsland1913]

The Spanish and south American Mauser's use the typical 1893-95 bayonet, these will all fit the Turkish Mauser's.

[@SAIO_THE_ORIGINAL]

I have an original one lol

[@RockIsland1913]

Me too, I have several that are originals or have the German upgrades, the S marked ones that are supposed to be good to go with .323 bullets. One even has VFW post markings on the stock indicating it was brought home from the Great War. Once 1888's were cheap, and overlooked by collectors, but not anymore.