Pound 3.9: Melee's Most Controversial Upset

[@mateomuro2637]

My fave was silentspectres homie saying Silentspectre would have won even harder if it was set to 1.0

[@r_bear]

That fucking rules lol

[@Flip-a-dip-dip]

Probably also true. My dude was ascended when he was playing armada

[@givecamichips]

That's the only way you should react to someone saying that you might have played the game wrong 9 years ago

[@worldscoolestperson7672]

When did he say that? I’d love to hear it, that sounds dope.

[@alexfinck4637]

tbh that knee on dreamland would have killed at 1.0

[@jakfosarn9257]

SilentSpectre calling out Armada for a salty suite rematch is one of few scenarios I could imagine that would make Armada come out of retirement 😅

[@tomazrodrigues7006]

SilentSpectre would get so so mutilated by Armada

[@A-Spoto]

The problem with a runback now is that both players are in such different places in their lives then the original set. Even if they did rematch, which would be a blast to watch, there is no way it could ever be comparable to the melee players who faced off in 2010.

[@POZsquadHSG]

@@A-Spoto then jeff needs to come out of retirement and slay top players for a while first

[@VAIS2show]

Armada would body silent specter with young link or gnw

[@Dracula_sb]

Put some respect on Jeff's name

[@SSB_Seal]

I feel like we have entered a golden age for Melee youtube content this year. There have been so many amazing video essays, TASes, combo videos, analyses, podcasts, and more. You have been a major contributor to it, so thanks for continuing to produce high quality videos like this!

[@chwig7354]

Podcasts? Im missing out! Do you have any references?

[@SSB_Seal]

+Chwig I can personally recommend the Melee Stats podcast (it’s on a break for now but there is a huge backlog if you’re interested) and the Leffen/Mango/Zain podcast that just started recently (I think the second episode was yesterday)!

[@chwig7354]

@@SSB_Seal Thanks, man.

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much man! I really appreciate it!

[@IAm-zo1bo]

yes but saying that the time we live in is a golden age will make it not the golden age Did that make sense

[@cr0wguitar]

"A COMMANDING 1% advantage"

[@krausercruz2780]

Given how explosive Melee is im not sure thats a joke or a real statement

[@shaunalbert7681]

You mean .1%

[@cr0wguitar]

@@shaunalbert7681 @06:06

[@shaunalbert7681]

@@cr0wguitar you know I’m referring to a .9 joke

[@cr0wguitar]

@@shaunalbert7681 I didn't but I do now! Lol!

[@amee4231]

I remember this set being such a big deal in the community at the time. People talked about it endlessly on smashboards. They couldn't believe Armada got beaten so early in bracket, people were talking about Captain Falcon being Armadas possible kryptonite, stuff like that. Great times.

[@turndownforwalt]

I was legit in high school when this happened and it was still just as crazy as it is today! Very great times for sure!

[@asdffjsdjasd]

I thought SilentSpectre was best known for going down there when he shouldn't have.

[@fetchyryu]

he really did tho

[@turndownforwalt]

DONT GO DOWN THERE JEFF

[@herrojason]

i dont care about the number on thumbs up. this is top comment here.

[@bruceU]

He's actually best known for winning

[@TheMegaBAMF123]

could i have the link to what you're referencing?

[@leaffinite2001]

Armada was like "lets not think about it" and Walt was like "no wait hold on"

[@turndownforwalt]

Hold my damage ratio

[@blackfalconn]

I very much appreciate your volume levels. It's just LOVELYY to hear the "wombo combo" audio without jumping out of my chair to turn down the volume.

[@turndownforwalt]

This is your daily ASMR Wombo Combo

[@Deezissus250]

Dude literally half of the stocks ss took where hard reads like wtf

[@turndownforwalt]

Jeff was an absolute monster

[@r_bear]

n0ne's dad

[@banddgames]

Video turned out great! I'm glad I could help recreate a historical moment in Melee. Keep up the wonderful content :)

[@turndownforwalt]

Thanks again for all your help! Always a pleasure working with you!

[@nel2556]

Both of you guys are amazing thanks for the content

[@Cybershell13]

Neat.

[@davelabonte7806]

Damn it seems like almost every KZbinr is into competitive ultimate or melee.

[@kinanschannel6016]

Neat

[@YourfavoriteLadderManMNAM]

.

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much!

[@bradl.602]

@@davelabonte7806 As they should be!

[@EdwardFeinho]

"Lmao damage ratio 0.9? Should be Replayed?!" I droped from my chair on that.

[@banditkade]

I love how this is like SB Nation's Rewind series. More of this, please.

[@greenoftreeblackofblue6625]

This is why we should relist poke floats in the legal stages

[@turndownforwalt]

This guy fuckin gets it

[@hermannplatz]

The real question is how this setting changes happened so many times? I play this game since the 64 version and never have I or any of my friends "accidentally" modified the damage ratio, but I heard from it quite a lot when it comes to tournaments. And aren't other players using the exact same settings aswell once Armada and SilentSpectre finished their Bo3?

[@menotyou135]

Who else is now wondering how the game's meta would be different if the damage was set to 0.9 or 1.1? I wonder how the tier list would differ

[@Riolupai]

puff might go down a bit in placement

[@riannlim991]

Your content is actually very inspirational. It's really fucking incredible how much production value you put into this, your passion really shows man!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate it a ton.

[@tyfighter6684]

I really love hearing about these melee matches I never heard of since I was never there at the time. Really fascinating things and great stories. Thanks for bringing this to light!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you for the support!

[@江建国-p9q]

“imo should be replayed” had me fucking dying lmao

[@DesTr069]

Dude, you, GRsmash and AsumSaus are carrying the whole melee KZbin content community on your backs. And I couldn’t be happier

[@SSB_Seal]

You should check out Melee Stats, Allston Melee, BandDGames, Alex Hall, Zer0, and more! There’s a lot of good Melee content out there right now!

[@DesTr069]

All right, sound like a plan, thanks!

[@zipar3132]

@@DesTr069 Don't forget the best cereal melee video maker, @c0rnflake !! Check out his vids like 'Melee is Sick (LACS Submission)'

[@traitxr]

frudgey also makes good stuff, as does c0rnflake

[@Kimjoelun]

Don't forget pengboys, and I use Gloomshot when I need a quick fix

[@FirePuff12]

Bro 10/10 content, I love Melee history and the way you edited all those videos to put together a story, and add great narration too, I don't even know what to say I love ittt

[@turndownforwalt]

Thanks so much Fire!

[@thesuntitan]

Imagine being the guy who set that ratio up as a prank, now having video essays about it

[@codycormier7326]

Yo walt, imma need you to cool it on the mind reading, I was just talking about this yesterday

[@chwig7354]

I miss the thumbs down counter

[@turndownforwalt]

🧠

[@7a9b8c1111]

Turndownforwalt’s got the reads

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@chwig7354 so much people do

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

@@chwig7354 dk why they removed it

[@unbr0ken878]

Once again an insanely insightful and well done video. Fantastic content Walt, I always look forward to your videos, hope you gain a ton more traction in the future.

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you! Much love homie ❤️

[@hechno9080]

I really like that inspiration with the starting music and spray paint from Lemmino!

[@ShadowMark3_]

Personally if a discrepancy is noticed during a set, only then should a game or set be replayed. Not afterwards, where you both played it out and even shook hands. (And if a best of 5 really needs to be replayed make that replay a best of 3)

[@ENFIKEFEPOKETC]

Or give a 1 match advantage to the winner

[@Pslamist]

@@ENFIKEFEPOKETC - This would be such a great rule. I hate that it's typically somewhat unbalanced in skill when something needs replayed, so the "loser" that would normally win has the advantage, as they know what to do with larger amounts of player knowledge.

[@IAm-zo1bo]

@@Pslamist no bro wtf

[@Pslamist]

@@IAm-zo1bo - Try to say what you mean.

[@dragvrallass1658]

@@Pslamist how any of two players have an advantage in replaying each other? they both played, if some of these two is better at capitalizing on this knowledge then they just are a better player

[@MeatSnax]

I kind of see Armada in a different light after his comments about the match. He has a good case for being the greatest Melee player of all time, and it kind of feels like he was taking away a pretty legitimate win from another really great player. Armada considers it a really big accomplishment to have never been beaten in a bo5 by any American players outside the top 6, and SilentSpectre probably feels the same way about his own win over Armada. If SS had practiced the peach matchup for months on end at 0.9 and then somehow changed the damage ratio without anyone noticing, that would obviously invalidate his accomplishment, but I don't think that's the case. The mature thing to do for Armada would be to say that maybe it wasn't strictly tournament legal, but both players were playing on equal footing and SS won the set fair and square. That's just my takeaway though. Great vid!

[@turndownforwalt]

I don’t think the statement was meant to be malicious, but I can definitely understand the interpretation. Thanks for the comment!

[@thewisewolf768]

I don't know how you got what you did from his comments.

[@av2279]

I thought I was the only one who felt notes of this in his comments. I'm sure it was tempting to just call it invalid and lean into it, so I'm kind of just appreciating that it didn't devolve to that (not that Armada would do that), but he could have still said that SS won fair and square and to just drop the issue, because, if what he says is true, he doesn't even care about that loss anymore anyway. It shouldn't matter to him if SS gets some shine.

[@frickezthias8638]

You deserve more subs. This is some of the best Sports content I've ever seen. This isn't an exaggeration. This is as good, if not better, than ESPN 30 for 30 documentaries.

[@turndownforwalt]

I really appreciate that a lot, thank you! Definitely more to come soon!

[@feargripper]

1:41 is such an iconic clip. I haven't seen it in so long lmaooooo

[@turndownforwalt]

Smirk cam too strong

[@estevaosouzones3474]

What tha hell this is so good,im feeling that im watching some science documentary Thats the best chanel for melee history

[@estevaosouzones3474]

And btw melee made the modern society and memes,prove me wrong

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you!

[@insanelyinshape]

Always a good day to see Walt post!

[@Acryte]

14:23 wow falcon looking spooky

[@zenyythultimate]

imo should be replayed

[@alphajnitro0072]

Yes that whole decade needs to be replayed all The way back to this

[@zenyythultimate]

AlphaJNitro007 exactly what i’m thinking

[@jestfullgremblim8002]

you readed my mind, lets ask albert da vinci to make a time machine for me to eat that burrito agai- i mean replay the match

[@mparagames]

18:36 "damage ratio: 1.1"

[@dovesoap5026]

INCREDIBLE VIDEO AS ALWAYS WALT. Love this vids so much man thank you for all that you do for the community. You make more of an impact with these videos than you know! Keep it up

[@turndownforwalt]

I really appreciate that! Thank you!

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

I'd say the SilentSpectre win is valid. Sure it wasn't played with the correct Damage Ratio but both players were dealt the same hand at 0.9. It's not as drastic as saying that the outcome of a set with Items on in Tournament Bracket is a completely valid win.

[@jasonlobo2350]

Well that upthrow could potencially lead to a stock so i say yes this in fact matters not as a game changer but it do matters

[@muffenman4557]

@@jasonlobo2350 yea but there are also times in that set where SilentSpectre would have gotten a kill but didn’t because of damage ratio armada himself said that it’s impossible to tell who it affected more I think it’s still a valid win

[@alexc2194]

It's not the same as a real life fight, you watch your percent and you can tell exactly how far/high someone will fly from each of your moves. Which can tell you if a move can be combo'ed into or if it can be used to kill. Example: with different characters, If you up threw someone at 100%, and that specific character will die at exactly 100% from that character's u throw, but the knockback is set to 0.9, they are no longer at 100%, but instead 90%! Which will no longer kill. While I understand that both characters were dealt the same hand, 0.9 knockback. I could never agree with anyone that it was fair, since for the newer player, they are at a slight advantage over the veteran player. A great and practiced player will know exactly how much knockback they will deal, changing the values is the same as handicapping someone.

[@WiiamGamer55]

Agree, Ss would have gotten kills much earlier if that was the case. Overall it should had been 1.0. But Silent won 2-0, still fair overall.

[@Puppet_U]

I always love hearing about melee history

[@danielmango1806]

Idk how tf you did that at 14:20 graphically. But what a GREAT visual representation showing the difference between the two. Good stuff, keep up the great story telling!

[@turndownforwalt]

That animation was provided by esugcp!

[@vecvecvec]

holy shit the production value just gets better and better

[@etiennephilippe5077]

And now smash world tour 2021 happened lmaoooo

[@OrigiName]

Dude I love your content it's what got me into competitive melee keep up the absolutely incredible work

[@dasheiten]

Who knew that .1 would change so much... great video!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you!

[@Joshyboy225]

I don’t follow a lot of competitive smash, especially in the melee department, yet I still love to watch these kinds of videos from you and others like AsumSaus from time to time. Great stuff, man!

[@turndownforwalt]

Really glad to hear that, thank you!

[@masons2442]

I literally drive right past the venue that this happened at twice a week. Never knew there was a major smash tournament so close

[@velvety2528]

2:28 I NEVER KNEW THIS AUDIO WAS FROM A MELEE CLIP

[@Jadinass]

ZOOMER

[@Akyure]

ZOOMER

[@Frosty-my5lm]

ZOOMER

[@Snpaulie]

ZOOMER

[@cannoli7672]

I pop in as soon as there are 347 likes. The coincidence is frightening.

[@stephenwood8280]

The production value in this video is great! thanks for the upload my guy

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you for the comment!

[@bingoblackdynomite]

Man, every time I watch a video like this, I want to dive deeper into esports, specifically the Smash community. I love the hype crowds have like with the Wombo Combo vid, and I'm always so invested in lore like The Five Gods and the win that inspired this video. Maybe when I'm freer I can spend more time diving fully into competitive Smash

[@turndownforwalt]

I think I should have a few videos here which can help you make that dive!

[@crooker23]

cannot believe it was literally a Jim who exposed this, can't write it

[@turndownforwalt]

*Twilight zone music intensifies*

[@ARMTOAST]

gamerjim is actually mafia's new tag. he's been lifetime banned from events for sexually assaulting a melee commentator.

[@L0rdMace]

Can we just appreciate the timestamps, upload date and other hidden .9 jokes in this video?

[@turndownforwalt]

It’s the little things

[@darksyde3000]

Wow, I remember the day this set happened and everyone was like SEE!? FALCON IS LEGIT, he can win a major etc and feeling inspired. What a bummer to find out Jeff's win wasn't legit even though he clearly played amazing. TBF The ratio makes every single interaction questionable, even if the throw was the most noticeable. Crazy detective work by the community to notice.

[@triumphant8637]

Armada still lost. Jeff wombo combo’d once more like a legend.

[@mrpinguimninja]

Amazing video, dude. Your production value is outstanding, huge congrats

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you!

[@evanzigmond1213]

Omg Twin 1 and Twin A! What a throwback, let's go New Mexico

[@ARMTOAST]

you probably shouldn't have shouted gamerjim out, that's Mafia's new tag. he's received a lifetime ban for sexually assaulting someone in the scene.

[@UwU777UwU]

For the knock down though, in all the test videos the tree wasn’t blowing wind. Only the original video.

[@turndownforwalt]

Wispy doesn't impact Damage Ratio, so it didn't matter if the tree was blowing or not for the TAS. Good observation though!

[@PolythenePam0451]

"When Jeff grabs you you just put your controller down and hope he fucks up" - Mango

[@tenslein8977]

Are you sure that interview at 1:00 was from Pound 4? It looks like an Apex interview.

[@turndownforwalt]

It is from Apex! Unfortunately couldn’t find much in-person footage from Pound, so just went with something around the same year.

[@shredder6969]

There is actually one other American with a winning record against Armada who was never in the top 6. Only a few still in the melee scene know the truth about this :) Props for the fun vid!

[@Aighthandle]

Are we talking about a foundry loss to a kirby?

[@shredder6969]

@@Aighthandle He picked Peach and definitely wasn't drunk

[@chvd00]

your videos are super chill. thanks for uploading

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you for watching!

[@paokir1]

Fuck... I love melee and this channel. This videos makes it easy for me to convince people that this game and community is the best thing. Thanks for your service Walt .

[@turndownforwalt]

I really appreciate that! If the channel can get more people into Melee, I’m all for it!

[@seanb5356]

Why does this channel not have more subs bro this some of the best melee content around

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much! We’re definitely growing and it’s really cool to see!

[@enklaev1933]

Were living in a melee renaissance

[@DavidSartor0]

*We're

[@enklaev1933]

@@DavidSartor0 yeaaaaah mhmm

[@DavidSartor0]

@@enklaev1933 Haha.

[@DavidSartor0]

I didn't notice the first two times, but you spelled "renaissance" correctly. Good job.

[@enklaev1933]

@@DavidSartor0 who are you lmao

[@anone1243r]

really glad that after all these years we can play melee on our desktops and laptops. also glad that we can dissect game play footage frame by frame. asking for a 9 year old rematch tho is just silly. i know i know create discussion and blow it to a small drama because of content. im just not digging this 'rewriting history' aspect we all seem to pursue. just roll with it LMAO

[@daveconnor6174]

Dang this was a really enjoyable video - cheers!

[@PigsSSBM]

damnnn that thumbnail lookin clean

[@plasticbudgie]

the wombo combo! damn i find it crazy that i have a comment on that original video in like the first 200 comments. The internet really changed after 2010 didn't it.

[@cyfer115]

This is awesome! Thanks for uploading 😊

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you for commenting!

[@kingdedede933]

I like how it took .9 of a decade to find .9 on the knockback meter.

[@av2279]

I'd be interested in seeing a TAS recreation of that knee at 4:45 with 1.0 damage ratio though. Js.

[@prizm9515]

It's unfortunate whenever anything like this happens in Melee. But I think it is stupid to have player replay matches unless they both agree to it. I mean the winner should want to replay the set, but I don't think they should be forced to. These kind of things happen outside of esports too. For example filling up a football too much or there being an irregular hole in the field or something. You don't see them replaying a football game.

[@turndownforwalt]

I can agree with that, but even with a more traditional sport like football controversy is bound to put the game in question!

[@Goron333]

The guy at 1:24 talking to Armada...who is he? I swear I played Melee with him at the University of Nottingham. He managed to set up an entire scene over here which kept me sane during University. The guy was a legend.

[@turndownforwalt]

If you're talking about the interview at 1:29, that is Hadster!

[@resdek2246]

in 10 years when we have smash on espn you need to make the docs

[@turndownforwalt]

That would be pretty awesome!

[@TheFirstRamenKamen]

We can literally get practical TAS to recreate this match. Frame by frame in 1.0 in 2023 to finally figure this out.

[@eneruem]

There is nothing to figure out it, there was at least one point in the set where the 0.9 ratio let SS escape what would’ve been a hard punish by Armada so the set doesn’t matter

[@able.]

Was that intro a reference to Lemmino?

[@turndownforwalt]

It was!

[@Descro382]

You did it again Walt, hell yeah!

[@KC-824]

Love your stuff mate. Don’t stop.

[@MicolYackson94]

Honestly Spectre still beat Armada. They both were at a disadvantage. A loss is a loss.

[@noirlavender6409]

Thanks dude, you're among the best content creators I've found this year, please do more videos and bless you

[@turndownforwalt]

Really appreciate that, thanks a bunch!

[@coleellenbogen4531]

Super interesting, even as someone who isn't deep into the Smash community

[@yangu5537]

Great video! Very interesting! Keep it up.

[@akallstar5]

They always forget about C rabbit who armada lost to and never faced again at smashed at the foundry... I mean he was supposedly drunk but it’s still a legit loss.

[@baileyayyy5085]

your videos make me happy

[@turndownforwalt]

That comment makes me happy!

[@Noobieedu]

hey i think that first clip was from apex 2010 where he and his brother was interviewed with the twins.

[@turndownforwalt]

It was! I unfortunately couldn’t find much live footage from Pound, so I worked with what I had within the year.

[@flop22222]

That intro clip where you call out Armada for “lying” doesn’t seem right. If that clip was from after all of this was discovered about this set in 2019 then I can see that but if this was before then he wasn’t lying for he had no idea that it wasn’t true. Lying implies intent to deceive

[@turndownforwalt]

Agreed! Was just trying to make a funny narrative for the intro - not intended as a dig to Armada at all!

[@super2thesam]

Totally fair response, but I also was thinking the same thing. Felt a bit off tone from your other otherwise super super solid vids.

[@Jadinass]

When i read stuff like that i have to wonder if you fully comprehend the english language. He didn't call Armada a liar, he called the statement he made a lie and since it was in fact a falsehood (unwittingly or not) means that he used the absolutely 100% correct semantics.

[@Mullkaw]

@@JadinassLying does imply intent to deceive though

[@GayTier1Operator]

bro he’s just making a joke. chill the fuck out

[@angeredgoose7552]

Doesn’t matter, Jeff still would have won the set. He TWO STOCKED ARMADA on ARMADA’S COUNTERPICK. First game Armada maybe takes it. Second game is SS’ counterpick, which looks probably his favor, and third is FD, which is already a TWO STOCK. Jeff played out of his mind this set, and he deserves the win.

[@eneruem]

Doesn’t work like this, the fact that Armada went down first game could’ve impacted his mental and if Jeff lost after a close game one it would’ve impacted his too. It’s not just what you see on the screen

[@superangel7234]

Massive game tournament organization who specialize in glitching out a party game from 20 years ago are surprised and appalled to find a glitch in their video game Either way, cool video :))

[@tree_0550]

Like I said about the ucf video, they both played on the same ruleset, equal playing field, silentspectre outplayed armada, even if it was on .9

[@crooker23]

sure, but there will always be an asterisk next to that set. rightfully so imo

[@thomasr.6669]

True, but stuff that would’ve happened on 1.0 could’ve changed the outcome of the match. In .9: Peach: Down Smash and aerials don’t kill as early, the forced tumble from up throw that could’ve led to a combo or a chain grab isn’t possible. Falcon: General kill moves don’t kill as early, makes it easier to combo into knee confirms since Peach is thrown a shorter distance for a longer stretch of %, being sent a shorter distance helps him recover easier until later %’s than usual (Peach doesn’t matter as much since she has a very horizontal recovery and can make it back easier than Falcon). There are other things I’m sure, but I don’t play Melee much, just watch it a lot. I personally think the .9 KB helped Silentspectre more than Armada. Correct me if I’m wrong though.

[@dylanthompson8449]

I love your vids always the most interesting matches and great info and commentary keep it up 🙂

[@sway3365]

Im getting a job soon and cant wait to throw you some $$$. Thank you for putting out consistently great content!

[@turndownforwalt]

Thank you so much, and please don’t feel forced to do that! I really appreciate the support regardless!

[@camgoczeski2198]

Bro what about wispy woods blowing in the background during the up throw? Does that change anything somehow?

[@swank8508]

it does not, but thats a good question

[@edmonbrunks7758]

I swear I was going to watch 1-2 min to know what exactly it was about, before I realized it I watched the entire video.

[@HughGRection]

Fantastic work, dude

[@turndownforwalt]

HUGH

[@hugogieles4816]

dude this video was great nice work

[@playerdreamer181]

great video dude, as always in the end of the video i get +20iq

[@surfyswag]

This title/thumbnail is probably the best on any smash video ever uploaded to youtube. Also great coverage of an iconic smash moment #freemelee

[@wollie4649]

He has to experience that loss once again... the loss of a fried? A family member? No... a set in a party game !!!!

[@DIZZY0509]

Wasn’t silencepecter and armada at g3? They should Salty suite that lmao

[@Ch1ll4x1n]

maybe that tree blowing at something to do with it

[@tombomb2162]

Another God tier vid