Turns out they can EXPLODE?

[@andyjame28]

I was really surprised how much cutting power (and torque) this saw had out of the box. I've used other (10" saws) previously and was pretty surprised with the speed and cutting ability of this Dewalt saw.I have bolted mine to a table to minimize movement which I highly recommend.This is a Great saw kzbin.infoUgkxPeGkHOMe05FySypTOvYumxMn-xi39oRe with a light to see your cutting line (not a laser line).I'd recommend this saw fro anyone looking to upgrade from a 10" miter saw.

[@johneckelkamp9655]

Purhased one of these and waited for its arrival with great anticipation. Installed it easily following the directions. Then immediately got very sick and haven't been able to use it once. :( I'm almost fully recovered and looking forward to putting it throiugh its paces. It feels good to see your thorough and public response to this feedback.

[@ShopNation]

Get better soon!

[@stormriderkaos]

Out of many thousands of cuts on a miter saw I only ever had an offcut take off once. Small length of oval maple handrail.... it got caught on the blade and brought it up to the shroud assembly. That broke a couple teeth off the $120 12" carbide blade and bent the rotor in the saw motor. Dewalt 12" compound sliding miter.

[@cchladny]

The issue with throwing pieces is a pinch. One way to easily reproduce it without going through an entire hickory board is to set up a stop block that would be set to cut, like, 1/4" pieces. A couple cuts like that, leaving the blade spinning as you pull back up, and you should be able to reproduce it fairly quickly.

[@evandarling699]

2 ideas...people pushing a dull blade will probably cause it to bite more and can you put a steel frame on it with a deflection angle on it to shoot it under the vent?

[@dadlife8289]

I've only used a miter for my own base boards, but I will chomp away to inch up to my line and have those small pieces stack up 😅

[@DuceDesigns]

Maybe you could make the cattle grid as a replaceable insert, purchasable separately?

[@vjaneczko]

This is the classic scenario of trying to make something idiot-proof and they'll make a better idiot. It'd be nice if it only took a warning sticker on the chute but I'm sure someone would ignore it and still cause the damage. It's a tough situation to be in for a small business but I think you found the solution, even though it's up to the operator to be smarter & be safer. Keep up the good work!

[@alaskanadventures5865]

Mine has done this too unfortunately. I think my saw blade deflection or maybe a slightly snaggled tooth on the blade caused my offcut to fly. I do not leave any pieces laying around the blade so it was not that.

[@ShopNation]

Great data point, thank you!

[@lincolndickerson1293]

How about shop temperature? Plastic shatters so much easier at 50° than 80° room temp

[@CaseyMiller-oq4fl]

Hey Travis - first off thank you. You always have safety and design in your products. I own the Ridgid chute and other products you sell. I like your thoughts of making it stronger, but maybe just another thought I haven’t seen commented on…..maybe the current strength of the chutes are the perfect strength. I say this, with total agreement of not letting material build up, but if for some crazy reason this just happenings with the user being absolutely careful, I would rather the chute destroy then having the chute try and stay together and having a catastrophic failure with saw/blade/machine. Kind of like the concept of most vehicles today, impact in the front takes all the damage and protects the most important areas. I think this could be the same for the current chutes. Either way - absolute love your products, your dedication and videos

[@TheMegaChuckles]

It appears the conclusion to the testing is the issue is PEBKAC, Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair, or in other words "user error"

[@appleorange34]

Thinking about all the FDM printers you have. I wonder if it would be more efficient to move to a DLP printer farm when the FDM printers have warn out. This would absolutely shift issues from FDM printing to DLP issues. But with DLP you could fill the Bed with parts and it would take the amount of time to print the tallest part. Time is driven by the Z height. If X part take 4 hours to print and you can fit 5 parts in the bed. All 5 parts would finish in 4 hours. Much smoother parts after removing the supports. More injection mold like. Different material options, might be better, debatable. Downsides, learning the pitfalls of DLP printing. Dealing with resin and the new safety concerns of resin. Resins issues with end use parts might be a deal breaker. Post processing of resin is totally different than FDM. Bed size for a Resin printer is becoming about the same cost as FDM. Resolution is much higher. The material offerings is getting better every day. Food for thought.

[@kevinclassen4624]

Mine blew up as portrayed. Then again another small piece offcut shredded the dust collector even worse. I realized I screwed up and was using the slide when I shouldn't have (on my uncle Bosch). The sliding motion on the blade niggled the offcut, then flung it into the dust collector, where the size was perfect to catch the blade, and that force between the blade and the dust collector transmitted through the offcut piece is what really shredded the dust collector. So the lesson learned? Don't be stupid me. Lock the saw to be a miter saw cause then my offcuts on small stock just sit in place. Better yet, get around to making that zero clearance fence plate to match the bed throat plate that I made (See Dennis from Hooked on Wood for a great example). Now back to the video to see if he's improved the design (looks like that's the direction he's headed) and if so then go order the improved version. I liked it that much!

[@kevinclassen4624]

For what it's worth, I wasn't "a lunatic". In my case I didn't have previous offcuts behind the stock. Just a clean setup, but the motion of the slider, and my vacuum, was enough to suck/throw the piece up and the blade likely pushed it through the dust collector as pictured in his videos.

[@jamesberry847]

Curious if replaceable "cattle guard" is a possible solution for people who do a lot of angled miters. Not sure about the economics of production however (multiple SKUs, storage overhead, etc...)

[@barthrh2]

That along with making it out of a less brittle material, like nylon. Tough to print, but easier with a small part (I imagine a disk-like insert).

[@alanb76]

Perhaps glass filled PETG or ABS would survive better without breaking the bank. Or carbon fiber filled?? The kick occurs when a blade tooth catches a piece rather than cutting it, and accelerates it to blade tooth velocity. You can probably make it happen every time by positioning an offcut toward the back and bringing the blade down quickly enough so it has no chance to cut. At some point it just becomes an accident and even the saw itself can be endangered. I saw a block of PVC get picked up by a 12" chop saw and thrown so hard it bent the blade and the blade/motor axle, essentially trashing the entire saw. Cutting anything that is not held in place is a risk factor.

[@michaelfahim5878]

Would you be able to break the dust chute that came with the saw in the same fashion? Maybe it’s the difference in materials from the manufacturer and what is used to print.

[@ShopNation]

It is injection molded (stronger) but also farther away from the blade and doesn’t play a role in the kickback potential, but not immune from other kickback

[@SLU94]

Not deterred, still patiently waiting on your Dewalt edition.

[@LickorishAllsorts]

Perhaps a low shop temperature adds to the problem.

[@michaelmilton4427]

Interesting. I enjoyed your video.

[@johnkelly4043]

Carlin Lmao. Way too many of them today!

[@davidewing3104]

This is a strength vs toughness issue. The plastic is plenty strong...however not tough enough for the impact. And as stated...leaving offcuts in there is bad practice. Never leave a potential projectile near spinning blade.

[@henrikbrunberg1357]

have you tried honeycomb infill? i heard its stronger.

[@user-pk2fg8im4u]

Basically what happens is that the saw is being turned into a pitching machine. If one is going to make repeated short cutoffs, CLEAR THE PATH OF THE BLADE BEFORE MAKIN ANOTHER CUT. This isn't rocket science.

[@mapleholler9800]

Anyone that allows offcuts to build up behind the blade like that, is inviting trouble. You can't fix stupid.

[@randywheeler3914]

I have been wanting to get a miter saw and have wanted to go with the corded Milwaukee but everybody I talked to say the dust collection is horrible which is why I haven't pulled the trigger on any of them yet do you have plans on making one for the Milwaukee?

[@christopherdekonstrukt444]

I'll make sure I don't cut too small pieces in my saw and take the time to clamp everything down. This chute is working so good I don't have to build a hood around my saw anymore.

[@msp5616]

Well this proved one point, no matter how well you RnD and then produce something. There is a constant, you cannot allow for that one" Nut" Thats the "Nut" operating the machine, now thats always a constant variable

[@OVHabitats]

As always I appreciate your candor. Most people/ manufacturers would not respond to customer complaints let alone release video of the failure. Especially if the failure was end user error. It is a "dust" collector not an "off cut collector. You are awesome! Easy way to protect yourself is add a warning/ advisory notice. Fast food companies printed "hot liquid" on the side of coffee cups to stop being sued by morons that put a hot coffee cup between there legs and got burned. These are the same people that would have returned the coffee if it were not hot. Go figure...

[@josephpk4878]

Tools break - it happens all the time - it's the nature of the trades. If you're cutting material on your miter saw and there's nothing backing your offcuts and you're allowing scrap material to build up behind the blade, then you should expect an elevated risk of something going from zero to 1000mph in a split second. Don't be so ready to point fingers when your equipment breaks - maybe ask yourself if you're using it right.

[@alreadyfalling]

My buddy destroyed mine last night, and I could not figure out how. Now I understand haha. it definitely exploded and will definitely be building a nice zero clearance fence. Great video and great products!

[@jamesocker5235]

You can select with newer slicer to improve infill in certain areas. Nice part

[@ChadsCustomCreations]

Love these product development series you’re doing, the full transparency is very honorable.

[@chris.pekarsky]

Completely agreed. Even with companies with teams of engineers and quality control infrastructure in place things still fail. I had a Bosch router circle jig fail on me after the first use and one would think they have a bigger team working on them then shop nation does. So kudos to owning up and taking us all through the journey.

[@adgieem1]

I honestly believe the people who design, build, and sign off on new tools never allow the “ average Joe” to use those tools and give their opinion on it. No way should any tool have a negative if a true user got to use it before it went to market.

[@andrewmetts4622]

I just installed your dust chute on my Bosch Glide Miter Saw today, and found a link to this video in the package. I like your systematic approach to both development of the original product, and attempting to re-create conditions that caused failure. Great videos! I've been woodworking for about 50 years now, and I've had a few mishaps that would have thrown small pieces into your dust chute if it had been there. 1. Cutting small pieces against a stop. If you hold the saw blade down and allow the blade to stop turning you're OK; but if you raise the spinning blade while the small offcut is trapped against the stop, the extra thickness of the teeth will sometimes lift the end of the offcut until it becomes pinched between the blade and the stop, much like tablesaw kickback. That gives the blade the traction needed to launch the offcut violently. 2. Even without a stop, a wedge-shaped offcut resulting from a sharp miter becomes pinched between the fence and the body of the spinning blade. All is well until you raise the blade, and the wedge shape gives the teeth the traction to launch the offcut. Hope this helps you or somebody else. Great job!

[@Gatewaybuilds]

Thank you for showing and addressing product “issues”. People often don’t realize how much time and effort go into product development and testing, so your transparency and honesty is staggeringly refreshing. Keep it up!!

[@bgregt1575]

Mine blew out when I was cutting a short piece of 1x2. Fortunately I use a third hand for just such situations. Never thought about requesting a replacement because it was my mistake. I just collected all of the pieces and glued them back together. Filled the missing gaps with epoxy. The design is good.

[@RobDucharme]

Yeah, see if the body is still basically intact, that's the way to do it. Just frankenfix it!

[@clcphoto]

This is what happened on mine, too. The saw pulled the the short piece out from under the third hand and shattered the chute. I did contact Travis and appreciated the discounted replacement part!

[@Jmb0491]

I think 1x1 or 1x2 is stock that has issues most. I watched this video before mine arrived and the first cut almost blew out and I had a sliver get suck into blade guard. Definitely cautious with this now on what cuts I'll use it for.

[@MattFormoso]

this is not your mistake this is a product FLAW and a serious safety issue how does no one see that?

[@clcphoto]

@@MattFormoso I'm wondering if this issue is just unavoidable and maybe the reason why dust collection is so bad on these saws -- saw manufacturers just don't want to deal with this problem.

[@joshkendrick3764]

Also, dull blades might make it easier to throw a piece as well. When the blades are dull, they are tearing through the wood as opposed to slicing it. I would expect it to be more likely to impart more force into the piece as you cut.

[@IQLion]

That's what I was thinking a dull blade or a warped blade could send pieces flying even if you don't let off cuts build up.

[@mjstutter12]

A dull blade will definitely do it worked for a cheap a$$ would use same blade for everything and only replace if it keeps popping breaker.

[@bobbg9041]

Type of blade too, you wouldn't want to use a deep gullet high aggressive cutting blade with a lot of positive rake i belive blades ment to be used on a miter saw are labeled for miter saw use, you shouldn't expect a table saw ripping blade Not to cause problems. I didnt see him test different types of blades. I have seen a serious ripping blade on a radial arm saw and that blade on that saw has a lot of lifting power something you do not want on a radial arm saw. Miter saws and radial arm saws use the same type of blade.

[@David-hm9ic]

A dirty blade that's not actually dull is just as bad IMO. . .

[@craigfehr411]

Great video, thanks Travis! I was one that had a chute explode and I promise I wasn’t cutting like a lunatic 😂. My scenario was just a single cut (so no build up of offcuts), and the only time it got violently sucked up was when I did an angel cuts (22.5 degrees) on edge. Otherwise had no issues at all. Will definitely try the “zero clearance” fence trick tho. Worth mentioning too was the great customer service I received when I reached out. 👍

[@quadcamera]

was watching this video and was saying to myself that he test it while cutting bevels that results in small offcuts. That's the only time I get projectiles from my miter saw.

[@tredd_dude]

Craig, we are all sure that you were having a cutting party and got wild - showing off for some chicks cause the wife was out of time....Will prob. happen to me in my shop party.....

[@daveschaaf6067]

Great video and love the transparency. Knocking your unhappy customers and calling them “Karen’s” wasn’t a value-add to your message. May have made you feel better, but kind of petty too. Refund at cost versus just cost of postage seems like you aren’t willing to stand behind your product, even if they were stupidly using the mitre saw. A bit penny-wise, pound foolish as word of mouth is free advertising and fixing a poor review, even one, is much more expensive than just replacing a piece of plastic. Your business and not knocking what you do. You have always produced high-quality videos, merely some observations from the cheap seats.

[@ShopNation]

In my opinion my reaction is 100% dependent on the attitude of the customer. I’ve replaced several for free because the customer was a reasonable human being. On the other hand, if you come at me like an entitled 4 year old, I’m far less likely to be generous

[@daveschaaf6067]

Fair enough. This wasn’t talked about in the video. Look, some people suck….but treating some differently than others because of their attitude will give you mixed results. Have one policy and apply it consistently, so it takes the emotion out of it. Regardless, I very much enjoy the videos you produce and not being critical. Merely providing a point of view to consider or dismiss. Good luck with the business and as soon as you have something for the Festool miter saw I will be buying one. Dust free my ass….😅

[@halsti99]

one way to get a high chance of kickback on mitre saws is to use a stop block on the off cut side, then raise the blade while its still spinning post cut. that basically blocks the off cut between the blade and the stop block and shoots it out.... just in case you ever need to test stuff like that again.

[@liquidhalf]

This is what I was hoping to see in the video.

[@scotth5503]

Exactly, I get kickback pretty predictably when cutting smaller pieces with a stopblock. Very rare otherwise

[@rhettdunn8788]

My elderly dad often uses my saw. He’s not a woodworker. So I constantly remind him to let the blade stop spinning before raising it when using a stop block. Anyone with a miter saw should be taught this

[@RescueResidence]

I was assuming the kickbacks were from stop blocks.

[@MrTapanes]

No, you are obviously incorrect. Only people using their saws like maniacs and who pile up offcuts on the cutline will have any issues. /s Disappointed with Travis' attitude in this vid. To berate part of his customer base as entitled male karens (no matter how much of a PITA they might have been) isn't something any successful company does. Come on Travis, you're better than that.

[@Gn4rkillz]

In the world of customer service, if 1% of your sales have an issue, and a very small percentage of those customers have an issue where a replacement is the best/only option, why not eat the cost of a few dust collection shutes, and skip the drama? People will likely be more outspoken of your product if you took care of them in these admittedly rare scenarios, than if you call them Karen's on KZbin. Not to say that some people aren't truly ridiculous sometimes, but chalk it up to R&D, and be known as the guy/company that handles the issue.

[@ShopNation]

Agree, and that is usually what happens, there really haven’t been a ton of “Carlins” to deal with, but as a very small business I’m choosing not to let them win, even if they give a bad review - who cares

[@alantran6901]

DeWalt had a recall on their saws for the same exact issue. The factory plastic piece was blowing up/shattering. The new recall repair kit is a stamped steel version .

[@OU81TWO]

...and they probably don't charge you for it. Recall/fixes are usually no cost to the customer.

[@ginaj7276]

@@OU81TWO Correct, it was sent for free, I still need to install mine

[@josephlarson7725]

@@OU81TWO Uh, little bit of difference between publicly owned Stanley Black & Decker Corporation (parent company of DeWalt) with $15 Billion in revenue last year vs Travis' private start-up company. I can't even begin to imagine the size of the legal department for a public company that designs, manufactures and sells power tools. We bought an aftermarket gizmo that is not endorsed by the OEM's. I think he's doing everyone right by selling them a replacement unit at cost. Especially when most guys admitted right away, they did something they knew wasn't best practice.

[@johnhaller5851]

​@@josephlarson7725There was the potential of people getting hurt with the DeWalt issue. There is liability which can be quite high. If people start complaining to the Consumer Products Safety Commission, even for small quantity 3d printed parts, there is likely to be a recall, and the requirement to refund anyone who had to pay for a replacement part. By the way, the old part was all polycarbonate (both pieces), the new one was polycarbonate for one piece and steel for the other. The other design change was to change the spring design. The spring change seems to be the major difference, as it appears the spring could have been installed incorrectly at the factory. Prerecall and presale units were only inspected, presumably for the spring position, and the part was not replaced if in the right position. The main part of the 779 dust collector on the DeWalt which was causing problems on the Bosch is rubber on the DeWalt, not plastic. I think the recall is for a totally different problem, although both triggered by an offcut. With the spring not in position, the part could get pushed into the blade, which is what causes the shattering on the DeWalt. It's also part of the blade guard, not part of the dust collector, and is there to keep offcuts from getting into the top of the blade guard. I got one of the pre-recall/pre-sale version which was inspected, but I didn't notice the little blue dot showing it was inspected until after I ordered the replacement part.

[@Shop_Simplicity]

After every cut, you should clear the area. I'm not sure these people were taught how to use their tools.

[@quadsquadracingable]

Well that's not how it happens! What happens is the vacuum volume increase picks up small offcuts and pulls it into the back of the blade. First cut!

[@quadsquadracingable]

Also, I've been a wood worker for almost 40 years so instantly thinking they are incompetent using their tools isn't always an accurate assumption!

[@umchoyka]

@@quadsquadracingable If your off cut is hitting the back of your spinning blade then it's still user error. You should let the blade come to a complete stop before releasing it out of the slot.

[@quadsquadracingable]

@@umchoyka really? I have let off the trigger just before the blade finishes the cut to see why it was doing it. And unless the blade instantly stops the nano second the cut is done the blade being inside the throat plate waiting for the blade to stop you can't prevent a small 45 degree offcut to be not sucked toward the dust chute where guess where the blade is? Inside the dust chute! Again your assuming what's happening. Instead of assuming the user error is the culprit, use questions or science in figure out what is going on will save anyone else from taking a simple comment personally. Which I didn't, I just want to be understood how I had an occurrence of more than once with different parameters.

[@dagorithe]

I agree. I usually clear the off cuts so they don’t become bouncing bullets in the shop.

[@AwesomeSauceShow]

The real question is, do you provide warranty?

[@dwightwilcox1836]

Suggestion based on how manufacturers I used to represent handled breakage issues (in an entirely different industry): If the customer sends you the damaged item - with note on circumstances if possible - send the replacement free. Along with written warning not to misuse in ways you've already discovered (include that with all future orders anyway). Otherwise they pay for replacement at cost. Once.

[@dwightwilcox1836]

Essentially you're buying information doing it as suggested above.

[@mrlebowski100]

My first one exploded with one quick cut ( I should have taken more time) off a 3/4" piece of plywood. I had been using it for a few weeks with no issue. I never let anything pile up on the saw so I think it is just something that can happen when you cut small pieces. I ordered a second one because the product does a great job ( I paid full price, no complaints) but I had already decided to add the fence before I use it again.

[@Damon_Barber]

I’m wondering if your small cut happened to use a stop block?

[@defensivecyberllc]

Same thing happened to Dewalt Miter Saws.. they switched back to metal from plastic. They did offer free replacements/fixes though.. as the liability from the "explosions" is something you should be aware of.

[@ryanreuter1]

I bought a delta cruzer yesterday based on your video. Immediately ordered a chute for it. I've got full confidence in your stuff because of your approach on these videos. If you make a new version that's better, I'll buy that one too. Thanks man.

[@sammyg2926]

Awesome update video. I had a thought while watching, would a thin rubber pad with adhesive lining the intake be enough to absorb the kinetic force and prevent it from shattering? I don't think the rubber would impede the air flow, and if it solves the problem it might be worth a try. I definitely think the main issue is user error. Thanks for the update vid!

[@ryanexley51]

What about making your “cattle grid” solution a replaceable part that clips onto the front, sell them in packs of 5 or something then these can be sacrificed rather than a main blow out. As an added bonus you could sell them if different colours so people can personalise their version 😊

[@TheJesseMoody]

or I was thinking if it could be machined out of a light weight aluminum or something that would be stronger than printed plastics.

[@tannerkennedy4941]

​@TheJesseMoody at that point it would likely break the plastic it is mounted to. The next weakest link.

[@TheJesseMoody]

@@tannerkennedy4941 Most likely as that will def be the weakest link in the chain.

[@DogTownRiverRat]

@@TheJesseMoody plus he would probably have to outsource this to a machine shop as he makes all his products on his own with 3D printers.

[@TheJesseMoody]

@@DogTownRiverRat yeah that would be the downside. unless he invested in some new equipment to produce them but that isn't cheap. I have done some stuff that is pretty great with flexing and impacts but the speed these wood chunks hit the plastic and their hardness is what will destroy the plastic every time.

[@mrgunn2726]

Sorry to hear about you situation. I enjoyed watching your problem determination steps and engineer's mind at work. I hope you have product liability insurance. The first time someone is actually injured by your product expect a call from the government and the injured parties lawyer. Yeah lawyers 😕 I would offer this one piece of advice, never criticize your customers publicly, even if they are big dumb poopy heads and deserve it, its bad business and makes you appear like a tactless jerk, instead of the consummate professional you are.

[@draconis112]

I'd also like to see how these do in TPU as you had mentioned. In the drone space it has proven to be pretty resilient to impacts and is still lightweight.

[@kblock1738]

I think the issue is this: then what happens? It would travel around the blade guard and back towards you, right?

[@JustinShands]

@@kblock1738 Yeah, if all that force doesn't break through the back, it's just going to get thrown back into the blade again... "best case" it just juggles around a bit until it flops out harmlessly to the side...

[@ADBBuild]

@@kblock1738 It would probably just get sucked up by the dust collection.

[@jeffwimer3969]

Your dust collection adapter has been a game changer. It has greatly diminished the amount of dust that comes off of each cut. Thanks for sharing this update.

[@jaypeeters]

I would add a link to this video when you send your product to customers... mayby edit out the Karen/Carlin part.

[@shmiggz]

Nah

[@Erik_The_Viking]

The only time I've seen this even happen is when I didn't clear out the area behind the blade, or when a small piece fell into the path of the blade. I really appreciate the engineering work you're putting into the product to make it better - I'm looking forward to your DeWalt version when it's available because the "dust collection" is a complete joke. I use a trash bag duct taped over the saw instead.

[@masterfabricator]

Why would anybody pay even cost for a replacement? You need to warranty your product and send a replacement free and shipping on your dime.

[@ShopNation]

Hey Carlin 👋🏼

[@bobbg9041]

Not necessarily, was it becuse of improper safe us on the saw or just a fluke thing? Yes if it was a safe cut meaning no short cuts over the gap area of the fence if the end of a cut or cut off is in the fence gap, the saw has to come to a complete stop befor lifting the blade, Lifting a running blade often sends parts flying also taking short cuts under 4" long So a board has to be used to bridge the gap the sawblade has to come to a stop befor lifting it. It always has been that in the owners manul or you risk sending the offcut flying.

[@bobbg9041]

Last point, if you drive a 6 speed corvette 100 miles an hour and drop it from 5th gear to 3dr gear for more motor rpm And the motor timming chain jumps a tooth a piston knocks a hole on the side of the block should GM send you a new motor free of charge? No becuse its beyond the usable capabilities of almost every engine and its product abuse. Now he's taken the time to test his product under extream condition and came up with a solution and cause He could decide not to warrent claims on that principle. However he needs to send a product use statement how and why safe use for it, now if somone still has problems he can look into that if proper procedures are used. I think he's being very fair.

[@scottgates4616]

As a carpenter and long-time miter saw user, I have some thoughts to consider. The type of kickback you are seeing happens when the off-cut gets punched between the blade and something else. The pinching is usually necessary for the saw tooth to get enough traction on the part to transfer enough energy to cause that much acceleration. It can get punched against something rigid, like the fence. Or it can get punched against something soft like the rubber dust boot. Without the pinching, the off-cut just usually just moves out of the way a little when the saw tooth makes contact. Leaving many small pieces in a confined area certainly increases the likelihood of pinching. However, a single piece can definitely pinch against something and become a projectile. I have done it many times. For me, that is usually because my off-cut is slightly smaller than the gap between my blade and fence. That is one of the ways the zero clearance fence helps. The kickbacks that I experience, as well as the ones that you duplicated, can be reduced by operator awareness. First, keep the cutting area clean, as you suggested. Second, be aware of the off-cut size and potential spaces that it can get pinched and bind against the blade. I would question the idea of making a dust collector strong enough to not break. The rotational energy of the blade is very high at that RPM. Your kickback examples blasted through that plastic with almost no effect on the blade speed. Imagine if that off-cut had no place to exit and was forced to stay bound against the blade until all of that energy was absorbed. I think something more catastrophic would happen. Possibly blade damage or even damage to the spindle, bearings or aluminum housing. Maybe giving the off-cut a way to exit sooner or easier would be a consideration. I hope this helps.

[@Peter-House-Jr]

Your theory is clrearly demonstrated by the video and I am surprised Shop Nation did not catch on earlier. This is exactly what happens during a table saw kickback event when the cutoff wedges itself between the spinning blade and the fence and transfers the rotational momentum of the blade into the cutoff with sometimes explosive force!

[@scottgates4616]

@@Peter-House-Jr good point about the similarity to the table saw fence kickback. Also, he asked how the first piece could cause this issue. It is conceivable that a single piece could bind and kick if it were the right size to bind between the blade and something else like the dust collector. That would be dependent on the width of the workpiece and that it slides back behind the blade. I would think that is a plausible scenario.

[@danbob1650]

Ever have to trim off a small 45* cut. Don't hold on for your life. Quick release hand.

[@alexanderdavis2066]

There is a story about Henry Ford when designing the engine for the Model T. He had an issue with the engine block cracking. His engineers told him to make the metal harder. But he decided to go the other way and make it softer. This gave the block a little flex and solved the problem.

[@jimmytate7587]

when i was much younger, we discovered the ford flat heads had thick cylinder walls, causing uneven cooling and cracking. we started boring out at least 15 thousandths and cracking stopped.

[@calebcauthon1117]

people complaining of a defective product are karens?

[@ShopNation]

Product doesn’t randomly fail, takes an input. Are cars faulty if you drive them into a wall?

[@calebcauthon1117]

​@@ShopNation Mr Shop Nation, with all due respect to you -- you make great videos, and now products, all very cool. I've watched so many videos where you say essentially -- "I DONT FULLY KNOW WHAT IM DOING, IM JUST TRYING STUFF. IM JUST A GUY" which is great... and then here when you have actual regular guy woodworkers (maybe newbies) have your product explode in front of them, you cope by calling them lunatics just because they left an offcut in there. Ironic because on one hand you've titled the video to grab our attention by saying your product explodes and on the other hand calling these guys lunatics and karens because they were shocked the product exploded.

[@BLBlackDragon]

As someone who has been 3D printing for over a decade, I have a materials recommendation. Rather than using PETG, which is fairly brittle, you might try ABS or ASA. You will need to enclose your printing cabinets to increase the ambient air temperature (and maybe add a heater). ABS is an engineering grade material, with a little more elasticity than PETG.

[@paulpohopien709]

That was incredibly interesting. Thanks to Travis for being forthright and sharing. We need to be fair as we’ve all had to occasionally break out the epoxy to fix things on our tools….even the big name expensive brand stuff. Reminding to use caution is always a good idea, even if you didn’t purchase the dust collection

[@ericarnsdorff3441]

I had this happen to mine after having it on the saw only a couple of days. It wasn’t the scenario you described of letting off cuts buildup. Possibly it was related to my dust collection which I didn’t see fully explored in this video. An assumption was made that it was part buildup only but never investigated. The issue happened on mine with a piece of pvc pipe and a small offcut. It is possible the lighter weight and my 2” hose to my Makita dust extractor is what was happening. I definitely think that the dust collection aspect is possibly a factor.

[@ShopNation]

Great feedback, I’ll look more into that

[@ericarnsdorff3441]

@@ShopNation I replied in another comment but there are a number of things that should be considered prior to pointing to the user. It happens with completely normal use and without buildup of offcuts. While I do clear my off cuts, I wouldn't even consider that an offcut is misuse. The dust control is one variable that wasn't explored but there are a number of factors not considered but a conclusion was reached indicating it is the user.

[@nickkropat8857]

Time to market a high quality miter saw solution with zero clearance inserts and rear support ;) Love your channel man, been here since video-1 and loved watching your business grow

[@philshock3805]

It's a piece of cake with a non-sliding miter saw at 90º ... but when you add the sliding capability, miter and bevel cuts, it's fairly impossible to retain zero clearance. The best you can do is configure zero clearance for each situation but even that won't address the sliding aspect.

[@denoftools]

Design it, so the cattleguard is an easily replaceable sacrificial component. This clearly isn’t an issue with the unit it’s People being unsafe and causing kickbacks. Adding this design feature will allow you to address their issues and give you an additional product to resell them because they’re obviously going to do this over and over again.

[@cubsfaninga08]

Crazy, literally just happened to me yesterday with one of these collectors. Luckily I ordered the file and printed myself. Got another one going now and will be more careful going forward.

[@generationswoodcraft]

I’m highly impressed you’d make this video on KZbin. Most people don’t expose themselves honestly like this. Bravo. Also it’s Chads

[@karenmitchell6814]

I thought they were Kevin’s?

[@LeighHart]

@ShopNation Hi Travis, just installed my brand new v11 on my Bosch glider. First cut to test the dust collection was on a length of a 1x1.5” piece of pine; about 1” wide. It blew out the back on the first cut without even lifting the blade back up again. 😢. Entire right side of the chute was blown to bits. I’ll drop photos to the support mailer but wanted to make mention that I wasn’t cutting like a madman; the piece was lying flat not standing up; blade is basically brand new 80 tooth crosscut and dust collector is a 5hp shop vac.

[@MitzyGoose]

You should create a template for the opening of the zero clearance which follows the curve of the dust chute, while allowing the chute to pass through so that it is as close as practical. You can make it downloadable.

[@JeffreyMoon1974]

As an engineer, I appreciate the process you followed to duplicate the failure. Something you've discovered is that some users will push the limits of the tool. Others just don't follow proper technique. You can break almost any tool if you aren't careful. FWIW, I've had my dust collection chute installed since September and I've had no issues thus far.

[@bradfordprice3781]

Failure analysis: Chunk of hard substance, imparted velocity from saw blade, impacts hard, brittle plastic dust chute, causing dust chute to fail. Just nowing the shear number of times my miter saw has launched 1x1x1inch square projectiles into the metal guard at the back of my saw blade, I would suggest that he missed a requirement. Dust chute shall withstand impact from projectiles launched by rotating saw blade that impact the dust chute. Calculate impact force: napkin calculation yields 3.5 lbf Possible trade studies: 1) Strengthen the dust chute to withstand the impact of small, high velocity, hard substances. 2) Provide impact absorbent substances within the impact zone of the dust chute to mitigate the impact of the small, high velocity, hard substances into nondamaging impacts. Think of more possible trade studies, then add to this list. One of them will provide a low cost, reliable solution to his problem. Otherwise, someone is going to be injured by shrapnelized, printed plastic and this guy will be sued into oblivion.

[@timmietimmins3780]

Glad you made this video, but I don't see how not removing your offcuts makes you a lunatic. I work in production trim, and we never do. The simple reality is that why WOULD you if you don't need to? It's far faster to remove 4-5 blocks at a time, and there is space back there for the pieces to accumulate with stock dust collection on both the bosch and the dewalt. If you are making 1-2 cuts, sure. But if you are cutting an entire house of base, every factory end needs to be removed before you can cut the base into your required pieces. Because you are usually establishing an angle at the same time, you cannot remove so little material that there is no offcut, so a tiny triangular block is pretty standard to create. Why would anyone stop work to stick their hand under the saw to remove them? there is no reason to. They don't harm anything, and eventually, work their way to the back of the saw and off the table. It's not a deal breaker, we don't HAVE to let them accumulate, but we all do at my place of work, simply because there is no reason to remove them on a stock bosch saw, and they only need to be removed occasionally on a dewalt (the dewalt has a circular lip around the rear which means they won't clear naturally, but it still isn't a safety issue). And even if I cleared the offcuts, I work with co workers. Is it reasonable for me to vouch for the practices of all co workers, even those who might be on their first week or two on the job? I don't think that you necessarily need to redesign. It's a problem that can be worked around easily. But I REALLY REALLY recommend adding it to your product documentation, for both your online and in person offerings. Relying on your customers all knowing this video exists seems like a big issue. This is the sort of thing I would tell everyone I work with, but I am not going to do that if I don't know about it already, and I suspect only a subset of your end users will know this video exists. This is a very very foreseeable failure mode for people who use their miter saw as a miter saw, rather than how a lot of woodworkers use one, which is basically a chop saw. The difference being that square cuts taken off square stock do not have to leave tiny blocks, or blocks at all (remove less than one blade width from the end and all of it turns to dust) , but mitered cuts off of square stock MUST leave a triangular offcut, and it is not standard practice to make these pieces big, which would waste material. you cut the smallest triangle you can quickly and safely generate.

[@ShopNation]

All good points, and honestly this isn’t a good fit for that kind of environment. I have since added a reference to this video in the product documentation.

[@TetraCNC]

You should probably include a warning sticker on each unit, and paper stating that the user should clear the off cuts - sort of like McD's puts the hot coffee warning sticker on the cups now. There is always some nimrod out there who doesn't understand or take the time to both learn how to use a tool, but also use common sense. CYA

[@ChadsCustomCreations]

😂😂

[@adrianmack3]

100% this ^^^

[@DebsHill1]

if the part malfunctioned, then its a free replacement. not a karen, but that is basic customer service.

[@ShopNation]

But see that’s just it, a high velocity particle smashing into it isn’t a “malfunction”. It’s not like it randomly just shattered sitting there

[@gordonshute8816]

It looked like it was the little rubber piece at the bottom of the chute that was holding the small pieces of wood offcut in place, causing them to catch on the blade and get shot out like a rocket. I know that is a pretty important part of the dust collection system. But you might want to consider redesigning that part.

[@janodjano5828]

Karen reference Looking for the special flag in the background… 🇮🇲

[@TheChrisGreer]

Great video. I think you could make this happen more often by using a stop block to make a short cutoff piece.

[@mikegrier2829]

Great video, and great that you took the time to test the scenarios. I don’t own one of the chutes, but it seems clear from the testing that just keeping the offcuts, i.e. projectiles, out of the way solves the issue. Common sense…still important. 🙂

[@MaxTSanches]

I have found that 'Common sense' is not that common. :(

[@ericarnsdorff3441]

I’m not sure I agree that it is clear that off-cut buildup is the issue. This happened with mine and there were no offcuts except the one that broke the chute. All possibilities were not explored and it isn’t that difficult to replicate.

[@bobhobbs9369]

Hello Travis I have spent many hours over the past year or so watching you develop the miter saw dust collection system on various miter saws I'll have to say my hat goes off to you for all of your hard work in perfecting the system that you came up with I have this very same Bosch miter saw and have thought many times about ordering one of your dust collector but knowing me I would have it torn up on the 1st or 2nd cut so I have not ordered it as of yet but I'm considering it very strongly. I was drifting around the internet today and we rewatched this for the umpteenth time and came up with an idea of what I would do if I did order it. I know this sounds silly but I believe it might work, is once I would get it on hand I would wrap it with Gorilla tape again,,,, I realize this sounds silly but you know how tough gorilla so what do you think

[@JeffBurr]

I'd be really interested in seeing the results of a flexible material like TPU!

[@Cergorach]

Depending on how hard that piece is launched and how sharp the piece is, it might tear (or even cut right through), but at least it won't shatter. Of the 'normal' filaments used (PLA/ABS/PLA/PETG) It's already the least stiff (it has more flex to it).

[@Danirio96]

I don't see how letting the scraps get too close to the shute could be categorized as misuse... So I guess i'm with the Carlins and you should replace them for free...

[@clipless03]

Pro tip, maybe don’t insult your customers by calling them Karen’s on KZbin. As a potential customer, I was quite put off by this. It won’t stop me from buying something in the future, but it will make me think twice before doing so or recommending you store. I don’t believe the adage that the customer is always right, but when they’re wrong, it doesn’t do anyone any good to publicize it. Rise above that.

[@ShopNation]

I hear you, but my "Karen" comment was pointed at an extremely small percentage of customers. I'm just not of the belief that a customer gets to do/say whatever they want with impunity

[@clipless03]

@@ShopNation Fair enough. I agree that you had no obligation to send them a free replacement. I would have just let it lie and not call them out publicly. Nothing to be gained by doing so, and you might have rubbed a few people the wrong way.

[@CaBarry374]

@@clipless03 if your customer base is large enough, it can actually be worthwhile to dissuade bad customers from buying your products and being a net negative with PR and customer service costs.

[@CaBarry374]

Won't let me edit.. As someone who has had to fire customers before (you read that right), he's going easy on these guys.

[@travisriddle8747]

When mine shattered, I did not have any off cuts in the way, it was a single cut on a 2x2. The flap was touching the board then the piece shot back and and obliterated the chute. I wasn’t being irresponsible like Travis was in this video, andI wasn’t going fast on my cut. Please wear safety gear, and perhaps look at other dust collection options if there isn’t an engineered solution to this problem.

[@tinyswoodworking5953]

Travis thank you for addressing this problem, I will add the back fence on my saw and I will let my saw come to a complete stop for safety when cutting small stock, Question I recently purchased one of these but I forgot to check the outlet port dose it still connect to my Bosch vacuum ?

[@christopherwhite6173]

You absolutely should’ve given those people a free replacement, not at cost. Your product exploded dangerously and you’re calling them Karen’s for not wanting to pay for a replacement… lol

[@ShopNation]

That is implying it randomly exploded without any input. And I would completely agree with you if a high % of people experienced this…but it’s just not the case

[@paul5683]

There is a reason that the principal manufacturers don't use plastic in that part of the saw guard. Try making them out of something like aluminum, they will not shatter.

[@dsdragoon]

I like how you were able to duplicate the "failure". Was it a "failure" or did it actully prevent a missle-block from hitting someone or something behind the saw?

[@Bob-More-Than-Enough-WC]

My thoughts exactly!! I was wondering out the result without the shroud. Would it have ricocheted back into the users face?

[@rta3738]

Through this you have solved the mystery as to why the manufacturer doesn’t include more than a small flexible boot that’s of dubious benefit. They just don’t want to take on the liability this type of dust collection would cause. They’re going to make product decisions based on how people actually use the saw, rather than how the saw should be used.

[@marchingknight11]

I think you were really onto something with using TPU. Was hoping to see what impact it would have. I think it's worth a try. It may not be economical given the challenges of printing with flexibles but it's worth an experiment

[@layneinchains4047]

Seems like a lot more than %1 based just on the number comments I read… “ mine shattered” or “mine exploded when” seems to be the going theme here… probably not a good idea to publicly try to embarrass customers or making fun of the people that laid out money calling them Karen’s. And to assume all of these happened because of misuse or user error is not the right way to go about this in my opinion.

[@ShopNation]

Karen’s deserve to be emberassed. They are a very very small fraction of people. Vast majority are reasonable, we’ll intentioned folks, who I have empathy for. That’s the reason I made the video

[@simonr6793]

Great to see that you're able to keep your mind focused on the customer experience and continue to strive for a better product and overall the safety of your customers!!! As always buddy 💯% 👍 🇬🇧.

[@foxhallww311]

I bought the shoot for the Delta Cruzer. The shoot is amazing! Nice work Travis. However, the saw itself is a disaster. Delta used really cheap bolts to attach the shoot. So after cutting some 4x4s the bolts actually failed and stripped themselves. But I stopped using the saw because the arbor bolt kept coming loose and creating a really dangerous situation. I switched back ole reliable, the Dewalt DWS716. The dust collections is non-existant on that saw too. So maybe there is a future product idea for you.

[@CNCKitchen]

PETG is due to it's bad impact resistance not a great choice for that application. Send me a message if you wanna chat because that's an awesome product!

[@ShopNation]

Great! I will reach out

[@joeyherbers1918]

I’ve been a viewer since day one, like someone else said the transparency you provide of your own products is awesome. I think a lot of people would be intimidated to make a video like this of their own product. Just goes to show you have great confidence in your products. The issue here seems to be user error. Great job!

[@Adgum1]

Your comment about the Karens (Carlins) was in bad taste I feel, sounds like they were well within their rights to ask for a replacement. I'm not familiar with consumer affairs in the outside of Australia, but here in Australia those Karens would be entitled to a repair, replacement or refund under consumer law. Understandably you're a small business but that would not excuse you from your obligations to a customer when selling a product. Your product unfortunately had a major fault, it happens, but don't vilify your customers because of that. Regardless, I enjoy your videos and your designs, I have the Bosch mitre saw and one day look forward to purchasing the .stl file to one day print for myself. All the best.

[@ShopNation]

That would be like asking your car manufacturer to replace the bumper after you hit a pole - in this case

[@chrisp7957]

@@ShopNation if you hit a pothole with new tires would you expect a new tire if it busted ? You made it so stand behind it.

[@Adgum1]

@@ShopNation I don't think that is a fair analogy. You created a product that has been shown to explode in specific (yet predictably) circumstances to the point where you have made a video to understand the issue better. Sounds like your product so far hasn't been designed to stand up to reasonable and expected use of a mitre saw. I say reasonable and expected because the circumstances surrounding the incidences sound like they happened during fair and reasonable use of the product. I assume you have the ability to sell to customers in Australia, so i will quote Australian consumer law. Below is an abstract from the ACCC website highlighting the definition of a major fault. I believe your product is currently unsafe, has a serious problem, and can't be used for its normal purpose in these specific incidents. Highlighting the consumer rights for a replacement, refund or return. Abstract below; What makes a product problem major A major problem means the product: - is unsafe - is very different from the description or sample - has either one serious problem or several smaller problems that would stop someone buying the product if they knew about them beforehand - can’t be used for its normal purpose, or another purpose the consumer told the seller about before they bought it, and can’t easily be fixed within a reasonable time. Furthermore, I can understand your frustration, as this has only happened to a small percentage of your customers and as someone who has designed for a hobby I understand the hours of design, creativity and testing that went into this product. But ultimately it did fail, and that is on you to build and learn (you probably already know this as an engineer, most learnings come from failures), but it was still in bad taste to get annoyed at the customer for your products failure.

[@josephwetzel4288]

I learned this at a woodworking school that will make your problem almost non existent. When you start the blade and make your cut, don't ever lift the saw up out of the table until the blade stops spinning. This way the blade can't shoot anything that can cause harm to you or anyone else and you do t break or destroy anything

[@thorshuatus]

I don't lift the saw up until after the blade stops & it will also help with the cut quality.

[@joecahill8165]

Male Karen is a Chad

[@ChadsCustomCreations]

I think it’s actually Joe 😂

[@shmiggz]

Nope, it's actually ken

[@VanWelij]

This is why you can't trust all the reviews of these saws that complain about blade deflection, inaccuracies, etc. Some are honest and sincere, but so many are just loaded with hyperbole and people not willing to take responsibility. In all my 20 years of construction, about 95% of "complaints" from people usually boil down to user error. Like using a saw like a troglodyte and then blaming the tool. These are the same people that tell their neighbor who wants to do some minor DIY work that Ryobi is absolute garbage and they should buy nothing but Milwaukee M18 FUEL, because everything else is "junk". When used properly, I would wager that the chances of this happening are very slim. Nothing is perfect.

[@user-bj4lp3fr1o]

If your product broke, you should replace it at no cost.

[@mykalimba]

I got two minutes into the video and had to stop watching. Your take of labeling someone who thinks that a product should last longer than a minute without exploding as a "Karen" is... just a crap take. If you can't warrant your product to stand up to what is arguably _typical and average_ shop use, you shouldn't be selling the product. 👎👎 Despite what you may think, you're not "manufacturing" anything. You're selling 3D-printed prototypes to guinea pigs who happen to be paying you to beta-test your product. You should be giving these away, and you should be thankful for anyone who provides insightful feedback, especially that in the vein of "I did X and it made the product explode". I would never assume the liability associated with selling a product like this, but if I had customers reporting RUD of something I sold them, I would say "Thank you for you valuable information. Here is your free warranty replacement. Please don't sue me!" But what do I know? I'm just some Karen on the internet.

[@Dandoestilla]

Just because asked for a full and free replacement that doesn’t make them a Karen, I’m waiting on the makita collector but if it breaks I expect a full free replacement

[@ARepublicIfYouCanKeepIt]

Firstly, recognize that the (initially perceived) problem is rarely _the_ problem. Rather, what users reported was a symptom. The underlying, and completely preventable, cause is user error, not a product that's not up to the task. From an engineering perspective, failures occurred at predictable stress risers. These hard angles in the part can be reduced through the addition of fillets or by revising part geometry. From a materials standpoint, PETG/PETG+ should be more than sufficient for this application. Rather than print with 100+ infill, changing the infill pattern and/or varying infill density at critical points in the part would probably produce better results...while still reducing materials costs and printing time. Additionally, less exotic materials, such as nylon or perhaps ABS (though I detest printing with the stuff), could also improve results. With all that said, though, when attempting to make something "idiot proof", you'll more than likely just encounter better idiots! :) All in all, I believe that both your design, material choice and printing technique are all sound. You'd have to injection mold these parts to make them any better. So, until you're ready to invest tens of thousands of dollars on tooling, and outsource production, I'd guarantee the part and replace the 1% that fail at your cost.