Twilight Imperium 3 - The Fool's Gold of Board Games (Review)

[@BatteriesNotRequired]

So full disclosure, I've not played TI3, though I have been immersed in TI long enough to know the rough progression between the various editions. I've unfortunately only played TI4, but for good reason, as it is the best version yet. That said, I adore Twilight Imperium, and have in fact dedicated my KZbin channel to its lore. So that's my bias, but here are a couple of points in rebuttal: TI4 and TI3 are vastly different games. The next version did make it better. This doesn't mean that your critiques of TI3 aren't valid in themselves, but they shouldn't be leveled against all of Twilight Imperium. TI4 streamlines nearly every system TI3 offers, meaning less bloat, less edge cases, and less of a need for reference sheets (looking at you, tech tree). While the two games certainly share DNA, TI4 addresses the problems with TI3, and thus really shouldn't be dragged under the bus by the shortcomings of its predecessor. TI4 doesn't need expansions to fix it, or house rules to make it playable. The Imperial Strategy Card is fixed in TI4. The tech tree is fixed in TI4. Every mechanical issue you bring up is addressed by the Fourth Edition, as these were, even while TI3 was still the newest thing, known issues that needed fixing. I wont defend TI3, because again, I've never played it. But the point stands that TI4 fixes every mechanical issue you bring up in TI3, leaving only the issue of theme. And speaking of theme... The Tagline "Pax Magnifica, Bellum Gloriosum" doesn't meet "Peace is Good but War is Better," It means "Magnificient Peace, Glorious War," as in both War and Peace are beautiful and worth cultivating (And from an in-game perspective, vital in winning). My impression from this video is you went in expecting Space Risk, when in reality, TI is at its heart a negotiation game where each faction also can back up their negotiations with force, and sometimes if necessary, can simply take what they need. This is a common misconception for newer players, as plastic spaceships on a map of planets to conquer does something to our brains. But what TI is is much deeper, it is an actual empire-builder, where ignoring any aspect of your civilization will lead to ruin. Tech has to be researched, trade has to be engaged in, and battles need to be fought. The objectives are the important part of the game, and need to be focused on. Think of them as civilizational benchmarks, and the points they give progression towards Imperial prestige. Its more than just Space Risk, its a civilization. As for the idea that because TI is played infrequently, its flaws are simply forgotten between plays, even as the romance grows, I think its sort of the opposite. I play TI twice a month, and let me tell you, it is a game that benefits from familiarity. As you come to understand its systems, not only do games go way faster, but they are just better. You come to understand the delicate balance between objectives, tech, fleet-building, etc. Infrequent plays means never actually grasping what the game is about or how it ought to be played. Now, obviously this is a difficult ask, as the game is quite long (my group averages 6 hour plays), meaning the average board gamer can't invest the sort of plays necessary. TI is imo, a niche product, meant for people who can sink hours upon hours into it. People who want negotiation and combat, tech trees and politics. Players who want something expansive and overwhelming. After all, there is a good reason the game lasts as long as it does. Maybe its not for you, that's totally understandable. Its a lot, and it takes time and repeated plays, for the true brilliance of it to shine through. It is very similar to Dune in that way, as familiarity makes each game of Dune easier, as you learn the many weird yet thematic exceptions and caveats that make Dune great. So yeah, this is the best I can do to address your issues with Twilight Imperium, without writing an outline and transcribing your video, as I think I'll leave it here. Your points are valid, but I wouldn't discount the game just yet. If you ever get the chance, try TI4, but think of it less as Space Risk and more as a reeeaaallllllly crunchy Euro. Heck, if you're ever in Phoenix, I'd be happy to have you at one of my group's games, or maybe we could play online (if I can ever get comfortalbe on Tabletop Simulator). Alright, I gotta stop typing now, I'm gunna give myself carpal tunnel... Cheers!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I love this, thanks for articulating it all out for everyone :) I also love that I have a game of TI in my future in both Boston and Phoenix when I happen to be there :)

[@Heldermaior]

Perfectly said. I would even go as far as to say that TI is not space Risk. It is space diplomacy. In 5 or 6 player games you spend more time arguing about non aggression pacts and where to move your ships than in actual war. In a game as the Muaat I spent half an hour convincing my neighbour (the Letnev) that it would be best not to wage war as it would ensure that none of us would win the game and that he should solidify his slice of the galaxy otherwise the Hacan (my other neighbour) would win as most people were trading 1:1 with them and they were big and scary. In another game as the Mentak I willingly gave up on my post battle loot in order to show my commitment to stopping a frivolous war with the Creuss (I started it) so we could cooperate and go on to win the game instead of losing to a scary winnu. And so on and so on. In fact, whenever I teach this game I focus on the fact that this is not a wargame per se. It is not Axis and Allies or Risk in space. It is more about using war as a diplomatic weapon rather than an end in it of itself. You cannot conquer the galaxy. Heck, if you grow too strong tok fast you will face a coalition of convenience that will basically wipe you out from the face of the galaxy. How many Saar balls have been dealt with this way? Too many. Far too many... As for TI3 vs 4, if anything, TI3 needs even more familiarity than TI4. It is not as elegant and it is a bit clunkier but with the errata and some of the expansions, it can and will play very well. You need more familiarity with it though. All and all, TI4 is a smoother streamlined experience. I have a friend of mine though who hates TI4 compared to 3. He feels that the added complexity of TI3 allows for cleverer play. To each his own I guess.

[@BoardGameCo]

KZbin: We're getting rid of showing dislikes. Chris: Perfect, I know just what video I'm doing next!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Bring on the thumbs baybeeeee

[@TalenLee]

When I teach about games, I use the RTFM video explaining the rules for TI3 to show students the scope of what I mean by a 'heavy game.' I ask them to tell me how long they get through the video before they're overloaded, to get an idea of how much rules they can handle at once. I've never had a student manage more than half of it, and most tap out around 5. The 'speed up the process of learning this game' video is half an hour. I talk sometimes about the idea of a 'mile wide pie.' like how good can anything that vast be? How good can anything of that SCOPE be, or how BAD can it be? It all averages out and you're left with just the things that stand out in your memory. It can make it very hard to be a genuinely critical considerer of these complex arrangements. Eventually, your memory just gives up and gives you a few rare moments and you can't really construct the narrative of what happened, beyond 'that one time, Quirkle shot up my spaceship and in return I gave her a vial of space bees.'

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

The mile wide pie is a great descriptor. I love that. And the RTFM video is one of the best/clearest out there too, and yet it's still so dense and tough to get through if you're not in the right mindset.

[@Wolcik3000]

I heard that people that go to med school or law and make it through have unique ability to focus for hours on end and memorize bland stuff, which mean that they would go through TI3 then TI4 and could make a list of differences on their own ;)

[@SebastianChum]

If you are reading this and want to try TI3, please read up on what the veterans are saying (bgg has a living rulebook), play with the variant SC cards (or just modify card 8) and ignore all variants and additions (play as pure as possible, even consider removing some ACs and PCs from the decks). You really need to read a lot of stuff and make a lot of notes and reference sheets if you want to have a good time - but it is worth I think.

[@picton101]

I love TI3 for its chaos. The shonky systems all bolted together work for us as it makes the game seem more grounded in a recognisable world of geopolitics (but with a sci fi facade), whereas the cleanliness of 4th edition's systems makes it feel like its ONLY a game (and not a very good one). Even now, every year (minus covid), my friends and I set aside a day around Christmas to play a 6-8 player single session game of it. Some of my friends are gamers and some don't play games at any other point, but we all agree to spend 7-10 hours playing TI3 once a year. The madness that occurs, the narrative arcs, multiple wars in parallel, rushed treaties, unlikely alliances, unwanted politicing and the constant need to put out multiple fires means we make sure we set time aside for the following year to do it all again. TI3 isn't the best game, by far, but it's scale (in terms of available strategies, physical size at higher player counts and actual time requirement) means it offers us almost a mega-game experience at the tabletop level.

[@cfosburg]

TI is about using your military as a deterrent and bolstering your defense, not about a war of attrition. It is more of a Cold War and diplomacy to achieve your objectives. It is a game where you want to make the piece last as long as possible, make all the other players like you and trust you, and when you do slip up, to have them quickly forgive you. The magic comes through the objectives. The objectives force you and everyone else to do mean things and pick fights just to achieve a victory point. The fact that you need XY, and Z planets builds tension. It is that tension that can be so memorable as you plot, scheme, and foil your way to victory. Or at least try.

[@tacomuerte936]

I once listened to a podcast reviewer say TI has too many rules where it needs flexibility (politics, etc) and barely any rules where it needs them, ie combat which is generally chuck dice, consult techs, look at a chart and done. You’ve summed up my issues with TI perfectly.

[@bffoxjr]

I can tell you from experience, TI4 DOES have combat objectives. I was on the receiving end of a secret objective that was "Destroy another player's War Sun or Flagship." Yeah. That one hurt.

[@matthewholland2816]

This is the kind of game that makes my family say “Screw that! Where’s Uno?”

[@kylemoore7746]

Oh man, you already got some Joaquin Pheonix thumb salutes from the Twilight Saga fanbois!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I'm pretty disappointed that the guy who yelled at me and called me lazy for not including more pretty pictures deleted his comment. I was going to help him by directing him to the BGG page of photos to scroll through XD

[@diplod5000]

So what are the better games than TI3 then?

[@oerthling]

There's a fix for your critique: Play the first edition :) (BTW, I mostly agree with your objections)

[@paulspringer5551]

I won’t flood the comment section with rules minutae, but as a fan of the game for over 15 years, I sincerely believe that TI4?fixes each of the problems that you have with TI3. If you’re ever in the Boston area, I’d love to have you join our group for a game, and if you still come away feeling like it’s an overhyped hot mess, then I can respect that. Or we can bullshit about it over a beer if you’re going to PAX Unplugged. Or on a Zoom call even!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Haha, I would love that! Next time I'm in Boston and have a day, that sounds like a blast - truly. I'm sure the enthusiasm would rub off on me. Flood the comments away! Other than the strategy card #8, what do you think is the most significant change? The more accessible tech trees? I don't mind them in TI3, but I've heard they're significantly better in TI4

[@paulspringer5551]

@@RoomandBoardReviews The tech tree change is definitely welcome. The flexibility of just needing two reds and a green (or whatever) to get that new tech means that you’re more able to adapt if a specific red tech doesn’t fit into your plans anymore. I don’t rememebr if racial techs were in TI3 base, but those (along with race-specific flagships) definitely do a lot to make each race feel that much more distinct. They even threw in a few combat-related objectives. I lost my last game because someone played a direct hit they’d been saving the ENTIRE GAME to blow up someone else’s flagship and claimed their secret objective just before I could claim my last public one. To me, though, the most significant change is… well, everything. They really trimmed all the fat and gave us the best of what TI3 and its two expansions had to offer (except for leaving out Ambassadors. RIP.) in a game that takes easily an hour or two less, all things being equal.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

@@paulspringer5551 What are you doing to me, I feel the hunger!!! Haha

[@dcrbdh]

Zombicide is my abusive BF. Back in the day a friend brought it by who backed the 1st KS and it was awesome!! Well awesome compared to Last night on Earth which was my last abusive BF. so I bought the base game and played it with the wife and kids. I have fond memories of looking at my 4 year old and saying "what are you gonna do kid?" and he would look at me and pick up his dice and say in his little 4 year old voice "kill Zombies" . So yeah, backed the 2nd and 3rd kickstarter, and "what's this medieval zombicide?" um... backed that too. I have Zombie dogs, and prison zombies, and zombivers, and zombie birds, and zombies that their torsos crawl at you, and hospital zombies, and dogs that are on your side, and more heroes that are just slightly different from the ones from the last KS. But.... as I played it was like "don't forget the noise tokens", and "which direction do the zombies move?" and watching that one friend get way more xp and us going " you're going into the orange and I am still in the blue!!!" and "wait what happens if one of us dies? Does the scenario in the book say anything? No?" and looking at your friend with all the cool guns and abilities and companion and you have drawn a lame weapon for the 4th time in a row (not to mention your 3rd Arrrgh card). After awhile I was like "I am not having fun". Oh did I mention set up? "I need tiles 4f, 3d, 2f, 4e,.... what do you mean you can't find tile 4e?". I just wanna play the game not play setting up the game!!! . So it sits in the bottom of my gaming closet with other games sitting on top of it. The game isn't great, the memories of playing it with my friends and family was great. Oh and I'm a little salty that there is a 2nd edition coming and now a Marvel-ish one after I've spend $600+ Canadian dineros on Zombicide kickstarters.

[@dangllshow6758]

One of the comnent below summs up the reasons, why people loved this game wgen it was published in 2004 and how most of its flows were fixed in the new edition. One thing I personally want to address - objective cards do push you into conflics with other players (and it's up to you ,if you want to negotiate, trade or simply fight). Most of the game goals want you to expand your borders to achieve them (even own-4-tech as it requires tons of resources). And it bocomes especially though when somebody reaches 6-7 points and people start active opposed each other, trying not only to get something they need, but to deny their opponets from stuff, the require.

[@dangllshow6758]

The system of objectives blossoms, when you have more experienced players around the table. Every game is now a race, where one can't afford not scoring at least one objective per game round. You must think efficient, lean and not to start fights, you can't win.

[@darrentaylor3033]

Great to hear an alternative view. I have always been hesitant about this one because of the game length. I would feel pretty deflated if I spent a whole day playing this only to feel the way you do. I'll stick with Eclipse

[@DumahAtreides]

Yah, I've only played Dune, but not Eclipse or TI and I don't want to play it again despite being a massive fan of the book. It's way too uneven. I'm most interested in trying Eclipse to fill this kind of space theme epic game experience. I've also kickstarted Voidfall which brings more euro concepts in, plus coop option, and may be the best.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

It definitely wasn't a great experience, but I don't regret it because of the visceral memories it does provide haha. And at least my friends feel the same way so we now have this shared experience that we can commiserate over. I really need to try Eclipse, my neighbour has been enticing me with it recently.

[@noodlemans]

Definitely stick with Eclipse. It’s a much better game.

[@dougcerulli8826]

If the Star Trek theme appeals to you at all, I would also suggest Star Trek Ascendancy - a great thematic 4x game, that really shines in the exploration and formation of the galaxy.

[@DumahAtreides]

@@dougcerulli8826 Thanks! I'll keep an eye out to try it.

[@nipzie]

15 page errata FAQ for a third version??? That's all you had to say to me to convince me. Consider the video turned off now. The rest of the video was just for your own benefit.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Haha, as most of these videos tend to be ;)

[@foodflights1408]

Have you had a chance to play Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy? Just got that one in the mail a couple of days ago and I'm stoked about giving it a shot. Looks similar in feel to TI, but not necessarily in execution of all the gameplay elements. Of course, I just sent my wife to Canada, so we are now short a player in the game group. So, yeah.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Not yet, but my neighbour has it so I have a feeling we're going to play it soon! I'm excited to try it out.

[@oerthling]

The final recommendation made me smile. :) When you said earlier that an epic evening with 5 friends has its own value I immediately thought of Dune as the better alternative. ;) Sorry, couldn't subscribe in support of this video - did that already months ago And when I played TI 3rd years ago I had many of the same thoughts. 20% of VP just for getting a token is bad. And TI has not nearly enough direct conflict to fulfill it's promise.

[@Kojimalosophy]

have you played XIA ? do you have a video on your thoughts on this game?

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I've never played Xia but I'd like to - I know the channel Brews and Boardgames really enjoys it, I watched a solo play through that he did when I was contemplating Arydia.

[@eadbh5138]

You were so right

[@illuminatidorito4029]

Have you played the game of Dune??? I got it for next Christmas, havent yet opened it hehehe, but after looking through it, I think it looks great!!!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

It's FANTASTIC. I hope you love it!

[@judgemario]

I really enjoy TI4, especially with POK. Hope you find a space opera you enjoy too!

[@Sn0wG0lem]

I was gifted this game yesterday by someone who never played it because it seemed too daunting. Thank you for this review. You may have saved me many hours of disappointment.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Absolutely my pleasure. A game I thought did this idea really well (although it's expensive and a smaller print run) was Galactic Era. It really did everything I wanted TI to do.

[@me4pie]

The strategy cards for the base game are not great, you are right. Shattered empire fixes this. I've also cut the politics deck down so now politics really means something. Again this is another area shattered empire really helps fix with its strategy cards. This game is a pure indulgence, once a year, time to relearn type game. As a person who was raised on galactic empire stories, the sheer size and modular nature of this game is perfect for me. Lastly Shards of the throne adds political intrigue with a system of spies, representatives and assassinations. Paired with the slimmed down politics deck its everything I hoped it would be.

[@channingjones]

Thanks for the interesting review and saying some things nobody else seemed to dare mention before. I actually developed and published my own space 4X game after playing TI3 many years ago, because I wanted to have a better game of this type. That being said, TI4 does fix many of these issues, to some degree.

[@twentysides]

Thanks for this video! I don't enjoy TI3 at all. I tried about 3 games of it and sold my copy. TI4 is much better though. Still a matter of taste, but it's not so programmed in terms of which roles you should always select when you can, and it feels like a much more thoughtful production. Still, I would rather play Eclipse, Warpgate, and Gaia Project in the same time as it takes to play TI4 once.

[@michaelb7763]

I played this game recently and my experience pretty much mirrored your own. Really did feel like we were all just waiting our turn to get the 8th strategy card and our 2 VP. In a game where you spend so much time building space ships, there was very little real fighting, and the fighting that did take place just left a bad taste in everyone's mouths.

[@foodflights1408]

My wife agrees with you on pretty much all of this. Which is why she's on her way to your house right now. I have no room for that kind of nefarious negativity in my life. And right before Thanksgiving, too. Well, that 20-pound turkey ain't going to eat itself. Later!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Ahahahaha I'm sorry to have caused that rift, but I guess it's better you know now!

[@foodflights1408]

@@RoomandBoardReviews Oh, I knew before, but to have you, an obvious communist, bolster her beliefs was just too much.

[@Wolcik3000]

@@foodflights1408 obvious communist? not just cannadian socialist?

[@foodflights1408]

@@Wolcik3000 He could be both after this video...

[@Wolcik3000]

@@foodflights1408 can you point me at timestamp that shows this? I dislike communist so I would like to know

[@Wolcik3000]

love the video - again like with 7th continent - you saved me a lot of money

[@morgaknightgames]

Twilight Imperium has never interested me for whatever reason. Then again, I went gameplay all in on ISS Vanguard so what the heck do I know. 😅

[@neem377]

As a fan of TI could not agree more, and with so passionate a fanbase its good to have the negatives put out there. Different game groups and different people want things and TI is a LOT to deal with. I tend to save it for folks who love the game Diplomacy and get excited about how dumb it is. However dragging people thru that slog if the problems are road blocks may turn them off from other Grand games they might actually enjoy and that would be tragic.

[@Kojimalosophy]

oh well, am I glad you just saved me of what would have been wasted money and time, thank you for this review!

[@JoshCruddasMusic]

A disappointment? I've heard that before... :(

[@mylor1066]

Dune and Eclipse for me please.

[@rocklee5090]

Also I never thoughtthere would be full fledged TI haters out there lmao why is this guy SOOOO SALTY

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

I'll be honest, i feel like any war game that needs 3 players is probably a bad war game. It means some races are stronger and will destroy other ones in 1v1, so you NEED a 3rd player to protect the weaker one and it turns into a game of diplomacy and not war. So, out of all epically long war games with 2+ players theoretically best one should be Forbidden Stars.

[@majaiofdreams5486]

I want to play this so badly, just to say that I have played it. It looks so great "in theory". But most everyone who has played it that I ask says they regret the wasted time.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

Was kind of disappointed in TI too. It feels like in this game you doesn't want to go to war, because it will give your other neighbor opportunity to attack you while you are weak and it seems like person who is not fighting is winning. So, to win you kind of want to be last person who joins the fighting and it turns into a waiting game which is boring. Your point where you say that uniqueness of the race is destroyed by new technology kind adds to my idea that i don't like civilization building games. At least with evolving technology, if game have them then technology path is most likely way to win. In review of Civilization Board Game i've watched recently reviewer said that technology victory is the most common.

[@iwatchDVDsonXbox360]

And Putin actually very peaceful man, he tried talk sense into his opponents for almost 10 years. He is still trying. In his place i probably would have invaded Ukraine long time ago and would not even tried peace talks untill Ukraine is unconstitutionally surrendered.

[@TabletopFamily]

Ever get TI4 to the table? Lots of people say it really is better. Ti4 is currently 5th on bgg 22,000 reviews

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I never have, and probably never will unless I have a group that is determined to showcase the best TI experience ever. I've read through the changes of TI4 and I don't think it's enough to change my opinion on it. I'd MUCH rather take that time and invest it in Galactic Era or Dune

[@TabletopFamily]

@@RoomandBoardReviews fair enough.i am hoping to get voids of the empire 2, eclipse second dawn, to the table this winter.

[@AtTheTableGames]

man, im a fan of your channel, but as a husband to someone who, before me, was in an actual abusive relationship, i gotta say: this analogy is super not it. feels like there's a way to convey how you feel about this game without minimizing people who've experienced actual physical, mental, and emotional violence.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Really true, thanks for pointing that out, I'll change it

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Turns out I can just trim that line out of the video too, so it's in the process of being processed by KZbin. Thanks for mentioning it, much appreciated and you're right - I try my best to avoid any language that should require a trigger warning, because I feel like it has no place in an entertainment setting, or at least if we're going to mention issues like that have a disclaimer at the beginning, but I wasn't as cognizant as to how that might affect someone this time around.

[@scottarmstrong8178]

Came here to say the same. Not something to joke about.

[@mylor1066]

@@RoomandBoardReviews I thought it was a joke, a good pun. Made me laugh, that's comedy right?

[@Andy-td4sj]

@@RoomandBoardReviews prop to you for accommodating and listening to your viewers. Personally I am perfectly fine with that level of comedy.

[@Wolcik3000]

should I just stay with my Eclipse 2nd... or invest into Clash of Cultures Monumental instead ;)

[@dougcerulli8826]

I agree, Clash of Cultures Monumental edition is a good game. As I mentioned as reply on another comment, I would also suggest Star Trek Ascendancy as a very fun 4x game.

[@Wolcik3000]

@@dougcerulli8826 Star Trek Ascendancy has a big flaw - it was never translated so I wouldnt have people to play with

[@jonathanpickles2946]

A real mess of a game would be TI 1 or TI 2. Version 3 came out at the height of the period when FF released games as a beta test and the first expansion fixed them. They are much better now and usually release finished products! All of your criticisms are very valid. I enjoy the game but do not really feel it repays the time it takes to play it. So maybe once a year with someone else's copy. I would try 4e if you can get a game with someone else's box. I think you have to enjoy the process of empire building rather than competing at the game. Decades ago we played far worse games for just as long so there are lots of levers to play with in this even if they it's a dodo race in the end.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Oh yeah, I was looking into the 1st and 2nd edition to see how much had changed, because I felt like the changes from 3 to 4 were fairly minimal, and it's like it was a completely different game back then. The 3rd edition is such a wild remake I would barely call it a 3rd edition but feels like a whole new game entirely just with the same world - or at least from my preliminary investigations.

[@jonathanpickles2946]

@@RoomandBoardReviews 1and 2 e were standard for the time MP wargames. I don't really remember them tbh. There was a similar game called Throne World from om Lehman. 3e incorporated sexy new euro mechanics and VP - role selection after Citadels was like Roll & Write is now (except fun). 3e was the same sort of thing if you look rom far enough away but as you say a massive change. The Imperial card was very dumb. I saw a friend play it with 5 newer players and he took Imperial twice in the first 3 turns. He had won but it took another 6 hours to prove it.

[@douglaspearson4853]

I went into you video wanting to hate it but I didn't. I disagree thats its a bad game. I do think you have some valid points. But a game is what you make it. My biggest problem is spending a lot of money on a game and its expantions only to find out they are comnig out with a new an better edition and no upgrade pack for the people who already spent a ton on it. FFG has done this a couple of time to me. I do feel a little ripped off. That being said I do agree Combat is minimal. I have and idea what if they made a shorter game centered around a war. Cut out some things, still have the production, conquering planets, Set up scenairos. Have Alliances & Betrayals like Diplomacy. I think it could speed up the game a lot more action and maybe save the old game?

[@ryandavison27]

I feel attacked! This one hits right in the nostalgia. It sounds odd, but this is the game that got me started on board games and I used to play it all the time. That being said, you're right. I have not played this in over a decade as there are much better games that are easier to teach and table. It is a flawed game that looks so much better through the lens of "the good old days".

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

haha, I mean, credit where credit is due, I think this did pave the way for the "accessible heavy' genre, if we can call that a thing. I think it should be right up there as top 10 most influential games of all time - that actually might be an interesting list to consider. But there's no price on nostalgia, I have had enormous amounts of fun with flawed games that I wouldn't trade for the world. Well, okay I MIGHT trade them for the world, the real estate value alone would be off the charts, but that's a tangent for another day :)

[@TabletopTussle]

I would also say that you don't need a ton of rules to have a deep game, I think the quality and synergy of your rules is more imperative than the quantity. With TI4 people still say you need to get the expansions to really enjoy it. It is just an overhyped mediocre boardgame. IMO.

[@TabletopTussle]

I have played the 4th edition with all the expansions and it is so overrated and I think people feel like they will be looked down on if they don't like it. The game says there are so many ways to play but it feels pretty similar each time to me. I have played with 5-7 players and I don't really find it better one way or another. There feels like dumb limitations and a bunch of aspects that just slow the game down without adding any value. I found myself thinking that the game is okay when you switch around the rules with a bunch of house rules...but then I realized that means the game is not really that good it is just salvageable with time and effort. Feels like I shouldn't have to do extra work just to make the rules fun/tolerable. Not worth the extreme amount of time and effort. I agree it just falls flat.

[@joshuag7027]

I love it and it's a once a year game for me, and I look forward to it, but its the one game I go all out for in planning/etc... I never considered it combat game, more of a tug of war/diplomatic game and I think that having that expectation helped me and the people I played with going into it. I agree with you on a lot of points, objectives can feel arbitrary, and laws/voting can fall flat, I'll have to give Dune a shot though heard a lot about it!

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Oh yeah definitely give Dune a shot! I think it's fantastic. Have only gotten to play it few times, and be prepared for another long long time, but it's one of those games that I'm so excited to get back to.

[@stenolebrretzen675]

My opinions on TI4 mirror yours about TI3. It has several parts which feel over-engineered and don't work well together with other parts which seem slapped on for laughs. An example of this is combat. 80% of the rules describe combat. 80% of your time is preparing for combat. But when combat actually happens, it is subverted by cheap action cards. Even if 80% of your time is spent on military buildup, the game is actually about weird random objectives. But in lieu of knowing what those objectives are, your job is just to make yourself ready for everything. I won't go as far as to say that the game is awful. There are better ways to spend 8 hours though. The game's biggest "flaw" is that it has a kingmaker problem. It is quite frustrating for the contenders to win that ultimately the actions of the losers will decide the outcome of the game.

[@Wolcik3000]

I failed - I have boight TI4 after reprint cause it wad available

[@MrJmarzetti]

Not only this review has put me off from ever purchasing Twilight any edition due to length of game play. As,a lover of variety, I could easily play 5-6 different games in one 8 hour sitting and enjoy every minute. If invited, I'd probably give it a try, just to say I played it, but most likely it'd be the last time too.👍

[@rocklee5090]

This guy is a hater, TI is one of the greatest game out there it is truly epic

[@Wolcik3000]

@@rocklee5090 hater gonna hate, Taylor

[@TheLunatiched]

This is the most positive negative review I've ever seen.

[@Simon-xb6ov]

First let me start by saying how much I enjoy your content, @room and board, and that you are perfectly great without a catchphrase. Secondly, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and not every game is for everyone. And lastly, that you are wrong :P. Or perhaps wrong is too strong of a word, and I should instead say your argument is fundamentally flawed. To conclude at the end of playing TI3 that TI4 is unworthy of your time is similar to doing a 2021 review of a fax machine, at the conclusion of which, claiming that thus email is a terrible system of communication. I would not recommend that someone play TI3, and I will note that sometimes you get what you pay for (i.e., people are upgrading to TI4 for a reason). Obviously, no game is perfect and TI of any edition will miss that mark. Some of the criticisms that you mention are ones that I also feel, such as the lack of the game sufficiently rewarding you for being militarily aggressive; when one of my friends complains after I attack them, I inform them I didn’t build all these fleets to have them sit in dry-dock. There are the benefits of increased resources, but actual points awarded are few and far between. I believe the only one I can think of is in the second tier where 2 points are awarded if you control another player’s home planet. Another excellent point you made is about the thematic disconnect between basically resource dumping in exchange for points. In regard to your remark regarding there being an insufficient number of "impactful" laws, I feel like that criticism only makes sense at the surface level. Would it be cool if every law radically altered the fundamentals of the game? Sure. Would you want to play an incredibly complex and long game where the rules changed to that degree every round? No, or at least, I would not. Those points aside, there is a great time to be had playing TI4, and my gaming group still talks about moments that happened years ago from our games. I do think a part of what contributes to the magic of TI4 is what you said: spending an entire day (hopefully just 8 hours of actual playtime) with some of your favorite people, as you slowly and systematically take everything they hold dear. Would I want to play it every weekend? No, but I do like to get in an annual game if I can with my group. While I would love to invite you to our next game, Canada is a little far from us, so instead I will make some suggestions that I hope will improve your enjoyment of future TI games: 1. Get TI4 2. Everyone needs to know the rules before the day of the game. I know that it is hard to get people to do things beforehand, but it will greatly increase your enjoyment of the actual all-day event if you can prevent a third of it from becoming looking up and reading rules 3. Play the game at max player count. If you can’t do that, at least avoid a situation where there is an odd number of players. It kind of hoses someone, and that’s not a lot of fun.

[@diceythings]

I could not disagree with you more and feel that you miss the point of the game. TI is about the journey, it tells a story, it's meant to be savored throughout. Battle (which seems to be one of your gripes) is supposed to hurt. You are supposed feel apprehensive before committing your troops to battle. You could cut out the majority of the game if that were not the case. TI is an elaborate form of Diplomacy (the game). If you are not playing it like that, you are missing the point.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I definitely agree I went in thinking it would be about battle and realized early on that was not the case, which is why I emphasized that in the review. But I LOVE games with negotiation and diplomacy, which I'm sure also contributed to my feelings of being let down by there not being any points of negotiation or diplomacy that were particularly interesting or story worthy. I agree, the game is best with the stories it generates, that's why I think the best part about it is the length, and the memories that are created. But my hypothesis is that it is those particular people that created those memories because they were enjoyable to be around, and because over that length of time something is bound to happen, rather than it being a direct product of the gameplay itself.

[@diceythings]

@@RoomandBoardReviews I guess we are saying the same thing. Diplomacy, Werewolf, Ravine, and many others may be considered "good games" even though mechanically they are lacking. So the question is, what makes a "good game"? Is it your enjoyment of it and the experiences it invokes; or is it its cohesiveness, art, and mechanics? Or some combination...

[@koonfasa]

Hey, where’s your Galactus?

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

I know!! It must have gotten lost in the mail!

[@deepspaceexplorer4265]

Click bait...

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Completely incorrect. I suggest a dictionary. The title presents a hypothesis and the video explains said hypothesis.

[@andrewww3389]

I've played TI4 twice, a 4 player game that took 6 hours and a 6 player game that took 11 hours. While I appreciate the experience and I had a fun time playing it, i dont think I'll ever play it again for the points you made. The objective cards are infuriating, they are way too random, someone can draw an easy one for a VP and then I draw one that is impossible to complete. I loved the tension around trying to take over mecatol rex, and I love that there is little to no downtime in such a long game. But ultimately I found it difficult to plan because the board state changes so drastically from turn to turn. I know you can get better at this game with experience, but I DO NOT want to play this game 10 more times at 6-12 hours each game to get better at it.

[@Heldermaior]

The constant microcuts make me hate this video.

[@DuraheLL]

Queef pie

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

What stunning discourse you bring to the table!

[@RobertoLuisDelRosario]

As someone who plays Twilight Imperium 4 weekly I want to say familiarity makes the game better. Id rather spend 10 hours playing TI4 each week than playing 5 or 6 different games each week. Politics IS everything...and your ships enforce it. Just last week we spent 30 to 45 mins discussing how everyone in the table can be happy so that they wont vote on a result that will make the player who played politics rider get the speaker token and make me pick last. The moment was made even better when we talked everything out and didnt have to result in war. TI4 feels like real war....where even as a war faction you feel that war is bad and youd rather try and play nice with everyone as long as the moment calls for it. I wish you could see it our way man. You are still missing out. I still feel like there is a switch that can turn on for you to like this game especially in high player counts.

[@kraziel]

Yeah.. if you're going to be as lazy as not to show barely any imagery of the game, and instead show your face through-out the whole 99% of the video, on a REVIEW of THE GAME, then good luck. It's a fucking board game. Not a tabletop RPG with just and paper. It has components, and that's a big thing about the whole experience, and you are barely showing it.

[@Wolcik3000]

I guess you don't listen to podcasts

[@petergross7235]

The Twilight Imperium Fanatics are sending their assassins as I type this I am sure. Is your "go bag" ready? Thanks for the honesty. This is on my bucket list of games to play (at a convention). But owning the "coffin" for a chance play onc a year....no thanks.

[@RoomandBoardReviews]

Haha they have found me yet, I try to stay on the move!!

[@noodlemans]

👏👏👏👏👏👏 Thank you for saying it. This game is trash. There are better 4x games out there that play in less than half the time.

[@judgemario]

I really enjoy TI4, especially with POK. Hope you find a space opera you enjoy too!