Twilight Imperium 4th Edition | Shelfside Review

[@Shelfside]

Hey guys! A note on trade goods: you can't actually spend them during the trading phase without the bribery action card. The reason why we bring this up in the video is because it seems to be our house rule that has been so heavily used that we thought it was part of the game. Thanks to people on reddit and in the comments for pointing this out!

[@Shelfside]

Tbh I don't even remember anyone ever using trade goods for influence in our games lmao -Daniel

[@SilentNSly]

Hacan racial ability allows spending trade goods for votes too

[@Shelfside]

@@SilentNSly you know, that might be where I got that rule confusion from! Thanks man! -Ashton

[@FrankRiker]

This is one of your best reviews I've seen. Y'all nail the chemistry and pacing between your turns speaking.

[@SpaceCatsPeaceTurtlesPodcast]

Nice review! Obsessed with that Intro cinematic. Who's ready for Twilight Imperium: The Movie?

[@2006louisb]

Only stumbled upon the channel recently but absolutely love what you guys are doing ! I find the way you break down your reviews by recommendation and personal preferences really helpful and think you get the depth and humour spot on - keep up the great work!

[@majkus]

"Fire at will!" [shift to Park]. Gotta love it.

[@CapriciousMissK]

I had finally gotten a group who wanted to play TI4 so I bought it in March, just before lockdown. :( Still looking forward to this!

[@tims3927]

Hope you got to it by now. Just played a game in between the years and had a blast :) Enjoy!

[@KMReviews]

This is a game ive always wanted to play but just don’t know enough people that will play. Ughhh

[@tylerbyers9895]

There is an active group on discord that play online through table top simulator.

[@raffaelsteinmann7296]

Hey, I know I'm a bit late. But if you are able to get a group of 3 together from time to time, it's totally worth it! You don't need to play with 6 to get the full experience, it plays great at 3-6 (3-8 with expansion ;)).

[@leostmark]

Thanks for the review. Previous reviews I've watched have tended to be quite dry, but yours really gives a sense of how it feels to play the game and get immersed in it.

[@marcuswilliams8762]

Great to see more content advertising how great this game can be. It’s a 10/10 for me to, this is my favourite game full stop, whether I’m sitting in last place or keeping up with the pack. When playing it actually takes us most of the day to play, but it sure doesn’t feel like that when playing. Treat it as a special occasion, bring some snacks and banter and a few good stories from your last few days and it’ll be a blast. As long as you try to gain 1 victory point per turn you’ll keep yourself in the running, especially if you gain those extras from time to time and therefore it won’t become a chore and you’ll be right in it. Plus, in my experience you can still win without getting Mecatol Rex, so it doesn’t necessarily need to be a race for Mecatol or an attrition around the centre of the galaxy. If you can’t get six others, play at three, it’s still great. If you want the complete experience, there’s always social media for nearby potential players you’ll be surprised on who’s interested out there if you’re fired up enough to do it. My biggest barrier at the moment is Covid so it has hampered my gaming of this awesome game (wish there was a two player variant) and dream of getting it to the table once more.

[@Wh0isTh3D0ct0r]

"Am I not turtle-ey enough for the turtle club?"

[@AmigaFanatic1980]

Great review, good amount of info and humour, well presented, am enjoying this channels content

[@lemonsorcerer3303]

You cannot vote with trade goods without using the Bribery action card.

[@Shelfside]

I didn't even know this was a thing that wasn't actually a thing because I exclusively use my trade goods for flagships, war suns, and public objectives lmao -Daniel

[@lemonsorcerer3303]

@@Shelfside You should probably add a text indicating that in the video, as to not confuse new players.

[@tylerfransson9049]

My favorite game of all time!! Love your guys channel. One of my new favs

[@winghong3]

That was one of the most fun intro I had seen for your boardgame reviews! XD Keep up the good work :)

[@Shelfside]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@gyroh6593]

Gosh I hear so much about this game now that I’m into board games and stuff. And this is one of those games that intimidate me because of the long play sessions I hear about, but I know that once I get myself to try it I’m gonna be hooked like I was with Catan Starfarers

[@Shelfside]

Pretty accurate lol. Though imo the intimidation goes away real fast if you ever manage to get the game going because actually playing it is fairly straightforward. This newer 4th edition actually plays faster than a lot of other grand-scale area-control games, and we frequently have games last 4-5 hours even with 6 players. Basically, even though the box looks all big and scary, it's actually less daunting than say, Game of Thrones or Dune, which are games that can actually end up taking most of, if not the whole day to play. I've never played Twilight Imperium with anything less than 6 players though, so I'd imagine it speeds up further with smaller player counts. -Daniel

[@StellarJustinJelly]

zeeky boogy doog.

[@gyroh6593]

@@StellarJustinJelly man of culture

[@recowabunga7200]

upvote for the effort of the intro :) i liked that

[@aditmaryadi6678]

Shelfside before sleep? Perfect timing. Especially TI4! My favourite game all the time

[@wicaksonoadi1035]

Good to know your #1 bro

[@aditmaryadi6678]

@@wicaksonoadi1035 mas Wicak is everywhere

[@CandBT]

Imagine setting up the game without playing it. Such a blue balls move

[@MrJZ27]

hahahahah

[@vj7248]

Started my day off watching an Endless Space 2 review, finishing the day off with Twilight Imperium 4th edition review. Ill have to play one of those.... Some day

[@ScarriorIII]

ES 2 is similar to Stellaris and TI 4, but don't blend them in your mind. ES 2 factions are far more asymmetric, and I think you'll find it more accessible than Stellaris. Obviously, neither are as good as TI 4.

[@Maravillante]

0:16 kills me Also great review, this is my second time watching it after and now I understand better after reading the rules... can’t wait to get, just need to save for ir

[@bluebooper]

Amazing review. You guys are consistently offering top tier content, love to see it

[@Shelfside]

Thanks man! We definitely got more coming out for ya guys, more discussion on TI4 by year end :) -Ashton

[@DarthNVious]

Me and my son played 1v1 with 3 randomized factions each with no neighboring allies. He got Jol'Nar, Sardakk, and XxCha; whereas I got Hacan, Sol and Mentak. Early on I dominated the board as I got to synergize the control of trading. His Sardakk and XxCha were hanging by a thread. However, his Jol'Nar managed to crawl towards and controlled Mecatol with with 4 Dreadnoughts (which I learned later on was really bad since he had the Industrial secret objective) and was at also slowly gaining technological leverage. I had wanted to take totally take out Sardakk's homeworld using my Mentak since I had the Conqueror secret objective but got wiped out due to his PDS + passive combat bonus ability. He negotiated for the release of my leaders Gila and Harruch if I would approve his trade negotiations. XxCha was already hemmed in and pretty much taken out so I only needed to ready my Sol for a massive invasion on Jol'Nar's homeworld. Hacan with Usurper secret objective was trying to close in on Mecatol which was very hard as there were 2 PDS installed and Jol'Nar already obtained Graviton Laser System + Magen Defense Grid. Before the turn Sol would have smashed Jol and Nar, my son exploited the Sol faction's dependence on command counters with Signal Jamming action card (which I tried to Sabotage, and he used Sabotage on my Sabotage) and so were left with no significant actions. Mentak drawed Ixthian Artifact but the roll was really bad and Mecatol remained solid plus he even got the 2 tech upgrades necessary to secure the victory points for Public Objective II 9 tech upgrades. He is merely 13 years old and I am quite proud of him for defeating me in such strategic fashion.

[@Shelfside]

awesome how you got the game to work on a 1v1 level! Jol Nar techs are pretty nasty huh -Ashton

[@FiLtheThriL]

Like the new guy. My favorite board game channel right now. Would be cool to watch a live play stream some time. Thanks for the upload.

[@FiLtheThriL]

After watching more of your videos, I now do not see him as new guy.

[@Shelfside]

Wait a sec I've been here for the entire ride hahahaha -Daniel

[@FiLtheThriL]

@@Shelfside Haha, I realized when I started checking out the channel more. I'd only seen a couple videos. (the tier list one and the levels of boardgamer) My bad. You're a badass.

[@pauljones2093]

Amazing intro man!

[@shortydancer]

Dude, if I ever get a group and able to play this bad boy, I think I’d complete my board game journey.

[@ScarriorIII]

Would love to see ur take on Forbbiden Stars. Its got a similar command token system that has a super crazy chess level mind game where u have to guess token order.

[@Jesentra]

Awesome review! Have you guys used any of the new Omega update mechanics/scenarios? You should plug that the Living Rules is constantly being updated, too!

[@Shelfside]

We haven't used any of the Omega update stuff! Will have to try to play with that once the pandemic ends. Funnily enough, we talked about the living rules but decided to cut it out to make the video closer to the 35 minute mark. FFG has done a great job with that though, and I'm waiting for new components that fix typos and balance stuff! -Ashton

[@kyleweeks2941]

You didn't talk about the new expansion that comes out this November! I've preordered my copy and I cant wait!

[@ksugihar]

Im just curious how you reconcile the juxtaposition between this being an epic, 6hr long space opera filled with twists and turns and politics against what you said at 30:11 - the final game comes down to just the last action card. It seems like it might feel like "Well I guess the last 6 hours was a waste because it all just came down to this last card anyways".

[@SP_A_C_E_D]

They mean that players are never really completely out of the game. Its common for some players to be able to score multiple VPs in a round. Last game I played it came down to who was able to get the Imperial Strategy before the other in that last round, making who Speaker is, and who played Politics Strategy beforehand important.

[@schwamieboy1]

awesome...but where is the "Eclipse" review?

[@lu7ky]

TI4: We got space lions, turtle people, plant and virus factions, then there's the faction of Sol, they're just humans. Got to love the Shelfside humor still, still patiently waiting for the Scythe review but of course do that at your own leisure, a lot (or all) of the "encounter cards" have some humor you will likely enjoy. I still want to pick this up when I get better financial security, thank you for the review, I'll be watching the PoK expansion review next. Also Points for the Starship Troopers mention!

[@Shelfside]

Haha thanks man! Maybe I should just play sol next time and just laugh at how I'm playing humans :) Daniel has acquired scythe from one of our friends, so that is on the radar to do at some point! Also Starship troopers is one of the best movies ever! -Ashton

[@lu7ky]

@@Shelfside Starship Troopers (all 3 plus the animated movie) are my favorites. Scythe is very nice due to the subtle but ever present faction differences (opposite of sync(s)). I actually just finished a game vs the built in A.i. (Automa) and lost by 2 points but could have won the next turn (mine). I have not gotten into it's expansions yet but I recommend the legendary box as it can hold all the components of the main game and the 3 expansions (plus the modular board if you are good).

[@Shelfside]

@@lu7ky awesome, thanks for that, will be diving into Scythe the next month or two if time permits. Also needa watch starship troopers again! I've only watched the first as well, I should check out the rest. -Ashton

[@lu7ky]

@@Shelfside Nice, thanks for the upcoming Scythe review, I will be watching that for sure!.

[@bgt2701]

I bet you already played so many games of TI4 before this review, which makes this review super legit!

[@Shelfside]

Lmao I actually personally wished I'd played a few more games before making this review because I'm a giant memelord and keep doing dumb shit all the time so I wanted to get in a few "tryhard" games. Thankfully we got multiple people behind the Channel cause Ashton-who owns the game and thus is more familiar-is able to provide a more complete picture. That being said though, I've definitely lost count of how many games we've played because before the pandemic it honestly felt like a monthly occurrence for us and the homies. -Daniel

[@IslanKleinknecht]

Right now my favorite is the Clan of Saar, but I really want to try the Arborec sometime.

[@heijewubs988]

Agreed. 100%. Only real negative point is I don't get to play it enough.

[@TheJDough1]

A less captivating “Shut up and Sit down” but still solid. A bit more refining and you will be a top channel for this

[@Shelfside]

cheers, new content coming out all the time :D -Ashton

[@paulbrown5937]

Awesome review! My favorite game of all time haha. I love the Nekro virus, lots of fun combos to do. Are you aware of the Tabletop Simulator community at all? Do you plan to do a review of the expansion in a few months when it comes out?

[@chickenstripzz]

I know this paul brown.

[@Shelfside]

Nekro Virus is super scary because of their tech acquisitions and I love that about them! We're planning on going over the expansion when it comes out! -Ashton

[@MastaJAG]

I'm 1 minute in, and amazed this doesn't have more views

[@Shelfside]

hey thanks man! We're really looking forward to PoK here :) -Ashton

[@paulstaker8861]

would love to hear ur thoughts on Space Empires 4x butt ugly but plays quite nicely

[@Esauofisaac]

Easily my favorite game. I had a TI group that would play this once a week for months, it was a lot of fun and you got a better feel for the balance of everything. As such when talking with others I tend to say that Eclipse is the better balanced overall but that TI is the more memorable. It's definitely my favorite game. I haven't been able to play with the expac yet, so right now I feel like TI3 with both expansions is better, but we'll see.

[@septimustavi9352]

Muat are fun, especially if you have a supernova near your starting area.

[@Shelfside]

yeah man, Muuat are on the must-try list after covid! Their PoK stuff looks CRAZY fun -Ashton

[@septimustavi9352]

@@Shelfside It is crazy indeed...last time I played someone blew up one of my system's that had my Flagship with 3 dreadnaughts in it :(

[@mikemetzger1229]

Favorite races?! Yssaril. Space goblins will always hold a place in my heart. They aren't dirty, just sneaky....

[@Shelfside]

one of my friends that always seems to get slightly more VP than me is a Yssaril player... that being said I need to try Yssaril one day, they seem mad fun! Cheers man! -Ashton

[@Shelfside]

The war sun dudes are such stupid memes despite being so bad I love just parking war suns in places they shouldn't be lmao. Plant guys are also hilarious for producing from ships hahaha -Daniel

[@mikemetzger1229]

@@Shelfside The war sun guys got fixed, so now they are crazy fun. Not only do they start with an awesome ship and can park in supernovae, they can blow up a planet and turn it INTO another supernova. If someone else's stuff happens to be there.....

[@patrickvalo8822]

Hi i have a table the size of 155cm by 115cm is that enough for 6 player games. I could play war of the ring, feast for odin and eldritch horror and had enough space.

[@Shelfside]

Our Duchess Gaming Table is 3 feet by 5 feet and just squeezed in Ti4, and fits Eldritch Horror very comfortably! When I ran the conversions for your table, you should have plenty of space!

[@patrickvalo8822]

@@Shelfside thank you very much! Also your channel is awesome

[@Chaplainsquishy]

I have 5,000 hours logged on Civilization 5 (casual I know). This sounds like a board game after my heart, I'm sold.

[@Shelfside]

if you like long games this for you! Also, you may want to look into other 4x games like Kevin Wilson's Civilization or Clash of Cultures to bring that digital experience to person! -Ashton

[@mariogomez8146]

Two 10/10!! I think I have to try this.

[@KammaKhazi]

would love to play this awesome looking game but my gaming group are all 40+ and they moan if games are over 3 hours sadly due to family commitments.

[@tylerbyers9895]

Join the discord and play online through table top simulator

[@JolNarBinks]

Do you listen to space cats peace turtles by and chance?

[@Shelfside]

we actually haven't, the TI4 excitement died down for us a little with covid and all that. But I'm sure I'll give it a listen soon, as things start opening up -Ashton

[@northlakeghost]

Awesome review!! Can't wait for your review of the new Eclipse!

[@stephenohanlon1671]

No interest in this game but goddamn, that intro was top tier. Amazing stuff.

[@mariocrest]

Awesome review. I don't have the number of players to play with. I was wondering if you have played ECLIPSE (2nd edition preferred). And if you recomend it? Thanks guys

[@Shelfside]

Cheers! Game is still pretty good at below 6 IMO, but yeah the full experience is 6 players. We have played Eclipse 2nd edition twice, without asymmetry. It plays entirely differently than TI4, a lot more euro-y, less political, and with a HUGE emphasis on ship building. It's also a lot shorter. I personally don't care for it too much, but Daniel really likes it! -Ashton

[@mariocrest]

@@Shelfside I understand Ashton. Thanks for your reply.

[@Frissdas1207]

That intro was amazing.

[@Shelfside]

cheers! Glad ya liked it :) -Ashton

[@theglode]

Hey guys , thanks for the great video ! Would you consider making a review of eclipse ?

[@Shelfside]

cheers! We've played it twice so far, review sometime! Sometime! Feel like would have to play it at least 2 more times to be comfortable with a review. -Ashton

[@Shelfside]

For what it's worth I like Eclipse more than base game TI4, but TI4 with PoK is absolutely incredible -Daniel

[@theglode]

@@Shelfside great to know ! I’ve bough eclipse and love it. On TI4 : do you think it’s worth playing with 3 players? I have a core group of 3 and can add people from time to time but will most likely play with 3.

[@Shelfside]

@@theglode TI4 is a deeply diplomatic game, so the more the merrier. I've personally never played anything other than 6+ and I don't think I'd want to cause with less people to negotiate with it would just turn into slamming tons of ships and dice into each other without the intrigue, in which case I think there's games with deeper combat that'll do better like eclipse. -Daniel

[@mistuhbear]

man i need to get this back to my table :U it's been TOO long

[@randyrixten6468]

Awesome review what is the size of your gaming table?

[@Shelfside]

Cheers! This one is a 3 feet by 5 feet, called the Duchess gaming table. We got a review for it on the channel, as well as for the newer version called the Jasper. -Ashton

[@xtro9296]

Definitely the best intro.

[@Shelfside]

ahaha cheers! WAs super fun making -Ashton

[@cobtyrannon2479]

Your Pros and Cons are pretty much the same, buuuuut i am missing a bit of variety in the game. You only have two map tiles more than what is needed. You pretty much always draw through the stack of action cards. Therefore you know what is theoretically available. Luckily .... the new expansion fixes some of the negatives! I'm waiting for that review. Hopefully soon after release xD

[@martinbesaliel423]

This might the number one board game that I want to try but I don't think I will try it anytime soon ugh just wish TI have decent 2 player implementation that still retain the feel of the game

[@tigerpjm]

Yeah... it's freaking great!

[@pubbles3229]

I would love to hear what you have to say about "Eclipse Second Dawn for the Galaxy"

[@Shelfside]

ohohoh its on the list man. It's coming. -Ashton

[@StellarJustinJelly]

The Yin are human even if they say they're not.

[@eriksjogren800]

Thank you for the video

[@ImperialGit]

My favorite multiplayer game of all time; shame the dice keep shafting me :')

[@Shelfside]

ahaha try spamming a ton of fighters! Can help -Ashton

[@MyFunnyVids888]

​@@Shelfside thats always my solution tbh any dice war game i solve by anticipating high losses and throwing the kitchen sink at whatever i want dead

[@yolegokclashes1351]

Epic intro

[@scootletawny3886]

Cracking good fun!

[@sebastienvivas9319]

Fuck yes. That's all I gotta say

[@wayner396]

I really like this game but the play time is the only factor I don't like. If they could get it down to a consistent tight 3 hours I'd be all in all the time.

[@SP_A_C_E_D]

You can play on TTS which has scripted boards for easy setup and mechanic resolution that can really chunk that playtime down. Also you can easily save board states to break it up into multiple sessions. If you have first timers it will take 6-8 hrs but if everyone is cooking it will be closer to 4 hrs.

[@EakEmk]

A comment for Daniel, you said no area control game comes close to the fun experience that TI4 always gives, and to that I'd argue Dune is equal. Every game of Dune is an absolute blast, 10/10. I recommend you guys give Dune a shot, especially with advanced rules besides paying spice for unit strength.

[@FiLtheThriL]

They have a Dune review actually. Check it out.

[@moeben7354]

Prophecy of Kings review when?

[@Shelfside]

its gonna have to be after covid settles down, we can't get a in person game going until then. Super hyped for PoK though, its probably the first game we'll play after the pandemic -Ashton

[@moeben7354]

@@Shelfside Hahaha...yeah same with my group (or probably everybody's group for that matter)! But really looking forward to your review! Great Channel thanks!!

[@SilentNSly]

@@Shelfside really looking forward to your PoK review

[@moltenbullet]

Okay, so my friend took a leap and bought this game. And you know what, it's really bitter sweet. It feels like this epic PC 4X game, and I keep thinking about it. There are some strong, emotionally intense moments and high stakes. But for me, the biggest issue is that, for a game that takes 8 - 12 hours, and demands that time investment from all players, there can only be ONE winner. That really sucks, because at some point (especially in a game with mixed levels of players), you know who the winner is likely to be (okay, if not just 1 player, then among 2 persons) and then the rest of the party is just... like a PC's game's AI, helping move the game along for those players? So the triumph factor for the winner is super high, but its such a huge disappointment and drain for everyone else. If you aren't playing this like as a competition, I just can't see the sense in sinking those hours in. Single-winner games I think should demand no more than 3-hours at a go, so that everyone can refresh the game, take away lessons, and give it a shot again a few times in a game-day. Also, oh my god, there's just SO much to remember. I get that much of it could become muscle memory after some time, but think about the time investment to get that muscle memory.

[@Shelfside]

whoa! Awesome that you guys go to give it a go! I think the time length will go down for sure, we've gotten games under 5 hours once everyone is comfortable. Another thing that will come up is everyone getting better at acquiring points, especially by wheeling and dealing to get there. We've found that for veteran TI4 players, people aren't far behind on points for very long, since they find ways to get others to help them out easily. But when starting out, yeah it can be tough just because the game is a behemoth. I DEMAND that we take breaks in between sessions, or else it is just not as fun for me. After a while, the abilities become second nature, the techs just streamline in your head, and the faction abilities all become: duh. BUT yes, this is after many playthroughs, which again we have to say, if you have a group willing to play this multiple times seriously, you are among the lucky ones! Hope this helped man, and more to the awesome highs of TI4! -Ashton

[@moltenbullet]

@@Shelfside i feel like one way to improve TI is to have maybe multiple victory conditions/alternative victories? Like someone could still be galactic emperor at 10vp, but at that point other players could also simultaneously hold crowns for being "the most technologically advanced civilization" or the "the greatest military power", or "the wealthiest"... Something that gives VP laggers or those that had some bad luck some hope to come out with a "positive" story. Yeah, we're doing TI once per month now. We started thinking we could do it once per week, but after 3 straight weeks, i think some discussions got a liiiiitle too heated around the table - it was becoming less fun and more "imma reach across and smack you". And we also had pretty casual players (who had enjoyed stuff like sidereal confluence) in the mix, who found the game a little "hardcore" when the rest of us became too serious. One of them was a couple and they actually got into a pretty intense argument that lingered uncomfortably past the game 😅

[@SigurdBraathen]

2:20 : You're over capacity! also, if you have fighter tokens you need to have at least one fighter unit (plastic) there. Same with infantry tokens and infantry units. 3:50: Agkh! Red Ghosts? You're breaking TI law #8, buddy! The Ghosts of Creuss are BLUE (or black, if blue is taken). 6:23: Read this www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/cotv9b/has_anyone_noticed_the_flavour_text_on_the_direct/ 9:32: RED Arborec??? =-O You guys are crazy! 16:30 No, you cannot use Trade Goods for boosting your Agenda voting power. T.G. can works as Resource or Influence at any time, but not in the Agenda phase. I see you stated that this is your home brew rule, though! :) All in all, awesome video! Thank you :)

[@SigurdBraathen]

Link to the reddit post that brought me here: www.reddit.com/r/twilightimperium/comments/iw46sf/twilight_imperium_4th_edition_shelfside_review/

[@justsumCrumbs]

Man, we'd be such great friends.

[@sebastienvivas9319]

Love it

[@abesapien9930]

I've not enjoyed this game the 3 times I've played it. Turns are murderously long, you barely move your ships across the map, jockeying for the strategy cards is a weird mechanic, you can never do what you really want, and battles are just ok. It's so much work, and so much waiting, for so little payout. I bet half the people coming to this game drooling over the cover art are disappointed by how laborious this game is. I'd much rather play Star Wars: Rebellion. And please don't recommend Cosmic Encounter. That's a good example of a sci-fi game that's too light!

[@bastianvillebro6420]

ive watched this videos atleast 40 times now i don´t need help you do

[@Shelfside]

I remember just sitting there and going through the TI4 components dozens of times when I first got it... so addicting :) gaaah I can't wait to see what our conclusions will be on PoK! -Ashton

[@A6by]

I just don't understand how anything can be fun when it's that long. Even a good movie will become boring and bad if it hits the 3 hour mark. Time ruins all things.

[@CrazyBunnyGuy]

Aaarhg, too expensive for me, considering it will be sitting on the shelf for months at a time, probably (I can get it for $210, at least in this craphole where I live, I see that Amazon has it for $112, oh, well, HAHAHAHAHAA I almost ordered it and realised there's extra $211 in shipping costs!), but it is so high on my list, I'm actually trying to save up to get it anywas (not from Amazon :P). I have never played it but I've seen plenty of reviews and playthroughs and there is no single aspect of this game that I do not like. COVID has put a stop to my attempts to find someone from whom I could borrow this game (if anyone would be willing to do it - I know I probably wouldn't, considering the million pieces inside the box...)

[@KamahlFoK]

I wish my one play of this game went well. I get what it does, and it does it very well, but there's so much randomness and swinginess married to the constant kingmaker/slayer issue these games suffer from. If the game were about 1-2 hours long, I'd go nuts over it, but our experience took roughly 7-9 hours (breaking for food skews the time), and honestly? I didn't find it worth it. I was pleased with my performance in a 4 player game, but near the end, suddenly 2 players are putting boots to my neck to stop me from having any chance at going from 9 points to 10, while expectedly the player who wasn't wasting time with me and left unmolested just got to rocket to 10 points and took the crown. Cool, that's nice, thanks. The rules mostly make sense but it seems even veterans still get several wrong. Telling me I can't reinforce if my planet is occupied (you can still build ground troops, and when one player was attacking the homeworld of Sol, that's kind of critical given it's nearly impossible to kill their ground troops permanently), neglecting to point out my PDS can fire on landing troops (of which I had two), or failing to point out that my rather poor starting setup could have been mitigated by building two spaceports in a binary system... again, I get it, not all of this is the game's fault, but it's not something I can see myself visiting repeatedly and finding it worthwhile given the immense duration (and that "Nuke Mecatol Rex" card coming up, with me being the only person on it, yes that went exactly as you'd think). I also get that theme and immersion are huge in TI4, but generally not prominent factors to me personally. The main damning point for me is that I could play 5-6 games of something meaty like Mythic Battles: Pantheon in the time it takes for 1 play of this clown fiesta. I won't pretend that there's competition on the mish-mash of various game mechanics and things to consider, it does that (mostly) well, even if again - it's highly random. But that's the thing - I'm a person who wants 1-2 things done /very/ well, and TI4 doesn't do anything well beyond having all these things available to sample. It's almost like a buffet in a sense - yeah, you'll get everything you're hungry for, but it won't be as good as a place specialized in if you'd given up even one element.

[@trimeus]

While you have more issues with the game than just its length, if you ever wanted to have another go at it, try doing less VPs or playing it over a few days (saving notes and such to remind players of their strategies). Yet, less VPs means less of the full experience. And as you said, it may just not hit on things as solidly as you would like, but here are my thoughts, nonetheless.

[@majkus]

Actually, 'alien races' isn't right. 'Alien' just means 'foreign'. The alien races are, if anything, all the _other_ players.