Two Form Theory - Disc Golf Backhand Pro Form and Beginner Form

I used my scientific and athletic background to study disc golf backhand form to understand the difference between forms that can produce 300 ft throws and those that go over 400 ft. After more than a year of study, I present a new theory of disc golf backhand form: Two Form Theory. Unlike the common default theory people work from, which suggests a person can change individual features of their form to eventually arrive at better, professional-like form, the Two Form Theory claims that there are two distinct forms, "beginner" form and "pro" form, each with their own primary feature and set of secondary features (e.g., bracing, lag, power pocket in the pro form), and importantly, you cannot change the secondary features of the beginner form to get to the secondary features of the pro form without changing the primary feature, as the secondary features are reliant on the primary feature. See the video for explanation and exemplification of the primary features and how to get started. If this is accurate, which I posit it is, then it demands a change in how form is taught. Strong theories are vital to moving a field of knowledge forward. This one may not be perfect - no theory is - but I believe it will move us closer to an accurate understanding of form. A theory must be simple, and this one is. And it must have high explanatory power. I use Two Form Theory to easily explain topics such as bracing, the power pocket, lag, and the use of the off arm - topics that have previously been very difficult to understand and apply. Please feel free to ask for further explanations of any features of the throw in light of this new theory.

[@chrysr7773]

This is the best explanation of the backhand throw I have ever seen/heard presented in a relatively simple way. It is a way of thinking about the throw, the result is the same as what the pros look like but this keeps the focus simple without ten or more different pieces that coaches often have you think about one piece at a times for months. This helps focus on the key point that needs to happen to get the whip that brings real distance, Thanks very much for saying it in a way that makes tons of sense.

[@jon51901]

Thank you for the feedback!

[@craig5447]

Excellent video Jonathan! From my perspective you nailed it on each piece you talked out. I hope every YT coach who starts repeating this ensures to credit you :)

[@jon51901]

@@craig5447 Thanks. That's why I gave the theory a straightforward name. We'll see...

[@caseybrooks]

I throw around 340 consistently with the "beginner form" but have gotten into the 400s a couple times. It is absolutely clear why pros take stretching so seriously, I could feel how intentionally using my back muscles to build the resistance could result in pulling something. I did not have immediate distance results, though with a 20mph tailwind on flat ground I was getting around 350 consistently and putters going 290-305. Very interested to keep testing this form, especially on a calmer day when I can learn more from less variables. I have never had a disc golf form video make so much sense, and I feel like back when I was grinding my form, I had seen every video that released before 2021. The scientific approach and language made it much easier for me to comprehend. I believe this is likely the key to me being able to throw 400+ consistently. Hope to be able to provide an update. Thank you!

[@jon51901]

Thanks. Please do share an update!

[@oakwine1329]

I love this, thank you. The main thing that I've heard from other videos is throwing "from the hips", which to me sounded like the ilium-to-femur joint. So I've been lost for a couple of years. I really like the ideas of pulling from the lat (of course, you can't isolate a single muscle, lots of other muscles will always assist) and that several things that other teachers focus on "happen for free" if you do the right thing with the lat. Terminology suggestion: the "x-step" usually refers to all of the steps of the backhand throw. And "step" implies putting weight on that foot. Perhaps the move following the "launch step" could be called the "cross touch" or "back touch"? In dance choreography, a touch is when a foot makes contact with the ground without putting your full weight on that foot.

[@merk345]

Wow! I've been playing for a few years now. I'm very coordinated for a 53 year old. Practicing here in my living room I'm automatically finishing on my heal. I'll be doing field work all day today!

[@forrestthroughdatrees]

I’ve been playing for 8 years and my form is totally maxed out (in a bad way). I need to reconstruct without thinking about the 1,000+ slight adjustments making me robotic. I find it nearly impossible to spin onto my heel without thinking about it… anyways, what part helped you do that?

[@jon51901]

Check out the other video on getting started with the theory. It will show you how to do it. Ultimately, you will need to build the muscle memory like a karate/tai chi exercise.

[@hannulehtonen7450]

23:41: "Body in line with the target, which is what we want to achieve when the disc is right here. That's what the off arm is doing. So, if you think it's helping you to rotate through, you are actually doing the opposite of what it should be doing." This is very interesting. I have experienced that aiming is easier when I use the off arm. This explains why.

[@jon51901]

@@hannulehtonen7450 Yes. Aiming and accuracy are easiest when the disc goes straight past the body without the course being altered by the body.

[@hannulehtonen7450]

One popular teaching is "leading with the elbow". What is your thought: is this something which will follow sort of automatically, if we pull with our lats?

[@jon51901]

@@hannulehtonen7450 I mention this in the video, the smashing the door with the elbow idea. It could work but it might not. Knowing why is vital. A person might take that and lean forward do it. That won't help. Or a person might start with the back. So it could lead them there. But if they don't know why, changes in the throw could eventually lead them away from it. If you follow what I say here, you should end up with the elbow leading. And I do think that practicing, especially playing catch, just focused on the elbow leading is valuable. I've done that a ton. It is valuable because your body naturally wants to do the opposite, rotate through together with the disc.

[@hannulehtonen7450]

@@jon51901 Thank You very much! Something to think about and practice.

[@mattgomez115]

This was super interesting. Loading the lats is not anything I've heard yet, and I'm excited to try it out! I'll give your tips and cues a shot during my round Sunday and report back! Thanks for making this!

[@jon51901]

Thanks. I do recommend starting this from a stand still or one step. I think most will fail if they start by running forward and trying to do it. Too much muscle memory for the beginner form.

[@andyf4152]

Interesting. Thats a lot of information though. Just in my two years of playing and starting at 41, for the average Joe, if you really want to get better with distance and accuracy, consistently, with a lot of things you pointed out, you have to skip a few lunches, pull a few all nighters, and abandon all relationships temporarily. The last statement is probably stretched a little, but you have to have a little of that mindset!

[@jon51901]

I think you are correct. I did fieldwork probably six times a week and played five times a week for at least a year to figure out what I share, not to mention watching every dg tutorial and dg tournament - every division there is. You know, I think you might call it obsessed. I think my wife would - has. lol

[@andyf4152]

@ ha! I’m not married, yet! No kids. In my first 6 months, and 3-4 nights even now, I go throw 11pm, 1am, 3am. Very early on, it didn’t matter, rain, storm, any weather above 40 ish, I was throwing. I live across creek from a course. Less than a mile from 4-5 fields. I would watch videos at 130 am and be at the park at 135.

[@tomascronqvist1450]

Very very interesting. Thanks. I will think of this and try it out.

[@jon51901]

Thanks. Let us know how it goes.

[@OutThereImages]

Very informative! I’ve watched most disc golf tutorial videos over the last 12 years and this video does an excellent job of presenting science based techniques. I briefly experimented with the idea of pulling with the back and it feels very much like when I hit my best distances. While focusing on the back it does feel a bit like my arm is stiff and may lead to a bit of rounding. What are your thoughts on the action and reaction of the throwing arm?

[@jon51901]

I think I would need to understand what stiff arm is referring to before answering. It definitely feels different when engaging the back muscles.

[@OutThereImages]

@ In your video you mention how the arm may feel stiff. My limited throws with engaging the back seem like the elbow isn’t wanting to break into the 90 degree bend and stays a bit straighter. Maybe asked better is simply what are your thoughts on the action of the throwing arm?

[@jon51901]

@@OutThereImages The off arm's job on the reach back is to resist the pull of the back and off arm coming down until it can no longer do so. Then, as the disc comes in, if tension is maintained across the back, it will not collapse across the body, but will be at 90 degrees. This happens as the arm is fairly loose and held in place more by the back. That is what the theory says. However, as soon as an idea is out of my mouth, I start to question it. That's science. The question makes me think of something I want to experiment with... we'll see how that goes.

[@OutThereImages]

@@jon51901 I see what I did. In thinking about pulling with the back I stiffened the arm a bit. Pulling with the back really should only, somewhat, stiffen or maybe firm up better said, the upper arm/bicep/tricep area. The elbow and below should remain loose.

[@jon51901]

​@@OutThereImagescorrect

[@WelehoWizardi-tp9jt]

from your 650ft throw, you go with your butt frist, try to be more your side againgst the target untill your last step, then you load, now you walk with your back againgst the target, sorry my english, hope you understand :) and make sure you have your weight fully on your front foot before throw, and take your steps againgst were you throw, now you round alot and you use your upperbody to throw the disc. your runup looks like you should throw to the left were your hip points to. no offence, love to learn

[@WelehoWizardi-tp9jt]

And your head is moving with your upperbody, try to look back wile you throw and dont let your head turn with the body, this stops you from rotating your upper body to early. Simply take the xstep to were you gonna throw, dont do it with your back facing the target, but your hip, last step you load, plant, full weight on your front foot, throw and dont let your head turn with the body, focus on keeping the head back.

[@jon51901]

Since you watched the video up until that point, you know that I don't put much stock into the conventional wisdom. What I enjoy about disc golf is figuring out form, and so I actually have about five different forms that I can pull out at any given time. I used this one there for its raw power. I just wanted to throw it as far as I could. This particular form is very much like Evelina's form. There are definitely certain features of the form that I don't really like and I can certainly critique it. For one thing, the off arm is not utilized very efficiently in this form. I could go on with critiques, but that is just one form that I play around with. I can just switch to another if I want. But your critiques are just things that have been passed down as common knowledge and some of them are not very helpful and devoid of a foundational theory, a person is not really able to incorporate any of them well. That is my biggest critique of the common critiques given. I believe you have throw them all out there. lol. The worst one is rounding. It's not helpful at all. It is imprecise to the point of having no meaning. Everyone has a different understanding of what that means. It reminds me of my dad coaching me in ball golf when I was a kid - you are dropping your shoulder. LOL. He had no clue what the mechanics of the form were. He was just tossing out a common critique that people pass on. Pointless and only made me more frustrated. We really need to kill the 'rounding' critique. If you can't explain in detail what you mean and how it is connected to an overarching theory of form, don't use it. The only other critique I care to address is the butt first one and all I will say is watch Calvin Heimburg. There is a lot more that I could say, but overall, question the hell out of commonly passed down advice.

[@ksu7595]

Very interesting! I have been thinking about the throw in much the same way, unfortunately without beeing able to incorporate it in my own throw, mostly I guess due not really doing much form practice. But anyway, the way I think about it is that what is usually referred to as the coil (done correctly) is putting tension on the posterior oblique sling (POS). So all across the back from the left glutes to the right shoulder (for RHBH). In addition, shoulder protraction puts tension on the upper back muscles. From the coiled position, internal rotation of the left/back leg as seen in the form of many pros, will put even more tension on the POS. And the use of the off arm in the way you describe increases the tension in the upper back. This increased tension all over the posterior side basically forces the body into the power pocket, as there is too much tension to stay "coiled", again much like you decribed it. Now the body is in the power pocket position, but still with high tension all across the backside. Now from this position is where all of the backside muscles contract. This includes all of the POS, including the left glute (RHBH) which causes the left hip to extend and push forward, which together with the front hip being forced back like you said, creates some pelvic rotation. Contraction of the upper back muscles creates the "swim move", as the left shoulder will retract and left arm swing back a bit as a result of this contraction. I think that some players gets proportionally more of their power from upper back and therefore more horizontal shoulder abduction, causing a greater angle between chest and arm on release. Like GG. And some players gets more of the power from the POS, causing more shoulder turn and lower angle between chest and arm on release, like McBeth. Anyways, I find discussion of boimechanics interesting and perhaps specifically outside of a coaching perspective. From a coaching perspective I think that different cues can cause different people to find the correct mechanics. And I think biomechanically "correct" cues are likely to be ineffective in many cases, which also make biomechanic details less relevant to coaching.

[@jon51901]

I appreciate your description of biomechanics! It fills in details in what I have shared. It is good to keep in mind the different levels of analysis in an effort to understand what is happening and to provide an explanation to the everyday player that will help them move towards achieving their goals. I'm constantly thinking about what needs to be said to a person to help them take steps in the right direction. It's kind of a game or puzzle that I enjoy figuring out.

[@chrysr7773]

I want a pair of the shoes you are wearing, what are they? Not joking, they look ultra comfortable.

[@jon51901]

LOL. Thanks. I'll have to check and see what kind they are when I'm back at the office next week. I can't remember right now.

[@jannolaveggen8624]

So if im currently throwing 450, do i have to use my back muscles? I dont consciously do this

[@jon51901]

People who naturally do something well typically don't know why or how they do it. I'd recommend trying to start paying attention to which muscles are being used at which point in your throw. Your throw will evolve over time. You may find at some point that you can no longer hit that distance due to changes you aren't aware of. By becoming more aware, you will be able to maintain the level that you have reached.

[@kevinloganwarren]

Lats or Delts? I'm having trouble really grasping the feeling of pulling with my back as you describe [in that move]. Any tips/drills to specifically focus on getting this feeling first? It feels more like I'm driving the move with my legs/hips/core. I keep trying to mentally think about doing a 'lat pulldown' at the gyn and what pulling with those muscles feels like.

[@jon51901]

The difference in types of rows that I show with the dumbbell is the simplest way to get the feel of it. It might take awhile. If I try with my left side, it is much harder to get the feel. It feels super weird. If you try to just add it to your normal throw or try to runup and do it, you will likely fail. So, if you have access to weights, start there. Copy what I do in the video. Then stand up and see if you can replicate the pull standing up.