Two Piece Trad Belays, Ever Enough? Never Enough?

[@MattyDredge]

"The words 'always' and 'never' are for fanatics and beginners" 🙂

[@ggs4989]

Ah, but are they always for fanatics and beginners? Or only mostly? I think it's safe to say that you should never let go of the brake strand.

[@MattyDredge]

@ggs4989 unless you have tied it off and the climber is aware or unconscious

[@ggs4989]

@@MattyDredge * never let go of the brake strand while belaying. Always shout rock when a rock is falling. Never climb without a helmet. Never use a single piece anchor. Always tie knots in the end of the rope. ... I could go on come on man, don't be a fanatic

[@MattyDredge]

@ggs4989 ooh good game, I like it. Never let go of the brake strand whilst belaying: when climbing TRS or LRS with a grigri, you would be self-belaying without holding the brake strand. In the context of belaying someone else, there is definitely an argument that it's safe to let go of the brake strand if belaying with a Petzl Rig (an outdoor activity centre I worked for mandated a rig for belaying). Always call rock when a rock is falling: I would not be calling rock when I'm cleaning a route so multiple Rocks are falling and I'm in sight of the ground. Always wear a helmet when climbing: I'd be interested to witness that conversation between you and Adam Ondra or Alex Honnold. There are also plenty of old timers who "never have and never will" and I don't always when I'm climbing without ropes and don't normally climbing indoors. Always tie knots in the end of the rope: abseiling a distance that I know to be 12m to the ground, with a 60m rope, when I can see the pile of rope on the ground. I enjoyed that, any more 🙂

[@ggs4989]

@MattyDredge If you take a break and come back tomorrow and read over this thread, you might realize that you're brushing against a contradiction. Literally "only a sith deals in absolutes." I need only one counter example of where a non-fanatical non-beginner would use "always" or "never", but even if you could exhaustivly disprove every one, you'd be proving that you are a beginner or fanatic. In your response, however, you've only shown that they do in fact apply in specific circumstances. You just have to be pedantic or obtuse enough to ignore implications and inferences and/or argue straw men. The implication of "never let go of the brake strand" is that you are belaying and that no matter how safe it is to let go, you shouldn't. Saying to never do so is not fanatical, or for beginners only. You'll find the same level of risk intolerance towards firearms. And regardless of how you personally feel, you will find it at all levels of experience and temperance. Not just beginners and fanatics. You straw man again by switching context with calling "rock." Having to specify, rather than assume, obvious context with every statement greatly diminishes the utility of conversion. It should be clear that the context was of climbing and not cleaning. Making the exceptional distinction, and forcing the claimant to be more specific is a loop that can tiringly repeat it self until you eventually will hit rock bottom, where with all sorts of superfluous qualifying statements, you will *still* be able to reach an "always" or "never" statement. The last two are more of the same: arguing that something can be done without death, ignoring that the advice's purpose is to eliminate risk, however small, and however accepted among other groups. Groups that have, and will suffer loss which would have been preventable by following simple 0-cost prevention steps.

[@grahammeigh]

Time. On alpine routes the judgement is often: is that good enough, maybe - but how long will it take to add a good third piece? Is it safer to make each belay 5/5 or safer to use ‘good’ belays and finish the route in good time.

[@OldMountaineer]

Thanks for the quality instruction.

[@paulhyland7637]

On grit with over 5000 routes experience, two good nuts is the norm if there isn't a boulder just in the right place to sling.

[@RMNPBETA]

I truly don’t think there is enough emphasis placed on practicing on real rock before headed up/out. I just spent 5 hours just building belays and hauling setups. Horizontals, cracks, micro gear, large gear, good stances, bad stances, etc. placing yourself in those situations, I think, is essential for effective leading climbing proficiency. I would encourage every leader to practice for several hours knowing that it’s going to make your party much better once it’s game time. Great video btw :)

[@ercle88]

Good enough is exactly that, once an anchor is good enough, adding more won't make it better. I would personally put extra emphasis on building directional anchors when they have fewer pieces.

[@johnliungman1333]

Thanks for a thoughtful video. As in full of thought. It’s worth really thinking about WHY we use multiple anchor points sometimes. We can distribute load. We can reduce the probability of all pieces failing. And we can get a more stable, motionless anchor. The first is valid, and the more points the lesser load on each. But it is only relevant if there is a strength issue, ie weak rock, weak piece, or weak webbing. The second is relevant when going from one to two points, but after that there is diminishing return. This is because the probability of failure of one piece is low. If it’s 1%, then the probability of two pieces failing is 0.01%. Adding a third makes little sense because it only takes you from minimal to microscopic risk. The third point is about stability of the anchor. One anchor point can swing freely. Two cannot. Adding a third has minimal value. In other words: one piece is fine, if it is strong, zero risk of popping, and multidirectional (eg a tree). Two ticks the boxes IF the rock and the equipment are full strength. On weak rock, snow or ice, add more points. And if you are unsure, make it three. Feeling good and safe is also important.

[@bonefishboards]

Two-anchor belays are fine with experience.

[@pavlodeshko]

hm, experience of what? placing? 99% of placements, especially in alpine scenarios, are never "tested" with lead fall. so how a person to know if he wasn't placing crappy bits for years?

[@BurgessCross.design]

​@@pavlodeshkothat isn't experience then is it? I think experience is the knowledge of how things act in different scenarios and being able to react to change in a knowledgeable manner.

[@daanschone1548]

​​​@@pavlodeshkoif you trad climb (not alpine) you often fall on gear. So you learn what is good and what not and you can use that knowledge for building anchors. If you have been tradclimbing for years and never have fallen than you are just not pushing yourself enough. Trad climbing is often very similar to sport climbing. Although this of course is area dependent. (I avoid the more free solo type of trad)

[@marcchrys]

Beginning climbing in 1980, I reckon 80% of my trad belays were only 1 point (usually a bomber sling belay)...and I held several falls.

[@christianchesswas7150]

I love the content. Great conversation starter. How would you reflect this experience based judgement in your Risk assessment processes and safety management systems?

[@michaldz19961]

Good video, thanks! In a scenario where the only bit of gear is a big tree or a big spike/boulder, in your opinion, are two slings around the same big tree or boulder better than one? Can it be classed as redundant?

[@daanschone1548]

Two is better than one, but in most situations too much. One will do. If you are worried about sharp edges or cutting slings I'd reconsider the place where you are setting up your belay. Also may I recommend aramid slings? They are super cut resistant.

[@BH-fq4qn]

do you use different rules with gear for scrambling/alpine routes?

[@daanschone1548]

I'd say no. In trad as in alpine you have to know how good a placement is. The difference is that in trad you often push yourself enough to fall and in alpine you have to deal with time constraints or just basically easy free soloing. Also with weather and snow and ice and other crap. Although some trad (even sport) crags have more of an alpine culture and are a bit more in between trad and alpine. Long story short, you have to be able to know the risks.

[@daanschone1548]

Another big aspect in alpine ia rope drag. The more gear you place, the more drag. So gear might be more spaced out than on a short trad climb.

[@paulmorrey4298]

Thanks

[@stephenc-h6g]

Once again a well delivered discusion /topic, having climbed for some 30 years I would always advocate using as much pro as possible,would you really not want to protect your mate as best as you can ? what would you feel if you arrived at the belay and thought" I would have liked to have seen more pro".It is understanadable that people become complacent and perhaps cut corners, but do you really need to.If there is only 2 pieces available then either use them or climb up a bit further to see what is available.When it comes to life or your mates do the best that you can. Perhaps thats one of the reasons that I can still go climbing.

[@JWK35]

I'd argue that as well as environment/situational factors like declining weather, daylight or energy, the same risk assessment is the same with any walk of life, right? Do you play it safe climbing the stairs on all fours lest you slip and tumble over? Climbing is riskier than most activities but the concept is exactly the same. You spend an appropriate amount of time and effort relative to the risk involved, and after a certain point you get diminishing returns. I've spent 10+ minutes trying to build an anchor for a short mountain/scrambling pitch in crap rock before, when on reflection, friction around a corner and a body belay would have sufficed. The same could be said for a strong 2 piece anchor vs spending double the time on an array of pieces.

[@cynthiastandley5742]

Are you saying "kit"?

[@dimitargeorgiev188]

Climbing is like computer science, the answer to most questions is "it depends". It does take patience and a lot of commitment to study first principles, but hopefully when our lives depend on it at least we're motivated.

[@largeformatlandscape]

Why trust a single sling around a boulder/spike but not a perfect large nut in a perfect granite wedge crack? I know it’s “textbook” but why?

[@nofear4by4]

Fixed anchors don't have as many variables as a piece of gear... The perfect nut can jiggle out of place in some crazy situation?

[@largeformatlandscape]

@@nofear4by4 I can imagine just as many fixed anchors that have remote possibilities of failure. Boulders that have perfectly flat bottoms on clay soil so they slide, trees that look healthy but have no root system, etc. I can also imagine a perfect crack between two humungous pieces of contiguous granite that a large nut would never ever come out of in a million years, and because I can see all the 'variables', I would trust it. I suppose I was questioning the "never belay off a single piece of trad gear" as an absolute, given the variables that exist in fixed anchors as well.

[@EricCraig-km4sb]

I think you did an excellent job, particularly with regards to the part of your audience that has the most to gain from watching this. I am a long retired guide.

[@daanschone1548]

I'd trust a nut like that. And I'm also a trad instructor. The thing is, this comes with experience. And when we are first taught trad climbing we don't have that. So we learn basics that are safe in most situations. Not the exceptions. Also if there is a possibility to improve the single nut with a cam, so the anchor can also be loaded upwards, then I'd take that opportunity. A single good nut might be something I'd use when out of gear, or when retreating or something similar.

[@largeformatlandscape]

@@daanschone1548 Yeah - I wasn't so much thinking a full on, multi-pitch climbing belay, although obviously this would be fine if monitored for the upward (after all, most slings don't do upward so well).

[@wenlambotomy6231]

2 for experienced climbers. 22 for gear fear noobs.

[@JoachimMilan1]

You see pros use single cams... I would never! Lack of trust in my own skill rather than the gear.

[@daanschone1548]

Good mindset. And the "pro's" are either showing off, or are out of gear that fits, or in a bad spot for more gear, or have reasons to sacrifice safety for spead if they use one cam only. That being said, a good bomber cam is bomber.

[@largeformatlandscape]

Nothing is ever perfect hence the backup piece. So two “bomber” peices is enough. However, if you doubt one of those peices, back that one up.

[@1337-David]

I think you need to know the "rules" (the fundamentals and what we call textbook) to be able to break them. Understand why you would build a 2 piece anchor, understand why you would build a 4 piece anchor. It all comes down to what is the situation.

[@stevestackpole6817]

Not thought provoking. Subjective