Two Rapture Passages Pretribbers Can't Answer // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS

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The Rapture and the Endurance of the Saints Episode 31: Two Rapture Passages Pretribbers Can't Answer
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[@oddlycreatetiff8920]

I'm so grateful for this channel. The amount of pre-tribbers in the world these days can create an illusion of isolation, so it's comforting to learn that I'm not alone. Please keep up your excellent work; it is appreciated deeply.

[@mikek001]

Precisely.

[@visionpurposehope7158]

If it wasn't for Christian's who studied pre-trib eschatology I wouldn't have learned as much as to what is going on today. They have been on target with world events. Jack Van Impe, Hal Lindsey, Chuck Missler to say a few. I grew up Post trib and learned hardly anything about Revelation.

[@oddlycreatetiff8920]

@@visionpurposehope7158 you should have tried reading the Bible. You can learn a lot about the book of Revelation by reading it.

[@julienolan5022]

Getting people to believe pre trib is Satan's deception because when they don't get air lifted out of tribulation like they're expecting many will fall away.

[@StephenLee-zq9vh]

@@Lament8765 why is it not true?

[@EvangelistUwePGlur]

I`m so grateful every day a new, to be chosen and to set apart to be a precious pre tribber! Until he comes. Amen Hallelu-yah. This is so awesome!! I love it.

[@ladyhawkNone]

I tried to warn some people and try to prepare the church to be warriors for Christ because of ur not ready u could easily be deceived. I was basically attacked, told i was dangerous etc etc. Believers have tough times ahead until we see the Lord.

[@SpotterVideo]

The globalists at the "World Economic Forum" have said by 2030 you will own nothing, and you will be "happy". Meanwhile many in the modern Church claim we do not need to be concerned about global government. The truth is found below. What does an understanding of the New Covenant do to the Pretrib Rapture doctrine? Since the New Covenant is “everlasting” in Hebrews 13:20, how is the New Covenant Church age going to end seven years before the Second Coming of Christ? Why would anyone think God is going back to the Old Covenant system now made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in Hebrews 8:13? We are not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18. We are come instead to the New Covenant church of Mount Zion and the blood in Hebrews 12:22-24. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." (The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.) Tim LaHaye was co-author of the “Left Behind” books and movies which have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ. Recently, Pastor Matt Furse of Mountain View Baptist Church in Custer, S.D. has written a book titled “Which One Is Right?’, which reveals the recent history of the pretrib rapture doctrine, and the fact it does not agree with what is written in the King James Bible. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected. The Greek words for “wrath” and “tribulation” are not the same word, as proven by the verse below. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Watch the KZbin video “Pretribulation Paradox” by former pretrib believer skydiver626.

[@dougenosh6772]

Its a hard thing to deal with when you are a member of a retrib church. I have looked and looked in my area for a church that reads this area of scripture as I understand it. Not an easy place to find.

[@SS-fp6kz]

@@dougenosh6772I just realized the truth after almost 50 years. I immediately shared it with my Mom who is turning 80 and was raised pre-trib from her youth as a pastor’s daughter. After writing all the scriptures down concerning the return of Christ, she now also believes in a post tribulation rapture too. It just took studying ONLY the WORD for the answers and not adding preconceived notions from Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHay, Jack Van Impe, etc… It’s truly amazing how simple and clear it is if you truly read it as if NO ONE told you about a rapture. I’m convinced that NO ONE would ever walk away with that belief on their own. I learned this truth by being determined to prove that the Pre-tribulation rapture was the truth. I studied it so I couple purposefully debate against mid and post Trib rapture Believers. So, I read it from a standpoint like I never heard of a rapture. That’s when I realized that I was completely wrong. I was truly baffled at how I believed in a pre tribulation rapture my entire life. It’s actually difficult for me to even comprehend how to believe in a pre tribulation rapture now.

[@joshua9449]

I assume the anti-works, false grace camp.

[@bradynixon8900]

@@ladyhawkNone foolishly (because it got under my skin a little) I watched an insta clip where some Texan chick was pitching the pre-trib. She was word for word repeating what I assume she had heard from Amir Tsifati and his cohorts about their Gallilean wedding concept. Anyway, the comments were more interesting: (1) clearly nobody studies the Bible (2) so many people think the world is tough right now and “please take us out of here” and clearly also Americans so why they think it’s tough being in the richest nation in the world who knows… (they are not exactly living in Syria as Christians where Isis is threatening their lives). The pitch made was well rehearsed but as always it clashes with other scripture. It is stating to appear futile to me to even bother telling Christians they need to snap out of it and be ready. Insert grinding my teeth. 😂

[@dianne247]

Up until about 5 years ago, I believed what I was taught all of my life which was pretrib. Then I read Matthew 24. It is so obvious now that they were /are wrong. I wonder how many pretribbers have actually read Matthew. I question a lot about what is being taught. That's why I love watching your teaching videos. Shalom!

[@jamescole3152]

They read it. And then get out a hammer to make if fit pre trib by saying it is Israel.

[@michaelpalmer7954]

Nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 does it mention angels gathering anyone. Secondly Paul says in a twinkling of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:52. You might catch a glimpse of something in a "twinkling of an eye," but most assuredly you won't know what was seen in those 400 milliseconds. And lastly in Revelation 1:7 it says; "all the tribes of earth shall mourn over him." That is hardly, "the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" that we are looking for. Titus 2:13: Shalom... Mourn: κόπτω (2875) Find all occurrences (approximately 8) to cut, strike, smite to cut from, cut off to beat one's breast for grief

[@mcgeorgerl]

I too was a Pre-Tribber. All of my teachers from the late 70's onward were advocates of the Scofield/Larkin doctrines. I 'drank the Kool-Aid' in huge gulps. Honestly, I don't recall the moment when I realized the scriptures that I relied upon for this doctrine didn't really work, that I was reading my eschatology into the scriptures. Discovering my error was actually a relief and, I'd say, that it both causes us to be stronger in the faith and better prepared for our futures.

[@warriophecy8499]

@@michaelpalmer7954 Yes, it it these tares who use a hammer, twisting the Word of God; there destruction will come swiftly. I am a watchman on the wall for my Lord Jesus Christ.

[@toddott633]

@@jamescole3152 or they get out a pair of scissors and cut up cut it into pieces, assigning some pieces to Israel and some to the Church.

[@SpectrumView]

I'm so glad you guys are there teaching with such depth and accuracy. I'm Finally back on the right side of this thing.. ya it's sobering for sure but I want the truth more than candy! Blessings on you kids.. awesome stuff 🙏

[@shellydavis6784]

Hi. I took have been searching. If you don't mind, I could suggest listening to RC Sproul, Jeff Durbin, the recorded works of Josephus....all good places to find more information on Eschatology.

[@robertogil792]

The evil won with you. The Sacrifice and Offering in the NT is the Church and will be raptured in the Middle 9f the Week. Wake up!!! Or your soul will belongs the Evil.

[@danielpulford4928]

Gathered together in the olivet discourse is different meaning than caught up in 1 Thess 4:17. There is no rapture from the earth in the olivet discourse, because "gathered together " from the 4 winds of heaven is not a "rapture from the earth. On the other hand "caught up" defines a "rapture" from the earth in 1Thess 4:17.

[@AllanBell-xq3sd]

Be of good courage, and He shall strengthen your heart, all you who hope in the Lord. Psalms 31:24

[@johnnyconley9419]

The Truth About the Rapture and Afterlife: What the Bible Really Says In this letter, I dive into scripture to share some essential truths that you may not have been taught about the rapture and what happens after we die. While many are convinced of a popular belief about the rapture, I encourage you to hear what our Savior says in His own words. We explore key verses from Matthew 24, 2 Peter, Titus, and Revelation to reveal what the Bible really says about His return, the end of the age, and the promise of resurrection. It's time to open your eyes to the truth. Hello everyone, and thank you for joining me. I'd like to share a few things I believe are essential for you to know. Many of you may have been taught about a "rapture" and expect to be taken away before tribulation strikes. Yes, our Savior will return, and some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but it will not happen in the way you're being taught. Your teachers may have misled you about the rapture and even what happens after we die. I’m not asking you to take my word for it. Rather, I’m asking you to take our Savior’s word for it. Let's dive into scripture to understand His truth. Matthew 24:4-5: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." My comment: Jesus Himself warned us that many would come in His name and deceive people. This is the starting point of understanding why we must be cautious with teachings that don’t align with the truth of the scriptures. What’s often taught about the rapture doesn’t line up with what Jesus and the apostles said. Matthew 24:36-39: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." My comment: Jesus tells us that no one knows the exact time of His return. Just like in Noah’s time, people will be caught off guard, and there will be no forewarning rapture to escape tribulation. This reinforces that the return of Christ will surprise many, and we must be ready, not relying on a false sense of security. 2 Peter 3:10-13: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat… Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." My comment: The idea that we will escape tribulation is challenged here. Peter describes the day of the Lord as a sudden event-one where the world as we know it will be completely transformed. This points to the finality of His return, where everything changes, not just for believers, but for all creation. Titus 2:13-14: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." My comment: Titus reminds us that our true hope is in the glorious appearing of our Savior, not in being whisked away before tribulation. Our faith should be anchored in His promise of redemption and eternal life, not in escaping hardship. We are called to live faithfully in the present as we await His return. John 6:39-40: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." My comment: Jesus makes it clear that the resurrection will happen "at the last day." There is no mention of an earlier rapture where believers are taken up separately. Our focus should be on His promise that He will raise us up at the final day when He returns, not before. Matthew 24:29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds." My comment: This scripture is direct-Jesus says that He will return after the tribulation. His angels will gather the elect at this time, not before. This is crucial, as it shows that we are not promised a way out of tribulation but rather the strength to endure it until His return. Revelation 20:11-15: "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." My comment: The resurrection and judgment come after Jesus’ return, not before. No one goes to heaven or hell immediately after death, as popular belief might suggest. Instead, all will be judged after His return. If we were to go straight to heaven or hell upon death, there would be no need for the resurrection or judgment as described here. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." My comment: Paul teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living will be caught up with them. This catching up happens at the coming of the Lord, not before. It shows the unity of the event-the dead and the living joining Christ at His return, not in separate stages. Conclusion: I pray that you can see how the scriptures, in their own words, challenge what many of us have been taught about the rapture and the afterlife. The Bible is clear: our hope lies in the resurrection and eternal life with Christ, not in escaping the tribulation. I encourage you to seek this understanding for yourself, and to have faith in the promises of our Savior.

[@tangomar2633]

Pre Tribulation is more believable compare to mid tribulation & post Tribulation.

[@jaredvikse2096]

I just want to say. Very cogent thoughts here! 100% concur.

[@troymoore3087]

The Lord will not let his bride be drugged through the mud of the tribulation and Anti-christ Reign, the scripture teach we are not appointed 15:37 to to wrath 1st Thessalonians 5:9-28 i rest my case we are not going through the great tribulation we will be delivered from it Pre -trib is the truth get ready church Maranantha 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊,

[@MATTHEW-ic3id]

Wrath doesn’t start till later in the tribulation though. I’d rather die for God as a martyr for refusing the mark than just disappear

[@Mike65809]

What wrath is Paul talking about in the context of 1Thess. 5? Context is key.

[@scbt2888]

I’ve heard pretribbers try to say the elect gathered in 24:31 are “tribulation saints” in a second rapture and resurrection. What finally got me out of pretrib was comparing Matt 24:29-31 with the 6th seal being opened in Rev 6 and 2 Thes 2 the rapture and day of the lord won’t happen until after antichrist is revealed and the great falling away happens. Once I was willing to accept what I was seeing over what I was taught, I could no longer be pretrib.

[@stephenszucs8439]

I wonder that they stop at 6 resurrections and two raptures. I mean, if it's open season on the scriptures (as long as you're a Pretribble) why not just add a few more resurrections? A few more raptures? Maybe we could start believing that the OT Saints were already raptured?

[@jamescole3152]

@@stephenszucs8439 OK you made funny comment. Pretribble lol. The whole comment was good.

[@stephenszucs8439]

@@jamescole3152 Thanks, but the "pretribble" came from another commentor on a different video. I stole it with his permission.

[@dougenosh6772]

Bingo. That has been my position for a long while. the word "Gather" and "Gathering" sued by Jesus and Paul are the same Greek word. There is no other way to understand it. And if this gathering does describe a rapture, then, yeah, what you said!

[@paulbrennan4163]

@@dougenosh6772 Trying to connect verses together based on a common word or phrase is the same kind of hermeneutics that the Watchtower uses to decieve people. I call it join-the-dots theology because it allows anyone to start with a story and then arbitrarily pick out which verses to connect in order to support that story. What you really need to do in order to prove your position is to do a deeper study of the subject and then provide _multiple_ lines of inference that shows that two passages of scripture are speaking about the same thing. The more support you have, the stronger the evidence is. Follow this discussion and I will show you how this should be done.

[@marcusdenning1649]

So many will fall. They will say “this can’t be the mark of the beast , because the rapture hasn’t happened “. Many will fall away

[@jamescole3152]

Maybe. Let's hope not.

[@michaelseay9783]

This is my same argument regarding Daniel’s 70th Week. If people are being taught that the 70th Week *has not* occurred, along with the theory that the temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will arise in the Middle East, then many could fall because they will believe 100% what they have been taught.

[@marcusdenning1649]

@@michaelseay9783 I just know there is no pre trib rapture!!! Jesus only comes back one time. When He removes His Church? There will be no way to get saved because the Holy Spirit, which is part of the church will no longer be Available.

[@normmcinnis4102]

The mark of the beast has nothing to do with the rapture.

[@marcusdenning1649]

@@normmcinnis4102 the rapture is a man made teaching by a guy named Darby, pushed by a guy memes scofeild in which the Moody institute pushed in order to make money. How do people not know this. The “rapture” not only has nothing to do with the mark! It also has nothing to do with the Bible. My God how do people believe this stuff.?

[@bawbjusbawb6471]

Thank you Joel! I absolutely LOVE when people use Scripture to prove Scripture... A comparison "of what Paul said compared to what Yeshua said" proves the matter beyond a shadow of doubt... Deuteronomy 19:15 - A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A MATTER MUST BE ESTABLISHED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

[@michaelpalmer7954]

Anyways, nowhere in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it mention angels gathering anyone. Secondly Paul says in a twinkling of an eye, 1 Corinthians 15:52. You might catch a glimpse of something in a "twinkling of an eye," but most assuredly you won't know what was seen in those 400 milliseconds. And lastly in Revelation 1:7 it says; "all the tribes of earth shall mourn over him." That is hardly, Titus 2:13: "the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" that we are looking for. Shalom... Mourn: κόπτω (2875) Find all occurrences (approximately 8) to cut, strike, smite to cut from, cut off to beat one's breast for grief

[@robertogil792]

Thank you for condemn you??? Are you willing to avoid the Mark of the Beast or dead??? The days will be shorts, otherwise Noone will survive.

[@johnnyconley9419]

The Truth About the Rapture and Afterlife: What the Bible Really Says In this letter, I dive into scripture to share some essential truths that you may not have been taught about the rapture and what happens after we die. While many are convinced of a popular belief about the rapture, I encourage you to hear what our Savior says in His own words. We explore key verses from Matthew 24, 2 Peter, Titus, and Revelation to reveal what the Bible really says about His return, the end of the age, and the promise of resurrection. It's time to open your eyes to the truth. Hello everyone, and thank you for joining me. I'd like to share a few things I believe are essential for you to know. Many of you may have been taught about a "rapture" and expect to be taken away before tribulation strikes. Yes, our Savior will return, and some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, but it will not happen in the way you're being taught. Your teachers may have misled you about the rapture and even what happens after we die. I’m not asking you to take my word for it. Rather, I’m asking you to take our Savior’s word for it. Let's dive into scripture to understand His truth. Matthew 24:4-5: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." My comment: Jesus Himself warned us that many would come in His name and deceive people. This is the starting point of understanding why we must be cautious with teachings that don’t align with the truth of the scriptures. What’s often taught about the rapture doesn’t line up with what Jesus and the apostles said. Matthew 24:36-39: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." My comment: Jesus tells us that no one knows the exact time of His return. Just like in Noah’s time, people will be caught off guard, and there will be no forewarning rapture to escape tribulation. This reinforces that the return of Christ will surprise many, and we must be ready, not relying on a false sense of security. 2 Peter 3:10-13: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat… Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." My comment: The idea that we will escape tribulation is challenged here. Peter describes the day of the Lord as a sudden event-one where the world as we know it will be completely transformed. This points to the finality of His return, where everything changes, not just for believers, but for all creation. Titus 2:13-14: "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." My comment: Titus reminds us that our true hope is in the glorious appearing of our Savior, not in being whisked away before tribulation. Our faith should be anchored in His promise of redemption and eternal life, not in escaping hardship. We are called to live faithfully in the present as we await His return. John 6:39-40: "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." My comment: Jesus makes it clear that the resurrection will happen "at the last day." There is no mention of an earlier rapture where believers are taken up separately. Our focus should be on His promise that He will raise us up at the final day when He returns, not before. Matthew 24:29-31: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds." My comment: This scripture is direct-Jesus says that He will return after the tribulation. His angels will gather the elect at this time, not before. This is crucial, as it shows that we are not promised a way out of tribulation but rather the strength to endure it until His return. Revelation 20:11-15: "And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works... and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." My comment: The resurrection and judgment come after Jesus’ return, not before. No one goes to heaven or hell immediately after death, as popular belief might suggest. Instead, all will be judged after His return. If we were to go straight to heaven or hell upon death, there would be no need for the resurrection or judgment as described here. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." My comment: Paul teaches that the dead in Christ will rise first, and then the living will be caught up with them. This catching up happens at the coming of the Lord, not before. It shows the unity of the event-the dead and the living joining Christ at His return, not in separate stages. Conclusion: I pray that you can see how the scriptures, in their own words, challenge what many of us have been taught about the rapture and the afterlife. The Bible is clear: our hope lies in the resurrection and eternal life with Christ, not in escaping the tribulation. I encourage you to seek this understanding for yourself, and to have faith in the promises of our Savior.

[@tonymarlow8306]

@@johnnyconley9419God did promise protection from the hour of temptation which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth because thou has kept the word of my patience Revelation 3-10 and ch.12-7-14 my question for you. Is not this the church that's protected during the tribulation? I used to believe in pre tribulation there's so much to learn. I pray for strength to endure and be ready at all times not all will be protected is my understanding

[@hbrws813]

Excellent information and teaching. Thank you! I love the side-by-side comparisons.

[@robertogil792]

Excellent that he condemn you for the Great Tribulation??? Ok, luck.

[@brendag8418]

The fact that pre-trib thought did not surface until 1830 was proof to me that it doesn't square with scripture. That was my turning point. I've listened to all of FAI's videos on the study of scripture and am a peace with my decision. The rapture comes at the end of the great tribulation so therefore, we must prepare to be ready to endure what's coming ahead if the LORD allows some of us remain alive at His coming. Thanks Joel.

[@paultimson6674]

Rubbish, how long have you been a Christian? a month? Iraneus knew John, he wrote about the Rapture. as well as many others. there are books that have been written about the rapture. Try reading. Not everyone is an american. Life did not start in 1776.

[@seanc2788]

Unfortunately you won't make it. 99% of the population dies during the Tribulation. Read Revelation and do the math.

[@hyeminkwun9523]

Catechism #675 and 677 state that, before the second coming of Christ, the Church MUST follow Her Lord to Calvary, Death, and Resurrection for purification and renewal of the Church and world. The fulfillment of this Dogma is here, as we are now living through the prophesied events in 2 Thes 2:1-12 and the mystery of the iniquity (2 Thes 2:7) -- that's why we have had two popes (one True -- Benedict XVI; and the other false, as seen in the vision of Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich) and great apostasy (2 Thes 2:3) in the Church. With the passing of Benedict XVI, the restrainer, Katechon, has been removed and, therefore, the antichrist will soon appear in public (2 Thes 2:7-8), who will be the head of the 1 world religion, followed by schism after the denial of real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist by a false pope, banning of the daily Sacrifice of the Mass (Daniel 12:11), abomination of desolation (Matt 24:15), and fiercest persecutions of the Church (Rev 12:17, 13:10) for 3.5 years (Daniel 12:11-12, Rev 12:14). But God will protect His Church as promised in Matt 16:18, "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against Her" and His faithful remnant (Ps 91). All prophecies of the end times will be fulfilled as written in our generation.

[@paultimson6674]

@@hyeminkwun9523 catholic or protestant? NEITHER. All religions are satanic at the core. We only need a bible and Christ. Not some CLUB. The pope is an irrelevance. and Mega pastors in protestant clubs, also are just commentators. We all are PRIEST=KINGS. Christ is KING of Kings. So you are bringing into the equation a load of guff. You are saved by CHRIST. not by the POPE. Or Billy Graham. you do not need unnecessary middlemen. all you need is God and his word. The rapture occurs so God can wake up all of humanity. we are saved. we are banked. we are KINGS. ELDERS. and the rest of humanity can avoid hell. If they surrender to Christ. three harvests are determined. BARLEY-WHEAT-GRAPE. If you love CHRIST, today, you are BARLEY. the barley falls off the stalk, by a brief waving. The wheat is crushed. God is not Crushing his beloved. We accept Christ today without chastisement. We are not forced - the tribulation is God's Crushing weight on the planet to force out a crop. The wheat is thrashed. Crushed.

[@humblewatchman1673]

@hyeminkwun9523 that story makes the entirety of Bible prophecy center around the catholic Eucharist….surely you see the massive error in that thought process. You’re applying loads of outside influence to Scripture….either the Word of God is holy, unchangeable, and completely sufficient OR we find ourselves getting swallowed up in fables and deception - there is no middle ground here.

[@stevenklinkhamer9069]

Agreed. It all fits together perfectly, in a coherent manner with a post trib, pre-wrath interpretation.

[@archangel_one]

Except which Tribulation? Right now we are in the time of the Tribulation of the Saints which will get worse and worse, almost no one will be left. After this current tribulation will be the time of Jacob's trouble, which is also called the Great Tribulation.

[@normmcinnis4102]

It does in a human logic type way...

[@Jimmy-gk9rd]

Yes post trib plus the mulitude stading at the throne wjen the sixth seal is broken, the ones that died during the tribulation

[@MariaGomez-yr1zw]

Couldn't be any clearer. Thank you, Joel! Excellent study. The charts help to see it even clearer!

[@jarrettjb]

Yeah I don’t subscribe to either pre trib or post trib. Have close friends with both viewpoints. What’s cool is that these friends love and fear God, are being discipled and disciple others, and get people saved regularly! I think that’s most important.

[@RandyRoth-mo3lz]

If only your comment were true. You cant be loving and fearing God while rejecting Him and His commandments. 1)Jesus states that, "My sheep hear my voice and the voice of another they will not follow". If He directly stated that He comes after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31, and no Scripture even remotely states that He comes prior to tribulation... which voice told them about a rapture? 2) Peter tells us that there are men who twist Paul's teaching concerning Christ's return, as they do all of Scripture, and then he (now the Word of God) calls them "wicked" and tells us not to fall from our own steadfastness.... 2 Peter 3:10-18. Paul directly called the event "the resurrection of the dead"... 1 Cor 15:42-55.... no Scripture calls the event "the rapture". The resurrection of the dead does not occur until the heavens are destroyed.... Matt 24:35,36, Mark 13:31,32, Job 14:12, 2 Peter 3:10. Those martyred for not taking the mark are resurrected at the "first" resurrection... Rev 20:4-6. By offering in a rapture in lieu of the resurrection of the dead, the character of this event has been twisted to present something totally unbiblical... suggesting a rapture to heaven for 7 years... No Scripture states this false presentation, or deception surrounding the fabricated ideal.... if it did, the presenter could simply offer Scripture that states what they pretend. 3)Paul directly tells concerning our "gathering unto Him..." .. 2 Thess 2:1-3 that false teachers falsely teach that "our gathering unto Him.." is "at hand..." (imminent) without the man of perdition first revealed.... how do you answer Paul's direct pointing the finger at those who teach the doctrine of imminence? 4) After Jesus directly warns us "take heed that no man deceive you..."Matt 24: 3,4 concerning a direct question about the sign of His coming... He directly states that He comes after the tribulation... Matt 24:29-31. Sure if Scripture actually stated the opposite of Christ somewhere... offering a rapture prior to tribulation, the rapturist would be off the hook... and there wouldn't be anyone pointing out to you what Scripture states about the wickedness of the rapturist. To teach the opposite of Christ is to be antichrist... 1 John 2:18,19.... John tells us that these antichrists come from within the church. Why is it that you have no fear of the Lord concerning teaching the opposite of Christ?

[@jarrettjb]

@@RandyRoth-mo3lzplease stop your divisive labeling and unnecessary negative language amongst sincere and real followers of Jesus.

[@RandyRoth-mo3lz]

@@jarrettjb Please help me out on what you mean by divisive labeling and unnecessary negative language.... Seems to me, that quoting Scripture rubs you....

[@RandyRoth-mo3lz]

@@BobbyU808 Did you actually read the passages of Scripture that were sited? Seems like your issue is not with me, but the Word of God.

[@jarrettjb]

@@RandyRoth-mo3lz OK I’ll help you out. Stop being another Christian with the gift of finding and focusing on what you think is wrong about that person’s beliefs. No one wants to hear you. Apply some people skills and try to find what’s right with someone before anything else.

[@markhaszoe-life6337]

Thanks Joel, great study

[@jerseycowboy1]

Pretrib claim the elect are Israel because they are dispensationalists, and separate Israel and the church, but Christ came to put both jew and gentile in one body. Pretrib separate the body and keep the middle wall of partition up.

[@seanc2788]

There is a huge difference between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. You can be one but not the other.

[@jamescole3152]

Revelation 7 shows them being separate. Read it.

[@normmcinnis4102]

There are those of us who don't

[@dougenosh6772]

@@seanc2788 True, but a spiritual Jew who doesn't believe the Messiah has come yet, still doesn't qualify. I once thought that there were three types of people described in Revelation: Christian Saints, traditional Jews, and non-believers. I'm not there now. The description of the two witnesses changed my view. They were described as "two olive trees and two lamp stands". To me that has to mean each are both Jewish and Christian. Most of Revelation is judgment and not wrath. There will be significant time for all people, non-Christian Jew and non-believing gentiles, to come to Christ before the last day. In the end though, there are only sheep and goats, believers in Christ and non believers. Once I settled my own mental arguments on these (and other similar topics), it became pretty clear to me that there are not three kinds of people, but only two.

[@seanc2788]

@@dougenosh6772 Okay technically you can be a Jew who believes in Messiah, and therefore ethnic and spiritual Israel. But I still don't even like that definition, because a Messianic Jew is still an ethnic Jew. A Gentile who comes to Christ is a spiritual Jew. They are the one grafted in to the Tree. Jesus is the root, the Jews are the trunk and the Gentiles are the branches. At least that is how I see it. Revelation 21- Those who survive the Tribulation will enter the Millennium as mortals. The nations spoken of in verse 24 are the mortals that survived the Millennium. On the new earth there will be 3 groups of people: 1) A group of righteous people from various nations who possess mortal bodies just like Adam and Eve before the fall. 2) The nation of Israel who also possess mortal bodies like Adam and Eve. 3) The church who possess glorified bodies. The church is the only group that will live in the New Jerusalem. The nations are not part of the church or the Bride of Christ because the implication is they live outside the city. The angel clearly states that the bride of Christ inhabits the city. The two witnesses are most likely Moses and Elijah. Moses represents the law. Elijah represents the prophets. The ministry of these two is to bear witness that the law and the prophets proclaim the Lordship of Jesus as the Messiah. These two witnesses will be in the city of Jerusalem (old not new) at the Temple, prophesying to the Jews about Jesus Christ. They play a pivotal role in Israel being converted as a nation. The minister during the first half of the Tribulation. As the Temple is being constructed they reveal the spiritual significance of everything the priest does and how it points to Jesus as the Messiah. The sheep and the goats are representative of the mortals during the Tribulation. Those countries and people who help Israel will be considered sheep and the rest will be the goats.

[@JP-jq1qx]

Excellent teaching! This teaching is a prerequisite to studying Rev. If people buy into pre-trib, they will not take Revelation seriously at all, but just read it casually because it is meant for others.

[@jamescole3152]

5th seal shows the church on earth.

[@Joel-dl1mx]

@@jamescole3152 … and the 7th seal reveals silence in heaven and then soon after, the loud praises of those “coming out of the great tribulation” thankful to God for their salvation before the seven trumpets initiating His wrath…

[@gtw4546]

Even worse, they use Revelation as a tool of emotional manipulation to create false believers who will go up to an altar call, do a repeat-after-me mockery of repentance, and they go out and make others hate Christians because they are such a bad witness. Tares are sown among the wheat so someone can feel like they got a notch in their evangelism belt.

[@Joel-dl1mx]

@@gtw4546 and certainly appears to be the deceit The Lord warned us about as well as Paul’s admonition “to not be deceived in any way”. Such a shame.

[@archangel_one]

@@jamescole3152 No, it doesn't. There will be many saved during the Tribulation. But remember, the Holy Spirit has to be taken away FIRST. And that means the Church with Him.

[@Bazooka_Sharks]

Ive known pre trib wasnt true since i was like 9 or 10, i read revelation and didnt see anywhere where it was like the left behind movies 😂 im like uhhh this big vanishing isnt here lol

[@boedmonds5514]

Great teaching! Right on target!💯🎯

[@jamescole3152]

A very good comparison of 2 verses. Well done!

[@archangel_one]

Except which tribulation? The Tribulation of the Saints, which is now, or the Great Tribulation which Jeremiah calls the time of Jacob's Trouble?

[@cynthiagasner2412]

One time He meets believers in the air. 7 years later He lands with His foot on the Mt of Olives.

[@donsjober]

Regarding this subject, years ago when I was a new born again believer, I prayed to God one night asking for the answer about post & pre- trib rapture? I was woken up during my sleep after hearing a strong masculine voice that said... "NO BODY GO'S UNTIL THE SEVEN!" Will never forget that voice! Just thought I would share this. Thank you and God Bless...

[@MATTHEW-ic3id]

Lots of people have also had visions and heard a voice that says pre-trib. More pre-trib people on KZbin have claimed to have visions about it than post.

[@stephenszucs8439]

@@MATTHEW-ic3id Yes, I keep seeing the videos, "God told me the Rapture will be Easter day 2020." "God showed me the Rapture will be on Yom Kippur this year!" (2021) "God told me to get ready! The rapture will happen this week!" (3 weeks ago) and on and on and on and on and on and on...........................

[@warriophecy8499]

@donsjober So, did you test the spirit? Apparently, you did not as the bible speaks to a pre-trib rapture. This spirit tickled your ears and has led you astray. You can return to Him (See Rev 3:18-20). Ask Christ to anoint your eyes such that you see Him again, your first love; then, be zealous and repent of your heresies (ies), your lawlessness against the Word of God. Then, say a new salvation statement to the Lord such that you sup with Him and He with you. Christ will forgive you, as He abundantly pardons. I have completed this step multiple times when I was led off His path. The thing is to repent and then get back on the horse again, as Satan deceives the whole world. But can you get back up and continue the race? I do not judge nor condemn you or anyone else. I merely declare the truth, while contending for the faith, as it is, not as I want it to be but as Christ teaches/Holy Spirit reveals. One's own words will either justify or condemn them on that day (Matt 12:37). For Christ will not come to judge the wicked, as the words He has spoken will judge them (John 12:47-48). I warn out of love while contending for the faith to those walking on the broad road. I am a watchman on the wall for the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@stephenszucs8439]

@@warriophecy8499 You imagine that people are lost or saved based on whether they believe the fever dreams of a sick teenage girl from the 1800's, living in the cradle of new heresies. Where do you get such an aberrant and abhorrent mindset? Spirit led? No. The Spirit does NOT contradict the Bible. It is always a dead give-away of a weak position when the FIRST comment you make is an ad hominem attack. If your theory held water, you would state the evidence. Lacking evidence, You decide to over-rule God and damn 99% of the body of Christ who do not hold your pet fantasy. Shame on you!

[@ShamelesslyRed]

@@warriophecy8499 what do you say to your brothers and sisters in the body of Christ who believe tribulation has already begun as they watch others in the body of Christ suffer persecution and death for their witness in Christ?

[@JesusChrist-theSonofGod-isLord]

Christ died when we were yet sinners, not when we were pre, mid or post tribbers. Now the God of patience and consolation grant us to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus, that we may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Amen.🙏🏼❤

[@jarrettjb]

Well, said my friend. While growing up my dad constantly stressed the most important thing in our faith, loving my neighbor as myself. A dynamic and actionable daily love. He always told me that I’d have enough trouble doing that, and to stay out of and forget all the Christian squabbling amongst ourselves.

[@timothyhutson1333]

Amen! I am blessed to have been around wonderful Bible studying Christians all of my life and am very knowledgeable about scripture and believe that we should "study to show ourselves approved". With that being said, it is unbelievable to me that so many are "right", but they all believe something different! People need to quite using scripture to prove how correct they are and how wrong everybody else is. We waste a lot of time and energy "proving our point" while a lost and dying world just needs to see us showing love to each other, so that they will know we are His disciples!

[@timothyhutson1333]

I want to emphasize that I'm not speaking about just this particular video but the hundreds that are all over youtube. Many who get into this fray are wonderful Christian people and mean well, but please just look at the number of videos that are arguing all different aspects of the rapture and tribulation.

[@toddrosvold9233]

Yes, in the same way you should love Jehovah Witnesses. But, to be clear Jesus says "every word" is important and as one must in 2 Timothy 2:15 be "rightly dividing", as has been presented here (in love and grace) .

[@rickmead9366]

yes we are not getting pulled up without trials. agree with your position. even just reading about the seals makes sense. opening the seals is not declaring wrath. even when I was a baby Christian I remember reading about the abomination that causes desolation. I thought I might see this in my life. and it stuck with me even though my church thought me to always stay right with God or I will miss the rapture.

[@dougenosh6772]

For me, I am not even convinced that the opening of all the seals occur within the seven year tribulation. Nothing, nowhere gives a time table. Even if we look at the opening verses in Matt 24 which seems to parallel Rev 6, Jesus says right out, but this is not the end. For all we know the first rider has been seeking control (conquer) for decades or even centuries, or longer. Remember it says set out "conquering and to conquer." To me, this is building a system by which people will agree to fall in line. May view conquer at via war, but Alexander conquered many lands without battles. Just kind of rode in and planted a flag and the people complied.

[@kimwestwood8840]

Life isn't hard enough , is without trials, misery, loss, disease? I beg to disagree with that point. There are many who suffer for the sake of Christ right now.

[@theKingsAmbassadors]

Christians have always been in trial and tribulation. Look at the Early Church, those were tribulation as real as can get.

[@toddrosvold9233]

[2Ti 2:15 KJV] 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[@OgunoleAdegboyega]

This video is one of the most convincing explation to clarify my understanding of the post trib rapture. Tribulations of the saints started since the days of John the Baptizer, and will only end when Christ returns. Wrath of God on the Babylonian System is some are mistaken for Tribulation.

[@Jimmy-gk9rd]

Rev.-3:10 people that don't believe in pre trib explain this verse

[@craiglathrop5576]

Stay in His light brother

[@SoniaAzam7]

That’s right. The scripture are so clear if read without assumption presumption and bias (pre trib)

[@paulbrennan4163]

Yes Sonia, the scriptures are clear - in support of a pre-trib rapture. The arguments in this video on the other hand have already been totally refuted.

[@theKingsAmbassadors]

Noah must ENTER the ark first. The rains came 7 days after the righteous were separated from the unrepentant and unbelievers.🌨 This is Christ's own prophecy of the event. There is a 7 day space, before the rains /Troubles pour down. Tribulation Saints are not called The Church in Revelation (Of course they are part of it but the distinction by John is made. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:37, KJV) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (Matthew 24:38, KJV) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Matthew 24:39, KJV)

[@callingallhandsondeck]

Thankful, you're frequently covering this. Just watched part of a pre-trib video. He said he doesn't see Christians making it past September. I just sighed. I care enough about others that it sincerely bothers me. I hope they are led to videos like this that state exactly & clearly what scripture says.

[@huggybear1996]

Hi. Was that CJ Lovik? He literally named a date for the Lord's return in 2031.

[@archangel_one]

The time of the Rapture and the time around September have always been linked because of the comparison between those feasts, the rapture, and marriage. So that part is no big deal. But many forget that there is the Tribulation of the Saints, which is a time of great tribulation (which is the time that we are in NOW). But it is not the Great Tribulation itself (which is for Israel). This tribulation will get worse and worse. During this time, so-called christians will be turning the true Church in, thinking that they are doing God a service or a favor. This will be the time of Great Apostasy, a time of falling away. According to Jesus, there will only be a few remaining. Presumably, a great many will be tormented and/or executed. Jesus said it will be very few who will be saved, comparing this time period to the time of Noah and Lot. Presumably, this end-time will be the same as Lot's time, not enough Christians (righteous) left to spare them the judgement. The Holy Spirit will be removed, and therefore the Church with it, and only "Lot" will be saved.

[@eulosasil1360]

I agree, conformed that NO RAPTURE will happen before the tribulation, the saints shall endure until the glorious appearing of Yeshua after the great tribulation.

[@paulbrennan4163]

Why, because you say so?

[@kenklein9228]

Exactly as scripture tell us!

[@paulbrennan4163]

@@kenklein9228 Where does scripture say that no rapture will happen before the tribulation?

[@toddrosvold9233]

@@paulbrennan4163 Holy Scripture says, contrary to Nelson Darby's teaching: [Jhn 6:39-40, 44, 54 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. ... 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. ... 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [Jhn 11:24 KJV] 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. And What scripture do you have that supports a pre-trib rapture false teaching that started with John Nelson Darby's false teachings in the 1800s?

[@vikinglobo2415]

It baffles me that those who believe the pre-trib theory dismiss the words of our Lord to fit their beliefs.

[@archangel_one]

Believing in a pre-tribulation Rapture is like believing Lot was saved BEFORE the hellfire and brimstone of Sodom and Gomorrah's judgement. Believing in a pre-tribulation Rapture is like believing the Groom is coming for His Bride.

[@Joel-dl1mx]

@@archangel_one Revelation 21:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, Whom do you believe the Bride to be?

[@archangel_one]

@@Joel-dl1mx The Church is the Bride of Christ. Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. That's why we called marriage "Holy Matrimony" because it is a shadow, an example of things to come. It's why a bride take's her husband's name. Rev_22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. Edit: Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

[@Joel-dl1mx]

@@archangel_one Isaiah 54:5-9 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off,says your God. For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you. In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer. “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you. Romans 11:25-27 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” The New Jerusalem with all of its’ residents (Jew first then the grafted in Gentile) are the wife of the Lamb. The Church makes up part of her. Rightly referenced, Christ is the head and we are His body (one Spirit, one flesh). To say the Church is the Lamb’s wife, is to deny God’s complete purpose.

[@paulbrennan4163]

@@Joel-dl1mx So how do you interpret this passge: "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that *it refers to Christ and the church."* (Ephesians 5:31-32) And this one: "I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. *I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him."* (2 Corinthians 11:2)

[@dannymack9636]

The church of Smyrma did it for me, why would God put the church of Smyrma through tribulation and not the pre tribers especially when the church of Smyrma has treasures stored in heaven. Doesn't make sense does it.

[@robertwalther4411]

I watched your video a while ago and wrote a lengthy refutation. But I needed to edit and refine it before posting it, and it's length discouraged me, and I never posted it. However, after watching one of Hank Hanegraaff's videos recently, I just couldn't take it anymore and wrote a lengthy proof, based solidly on a lot of relevant scripture, proving that there is a pretribulation rapture of the church. I do greatly appreciate your calm, non-belittling and unarrogant way of presenting your position. However, I think you would profit greatly from reading what I have posted below because it covers both of the scriptures you are expounding upon plus a whole lot more, and it soundly establishes the fact that there is a rapture of the church and that the rapture is before the entire tribulation (the seventieth week of Daniel in Daniel chapter 9), not just the last three and a half years, which is the great tribulation. (I'm not implying that you teach a mid-tribulation rapture. I'm only defining where it occurs in the future timeline.) In the Book of Revelation, in chapter 6, the first six seals are opened. The sixth seal is opened after considerable suffering on the Earth. When the seal is opened, the cosmic disturbances described in Joel 2:30-31 take place as well as every island and mountain on Earth being moving out of its place, ending with the people on Earth trying to hide from "...the presence of Him who sits upon the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" This is followed by the trumpet and bowl judgements of the wrath of God in Revelation. It's quite obvious that this is the Day of the Lord described in scripture. It lasts for 3.5 years, the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel, also known as the great tribulation, prophesied in Daniel chapter 9. In 1 Thessalonians Paul unquestionably says that the church is delivered from the Day of the Lord. First, at the end of chapter 1, he says that we are waiting for God's Son from Heaven, "...Jesus, Who delivers us from the wrath to come." Then in chapter 5, after explaining the removal of Christians from the Earth in chapter 4 (the rapture), he explains the Day of the Lord, how it will destroy the unsaved unexpectedly, how they will not escape, and how it will not overtake Christians, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ...that... we may live together with Him." This clearly establishes the Church as being delivered from the Day of the Lord, the Great Tribulation, BEFORE it begins. In Matthew 24 Jesus says that He comes to Earth to rescue the elect AFTER the Day of the Lord: "But immediately after the tribulation of those days [the Day of the Lord], the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken [in other words, the cosmic disturbances in Joel 2:30-31 happen again], and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the tribes of the Earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And he will send forth His angels with a great trumpet...and they will gather together His elect from the four winds...." So we learn that after considerable suffering on Earth during which more than a quarter of the Earth's population is destroyed followed by another third of what is left plus all the other millions killed in other ways, not to mention the total destruction of the environment, Jesus comes and gathers his elect. That's at least 3.5 years after the Church is delivered from the Day of the Lord (raptured) because it happens AFTER the Day of the Lord, whereas the Church is removed BEFORE the Day of the Lord. So we see that the church is taken from the Earth, then the Day of the Lord occurs, then Jesus returns to deliver the elect (all the people saved during the Great Tribulation that were not martyred by the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet). That puts the rapture years before Jesus returns to reign on Earth. Additionally, it's absurd to believe that Christians will be protected supernaturally "from the wrath to come" while remaining on Earth as some argue. Nobody can go through worldwide judgements like that without suffering. Christians will be removed just as Enoch was removed, Lot was removed, and John was taken to Heaven (as a type of the church) to watch the Day of the Lord transpire from Heaven. The only exception to this, because it is a small group of people who are relatively close to an area of protection, is the people in Israel, mostly Jews, who see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place and flee to the mountains as instructed to do so by Jesus in Matthew 24, where they are indeed supernaturally protected, probably in Petra. In other words, they are also “removed,” but to a different location than Heaven. The only acceptable conclusion to all of this is that there is a rapture, and it is years before the return of the Lord Jesus to reign. Finally, because the book sealed with seven seals, that only Jesus was found qualified to open, contains the infliction of the Day of the Lord upon the Earth and other preceding judgements as a comprehensive whole, the rapture must occur before the whole scroll, seven years before Jesus returns. There is at least one more issue that is important to point out: Jesus says that "But when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel standing in the Holy Place, let him who is in Judea flee to the mountains...for then there will be great tribulation...." In and around 70 C.E. that event never happened. That proves that Jesus was talking about a time yet future even to this day. These events were not fulfilled in the first century as some say. Therefore, the pretribulation rapture is the truth, not the other concoctions that never take much of the scripture into account.

[@brucebishop9021]

Well done!

[@danielramsey197]

I really enjoy these comparisons and how you lay them out. Good stuff!

[@chrispicquet733]

I truly believe that the Great Falling away that the Lord is speaking about in Matt. 24 9-13 states that when the Chosen are Arrested, the pre tribbers will fold,and lose faith. But those that Endure unto The End, shall be Saved!

[@gracekopec1703]

It’s all for the Jeeeeeews!!!!!!!!!!!!’ Just busting your chops there Joel great job

[@lucillefreer8339]

I used to believe in the pretribulation until I started to really search the scriptures. When I read Matthew 24:29-31 and 2 Thess 2:1 where Paul was saying concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, he said let no one deceive you for that day will not come, unless the falling away comes first and the antichrist is revealed. The pre-trib believers miss interpret this scripture and says that the church is the restrainer. I am not sure who is the restainer but it is not the church. Thank you, brother for sharing the truth with us. God Bless!🥰

[@awake780]

Pre-tribbers believe they will not see the antichrist. Your Scripture references so clearly establish that as another false belief they hold.

[@kayandbradvincent6643]

The restrained is the Holy Spirit

[@awake780]

@@kayandbradvincent6643 purely conjecture.

[@jeice452]

The restrainer is the Angel

[@stephenszucs8439]

@@kayandbradvincent6643 That doesn't work. Holy Spirit is GOD. He cannot be removed from anywhere. Also, the persons of the Godhead have roles. Holy Spirit is teacher, guide, the one who calls us to repentance. If Holy Spirit AND every solitary believer on earth were all suddenly removed, it would not be remotely possible for anyone new to come to faith in the Savior. Therefore, all of those saints who die for not taking the Mark of the Beast come from???????

[@Jerrymc1975]

So post tribbers can’t understand that apparently as in the days of Noah means absolutely nothing. It’s mot hard to figure the logic. Post tribbers don’t understand what the tribulation is if they think people will be eating, drinking , marrying, basically going about business as usual at the end of the tribulation. Need to wake up and ask God for guidance

[@HeatherSierra-um6lz]

ONLY ONE COMING TWO GROUPS. GOD BLESS

[@derrelleggert5953]

Your explanation and approach are very interesting. Got some studying to do!

[@EverlastingLife-pl9ug]

Yes, ex-pre-trib. here! Seems so clear!

[@followerofoneandonly]

These two passages in Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 refer to two separate events. I'll explain why. Jesus was answering his disciples when they asked Him in Matthew 24:3 "what will be the SIGN of your coming?" And Jesus spoke about his 2nd coming, which is what's described here. It'll be a globally visible event. Here Paul is addressing a concern of Thessalonians described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 that the DAY OF THE LORD or wrath of God has already come, that they are in the midst of it and they somehow missed the gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED TO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us-whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter-asserting that the DAY OF THE LORD has already come." And then goes on to say that the DAY OF THE LORD won't come until the man of lawlessness is revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed". There are other passages that confirm the rapture. John 14:1-4 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.” The 2nd coming is when Jesus comes down to earth, defeats the enemies of Israel and establishes the millennial kingdom. Jesus isn't rapturing us to come back down immediately and establish His kingdom. If that were the case, then why would Jesus say that there are many rooms in His Fathers house. When His reign is on earth.

[@paulbrennan4163]

It's a total lie. I posted an answer to this "unanswerable" question months ago. People who try to make Matthew 24:31 sound like the rapture only point out the similarities involved and fail to say anything about the differences. Not only are the precursors to the gathering in Matthew 24 totally missing from Paul's description of the rapture, only someone with incredibly sloppy hermeneutics would assume that the term "from the four winds", is a reference to "air". That particular term is an idiom. It is commonly used in scripture to describe the four compass directions and as such has nothing to do with the rapture. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "THE LORD HIMSELF" will come down from heaven with the archangel. In Matthew 24 all we see the Lord himself doing is sending angels. But what I find worse than that is that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the context of the time it was written and the audience to whom Jesus was addressing! Jesus was by his own confession was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. This is why he exclusively mentions Jewish issues such as fleeing to the mountains in Judea, the problems of doing so during the Sabbath, being flogged in synagogues, looking for their Messiah, and so on. So why would he then suddenly confuse them by speaking about a predominately gentile church being raptured? The church did not exist at the time, and the rapture was a mystery scheduled to be revealed decades later by Paul. It wouldn't make any sense to them! What would have made perfect sense to them was the fact that Jesus was speaking about a matter that they would have immediately recognized. For unlike people today who are actively peering through the text looking for a rapture account to support their view, these people were waiting for something that was promised in the Bible of _their_ time - the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel! It would obviously involve exactly the kind of things that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:31 - a gathering, a loud trumpet blast, and the use of idioms in the old testament used to describe gathering, such as "the four winds", "four quarters", and the "four corners of the earth". While these idioms are not used anywhere to describe the rapture, they were used to describe what happens when people are attacked and exiled from their countries and also when regathering them. We see it used as an idiom to describe *SCATTERING* in four directions: "I will bring against Elam the *four winds* from the *four quarters of heaven;* I will *scatter them to the four winds* .." (Jeremiah 49:36) And "Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north," declares the Lord, "for I have *scattered you to the four winds of heaven,"* declares the Lord." (Zechariah 2:6) And then we see it used to describe *GATHERING* from four directions: "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children *from the east.* and gather you *from the west.* I will say *to the north,* ‘Give them up!’ and *to the south,* ‘Do not hold them back.’" (Isaiah 43:5-6) And "He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will *assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."* (Isaiah 11:12) What we see when we study these OT prophecies is that the dispersion of the tribes of Israel would only be for a limited period of time, and that once that period of time has expired they would all be brought back to their country. Since only the southern kingdom (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) have returned, we know that this prophecy has only partially been fulfilled. The rest of this prophecy must therefore take place in the end times. If not then God would be a liar. Notice now that the tribes that were to be brought back from the Babylonian exile were never told to listen for the sound of any trumpet. In the case of the 10 remaining tribes returning from the Assyrian exile however, their gathering WILL be summoned by the sound of a "great trumpet": "And *in that day a great trumpet will sound.* Those who were perishing in Assyria and *those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem."* (Isaiah 27:13) But there is even more to this than that! Notice how the events that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:29-31 line up closely with what we see in Revelation 6:12-7:1-8, and that they follow the exact the same sequence: *MATTHEW:* The sun and moon turn dark (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The sun turns black … the moon turns blood red" (Revelation 6:12) *MATTHEW:* The stars fall from the sky (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The stars in the sky fell to earth (Revelation 6:13) *MATTHEW:* All the tribes of the earth grieve (Matthew 24:30) *REVELATION:* "They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?" (Revelation 6:13) So when we see these how these events line up perfectly with each other, shouldn't we expect to see the next event also line up? This is _exactly_ what we see: *MATTHEW:* "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:31) *REVELATION:* "After this I saw four angels standing at the *four corners of the earth,* holding back the *four winds of the earth* to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from *ALL the tribes of Israel."* (Revelation 7:1-4) What Jesus was referring to is not the rapture, but the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel.

[@paulbrennan4163]

It is a total lie. I answered this "unanswerable" question here months ago. In fact I have done so countless times in the comments section of many videos without any post-tribber being able to refute it.

[@paulbrennan4163]

People who try to make Matthew 24:31 sound like the rapture only point out the similarities involved and fail to say anything about the differences. Not only are the precursors to the gathering in Matthew 24 totally missing from Paul's description of the rapture, only someone with incredibly sloppy hermeneutics would assume that the term "from the four winds", is a reference to "air". That particular term is an idiom. It is commonly used in scripture to describe the four compass directions and as such has nothing to do with the rapture. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "THE LORD HIMSELF" will come down from heaven with the archangel. In Matthew 24 all we see the Lord himself doing is sending angels. But what I find worse than that is that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the context of the time it was written and the audience to whom Jesus was addressing! Jesus was by his own confession was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. This is why he exclusively mentions Jewish issues such as fleeing to the mountains in Judea, the problems of doing so during the Sabbath, being flogged in synagogues, looking for their Messiah, and so on. So why would he then suddenly confuse them by speaking about a predominately gentile church being raptured? The church did not exist at the time, and the rapture was a mystery scheduled to be revealed decades later by Paul. It wouldn't make any sense to them! What would have made perfect sense to them was the fact that Jesus was speaking about a matter that they would have immediately recognized. For unlike people today who are actively peering through the text looking for a rapture account to support their view, these people were waiting for something that was promised in the Bible of _their_ time - the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel! It would obviously involve exactly the kind of things that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:31 - a gathering, a loud trumpet blast, and the use of idioms in the old testament used to describe gathering, such as "the four winds", "four quarters", and the "four corners of the earth". While these idioms are not used anywhere to describe the rapture, they were used to describe what happens when people are attacked and exiled from their countries and also when regathering them. We see it used as an idiom to describe *SCATTERING* in four directions: "I will bring against Elam the *four winds* from the *four quarters of heaven;* I will *scatter them to the four winds* .." (Jeremiah 49:36) And "Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north," declares the Lord, "for I have *scattered you to the four winds of heaven,"* declares the Lord." (Zechariah 2:6) And then we see it used to describe *GATHERING* from four directions: "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children *from the east.* and gather you *from the west.* I will say *to the north,* ‘Give them up!’ and *to the south,* ‘Do not hold them back.’" (Isaiah 43:5-6) And "He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will *assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."* (Isaiah 11:12) What we see when we study these OT prophecies is that the dispersion of the tribes of Israel would only be for a limited period of time, and that once that period of time has expired they would all be brought back to their country. Since only the southern kingdom (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) have returned, we know that this prophecy has only partially been fulfilled. The rest of this prophecy must therefore take place in the end times. If not then God would be a liar. Notice now that the tribes that were to be brought back from the Babylonian exile were never told to listen for the sound of any trumpet. In the case of the 10 remaining tribes returning from the Assyrian exile however, their gathering WILL be summoned by the sound of a "great trumpet": "And *in that day a great trumpet will sound.* Those who were perishing in Assyria and *those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem."* (Isaiah 27:13) But there is even more to this than that! Notice how the events that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:29-31 line up closely with what we see in Revelation 6:12-7:1-8, and that they follow the exact the same sequence: *MATTHEW:* The sun and moon turn dark (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The sun turns black … the moon turns blood red" (Revelation 6:12) *MATTHEW:* The stars fall from the sky (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The stars in the sky fell to earth (Revelation 6:13) *MATTHEW:* All the tribes of the earth grieve (Matthew 24:30) *REVELATION:* "They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?" (Revelation 6:13) So when we see these how these events line up perfectly with each other, shouldn't we expect to see the next event also line up? This is _exactly_ what we see: *MATTHEW:* "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:31) *REVELATION:* "After this I saw four angels standing at the *four corners of the earth,* holding back the *four winds of the earth* to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from *ALL the tribes of Israel."* (Revelation 7:1-4) What Jesus was referring to is not the rapture, but the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel.

[@Ben-ge7yt]

When the restrainer is taken out of the way, the tribulation starts…(2.Thessalonicher 2) So some rapture before Tribulation? What is about „I will also keep you from the hour of trial“ (rev 3:10)? Sounds as if the rapture for Philadelphia is before the tribulation! The other churches go through the tribulation.

[@chrispicquet733]

Yes, i was just in a spiritual disagreement with an individual that replied to my comment on post trib website. He actually got hostile, and leveled a personal attack towards me due to my comment! I responded by sending him 4 undeniable scriptures. Matt. 24:26-31; The 5th Seal: Rev.6:9-11; Rev. 7:9-17.( The Slain that came out of the Great Tribulation), and Matt. 16:24-28. States: verse 25: "For whoever wants to save their life will Lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it!" I let him know that his gripe isn't with me, it's with the Lord! His words! Not Mine,i said.

[@huggybear1996]

Here's a questions that utterly destroys a pre-trib rapture: If, as pre-trib advocates believe, Jesus is coming before the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, why does Jesus warn about false sightings of himself...7 years later, in Matthew 24?

[@kenklein9228]

Very good!

[@snackpup]

he is talking to jews in judeah who obviously did not get saved by the gospel but got left behind for Jacobs trouble the last 7 years of daniels prophecy . and they have to hold the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments. faith plus works. unlike now which is faith plus nothing what to do if you miss the rapture kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZDTiqVoYrpmns0si=kgu3nZ3Ru4zHFbpd

[@db7354]

Excellent point.

[@snackpup]

Because you will think you can go up after the rapture. But you can't. They are setting a trap for you

[@kenklein9228]

@@snackpup The trap is Dispensational balderdash that persuades Christians of the idea that the gospels and all letters except Paul's are written to Jews rather than Christians.

[@nelliemoore3792]

Thank you Joel & FAI for All of your excellent work 🙏.🕊️👣

[@srf6827]

Thank you for showing the charts. Seeing the comparisons is a great tool!

[@visionpurposehope7158]

I don't believe I saw Daniel and Revelation in there. What about Parallels with Noah, Sodom and Gomorrah and how God saved them? Or, Enoch and the Jewish timeline, Jewish wedding parallel.

[@warriophecy8499]

@@visionpurposehope7158 That's because there are no parallels between these passages. One merely has to take a look at the Greek to know and understand that what Joel and Dalton are feeding to their followers is false, a damning lie. Please go to this URL to see the grammatical colon that follows after "immeditely after the tribulation of those days", changing the entire meaning of the sentence. Matt 24:29-31 - A colon is missing in this passage in all English translations due to Jesuits being on all translation committees, causing all to purposely err such that they are lost to Christ. In the Greek interlinear Bible, a colon immediately comes after "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" drawing the reader's attention to the list of items after the colon which are 1) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light 2) the stars will fall from heaven, 3) and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. So, these are the events or tribulation (grouped together as a single event) of those days that will cause consternation of the nations. By the way, the pretrib rapture occurs just before the stars strike the earth as per Rev 12:4B (cause) and 1 Kings 19:11-12. Back to Matthew, then seven years later, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." when Jesus returns at His Second Coming. The gathering of His elect from the four corners of heaven and earth occurs at the time of the pretrib rapture when Christ gathers the spirits in heaven who come back with Him and He gathers those in and on the four corners of the Earth who will rise into the clouds to meet Him in the air. Individual scriptures are not necessarily listed in order of occurrence. This is why the Bible says "rightly dividing the Word of God" and that its "precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; ""here a little there a little."" " (Isaiah 28:10) Soon, this year or sometime through the beginning of fall 2027, there will be three days/nights of blackness and darkness that encompasses the whole world, as prophesied (Matt 12:39-40) in which the pretrib rapture will occur (Days of Noah; days of Lot; days of Jews' exodus from Egypt, Isaiah 66:7-9; Rev 4:1-2, 12:5). This is the night when no one can work (John 9:4). If you are an apostate believing/espousing lies against Him, you must return to Him by the time of the blackness or darkness or you will be forever separated from Him. I do not judge nor condemn you or anyone else. I merely declare the truth. One's own words will either justify or condemn them on that day (Matt 12:37). For Christ will not come to judge the wicked, as the words He has spoken will judge them (John 12:47-48). I warn out of love, while contending for the faith.. I am a watchman on the wall for my Lord Jesus Christ.

[@ladyhawkNone]

I think we will go through some of the tribulationbut not the wrath.

[@jamescole3152]

Of course. The tribulation is not the wrath of God.

[@dougenosh6772]

@@jamescole3152 Well, most of the 7 year period is judgment, not wrath. Maybe tribulation isn't the best word to use there. Peter said we would all endure "fiery tribulation". Its sort of an all encompassing word to me. In reality, the Great Tribulation refers to only the last 3.5 years. The idea of a 7 year period is only packaged that way because the first 3.5 years marks what follows. As far as I have studied, the only defined events in the first 3.5 years is that the Jews will resume animal sacrifices. Beyond that, I have not found any biblical proof placing any other events within that period. And here is some thoughts for you, while Israel is performing the animal sacrificed in the first 3.5 years, they are at peace. What I have never satisfied in my own mind is how can there be total chaos all over the planet as we mentally depict, if Israel is at peace? It points out to me, that events told in Rev 6, for one, are mot likely within the seven year period, but rather over a larger time frame of maybe decades or even centuries.

[@veronicastuart714]

This is how I understand.. the first part is significant tribulations, persecution caused by the evils of this world. Yet we are Not destined to Wrath

[@biruitori1507]

One of the best channel on KZbin God Bless You

[@eddieelliott8714]

What’s the purpose of sealing the 144,000 in Revelation if the entire body of believers who are sealed with the Ruach are still here preaching and teaching the gospel. Also, why would God give instructions in Rev not to hurt certain things but for the apple of his eye there are no instructions period plus there’s no mention of the church from Rev 4 -19 approx. etc etc

[@dougenosh6772]

Revelation defines who the 144,000 are. They are the representatives of the 12 tribes of Israel who are without blemish. As far as no mention of the church question, why would there be? Besides, as Paul addressed the churches in various letters, Saints was the word he use, which is the same word that John used in Revelation. Should we assume that Paul was not addressing the "church" when he wrote to the Saints? Note that the word "church" in Greek is eklesia meaning "assembly". Also note that the word in Hebrew is "qahal", which also means assembly. Moses used this word in (I think, if I remember right) Deuteronomy. Was Moses writing to the church? Revelation is not written to an assembly or gathering. It is written to all people to express the revelation of Christ.

[@kimwestwood8840]

amen

[@rudycummings4671]

Yes, it was helpful and edifying. Thank you very much

[@Docjam23]

Brother Joel, I have some homework for you, a bonus on this teaching if you will. Compare these two passages to Zechariah 9:14-16 Notably, the description of the arrow going forth as lightning, the Lord being seen over them, the Lord God blowing the trumpet (like Jesus said He would send forth His angels with the sound of a trumpet/the trump of God), and then His people being lifted up above the land like an ensign, like stones in a crown, put on display. Also notably Jesus goes south, which plays into your own idea of Him going to Mt Sinai. I believe both Jesus, and Paul were referring to this, and that Paul was referring to this as the Last Trump rather than the 7th trumpet in Revelation. Similar reasoning to you disputing the idea that Paul got 1 Thessalonians 4 purely from new revelation, what's the more reasonable interpretation.. that Paul was referring to Zechariah.. or that Paul was referring to a book that would not be written for decades after his death by means of new direct revelation? The 7th trumpet in revelation is not blown by Jesus, it is blown by an angel. This passage being referred to by Jesus, attributing Himself as the Lord God who blows the trumpet, is also a profound statement, of Jesus declaring Himself to be the Lord God Almighty outside of the Gospel of John. A lot of times Muslims will dispute that Jesus ever claimed to be God, thinking it as an invention of Paul's, and then saying John was a heretic because his gospel most clearly has Jesus identify Himself as God as well. But if statements like this are in all the gospels.. well, it's unavoidable, Jesus claimed to be God and the Muslims don't have anything to stand on.

[@kimwestwood8840]

I have been a Christian for 31 years this year by the grace of God. Today I see a lot division among believers concerning eternal security, what position you have about the rapture, and many other things. Whatever position we may hold, I think its important we be kind to one another, not belittling or rude which I see a lot of especially in the comment section. Some say, some believe that, on and on. Unless context, reference to the Greek, and hermeneutics is applied people make private interpretations. Concerning the rapture, I imagine the debate will be over very soon.

[@kenklein9228]

Sadly there IS a lot of division, and I suspect that we'll see even more in the coming years.

[@toddrosvold9233]

As Jesus said: [Mat 10:34-35 KJV] 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Jesus is the Truth. Whether it is between Christianity and other religions, or a Christian and a sinner, or amongst two Christians we must rightly discern the Truth and in love speak honestly be steadfast in defending the Truth. A scary scripture is: [Mat 7:21-23 KJV] 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I appreciate the honesty and grace with which this video was done as it clearly and plainly shows and teaches the scripture showing the Authority, continuity and consistency which one happily finds within it.

[@kimwestwood8840]

@@toddrosvold9233 Matthew 7:21-23 is an example of what non born again people can expect . These people were religious, talking about all the things they did, never once praising Jesus for what HE DID. As for the rapture, everyone believes they are right, claiming better understanding than others who disagree. All we have to do is wait and see. Most important thing is our salvation, being born again. Are you born again and have a relationship with Jesus?

[@toddrosvold9233]

@@kimwestwood8840 In the end, we are all in the hands of a righteous judge. He will divide the goats from the sheep. [Jhn 10:27 KJV] 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: He also says... [Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. It is clear historically, nobody taught about a pre-trib rapture in the church prior to John Nelson Darby. Similar to those that teach of a pre-trib rapture, Jehovah Witnesses trust in their beliefs... Yes, I am a born again Christian walking in the ever loving grace of God. I also believe if you seek the plain and clear reading of the Traditional Bible, our ultimate authority, and consider what was consistently taught in every generation you will know the truth as opposed to the many heretical ideas that trace back to some man's private interpretation. [Mat 25:31-34 KJV] 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [Jhn 6:40 KJV] 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. [Jhn 12:48 KJV] 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. May his Word light your path.

[@kimwestwood8840]

@@toddrosvold9233 Whatever position has on this topic, it is not a salvation issue.

[@chava2uk150]

What other religion would claim that the teaching of the founder (who is actually God) is trumped by that of a follower? That argument is ridiculous.

[@aeroflyte]

When Jesus returns, as a believer, why am I mourning?

[@ShamelesslyRed]

Believers won't be mourning. The world, as set against God, will be mourning

[@seanc2788]

Ha Ha Ha someone else finally caught that same thing that I saw. You can't be comforted by these words and also be in mourning at the same time!!! Two separate people groups. Two separate events!!

[@jamescole3152]

@@seanc2788 LOL. Not at all. Try reading Rev 6.

[@benny-yj7pq]

Yes, two separate events, but at the same day, not 7 years apart (Luke 17:29-37) @@seanc2788

[@seanc2788]

@@jamescole3152 I have read Revelation 6. Which part of it? Those are the people crying and dying and going to hell. Look at the rider of the pale horse more closely. Death and Hades follow him. I hope there are no Christians in that first 2 billion people who are killed because they are SOL if they are on the planet when the first year of the Tribulation begins. You don't see them come on the scene until the 5th seal. It takes time (and 4 horsemen) for people to finally realize the truth that the 144k are preaching. Then they start dying for the name of Christ. Otherwise if they don't die in His name they end up in hell. Study better.

[@theextreme7134]

Don't forget John 6:39 where Jesus says He will raise up ALL that the Father gives Him on the LAST DAY. ALL would include tribulation saints.

[@jamescole3152]

Yes. But what is your point? The last day is not the last day. There are many days after the rapture. Including the 1,000 year reign with Christ. It is the last day before the rapture.

[@theextreme7134]

@@jamescole3152 You don't get it. Jesus said He will raise up ALL on the last day. ALL is the key word. ALL would include ALL tribulation saints, which makes a pre, mid or split rapture impossible.

[@markellis7046]

Great comparison.

[@jamesbracken4618]

Two different events . !Thessalonians 4:16 says For the LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in CHRIST shall rise first: Matthew 24:31 says and he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds. That is a huge difference, pretrib the LORD himself is doing the gathering in the air, second coming his angels are doing the gathering. Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. There is the Church of believers in Heaven at the week long celebration of the Bride of Christ at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. 7 year tribulation. Then JESUS CHRIST and his bride return to earth to gather the elect from thr four winds.

[@wendymtzc]

Huge difference? 😳 Jesus sends HIS angels, so who’s running the show? What are the angels doing, gathering HIS elect, does it say they just leave them there, why gather them then, in the next chapter the wrath begins 🤷‍♀️… can you spot the similarities… angel(s), loud sound, trump, clouds; I think it’s pretty obvious that they are the same event.

[@johananswedlund7149]

Paul called the church a mistery not revealed previously if this is true it would make sense if the rapture is for the church then it would be separate event specifically for the church. The details of description of the rapture are incompatible with those for the second coming. The best way to reconcile the differences is that they refer to separate events.

[@zachsimmons382]

The Word plainly lays out a Post Tribulation rapture. A Pre Tribulation rapture is nowhere in scripture.

[@vikinglobo2415]

Exactly 💯.

[@marcusdenning1649]

U see , for most people the Bible is Relative, in other words it’s what u think it means. The rapture was never taught for the first 1850 yrs. No one believed it till 1850s. And it only applies to the American church!!

[@thomasmyers9128]

What happens after the 7 year Tribulation?…. or What stops the 7 year tribulation?….. Jesus comes down for his 1000 year reign…. So Jesus comes down and his church goes up to meet who? Revelations lays it out in order…. Chapter 1-4 talks about the church Then not a mention of the church until chapter 19…. Chapter 5-18 is describing what’s going on during the tribulation on earth… not one instruction for what the church is to do… not one word… until after it’s over…

[@marcusdenning1649]

@@thomasmyers9128 this is what u get when u interpret the Bible on your own. This is not why the Bible is for. Not for the man made churches to just make up interpretations. Can anyone tell me where the Bible originated and by whom? Those who believe in “the Rapture “ have no clue. Bible fairy’s in the sky is the usual explanation over hundreds of yrs. Just stop with the self interpretation stuff.

[@zachsimmons382]

@@thomasmyers9128 Christians will meet the Lord in the air and then come into Jerusalem with Him. Jesus lays the foundation for the entirety of all New Testament teaching about the End Times in the Gospels. Jesus says nothing about the rapture until “AFTER the Tribulation” (Matthew 24:29, Mark 13:24). Read it for yourself. Paul comes behind Him and says the same in 1 Thessalonians 15-17. And notice how Paul describes Jesus “descending from Heaven” BEFORE he mentions us being raptured. Again, read it for yourself. Concerning the “church not being mentioned beyond chapter 4” (I think you meant to say chapter 3), that’s not right at all. Any time in Revelation where you see mention of the “saints,” or “those who keep the commandments of God” or “those who have the testimony of Jesus,” or “those who were slain for the word of God,” it’s talking about believers AKA the Church. I can walk you through more scripture tomorrow if you want. It’s late so I’ll leave you with that and we can agree to disagree. God doesn’t contradict Himself. Jesus is not going to say the rapture isn’t until after the tribulation just to have Paul and John come behind Him and say it’s before.

[@brucebishop9021]

Paul was not making commentary on Matthew 24. What Paul taught is "incredibly clear", he taught what he received by "revelation" from the risen Christ. (You gave part of the pre-trib view but passed over that part.) Paul preached the mysteries, secrets not revealed before ( which include Matthew 24 .) It is incredibly clear that the Apostle Paul was the vessel chosen to dispense the mysteries of the dispensation of grace,( the church age. What is most reasonable is to believe what the Word says and not try to explain it through human reasoning. Mystery and prophecy are not the same thing. In Matthew 24, Jesus,on earth,was speaking of His Second coming to Earth (in power and great glory,not the rapture )when he comes to rule as King on earth, Spoken of in the Old Testament,what Peter was referring to when he wrote of the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow.

[@toml.3544]

Over 200 comments and much division, misunderstanding and misinterpretation. What's the real issue? Right/Wrong Pre, post, pre mil, post mil, saw mill? Ask this question: by not knowing the day or hour does it produce in you a desire to be pleasing to the Lord when he does return? While positionally we are with our Lord by faith, justified by his blood, until we die we're in a constant stat of sanctification until which time we get our glorified bodies or die and our souls wait with until glorification. The blessed hope as described in Titus 2:13 is preceded by instructions on how we should live Titus 2:12. This isnt all but certainly directs us correctly because we're all sinners who've fallen short of the Glory of the Lord. So we occupy, being the Salt and Light, sharing the Word when the Spirit prompts us. Going back to the Well to renew ourselves and come back into communion when we've fallen. The Spirit is speaking to all of you. We all see through a mirror darkly. God's Love for us is so tremendous we can't fathom the breadth, heigth, depth, or width. Lastly and most importantly is to Love God with all our hearts and Love our neighbors as ourselves. Simply pondering the magnitude of these two directives will grow in all of us a deeper relationship with our Lord and Savior and all those around us. God bless you all and may we all continue to seek our Lord with everything in us. ❤

[@mcgeorgerl]

Thanks, you made me chuckle.... "saw mill". Clever.

[@kimwestwood8840]

Amen well said

[@ingognito369]

How about the 24 elders being the raptured saints. Have you read chpt 19 , and every where else they are mentioned. In chp,5,7, etc

[@deborahvolck14]

Birth pains aren't enough!? Your interpretation says His saints must endure the wrath of God through & during the Tribulation-- "now comfort each other with these words"! Nope. Jesus whom I serve DOES NOT MAKE His believers go through Jacob's Trouble which is earmarked for the remnant of the Jews He made a civenant with [ie: the God we serve does not break His covenants or promises].

[@peop9653]

Day of wrath is just that it’s one day and not 7 years.

[@PamelaPohlman]

King James Version has from one end of heaven to another not sky proving that the saints are in heaven and when this happens 3:28 f

[@ThePreparedAdventist]

Very well done! While I don’t believe in a "7 year tribulation" in the first place, I'm "post-trib" in a manner of speaking and I'm definitely going to use some of these charts myself. I'll give proper attribution of course. (Just fyi, like most of the Protestant Reformers, I believe all of Daniel's 70 Weeks Prophecy in Daniel 9 was fulfilled in Jesus' time, and closed w the stoning of Stephen. Hence, there is no remaining "week," or 7 years, from that prophecy yet to be fulfilled.)

[@handles617]

Are you amillenial?

[@ThePreparedAdventist]

@@handles617 No. Historicist & premillenial (as opposed to preterist or futurist).

[@chironow3446]

The seven weeks ended in 70ish AD

[@ThePreparedAdventist]

@@chironow3446 We'll have to agree to disagree. Agreeably, I hope. 😊

[@fernandomaximoff3489]

Agreed! there is no 7 year tribulation, it's only 3 1/2 years. On the Daniel's week, I think Jesus completed the 7 week, but only the half as it says (when He died) and the other half (3 1/2) maybe belongs to THE GREAT TRIBULATION wich is the other 3 1/2 half

[@pauldelaney5990]

The pre tribbers have not mentally prepared themselves to endure through the hard times that are now coming upon us. I think that many of them will lose heart and fall away. That is the falling away mentioned in 2 Thess. We are now in the tribulation. Hold on to your faith in the Lord, and you'll be ok.

[@paulbrennan4163]

Your imagined scenario doesn't prove anything. I could just as easily claim that post-tribbers will fall away because they think they have a few extra years to clean up their act before Jesus comes. When Jesus comes unexpectedly - before the tribulation comes - is when they will start to say "Lord, lord!". The only way we can prepare for the rapture is to follow Jesus advice: “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36) it has to do with _conduct,_ not toughening up!

[@georgefeneysey619]

The Lord Jesus personally teaches, when He comes again. He teaches nothing of a secret coming. A secret coming is taught by those who usurp the teachings of Christ. Any doctrine that is taught today by ANYONE that is not founded in the teachings of Christ, is a false teaching. If the Lord Jesus teaches He comes immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, THEN, that should be sufficient for us.

[@robertogil792]

And you pretend yo stay alive and without Mark of the Beast til HE comes??? Wowwww, like every Post but the Truth will be another. Meat for the Antichrist.

[@toddrosvold9233]

To your point, the cult of the Jehovah Witnesses also profess a "spiritual" or secret coming of Christ which supposedly happened in 1914. Many firmly believe this heretical teaching as well, but again it is not what the bible consistently and plainly teaches nor is it the orthodox understanding of Christian teaching prior to the 1800s.

[@JesseMgala]

I knew it before even watching this video, that it's Matt 24:29-31. *This is not the rapture spoken of in 1Thess 4:16-17 though. Rather it's the gathering of His elect among the Jews after the tribulation. He mentioned mid-trib, pre-wrath which is 3/4ish into the tribulation and post-trib. These three cannot be true timing at the same time. So why singling out pre-trib?

[@juliewirch2992]

Us pretribbers do have an answer to this and you know what it is. It's that Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming. What I'd love to hear you address is why we're told that we're not appointed to suffer God's wrath if we're saved? Every believer has tribulation in this life. I've had a severe chronic pain disorder for thirty years that has made me bedridden for the past decade, but there's a difference between going through tribulation and going through THE tribulation which is the wrath of God on an unbelieving world.

[@carriebasso5075]

This preacher is obviously faith and works Gospel? Salvation is not works!Trying to earn there salvation by enduring to the end to be saved! and doing the commandments to be save or stay saved! That's how they try to prove no pre-trib! Galatians 2:15-21 [15]We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, [16]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. [17]But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. [18]For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. [19]For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. [20]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[@juliewirch2992]

@@carriebasso5075 Amen

[@kyairamarbury]

Post trib agrees we aren’t appointed to wrath. The difference is when we believe the wrath starts. Pre-trib thinks wrath is the full 7 years. Post trib thinks it’s just the very end of the 7 years on the day of the Lord.

[@cryptojihadi265]

God's wrath are the 7 bowls which are the 7th and last Trumpet. Right when Paul tells us the rapture will be. Confirmed with being after the resurrection which is spelled out in Rev 20:4-5 to include those who died for not worshipping the beast or taking his mark. THAT is called the FIST resurrection. So no rapture can possibly take place before THAT one. Ergo, Ota impossible for the rapture to occur before the tr8bulation or the beast is revealed and the saints are beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

[@juliewirch2992]

@@cryptojihadi265 Interesting. I always appreciate hearing people's post trib arguments so that I can understand why you believe what you do. Thanks.

[@nambourwesleyan]

This is so good, thank you.

[@twosunaz1]

If you read 2 Thessalonians 2 1-12 you can say for sure Jesus will not return pre-trib. God's word says Do not be decieved. He is not coming back until after the falling away, the antichrist is revealed and calls himself god. We all just need to be ready to meet our Saviour at any time. Our lives can end today! What will the timing of Jesus return matter in the scope of eternity.

[@mikenunya4491]

Pre-tribbers just can't seem to read that passage in the plain language.

[@awake780]

@@mikenunya4491so true

[@michael65pesl75]

The argument that those who hold to a pre-tribulation position will “fold” if they were mistaken about their belief is incorrect. Only those who are not truly born of the Spirit will “fold.” Otherwise the Spirit of Christ will continue to provide peace even when experiencing tribulation. John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[@aeroflyte]

Revelation 3:10 New International Version 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

[@robertlawson4295]

Yes, but the method is described in Psalm 91. Noah was not removed from the Earth during the Flood but he was most certainly divinely protected. God has a very good aim, He can pour out the fury of His wrath on someone standing right next to you without harming a single hair on your head as the Scripture itself states. You will see the punishment of the wicked only with your eyes but it will not come near you. How great a promise of deliverance!

[@jamescole3152]

So you believe when Christians are being killed that that is a trial that comes upon the whole world? It does not. Just one example for you. Rev 17 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement. The wrath of God follows the rapture. The church is on the earth during the wrath of Satan.

[@aeroflyte]

@@jamescole3152 Tribulation Saints and martyrs. People will come to Christ after the removal of His Bride.

[@dannywilliamson3340]

That's right. And the glorified church is seen in Chapter 4 seated on thrones, wearing white robes, with crowns on their heads. Who are these 24 Elders? They tell us in Chapter 5 verses 9 and 10. "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." No one but the church can sing of being redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. And only after the church is taken home does the Lamb take the 7-seal scroll and begin to break the seals.

[@okteri]

The church is never mentioned again after Revelation 4. Why? Because it has been removed.

[@jellybean9123]

What does not make sense to me is how does one go from being saved by the redemption in Christ to 7 year tribulation where the mark of the beast happens. Where no one will be able to sale or buy without the mark. I might be asking an ignorant question. I dont understand endtimes like i would like so my my trust stand alone in Christ through the good and bad. May His Kingdom come may His will be done! Both side have very good takes in the end I think the most important thing is trusting God and staying focused in Christ.

[@veronicastuart714]

I agree The most important thing is Trusting God and staying focused In Christ.

[@veronicastuart714]

Psalm 27 blessings to you. I understand it is difficult to understand all the events yet to be.. One thing I do Know is that no matter what happens in this world .. . Though we die we shall live...For the dead In Christ shall Rise First

[@jellybean9123]

@@veronicastuart714 do the dead rise first in front of us like we will see this with our own eyes or will they rise and only Christ will see it.

[@veronicastuart714]

@jellybean9123 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. / After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

[@veronicastuart714]

@jellybean9123 this event takes place very quickly. Not sure if we "see" but we will definitely "Hear" a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,

[@STEVEinNC]

These verses prove that The Rapture and Judgement Day will happen on the Last Day , and therefore the pre-tribulation Rapture teaching is false. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7] and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels [8] in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. [9] They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, [10] when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

[@paulbrennan4163]

Not they do NOT prove that the rapture and the Day of the Lord happen on the last day. All Paul is referring to in that passage is when the church returns with Jesus to take revenge on our enemies. If you think the rapture takes place on the same day as the Day of the Lord then all you need to do is search for the term "Day of the Lord" in scripture and show me where _any_ of them describes a rapture. What you will find instead is that _every single reference to it,_ without a single exception, is utterly negative. If both of these events take place on the same day then wouldn't the Day of the Lord have to also be referred to as the "blessed hope" that all Christianity is looking forward to? Shouldn't we be longing for it? If this is when the rapture occurs then at the very least one would expect to see some hint of positivity about it. But take a look at this: *"Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!* Why do you long for the day of the Lord? *That day will be darkness, not light."* (Amos 5:18) Two verses later he expands on this: "Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, *not light - pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?"* (Amos 5:20) It's a bit funny how he goes to such length to point out that there is absolutely _nothing_ positive about that day. I don't know about you but it sure doesn't sound like the rapture to me.

[@STEVEinNC]

@@paulbrennan4163 The verses state He's coming on the last day to judge the wicked which will be an infinitely awful day for them, and also TO BE glorified in and marveled at by all who have believed. TO BE is future it's not past or present. The Glorious Rapture is Future and will occur on the Last Day. Only a minority of Christians worldwide believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, a theory which only started in the 1800s. Pre-tribulation believers may be helped by watching the history of the pre-trib rapture - kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpDGh4uap52gjNUsi=dNK49YI4KaFF45xm

[@danielpulford4928]

Irenaeus (130 A.D. - 202 AD) Irenaeus also believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp. Polycarp learned his Christian faith from the apostle John, “…the disciple whom Jesus loved…” (John 21:7) As well as writing the gospel that bears his name and a number of early letters, John wrote the Book of Revelation. There could be no better tutor other than the Lord Jesus himself. Both Polycarp and Irenaeus knew John personally. Irenaeus later became bishop of the church in Lyons, France and is famous for his five volume treatise, Against Heresies, which described and challenged all false teaching from the emerging cults of his day. Irenaeus believed in the three and a half year reign of the Antichrist as ruler of the world before the Second Coming of Christ. He also believed in a literal millennial reign of Christ on earth following the Second Coming and in the resurrection of the just. Irenaeus also believed in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. In Against Heresies 5:29 he wrote: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption. Note Irenaeus’ use of the, “caught up.” It is the exact same Rapture terminology used in 1 Thessalonians 4. The word used is 1 Thessalonians 4, is “harpazo”, meaning to be “caught up.” Irenaeus believed that the Rapture of the Church occurred prior to the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

[@JesusChrist-theSonofGod-isLord]

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Paul says "Behold, I show you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" which is the same thing he reiterated in 1 Thessalonians 4:15‭-‬17: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. That's why olivet discourse of Jesus is different than that of MYSTERY of the rapture which was revealed to Paul. This video has strengthened my position of a pretrib rapture and I humbly ask the post tribbers to prayerfully with an open heart look into the scriptures about pretrib rapture instead of listening to any man. Maranatha ❤🙏🏼

[@claudiagujbavarga4719]

Mat24:31 and 1Cor15:52 and 1Tes4:16, are pointing to eachother în the subtexts. All 3 talk about the 2ndComing afterTrib.

[@benny-yj7pq]

The NT Saints are resurrected first at His parousia, which is His 2.coming and not a secret coming. Do you have a coming of the Lord and a Resurrection of the NT Saints before the Tribulation? I cannot find one scripture in the bible, because Yeshua says He comes after the Tribulation and the Bible does not contradict itself. Your Pre-trib is not scriptural.

[@JazFP_Jona]

Please re-read again the chapter(s) in Thessalonians. Paul was clear with what he said of when the Second Coming of the Lord would come. He had already cleared out the confusions when the believers were divided of when's the Lord's return. It's tied up to what the Lord Himself said in Matthew 24.

[@toddrosvold9233]

Get to know your Bible, not the teaching of John Nelson Darby. The scripture you provided says "and the dead in Christ shall rise first". And in Revelation 20, which occurs after the Great Tribulation, scripture clearly defines when the "first" resurrection is to occur, which is just prior to the millennial kingdom. Not all saints are included here, only those sealed and beheaded for standing in the truth of God's Word. After the millennial kingdom, all will be resurrected in the last day, both the goats and the sheep.

[@OrleansDave]

What's the point of this? Why argue about something like this. It doesn't matter what all 3 believe, pre, mid, or post. The good news is that our lord is coming. We shouldn't argue or worry about such things. I can see all points but one thing is for sure, it's stated in revelation, the faithful will be protected, so whether you're taken up or placed somewhere on earth during the revelation, it doesn't matter. If you think you have to experience the whole tribulation including God's wrath, well, that's fine too, if that's what you believe. Let's just pray for one another and look for the coming of the day of our lord.

[@PoorBoys3_]

Why is the church not mentioned after REV 4. I believe in the pretrib theology. Paul affirmed in Thess 1:10 and 5:9 that the church is to escape Gods wrath. John seems to place the Rapture in Rev 4:1

[@handles617]

The "church" is not mentioned because he only mentioned the word church beforehand to send literal letters to 7 literal churches..John only uses the word because he's ACTUALLY TALKING TO LOCAL CHURCHES HERE. Paul calls believers saints multiple times, as the phrases are used in revelation. As for 1 thess 1 10 and 1 thess 5 9, we agree we do not experience the wrath of God. You should actually take time to research your opposing view before arguing against it. Even ignoring the above point, 1 thess 5 9 isn't about the rapture, the wrath is eternal in that verse. Hence, the opposite of salvation(eternal life) is (eternal) wrath. If the opposite of eternal life was being in "the tribulations wrath" then nobody would be able to be saved that is in it.

[@handles617]

Also, for revelation 4; 1, he's literally seeing a vision this whole time. He's not actually in heaven when he sees this. Even ignoring this, claiming it "proves a rapture" is just using origens allegory, which pre trib claims to oppose because "they only interpret literally"

[@aradragoon1]

@@handles617 I won't put in the effort to write a long winded response. Suffice it to say that ALL scripture is God breathed. John says he was commanded "come up here, " meaning he was commanded to come up and see the throne. Where is the throne? Heaven. With that Rev. 22:19 is very clear "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." Saying this is just a vision IS taking away from this book. Period. As for rapture. The Greek word is "Harpazo" which means to be snatched up/away (out of danger) as a friend or companion. This was translated to "Rapturo" in the Latin Vulgate which then became widely known as "the rapture" due to the length of time that Latin was used for the bible. So whether you like it or not rapture is biblical.

[@vhopvecasadeoracion4461]

Why God is no mentioned in the book of Esther?

[@mikenunya4491]

The tribulation is not God's wrath, plain and simple. The Bible tells you as much.

[@joanbenjamin6345]

I completely agree, but refuse to argue which wastes time; discussion does, however, have some value in that"pre-tribbers" may feel they've been deceived if/ when the final 7 years obviously begin and were still here.

[@SoniaAzam7]

The word of God is consistent with types and shadows. There’s a repetition, a historical context that we can trust. Anything outside of the ordinary or pattern in light of scripture, (pre tribulation) is suspicious and dare I say, heresy.

[@JazFP_Jona]

I believed in pre-trib and then later on became fine with either Pre-trib or Post-trib , but then, I realized that's not right. It sounds like I didn't care. People are arguing over this, and there must be ONE truth behind all of these. It's okay to listen to your pastors but it's much better to confirm the fact by reading the bible in context. Thank God that the bible told me the truth. Pre-trib is a lie. Our Lord Jesus confirmed when He would come, John, Daniel, Peter, and Paul were one with His statement. So, I was freed by these confusions. Glory be to God!

[@chadwickdoyle2293]

I’ve been taught pre trib and believed it for many years. For the most part still do just not completely sold on it. I think the biggest struggle is pre, mid, pre wrath and post all have in common?? They all have scripture to support their view and claim everyone else is misinterpreting scripture. However, post is looking to be more accurate. If someone could answer these two questions it would be most helpful. The Bible say people will be buying, selling, eating drinking and getting married right before his return. If the world has just been beaten relentlessly by Gods wrath, how will life be that normal? And, once Jesus returns he’s separating the sheep from the goats destroying sin and those who took the mark of the beast. If everyone is raptured at the end, who is going into the millennial reign?

[@handles617]

The first question is answered by not taking it hyper literally. Jesus is using parables to make it simple to get his point across. We aren't literally going to all be in mills or fields with 50% gone to jesus as the 2 other parables state. It's simply saying that the unbelievers will go on about their lives unrepentant in their ways. Remember that pre trib states that 2 thess 2 says the gathering or "rapture" occurs BEFORE the day of the lord. Yet jesus in the Noahs ark parable, just like all the other parables, states that its the same day "until the day noah entered the ark" yet pre trib was just busy claiming the rapture is a different day from his punishment and 2nd coming. Only post or pre wrath can explain this consistently. Then there's the fact that Jesus NEVER mentions anybody being saved. They're all destroyed. Matthew 24 should be properly read chronologically, so the parables at the end are all 2nd coming. "The coming of the son of man(remember verses 29-31) will be like the days of noah" "soon too will it be at the coming of the son of man"

[@jaredvikse2096]

You'll definitely want to watch a lot more of FAI videos. They go in to great detail with all your questions.

[@JoelRichardson]

HI Chadwick, To your first question: It is very common, when the Bible speaks of the last days to summarizes it all using various terms. So when Jesus says that folks will essentially be going about their lives when the Son of Man comes, He is not likely speaking exclusively about His glorious coming, but about the entirety of the events that surround His coming, including the tribulation. The Sheep and Goat judgment is not a judgment of individuals, but nations. The Scriptures speak of many "survivors" from the nations going into the Millennium. Zechariah 14 is an excellent example. Forgive my brevity. I hope this helps. Blessings, Joel

[@shiner_man]

Here's my answer to the 1st question. Jesus is teaching that, before his return, the world will be going on with their ordinary business, completely oblivious to impending divine judgment. The pretrib interpretation, however, makes no sense and is contradicted by the fact that pretribs at the same time, believe the unprecedented wrath of God through the trumpet and bowl judgments occur before the battle of Armageddon. In other words, how can the world be going on with their ordinary business completely oblivious during the trumpet and bowl judgments? How would Jesus’s return at the judgment of Armageddon catch the ungodly off guard as a “thief.” It makes no sense. Rather, what Jesus is depicting through his illustrations is that the separation pictured at Matthew 24:31 occurs-not in the context of Armageddon-but instead at the rapture which will take place just before the day of the Lord’s wrath begins followed by the trumpet and bowl judgments. When Armageddon does finally arrive, the world by that time will have already been beleaguered from God’s wrath. In fact, the armies of the world will be going after Jesus himself who will be king in Jerusalem. This is a far cry from the world being oblivious to Jesus’s coming for them as a thief after God’s trumpet and bowl judgments have transpired! I believe the following is a much better interpretation of Jesus’s illustrations. During the Antichrist’s great tribulation, the world will be saying “peace and safety,” completely oblivious of God’s impending judgment. Those days of great tribulation will be cut short at some unknown day and hour when Jesus returns in the clouds and raptures his people. On that same day (rapture), the trumpet and bowl judgments begin and are ultimately culminated by Armageddon. Here is my answer to the 2nd question. The Bible teaches that after the return of Christ, He will set up an earthly kingdom of 1000 years in duration. The constituents of this earthly kingdom will include both saved and glorified individuals as well as saved and non-glorified individuals. The saved and glorified individuals will consist of all the saved of all the ages from Adam to the last beheaded martyr. The saved and non-glorified group will consist of a remnant of Israel (who is saved at the conclusion of the 70th Week of Daniel) and some Gentile believers who survive to the Day of the Lord. Following the battle of Armageddon, Christ will sit in judgment of those remaining alive on the earth in what has been called the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matt. 25:31-46). Those Gentile believers, who evidenced their faith by how they treated the Jews during the Great Tribulation, will enter the Millennial kingdom along with the saved Jewish remnant. There are many Scriptures which give us insight into the conditions on earth during the Millennial reign of Christ. These include Isaiah 35, 60-62, 65; Ezek. 40-48; Micah 4; and Rev. 20-22. From these passages we understand that the Millennial kingdom will be an earthly kingdom, with Christ ruling from the New Jerusalem which will descend from heaven and reside above Mt. Zion. Christ will rule in righteousness over the inhabitants of earth. During this time the earth will have been restored to conditions similar to before the Fall of Adam: wild animals will be tame, there will be no war, trees will give abundant fruit, sin will be punished. Ezekiel 47 points out the fact that fishermen will fish in the waters of the rivers and will catch “very many” fish. So the activities of life continue in a normal fashion, only with a righteous government, peace and perfect conditions. The saved but non-glorified group of individuals will enter the Millennial kingdom in natural, human bodies They will grow, mature, marry, procreate, age, and die (Isa. 65:20-25). Revelation 22 and Ezekiel 47 tell us that the leaves of the trees that grow along the river of life are for the healing of the nations. Isaiah 65 tells us that people on earth at that time will live long lives, and if someone dies at 100 he will be considered accursed. Evidently, similar to those days prior to the flood, people will live hundreds of years. During these 1000 years, Israel will be the chief nation of the world and will be restored to the full dimensions of her land which God promised. Mt. Zion will be raised up as the chief mountain in the world and it is from here that Christ will reign from the New Jerusalem (Ps. 68:16; 132:13-14; Micah 4:1-8). King David will be resurrected and will be the chief prince over the nation of Israel (Jer. 30:9; Ezek. 37:24-25). All other nations will honor Israel and will worship God in Jerusalem. Zechariah 14 tells us that those nations who do not come up to Jerusalem every year to worship God will be punished with no rain. While all the saved, but non-glorified individuals who initially enter the Millennial kingdom will be believers, we understand that during the millennium there will be many people born. Some of these will choose to not follow the leadership of Christ and will be rebellious in their hearts. Those born during this time are born with the same sin nature that humans now are cursed with. Thus, when Satan is released at the conclusion of the 1000 years, he is able to amass a great army to come against the “beloved City”, Jerusalem (Rev. 20:7-10). Sorry for the long reply, but there were no short answers to your questions. I hope this is helpful.

[@chadwickdoyle2293]

@@shiner_man no apologies needed. Thank you for the response!

[@SaintMT]

Another matching phrase that's not apparent in this graph is Jesus coming on the clouds of the SKY (Matt. 24) and the Lord descending from HEAVEN (1 Thess. 4). In the original Greek of these verses those two words are translated from the same Greek word. I believe the KJV uses "heaven" for both.

[@seanc2788]

That's correct. The dimension of heaven is just above the earths inner atmosphere. When Jesus opens the portal between the two dimensions and calls us home to be with him, we pass by this earth's heaven and into the real one. That is why Jesus doesn't come "half way back" to the planet. He just calls us from the air, but the dimension of heaven is just outside of our visible sight. Once he opens it, we will know.

[@LastDaysDetective]

Yes, it's so clear! Your excellent presentation reminds me of a video I made 12 years ago about the same thing: kzbin.info/www/bejne/boCrfJRogLyUgbc

[@ghostownaproach]

Matthew cannot be used to establish a timing of end times events because Matthew is presenting Jesus as King of kings and therefore lumped Jesus' sayings together by subject without regard to the time or context in which he said each statement. All post tribbers make this same error.

[@mikenunya4491]

Except that Matthew 24 is a chronological description of events given by Jesus in response to a specific question. "when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?" Jesus then gives all the various societal signs, including persecution of those called by His name, as well as the final signs in the heavens, and then He returns in power and great glory. Just read Matthew 24 as though it is directed toward you, a last days believer in Messiah, without any church tradition of saying its just for Jews, and you will understand it greatly!

[@ghostownaproach]

@@mikenunya4491 prove to yourself by comparing in Matthew where Jesus says Matthew 24:28 KJV For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. (verse 28 is way before verse 40-41 right? Yet this verse is an answer to a question that is brought about because of a statement that hasn't been made yet and won't be made until verse 40 so these statements are not recorded in the order that they were spoken in Matthew but they are in Luke.) And now Luke's quoting that same saying Luke 17:36-37 KJV Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. You see the disciples asked Jesus where the ones taken were taken to and his answer is to the battle of Armageddon where birds will feed on dead battle-fallen carcasses. But when you go back to Matthew again you'll notice that Jesus gives the answer to their question before he even says the one taken and the other left statement and in fact it comes many verses later after he has already given the answer to the question of Where Lord are they taken? Matthew 24:40-41 KJV Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke gives us the account IN ORDER while Matthew just records the things Jesus said but not why he said them or in what order. Luke 1:3 KJV It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

[@church7180]

Sir, your comment makes no sense when taking the whole of Matthew’s Gospel into account.

[@ghostownaproach]

@@church7180 every post trib argument includes as proof how Matthew says "Immediately after the tribulation..." But because Matthew recorded sayings of Jesus by subject this only proves that after the tribulation certain things will happen. It doesn't prove that there is no rapture before the tribulation.

[@mikenunya4491]

@@church7180 The Great Commission is in Matthew. Is that just for the Jews also?

[@rachelcastro16]

I absolutely love all your teachings, if I may please ask that maybe do the announcements either before or after the teaching, the interruption mid study is so distracting.

[@mikes5079]

If no pre-trib rapture.... *Who are the 24 Elders wearing crowns in Revelation 4 who are seated BEFORE the Lamb opens the seals on the scroll?*

[@veronicastuart714]

A very interesting question. Searching out all these mysteries. Searching out the Scriptures and praying for the Holy Spirit to help us to understand.

[@veronicastuart714]

The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open.-Matthew 27:51-52 The moment Christ died, the graves opened. The opening of the graves, however, was like the first budding of the coming resurrection glory. .. (Partial fulfilment of The resurrection?? Is it possible the saints of "old" Elders were resurrected?? Just asking a sincere question.

[@mikes5079]

@@veronicastuart714 I think that's one of the best answer we can give. Also, I think the 24 elders are likely a reflection of the 24 divisions of Levitical priests instituted by David in 1st Chronicles 23 &24. Notice that the 24 elders sing a song in Revelation 5 (KJV/NKJV), "you have redeemed _us_ " So, we know they can't be angels.

[@troyleekimble7557]

I BELIEVE IN POST TRIBULATION RAPTURE

[@AidenRKrone]

In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus is talking specifically about the Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 14:15-17, Paul elaborated more on Jesus's words by talking about both the Rapture _and_ the First Resurrection. The thing that both of them have in common is that they're both referencing the Second Coming! The Rapture, the First Resurrection, and the Second Coming all take place simultaneously. The Rapture effects living believers, the First Resurrection effects dead believers, and the Second Coming effects _all_ believers! All believers, living and dead, will be caught up in the clouds with the descending Son of God and all of them will receive their glorified bodies at the same time. To divide these three _concurrent_ events into three _separate_ events is to mangle Jesus's and Paul's words.

[@claudiagujbavarga4719]

Mat24 ..from vers29 to 44, theLord is describing His2ndComing...but people, amazingly and with no logic take verses like "no one knows the day or the hour" .." one will be taken and the other left" ..."the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" ....they take these verses from within His2ndComing and construct a fantasy7yPriorComing. It's like saying: ..NewYear's day is different from the 1st ofJanuary and it is coming befor Christmas*)) LordJesus helpUsAll.

[@bawbjusbawb6471]

Brothers and Sisters, I would like to share this with you... Concerning the "Thief in the Night"... Much of "Christianity" is in darkness concerning the Feasts of YeHoVaH... They degradate them as "Jewish" Feasts and have replaced them with festivals of men... But those who know the Feasts of YeHoVaH will tell you that "Not knowing the Day or the Hour" is a Hebrew Idiom... The Feasts of YeHoVaH are the ones in the Bible that Yeshua and ALL the Apostles celebrated even AFTER the Ascension of Yeshua... The Day of Trumpets is the ONLY Feast determined by the "New Moon"... Only the Father knows when the "New Moon" will appear in the sky... Therefore, no one knows the "Day or the Hour" when this Feast is to begin... The Apostle Paul was speaking to his "Brothers" who were also knowledgeable about the Feasts of YeHoVaH when he stated this: 1 Thessalonians 5:1through 4 - 1Now about the times and seasons, brothers, WE DON OT NEED TO WRITE TO YOU. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 👉4BUT YOU BROTHERS, ARE NOT IN DARKNESS SO THAT THIS DAY SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU LIKE A THIEF. 👈 Yeshua the Messiah fulfilled ALL of the Spring Feasts on His first coming... He will fulfill ALL of the Fall Feasts on His return... We will know the season when the "Abomination of Desolation" is set up... Please read through the Book of Revelation for referencing of TRUMPETS being blown upon the return of Yeshua... Just some food for thought...

[@petier.6149]

The "last trumpet" in 1.Kor15 is referring to Rosh HaShanah aka Yom HaKeseh too.

[@recycledminis]

I have friends that are multi-rapture believers, with pre, mid, and post or late raptures.

[@church7180]

Another nail in the decaying Pretrib coffin!

[@Dave_Williamson]

See my statement above.

[@JackPeters-yk9wg]

Speaking truth

[@paulbrennan4163]

Speaking lies. I have addressed Matthew 24:31 countless times!

[@JackPeters-yk9wg]

You have humored yourself by falsely interpreting scripture....Mathew 24 is abundantly clear...A pre trib view is based on extrapolation and conjecture....You didnt read the Bible and find a pre trib rapture...You were taught it, by others who were taught it....... ​@@paulbrennan4163

[@JackPeters-yk9wg]

@@paulbrennan4163 coward

[@JackPeters-yk9wg]

@@paulbrennan4163 when one "falsely" address something, (even countless times) it doesn't necessarily gird one's argument...Often, it merely exposes one's ignorance on the matter...

[@paulbrennan4163]

@@JackPeters-yk9wg I was taught by others? What do you know about me? Jack, don't be a hypocrite, do not judge others unjustifiably, and do not bear false testimony. Unlike you I do my OWN studies. I am non-denominational, I have never read any christian books on eschatology, I have never gone to any bible schools. And I don't sit and listen to what others have to say UNLESS I take the time to listen carefully to what the both sides have to say on the issue at hand. I have no affiliations to defend or loyalties to betray. My ONLY interest is in defending the truth of scripture. Can you say the same? Tell you what wise guy.. If you think I just copy other peoples arguments the way you do then show me from where I copied them, and most importantly refute it with scripture.. not with shallow comments like "the bible is abudantly clear" kind of arguments. To start with, what you should have noticed, if you weren't so busy reading your theology into scripture, is that those who cleverly try to make Matthew 24:31 sound like the rapture only point out the similarities involved and fail to say anything about the differences. The precursors to the gathering in Matthew 24 is something that Paul makes no mention of. The term "from the four winds" is an idiom used in scripture to describe the four compass directions and has nothing to do with meeting anyone in the air. And, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 THE LORD HIMSELF will come down from heaven. In Matthew all we see is that he is sending angels. But what I find worse than that is that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever in the context of the time it was written and the audience Jesus was addressing! Jesus by his own confession was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel. He even talks to them about exclusively Jewish issues such as fleeing to the mountains in Judea, the problems of doing so during the Sabbath, being flogged in synagogues, and so on. So why would he suddenly confuse them by speaking about a predominately gentile church being raptured? The church did not exist at the time, and the rapture was a mystery scheduled to be revealed decades later by Paul. It wouldn't make any sense to them! What would have made PERFECT sense to them was the fact that Jesus was speaking about a matter that they would have immediately recognized. For unlike people who are actively sifting through the text looking for a rapture account to support their view, these people were waiting for something that was promised in the Bible of THEIR TIME - the regathering of the lost tribes of ISRAEL! It would obviously involve exactly the kind of things that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:31 - a gathering, a loud trumpet blast, and the use of idioms in the old testament used to describe gathering, such as "the four winds", "four quarters", and the "four corners of the earth". While these idioms are not used anywhere to describe the rapture, there were used to describe what happens when people are attacked and exiled from their countries and also when regathering them. We see it used as an idiom to describe *SCATTERING* in four directions: "I will bring against Elam the *four winds* from the *four quarters of heaven;* I will *scatter them to the four winds* .." (Jeremiah 49:36) And "Come! Come! Flee from the land of the north," declares the Lord, "for I have *scattered you to the four winds of heaven,"* declares the Lord." (Zechariah 2:6) And then we see it used to describe *GATHERING* from four directions: "Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children *from the east.* and gather you *from the west.* I will say *to the north,* ‘Give them up!’ and *to the south,* ‘Do not hold them back.’" (Isaiah 43:5-6) And "He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will *assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth."* (Isaiah 11:12) What we see when we study these OT prophecies is that the dispersion of the tribes of Israel would only be for a limited period of time, and that once that period of time has expired they would all be brought back to their country. Since only the southern kingdom (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) have returned, we know that this prophecy has only partially been fulfilled. The rest of this prophecy must therefore take place in the end times. If not then God would be a liar. Notice now that the tribes that were to be brought back from the Babylonian exile were never told to listen for the sound of any trumpet. In the case of the 10 remaining tribes returning from the Assyrian exile however, their gathering WILL be summoned by the sound of a "great trumpet": "And *in that day a great trumpet will sound.* Those who were perishing in Assyria and *those who were exiled in Egypt will come and worship the Lord on the holy mountain in Jerusalem."* (Isaiah 27:13) But there is even more to this than that! Notice how the events that Jesus lists in Matthew 24:29-31 line up closely with what we see in Revelation 6:12-7:1-8, and that they follow the exact the same sequence: *MATTHEW:* The sun and moon turn dark (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The sun turns black … the moon turns blood red" (Revelation 6:12) *MATTHEW:* The stars fall from the sky (Matthew 24:29) *REVELATION:* The stars in the sky fell to earth (Revelation 6:13) *MATTHEW:* All the tribes of the earth grieve (Matthew 24:30) *REVELATION:* "They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?" (Revelation 6:13) So when we see these how these events line up perfectly with each other, shouldn't we expect to see the next event also line up? This is _exactly_ what we see: *MATTHEW:* "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:31) *REVELATION:* "After this I saw four angels standing at the *four corners of the earth,* holding back the *four winds of the earth* to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from *ALL the tribes of Israel."* (Revelation 7:1-4) What Jesus was referring to is not the rapture, but the regathering of the lost tribes of Israel.

[@tipsy09]

there are true Christians who's names are written in the book of life who will escape the tribulation...it's called dying how do you explain surviving the tribulation for 7 years? the elect in the first passage are the elect out of the tribulation, the 144000?

[@gaylechristensen6285]

What the two viewpoints have in common; they both say that it's perfectly clear. Obviousky it's not, or there wouldn't be two different viewpoints.

[@jarrettjb]

Exactly! 😂 I have friends in both camps and they both love and fear God and get people saved. As Christians, I think we should focus on the more important stuff like building his kingdom within our callings and getting people saved.

[@gaylechristensen6285]

@@jarrettjb Amen💖

[@RandyRoth-mo3lz]

Jesus, Peter and Paul all warns us about the deception surrounding His return... Matt 24:4, 2 Peter 3:10-18, 2 Thess 2:1-3. The difference between the resurrection of the dead and the unbiblical term rapture and the concept that it presents, is that Scripture is clear about the resurrection of the dead. No Scripture offers a rapture prior to tribulation... rather that is an ideal of man, and then Scripture is searched to "allude to", "suggest", etc. that the idea of man has a foundation. The view cannot even be presented without conjured terms like "rapture", "second coming", "tribulation saints", "age of grace", "church age"", etc... without these terms, they cannot even offer their view. Every argument for a rapture is birthed out of deceit.

[@chava2uk150]

​@jarrettjb surely, Jesus's words carry more authority whatever you think Paul is saying. That should be clear

[@onejohn2.26]

that's because most Christians are totally deceived. Satan has used the churchto convince Christians they don't even have to keep the Commandments of God and somehow they will be saved.

[@glenpersinger3390]

I love you 😍 💗 yes finally!😮

[@MorrisonJames]

Hey Joel, you are free to call me foolish again brother. But I stand firm that pre tribulation rapture believers are following a different ’jesus; and another gospel. We were commanded to preach the Gospel in truth in its complete entirety. This means the Gospel of the coming kingdom. When a sinner comes into true salvation through Christ - they receive Gods Holy Spirit yes? Then Joel how can a pre tribulation rapture believer be corrected and edified by the same ‘Holy Spirit” as a pre wrath believer? The fact is Joel is that the pre tribulation rapture ‘Jesus’ is the antichrist. The entire purpose of the pre tribulation rapture deception when it was delivered by Satan IS to deceive the elect. Thus, they will turn from God, turn away from the faith and take the mark of the beast. As for them being brothers and sisters? Pray for them. They are lost in the deception. Yeshua Jesus Christ did not proclaim 2 gospels 2 groups of saved 2 separate second returns.

[@michellebehr7669]

The disciples believed Jesus was going to restore Israel and couldn't absorb what He said when He told them He would be put to death. It was so far from their minds to the point Peter told Jesus NOT SO Lord! There are believers in the pre-trib group that will be able to stand when the time comes.

[@hcgdesmoines]

Rev 16:15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” This verse is at Bowl 7 wrath. I think it's pretty clear. True believers are not appointed to God's wrath but it doesn't say anywhere that we won't be here. I'm believing more and more we will be here to be a witness and will be protected during God's wrath.

[@seanc2788]

The rapture has nothing to do with your salvation. Start there.

[@danielpulford4928]

There is a reason why Joel will not debate Lee Brainard re., the rapture.