NT Wright explains what really happened to St Paul on the road to Damascus

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Justin Brierley is joined by leading New Testament scholar NT (Tom) Wright and popular historical writer Tom Holland to discuss how Paul the apostle changed the world as described in Wright’s recent book Paul: A Biography.
In this excerpt NT Wright gives his view on what Paul was meditating on the moment of his encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus and why it changed the apostle’s life.
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[@nosuchthing8]

Two words. Lightning strike.

[@Stupidityindex]

Reasoning with the religious is not necessary, as they mock themselves with their academic titles. It still is an amazing demonstration of a complete lack of reasoning. How long has it been since you watched The Life of Brian? Ludicrous range of human potential. Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. Bullwinkle offers to pull a rabbit out of a hat & then pulls a scary lion. These are the religious, the wolves in sheep's clothing. Even Jesus says faith is worthless or you could order mountains to move about. 47 Churches in an American small town, covered parking for the unreasonable. The scam works with faith & prayers, suggesting we all should travel with one foot in their fantasyland. Nothing fails like prayers in a children's hospital. Who sends their children to prophet trade-school? If there were a god, then would there be any demand for scripture interpretations by various podium-jockeys using fantasyland vocabulary? We really should address the social acceptance of large numbers of people speaking a fantasyland vocabulary & openly indulging in the deceit of religious belief as a tool of fascism. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing, we know them by their works: A wicked generation seeking signs when Jesus The Nailed says faith is worthless if you can't move mountains by issuing verbal orders to one. Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. The Christians slapped their books on the Old Testament, & the Mormons glued theirs on to them both, thus proving Christians lack quality-control. Look at the verbose podium jockey speaking of faith & prayer as if we all should have a preference for travel with one foot in fantasyland. Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital, & there is talk as if God does not have a perfect record of doing nothing, as if we had no reason for the saying: God helps those helping themselves. A house divided cannot stand. We vote because Christians have no quality-controls, & we desire those governing not making suggestions travel is best done with one foot in someone's fantasyland. 'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.'' It was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch-killings. One might expect a deity to make itself known to everyone without work performed in interpretations of old literature by guys like our verbose podium jockey. Theologians acquire grand titles without certification from a deity, & project certainty using fantasyland vocabulary in an academic setting to compensate for lack of reason. How long has it been since you watched The Life of Brian? Ludicrous range of human potential. Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. Bullwinkle offers to pull a rabbit out of a hat & then pulls a scary lion. These are the religious, the wolves in sheep's clothing. Even Jesus says faith is worthless or you could order mountains to move about. 47 Churches in an American small town, covered parking for the unreasonable. The scam works with faith & prayers, suggesting we all should travel with one foot in their fantasyland. Nothing fails like prayers in a children's hospital. Who sends their children to prophet trade-school?

[@AJTramberg]

NT Wrights recipe for boiling water would fill a 500 page book.

[@Albertanator]

There is some truth to what you say....I have just finished a few of his books....he certainly is detailed....

[@new_comment]

I love it, the more detail and explanation, the better, when it comes to God's Word, just more info to absorb

[@imhypothetic4713]

🤣🤣🤣

[@godschild483]

😂

[@KnightFel]

@@new_comment and also the more it complicates it. Does anyone even know what NT believes? I can never tell.

[@Luachair]

Terrific stuff! Go!

[@brett3722]

Completely disagree. This places Pauls works as the cause of his regeneration. It places Paul’s ability as the desire source. Paul does not state this in any of his later passages, especially not Romans 1-9 or Ephesians 2. Regeneration proceeds faith. The Apostle John states this clearly in almost every passage in the Gospel of John, especially John 3 and 6. NT Wright is not correct here and clearly, he even states, this is speculation. The huge problem is this speculation creates a trajectory of thought leading to other misunderstandings.

[@busterbiloxi3833]

Your reply is nonsense. What are you going on about?

[@brett3722]

@@busterbiloxi3833 I am not required to do homework for you. If you do not understand my post you have homework to do.

[@thepsalms2806]

Beautiful

[@loganross1861]

Do you think these guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be?

[@JoshuaHults]

Yes lol

[@deniscuschieri6739]

Logan Ross h

[@nicklaushart9063]

That’s Wright’s M.O.

[@Charles-Pettibone]

Read Ezekiel and Leviticus. Do you understand what they are saying? I am guessing that it is probably very confusing to you. If that's the case, then you're not in a position to confidently assert that people are making things over-complicated. Your current understanding is unable to make heads or tails of huge portions of Scripture. Instead of others making things too complicated, it's probably the case that you have something to learn.

[@aelbereth6690]

Not really. It's interesting and informative to have the background to this well-known story.

[@christianlaraque2234]

Paul never mentioned anything in his letters about the demascus road experience. This is written by acts. Second century is now starting to be the scholarly consensus. It seems based on the conversion of heliodorus. And the 1st samual passage where king SAUL is after David “Saul Saul why do you pursue me??”

[@protochris]

What Paul beheld was not a vision, he had seen something with this natural eyes. The Greek word for vision is "orama" which does not imply a vision of sight; Luke uses the word "Optasia" meaning Paul saw something without meditation.

[@SupermanCrypto1]

Agree NT Wright is NT Wrong.

[@linnhudson4908]

I see the vision as two Paul's meeting each other. Paul is separated unto the gospel. Jesus lives in Paul as he says in galatians, many things that are not natural, but when it pleased God whom separated me from my mothers womb, I travail in birth again, and I bear the marks Jesus in my body. This is the second Paul, the first Paul wrote this as Jesus instructed him. 2nd Corinthians has so many clues to this and is the only scripture that mentions 2 witnesses besides revelation where Paul starts with this is my third visit, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, paul and Timothy and the angel of revelation 14, which he has to preaching Paul gospel or he is cursed. I bet moses nor Elijah have any scripture that links them together as two witnesses. That's old testament theology, paul and Timothy represent the new covenant.

[@protochris]

@@linnhudson4908 ?

[@linnhudson4908]

@@protochris I've got a lot of information on this perspective,Paul tells us of two distinct time frames 1st Corinthians 13:12 the now and then of Paul's ministry it's truly incredible that so much scripture points to Paul and timothy as the two but it's hidden in plain sight.

[@protochris]

@@linnhudson4908 Paul's first reference of being separated from his mother's womb simply means his apostleship came after the 12, because an apostle had to be an eyewitness to the ministry of Jesus. Timothy was taken in to Paul's ministry at a later time because his father was not a Jew. Remember, he had to have him circumcised.

[@anselman3156]

One wonders how much St Paul had actually learned of the beliefs of the Christians before his encounter with the risen Lord. He had certainly been present at the stoning of St Stephen, who had preached the Gospel. How much had he taken in, and how much was he stubbornly refusing to consider for even a moment, perhaps almost covering his ears so as not to hear "blasphemy"? He said he had received forgiveness for having ignorantly opposed the truth. How much might he have actually studied it?

[@remainhumble6432]

Think about it... He has an encounter with God, everything changes for him, regardless of what he knew or heard. He spends the next 17 years revisiting everything he had been taught and consolidates his beliefs... Pretty awesome.

[@anselman3156]

Remain Humble. And awesome to consider the many things directly communicated to him by the Lord during that time.

[@remainhumble6432]

anselman yup.. Then God uses him to change the world...

[@loganginger]

Without a doubt he would have been aware of some of the doctrines. We have records from pre christ where Jews discussed using the old scriptures the possibility of a multi personal God. Ultimately it was rejected as heresy probably because of the rejection of jesus himself. Paul admits that he was breathing murderous threats against Christianity. His purpose in Damascus was to stamp out Christianity.. If we decide alternate hypotheses we need something a little more factual because what e do have is eyewitness testimony to the contrary. I probably sound too dogmatic but what I am really asking is what is the evidence? We don't have a gentle persuasion story. Quite the opposite.

[@remainhumble6432]

Logan G I would use the word 'pluri' rather than 'multi' though I agree with your point.

[@loganross1861]

What REALLY happened? It wasn’t all that complicated....I don’t understand the premise here...or the purpose of this lesson...

[@Charles-Pettibone]

You're reading into a title that Wright had nothing to do with and is meant to get clicks. Wright fully believes that the Bible is telling the truth. I know this because I've read thousands of pages written by him.

[@versesquared4945]

Nonsense

[@danielstevens5345]

Whatever way you spin it, fundamentally Paul was a persecuter of those who followed 'the way' and after this Damascus road experience was convinced 'the way' was the correct understanding of true religion. (Acts 24:14)

[@michelhaineault6654]

intellect of men

[@tyrander1652]

If greatness did not rub off on the men who walked and talked with Jesus, why should we think that Saul/Paul is any different than Joseph Smith or L Ron Hubbard?

[@SecretplaceintheGlory]

Agreed.

[@DerrickthePinecone]

Is Hubbard or Smith mentioned in the Scriptures? Yes! They are. They're often referred to as "false teachers" perpetually by Paul, himself, Jude and Peter: all warn about false teachers. Saul/Paul is in the Scriptures, and if you take the Scriptures seriously, you know that he's there for a reason. In fact, it was through Paul that we have the Gospel in today's age of grace, which is 1st Corinthians 15:1-4. Without that, we have nothing. Paul is very important!

[@tyrander1652]

@@DerrickthePinecone So True. The scriptures say everything any man wants them to say.

[@falseprophetsthorn8723]

Paul is no better than Muhammad. *Where did Paul get told what he must do?* _“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”_ (Acts 9:6) _"16‘But get up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen from Me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’ “_ (Acts 26:16-18) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Did the other men fall to the ground?* _"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.”_ (Acts 9:7) _"And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’”_ (Acts 26:14) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Did the other men hear the voice?* _"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.”_ (Acts 9:7) _”And those being with me indeed beheld the light, but they did not hear the voice of the One speaking to me.“_ (Acts 22:9) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Was Paul a liar?* _"But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, devious person that I am, I took you in by deceit.”_ (2 Corinthians 12:16) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *The other eye witness accounts........ none* _“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.”_ (John 5:31 ) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹

[@allasaurous2738]

Almost denying the power

[@rebeccatexaschick7621]

I feel very uneasy accepting some guys version of what "really happened" in the mind of a man he NEVER KNEW at a time when he was alone on a road when the scriptures already recorded said event. Test every thought brothers and sisters in Christ. This feels..... not right. Why are we questioning the apostles themselves and therefore actually questioning the written scripture about this event?

[@Charles-Pettibone]

He said it was speculation, and he accepts the biblical narratives. it's a very uncharitable interpretation of his words that Wright is 'questioning the apostles" when his life's work has been spent proclaiming their message and putting down the unbelieving academic.

[@daspecialist1220]

Hey. So paul was not alone. Read the 3 seperate conversion stories. Anyone who does a true indepth study on paul being a paul apostle will come to the conclusiom that paul was not sent by Yah or Yashua...more rather a messenger of satan

[@rebeccatexaschick7621]

@@daspecialist1220 you're strong the original Paul was called by God himself on the road to Damascus because He was sent by satan? That makes zero sense. And yes, I realize he wasn't alone.

[@IAlephI]

@@rebeccatexaschick7621 (John 10:27) My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I'm muslim and I'm offering you a criteria to test what is from Christ and what is not. Matthew 7:20 (So then, by their fruit you will recognize them.) Was Paul sent by Satan or not? Hold that thought for a moment, a more fundamental question needs to be answered which is "Did Jesus claim Divinity?" If the answer is yes and Paul claimed Jesus to be God then it can't be from Satan. Would you agree? However, if Jesus did not claim Divinity and Paul claimed Jesus is God Divine. Say like Paul turned Jesus into a golden calf and called him God while Jesus was away just like Moses was away. Promoting false god despite Moses/Jesus teachings, would you say that could be from Satan. Would you agree? There is a third possiblity which is neither Jesus nor Paul claimed Jesus is God. Leaving it as simply a possibility for now, I would rather try to get closer to the root. What did Jesus teach? Did Jesus teach: 1) Jesus needs to die 2) Jesus is God 1) Jesus needs to die John 8:40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. (When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.) Jesus calls it murder, clearly. Work of the devil. (Jesus needs to die) ...really? Jesus goes on to pray with sweat and tears to be saved. Sentiments of loving his murder (work of the devil, John 8:44) or no? Clearly no. Was it a situation of (God-man) loving and hating his murder which makes no sense or was it clearly a lie and a contradiction in a sea of contradictions? 2) Jesus is God. Did Jesus claim to be God? Did Aaron build a golden calf? Do Prophets call towards the One True God or build golden calfs and false idols which is the work of Satan. Is idolatry good fruit or bad fruit? Matthew 7 15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. It follows Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' i) Not entering the kingdom of heaven is linked to what.. (but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.) ii) Those people did all of their works in the name of whom... Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Three times its mentioned. iii) What is the reply they get? And why is that? (but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.) Who is the Father according to Jesus? - The only one to know the hour - Greater than all - Greater than I - The only true God - My God and your God Do Prophets call towards the One True God or build golden calfs and false idols? Consider two houses, one built on the rock while the other built on sand. Matthew 7 24 Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because its foundation was on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the torrents raged, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell-and great was its collapse!” Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. (but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.) Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

[@wordwordful]

Think one would call NT Wright's explanation SPECULATIVE IMAGINATION.

[@YohananBenYosef]

Here is the issue we see again and again, currently in Canada, the Christian focus on the faith at the expense of the universal noahide laws of the Torah. This can be regarded as a major significant deviation from the main path to salvation as outlined on Sinai by God.

[@blairmalfara6990]

I am not sure what you guys are talking about? This is was incredibly insightful from one of the best scholars today. Might not be what we are used to, but why wouldn't Paul be reading these standard jewish prayer, and meditating, and finds out that God has fully revealed himself in Christ. Amazing!

[@jonpool9030]

Can N T Wright say anything that you find inaccurate?

[@blairmalfara6990]

Ofcourse haha. I disagree on NT Wright on a number of things like justification and sanctification. I take a more traditional approach whereas he would challenge that notion.

[@jonpool9030]

@@blairmalfara6990 I was just asking cause I believe from his take on penal substitution he's absolutely wrong. And on many other things. So I'm with you, I wasn't saying he's correct

[@jonpool9030]

The problem with his assertions is that they are just that. He speaks as tho his opinions on what Paul was thinking is fact. Paul wasn't a worshiper of the true and living God before his conversion in any way. He was a Pharisee who rejected Jesus as the messiah just like the pharisees in John 8. Wright uses conjecture as fact.

[@blairmalfara6990]

Agreed 100%!

[@jonpool9030]

No he wasn't meditating on anything like that. Come on man read the account in Acts. He was only intent on destroying THE WAY. Paul was like any other pharisee of the day. If you think that they worshipped God just take a look at the conversations between Jesus and the Pharisees. This guy spews nonsense and his not biblical ideas and passes it off as Christian scholarship.

[@joelrappaport1034]

Chariot meditation and Kundalini is what happened to Paul. Hard core spiritual meditations.

[@elsacooper1769]

Kundalini experience doesn't cause people to go all out to proclaim the love and spiritual Lordship of Jesus Christ, and freedom from religious burdens. Kundalini is an angel of light, just like Lucifer. Be careful. Paul suffered for his faith. He MET the Lord Jesus. Kundalini is a false god, a counterfeit experience. All that is spiritual is not Godly. Jesus said He is the Good Shepherd, He is the door to God, He takes care of His sheep. Kundalini says here, you can have all this wonderful experience and power without submitting to God, sneak i via the window, these secret tricks will get you there. And suddenly you are trapped.

[@joelrappaport1034]

@@elsacooper1769 sounds like you know nothing on what your writing about. Have you ever done kundalini?

[@rodneyblackwell7477]

Why doesn't god blind everyone until they believe in him.. if this didnt violate Paul's free will.

[@sophrapsune]

Rodney Blackwell Perhaps you can ask Him when He blinds you?

[@rodneyblackwell7477]

sophrapsune .. so you have no idea then?

[@remainhumble6432]

Because unlike Paul, you are not seeking...

[@rodneyblackwell7477]

One can feel the CHristian love....

[@remainhumble6432]

Rodney Blackwell sorry mate, but Jesus did say that if you seek, you will find. Christian love is telling the truth even if it might offend...

[@Miatpi]

Cool idea, though it is just speculation oj his part.

[@linnhudson4908]

The exact timing of the rapture of the church is when the two witnesses are presented to God by Jesus with us at the rapture of the church . Paul and Timothy are the two witnesses, 2nd Corinthians 4:14 . This was revealed in a dream that produced this revelation, it all fits perfectly. Roman's 1:1 Paul called to be a apostle separated unto the gospel of God, 2nd Corinthians forward in scripture is the harvest that ends at the rapture when we are all caught up, Paul did include himself and Timothy and all when we are all caught up together.

[@BeefyPreacher]

Delusional

[@linnhudson4908]

@@BeefyPreacher ok, so you are God's and you can say this of another Christian, I didn't force my opinion on you. You might want to reconsider speaking this way to others , I spend a lot of time studying and Paul has a lot to say. So please apologize to the holy spirit for your disbelief.

[@hilairebelloc3368]

@@linnhudson4908 Claiming that a person needs to apologize to the Holy Spirit for rejecting your beliefs, when in fact the notion of a "rapture" has very little pedigree in Christian thought and is, on a biblical level, pretty clearly an invention of man, is not to your credit.

[@nosuchthing8]

It could be a lightning strike

[@hargisP2]

I can't stand people who speculate on what someone maybe thinking, when the person of interest has not said. It's very much like adding to scripture which is forbidden.

[@Charles-Pettibone]

Wow, a lot of *whoosh* in the comment section.

[@TorianTammas]

Can we next have a Harry Potter or a Spiderman scene. It is nice to find a place that takes fan fiction so serious.

[@protochris]

Let's leave Potter , Spiderman, and the famous flying spaghetti monster out of serious discussion. It only shows blissful ignorance to include them

[@TorianTammas]

@@protochris What makes greek fan fiction about a dead arameic preacher "serious"? Paul claims to have been in third heaven and hear voices in his head from outer space. This is the same category like people wo claim to be abducted by aliens and gain information from aliens on alpha centauri. Just because we are just to weird claims about Paul make them not less alien.

[@WiseAsSerpentsHarmlessAsDoves]

Those you mentions are fiction indeed not the Bible though of course

[@ronclass1782]

Dude Paul was certainly converted. How many hardcore Jews like Paul convert to Christianity?

[@ashishalex16]

Unbelievable.

[@David-bb4eu]

"I think..." is not Scripture. 2:45he says 'Saul was meditating on the throne chariot ' while Acts 9:1 says "Saul was still breathing out murderous threats...". Jesus said to Saul "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting". Disproving the claim of meditation! 2Corinthians 5:17 is about conversion not meditation. In Galatians 1:11 "Paul says that he "did not make this ip". If someone preaches another gospel...beware! Look into their background and stay in the Bible! And get into a sound doctrine denomination.

[@lauterunvollkommenheit4344]

A nice, misleading title.

[@coachbrucehill]

Wow! Talk about taking some artistic liberties!

[@bozhidarbalkas7269]

NIV, Lk 10:22, "All things have been committed to me by my Father [Yahweh, or Hebrew only God?]. No one knows who the Father is except the Son and no one knows who the Son is except the Father and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him". Begs the question: To how many believers the Son is showing God right now? Is it all of them or only some? And to how many of Jesus' followers God reveals his Son? Is it just to Jesus' apostles and disciples! Many Christians now must fret why were they not allowed as of yet to know the Son nor God [or Yahweh]? Do they feel Godless and just as i do! Show less Show less

[@divisorplot]

thx imago dio imago dei iod the story of phi(io) God [?] soul funny diel paul pail miss print secchio meno de nulla. loved only numbers [?]

[@chernowitz]

NT Wright’s books are very useful they are holding a table leg in my basement.

[@onestepaway3232]

Paul was an Orthodox Jew. He believed the scriptures of the prophets from cover to cover. Jesus came to him and revealed as the book of Acts proclaims. From there you see a new creation name Paul, not Saul but Paul. Shalom

[@jwt208]

NT it’s so wordy and philosophical that you lose any understanding what he’s trying to say. I think The apostle Paul can say more in one chapter of the Scriptures than NT can see the thousand page book, why is NT considered a leader in the Christian church.

[@wordwordful]

MONEY. HE SELLS BOOKS.

[@pokemaul2k4]

The Separation of Church and State could be seen as originating from Christianity. At the time of Jesus and previously, Judaism was definitely a method of theocratic state of the Jewish people. The legal and political system was interwoven into the temple. The arrival of Jesus and through the continuance of Paul divorced access to God from the high priest classes to the individual and thus laws and politics binding the people in their service.

[@thiccmcchicken550]

If you close your eyes and imagine that Darth Vader is talking it makes it so much better

[@philiphughes5302]

Paul, or Saul, was a Jew who misunderstood the nature of the law. He thought salvation came through the law. The conversion he underwent entailed him coming to see that the law only condemned, and that salvation can come only through Christ. The Jews were looking for salvation in the wrong covenant. In the OT is was found only in the promised new covenant. The law served to elevate the proprose. The Jews misunderstood the means for the end.

[@agritrend4812]

Bollocks. Paul was having an erotic fantasy about giving his bone to Mary Magdalene when he suffered a temporal lobe epileptic episode and thought he saw Jesus.

[@sharonconnolly273]

disgusting really so unnecessary why watch and comment on topics from a point of disrespect and total ignorance

[@agritrend4812]

@@sharonconnolly273 I have total disrespect for idiots who believe in some sort of theistic delusion. And especially to Christians who believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, went around performing miracles and casting out demons and somehow had to die on a cross to save the World and is currently listening to our prayers in Heaven as part of some fucked up invented triple entity Father / Holy Spririt / Son blah blah bullshit. My disrespect for Christianity and all other superstitions is based on knowledge and rationality. How can you believe this utter shit?? You might as well believe in voo-doo or perhaps in Xenu and orgons as do the Scientologists. Don't accuse me of being ignorant until you have learned how to think for yourself.

[@DavidVonR]

@@agritrend4812 You sound like Paul before he converted.

[@agritrend4812]

@@DavidVonR St Paul was the inventor and founder of Christianity. Jesus would have been wild with rage to learn of all the woo woo which Paul invented in his name. Jesus would have whipped him out of town in much the same way as he whipped the money traders in the temple.

[@peterhallam3623]

I’m surprised by this. I think Tom Wright is brilliant in many ways, but because of personal experience, I believe he has missed the mark regarding what happened to Paul.

[@nobs4898]

1. Paul says Jesus "appeared" to him - 1 Cor 15:8. 2. The appearance to Paul was a "vision" or "revelation" from heaven - Acts 26:19 cf. Gal. 1:16.* 3. Paul uses his vision/revelation from heaven as a "resurrection appearance" - 1 Cor 15:5-8. 4. Therefore, visions/revelations from heaven counted as "resurrection appearances." * - Note that by "vision/revelation" I mean it was not a physical encounter with a revived corpse that could be touched. Rather, the Risen Jesus was *located in heaven* and was spiritually revealed to Paul (Gal. 1:16) in some sort of subjective spiritual way. Paul is the earliest and only firsthand source written by someone who claimed to have "seen" or "experienced" Jesus and is therefore a more reliable witness than any of the gospel data. Appealing to the later gospels is fallacious because those aren't firsthand sources. Rather, they are later unverified claims by non-eyewitnesses claiming what the disciples saw in the third person. Each account grows more fantastic in detail in regards to how the Risen Jesus was experienced (consistent with embellishment) and the accounts are disputed in regards to their historical claims and authorship. Paul is the only undisputed and verified firsthand source. He makes no distinction between the "appearances" mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5-8.

[@dannorris8478]

Typical NT “scholarship”, a series of speculations that builds a house of cards that undermines sound doctrine and or creates a new understanding out of almost nothing. Memo to Wright Paul was converted from a false understanding of God to a true understanding of God. Conversion has never been understood as only applying to atheists. What galls me about Wright is he’s always like the person in the room who thinks he’s the smartest one there who everybody needs to hear.

[@charlespierce3647]

Wrong.

[@lancepayette6753]

A man more in love with himself and his own voice than with God. "Unbelievable" is an appropriate context for Wright's smug pontification.

[@zarnoffa]

Paul spent considerable amount of ink describing something completely different than the garbage that just came spewing out of this guy’s mouth with an accent that makes it almost seem legit. Why do people waste their time like this?

[@Charles-Pettibone]

Seriously, what's your problem? Wright is a believer, dude. He wrote a 700 page book proclaiming the historical, bodily resurrection of Jesus. You shouldn't be so quick to assert that others have something to learn when it might be you who lacks knowledge. Wright states that Paul, a Jew, saw his vision as similar to the visions of the Hebrew prophets. And when Paul saw that similarity, he found that Jesus is God. Why are you so upset about this?

[@zarnoffa]

Kabane52 Dude, he wasted time leading up to a pure speculation that Paul was meditating on a very specific verse. I had to watch it again to see if I was being harsh. I wasn’t. Paul was on the road and light literally burned his eyes - hence the dry scales and his eye troubles later. It wasn’t just in Paul’s meditating head like this guy seems to be saying. Total waste of time because he sounds like he’s going to offer something grounded and true, but nada. Complete nothing. EDIT: I’ve since watched an hour long presentation of his. He does well and has many interesting points. It’s strange he would be so... convey it as if Paul’s experience was all mental like it was a result of intense meditation.

[@Charles-Pettibone]

@@zarnoffa Ah, I think I see how you misread him- he wasn't saying that the text was what *produced* the experience, but was what Paul *thought of* when the experience happened. Wright is definitely a believer in the supernatural and miracles! The question is asked in light of Wright's book "Paul: A Biography" which is great.

[@zarnoffa]

Kabane52 He’s saying, “I imagine Paul was thinking exactly this when he encounters Jesus...” and I’m thinking, “OK, are you a time-traveling mind-reader?” He does communicate well in his style, though.

[@falseprophetsthorn8723]

Anyone can tell by looking at him that he spends most of time eating donuts. 🔹Paul on the Damascus Road .........hmmm *Where did Paul get told what he must do?* _“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”_ (Acts 9:6) _"16‘But get up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen from Me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those sanctified by faith in Me.’ “_ (Acts 26:16-18) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Did the other men fall to the ground?* _"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.”_ (Acts 9:7) _"And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’”_ (Acts 26:14) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Did the other men hear the voice?* _"And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.”_ (Acts 9:7) _”And those being with me indeed beheld the light, but they did not hear the voice of the One speaking to me.“_ (Acts 22:9) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *Was Paul a liar?* _"But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, devious person that I am, I took you in by deceit.”_ (2 Corinthians 12:16) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 *The other eye witness accounts........ none* _“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.”_ (John 5:31 ) 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹 🔹

[@ciaran82359]

Word salad!

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Psilocybin mushrooms or LSD was probably on Paul's mind. If someone today had the "visions" that Paul had people would just say "Man you must have been high, you saw God!! damn give me some of that wicked shit"

[@mrtruth5952]

Such a nice fairy tale. Lol

[@stuartwest2168]

Stopped listening about 2;36........way too much speculation, extra Biblical sources and on and on.......I just want Gospel not the yarnspinning of beardy interlectuals.......

[@anselman3156]

Stuart. Your spelling of intellectuals is ironic, right?

[@stuartwest2168]

anselman 'fraid you just fell for my gotcha........I love to catch the pompous and superior..... .no-one with any class picks up another on spelling.....sad........

[@anselman3156]

Stuart. You misunderstood. I knew what you were about, and I smiled at your comment. I was just expressing appreciation for it, not being pompous.

[@anselman3156]

p.s. I had given you a thumbs up. Do not think evil of people unjustly.

[@truethinker221]

Ya but it is kinda of like calling someone an idiot but spelling idiot with an e instead of an i. Ediot ! When we criticize a thing or a person we must be careful we are not criticizing our self. If we are not reading the original Greek Manuscripts everything we read is speculation. Even then some is speculation as there is no original. So to say we do not need outside sources is ridicules every thing is attributed to biblical scholars that took the time to devote there lives to ancient language study so they could come up with a reasonable translation . But no translation is perfect. Even in the letter to the reader in the original KJB is cautions the reader to verify the translation with the autograph copies.

[@oldvagabondofoakport4495]

It is 2000 years later. It is time for another revelation.

[@eamonnmurphy1844]

Old Vagabond of Oakport medugorge... Fatima...

[@alftupper9359]

Old V.... Why not 1000? Why 2000? Why not 3000? Why at all?

[@pokemaul2k4]

Jordan Peterson has a new way of interpreting the Bible. Maybe check that out.

[@anselman3156]

That will be the coming in glory to judge the world.

[@plumberphil5321]

Leave it to NT Wright to confuse a simple conversion from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light . If you thought you knew what a passage meant, go to Wright and you'll be more in dark .

[@tomidomusic]

*Nothing profound here folks. Keep moving. If NT Wright had a southern hick accent no one would listen....sorry Tom.*

[@jackieann5494]

I disagree ... Nuanced but important to me .......but everyone is entitled to their own opinion . 👍😊👍 God bless you !

[@abourachidhamidi228]

Paul is the inventor of Christianity while the Emperor Constantine is the director of this dogma to have political power, military and spiritual!

[@ronclass1782]

Lol

[@jackiemontgomery1754]

The Damascus story comes from Acts which was written by a later author. Paul himself describes his experience as an "inner revelation" in Gal. 1:16. This happened to Paul while Jesus was believed to be *in heaven.* It was not a physical encounter with a revived corpse. Paul uses this spiritual revelation as a *Resurrection appearance* in 1 Cor 15:8 while using the same verb _ophthe_ (appeared) for each "appearance" in the list in 1 Cor 15:5-7. No distinction in regards to the nature is made. Therefore, a probable interpretation of this is that Paul was just saying Jesus "spiritually appeared" to everyone from heaven which refutes the physical resurrection in the later gospels. Orthodox Christianity is quite easy to refute and showing them this argument drives apologists crazy.

[@onestepaway3232]

Jackie Montgomery do spirits sit down with markings and eat? Jesus appearing in the flesh was needed to convince Thomas he had risen. It was a physical experience per the text.

[@jackiemontgomery1754]

@@onestepaway3232 You don't get those stories until the latest sources. The resurrection is a legend that grew over time. Watch how experiencing the Risen Jesus evolves in chronological order. Scholarly consensus dating places the documents as follows: Paul c. 50 CE - is the only firsthand report. He says the Risen Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη (1 Cor 15:5-8) and was experienced through "visions" and "revelations" - 2 Cor 12:1. The appearance to Paul was a vision/revelation *from heaven* - Gal. 1:12-16, Acts 26:19 (not a physical encounter with a revived corpse) and he makes no distinction between what he "saw" and what the others "saw" in 1 Cor 15:5-8. This shows that early Christians accepted visions as Resurrection "appearances." Paul nowhere gives any evidence of the Risen Christ being experienced in a more "physical" way which means you have to necessarily read in the *assumption* that the appearances were physical, from a later source that Paul nowhere corroborates. He had a chance to mention the empty tomb in 1 Cor 15 when it would have greatly helped his argument but doesn't. Paul's order of appearances: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned. Mark c. 70 CE - introduces the empty tomb but has no appearance report. Predicts Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. The original ends at 16:8 where the women leave and tell no one. Mark's order of appearances: Not applicable. Matthew c. 80 CE - has the women tell the disciples, contradicting Mark's ending, has some women grab Jesus' feet, then has an appearance in Galilee which "some doubt" - Mt. 28:17. Matthew also adds a descending angel, great earthquake, and a zombie apocalypse to spice things up. If these things actually happened then it's hard to believe the other gospel authors left them out, let alone any other contemporary source from the time period. Matthew's order of appearances: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee. Luke 85-95 CE - has the women immediately tell the disciples, contradicting Mark. Jesus appears in Jerusalem, not Galilee, contradicting Matthew's depiction and Mark's prediction. He appears to two people on the Emmaus Road who don't recognize him at first. Jesus then vanishes and suddenly appears to the disciples. This time Jesus is "not a spirit" but a "flesh and bone" body that gets inspected, eats fish, then floats to heaven while all the disciples watch - conspicuously missing from all the earlier reports. Luke's order of appearances: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem. John 90-110 CE - Jesus can now walk through walls and has the Doubting Thomas story where Jesus gets poked. Jesus is also basically God in this gospel which represents another astonishing development. John's order of appearances: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip. As you can see, these reports are inconsistent with one another and represent growth that's better explained as legendary accretion rather than actual history. If these were actual historical reports that were based on eyewitness testimony then we would expect more consistency than we actually get. None of the resurrection reports in the gospels even match Paul's appearance chronology in 1 Cor 15:5-8 and the later sources have amazing stories that are drastically different from and nowhere even mentioned in the earliest reports. The story evolves from Paul's spiritual/mystical Christ all the way up to literally touching a resurrected corpse that flies to heaven! So upon critically examining the evidence we can see the clear linear development that Christianity started with spiritual visionary experiences and evolved to the ever-changing physical encounters in the gospels.

[@peterhudson5748]

why don't the Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah?

[@DerrickthePinecone]

They don't believe, for one reason, because they were "spiritually blinded" by Christ, himself, who held them accountable for not knowing their Scriptures about his first coming! Their Messiah was before them, but what did they do? They rejected him! They rejected him, indeed, and they're spiritually blinded, but God isn't finished with Israel! He will go back to dealing with them very soon, and to drive them to the point of asking for their Messiah comes at the pinnacle of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, which is specifically about Israel! Their blindness has already started to lift as the gospel is being preached in Israel and many Jews are coming to salvation in Yeshua!

[@peterhudson5748]

@@DerrickthePinecone "many Jews are coming to salvation in Yeshua!" people have been prophesizing Jesus' return for 2000 years. when did he say he was going to return? haven't you been expecting his return "any day" since he "died" (but actually didn't)?

[@nosuchthing8]

Some Jewish people did believe. Remember most of the apostles in the NT bible were jewish, paul was Jewish, etc

[@robertword1357]

Nonsense.

[@DH-kl3ob]

NT Wright spends his life trying to justify Paul’s authenticity. But Paul is a flat out liar. Christianity is the religion of Paul, a man swept up in his own ego who needed power, control, and a voice. Christianity has nothing to do with the G-d of Israel.

[@anselman3156]

Danny Harper. Why do you omit the o from a good English word? What is your religion, and how does it compare with the religion of God's love in Jesus Christ which St Paul preached and which has transformed millions of lives? What fruits does your religion have to show?

[@JosephHMama]

anselman It's a common Jewish practice to omit the middle letter of the word God in written English.

[@anselman3156]

A curious practice. Do they pronounce it fully?

[@loganginger]

Christianity is proven true and vindicated not by Paul. It was way before him. It was done via the resurrection. You can hate Paul but he had no power, wealth, extra wives or anything that humans possess. He was despised. But even if you can't swallow that, you still ahve to contend with the resurrection

[@anselman3156]

Logan G. Surely also St Paul and the transformation of lives and civilization are evidences of the truth of the Risen Savior. His resurrection does not stand in isolation from the wonderful results of His abiding presence as King over His Church and over the earth.

[@KeganVanSickle]

Wrong.