Resisting the Empire: A Kingdom-Oriented Approach to Politics & Government - N.T. Wright - 103

When we consider politics and government, how can we best guide ourselves and our churches to live out a Christ-centered political witness? In this week's conversation on FrontStage BackStage, host Jason Daye is joined by Dr. N.T. Wright. Tom is the former Bishop of Durham, Professor Emeritus at the University of St. Andrews, and a senior research fellow at Oxford. He's written a number of books, including his latest, entitled Jesus and The Powers. Together, Tom and Jason explore the kingdom of God as it relates to the kingdoms of this world. Tom then provides some insights into how the church can show up when it comes to politics, embracing a kingdom-oriented political posture as we resist the empire.
Dig deeper into this conversation: Find the free Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide, all resource links, and more, at PastorServe.org/network
Some key takeaways from this conversation:
N.T. Wright on the importance of finding common ground while maintaining integrity and authenticity: "We have to learn how to oppose without dualism and collaborate without compromise."
N.T. Wright on the moral obligation to confront difficult situations or issues, even if they are uncomfortable or complicated: "The powers are dark messy powers, and it's a messy business engaging with them, but not to engage is to lose all sense of Christian responsibility."
N.T. Wright on the significance of Christians engaging with critical thinking skills to address various issues in the world: "We need Christians who have learned how to think wisely about the issues and can then be salt and light in the world."
----------------
Looking to dig more deeply into this topic and conversation? FrontStage BackStage is much more than another church leadership show, it is a complete resource to help you and your ministry leaders grow. Every week we go the extra mile and create a free toolkit so you and your ministry team can dive deeper into the topic that is discussed.
Visit PastorServe.org/network to find the entire Weekly Toolkit, including the Ministry Leaders Growth Guide (Our team pulls key insights and quotes from every conversation with our amazing guests. We also create engaging questions for you and your team to consider and process, providing space for you to reflect on how that episode's topic relates to your unique church context. Use these questions in your regular staff meetings, or other settings, to guide your conversation as you invest in the growth of your ministry leaders.)
Love well, live well, and lead well
----------------
Complimentary Coaching Session for Pastors PastorServe.org/freesession
----------------
Follow PastorServe
LinkedIn / pastorserve
Twitter / pastorserve
Instagram / pastorserve
Facebook / pastorserve
----------------
Connect with Jason Daye
LinkedIn / jasondaye
Instagram / jasondaye

[@florencevonmolendorff6121]

Thank you, Jason, for hosting people like Tom Wright. What a joy and delight he is. Blessings to you from Willows Methodist Church, Pretoria, South Africa

[@PastorServe]

Thank you, Florence. We are lifting up Willows Methodist Church in prayer!

[@jeanne89]

Excellent interview, especially now as we move into the election year in America. I’ve been trying to understand all of this since 2016. Thank you so much.

[@roddumlauf9241]

Blessings of Peace and Goodness. Thank you for this wonderful talk by N.T. Wright ( my favorite modern day Scripture scholar). I'm a Franciscan Deacon and run a small Anglo-Catholic Franciscan mission in Northern Wisconsin.

[@PastorServe]

Blessings and peace to you, as well. Praying for your mission in Wisconsin. We love Tom Wright, as well!

[@hapennysparrow]

I am not a pastor or leader, but these topics interest me greatly as I've watched our society unravel into polarized camps where to be on one side is to be the enemy of the other. This divide was created by a single issue and manipulated to gain power and control, leading to chaos and confusion, hatred, and the spread of violence as a means to force conformity to a toxic ideology akin to fascism. I so appreciate N.T. Wrights nuanced thinking about the Kingdom of Heaven being applied to political leadership to enact Christ's call for justice, rights of the poor, environmental responsibility, equity, and integrity in governance. Jesus is a King, not an elected official, but can call people of good character and service- minded priorities into position of leadership to create and enact laws that reinforce God's intentions to order society after His model given to man in the teachings of Jesus. I am looking forward to reading this book. The Holy Post guested Mr. Wright on last week's podcast, and I've since listened to two other fascinating interviews with this brilliant author. More of the same, please. This upcoming election in the U S. is fraught with danger. It has become a fight to remain a representative Democracy or a slide into authoritarian autocracy. God help us. The threat of violence over the outcome is very real. God bless.

[@michaelward7051]

If you think the upcoming election in the U S. is fraught with danger, doesn't that say something about your already decided views? Why does it have to be viewed as a "fight to remain a representative Democracy" ...OR..."...Slide into authoritarian autocracy."? Representative democracy would be allowing people to vote, of course there is a good possibility that the democrats are working to permit 10-12 million people that entered the country illegally to vote for Joe Biden. That would not be "representative democracy". Is that the danger you fear? The alternative is to have fair elections, where only citizens vote, that is representative democracy. I assume you would agree, so yes, I suppose I would agree that that is the danger. As for "sliding into authoritarian autocracy"....well, if the people vote for Biden, we will continue in that state. We are already in a democratic authoritarian autocracy, it's the current Biden administration, so it's really a win win here. We will either continue in this authoritarian autocracy of the Biden Crime Family, or we will be free once again, and have Trump returning law and order, and actually the World will be better off. Biden brought us Ukraine, Gaza, it's all on that Biden authoritarian autocracy you fear, it's already here. Somehow, I don't believe that is what you think, but hey, being vague is the plague, and being specific is terrific!

[@reja1309]

I'm really sorry for you if you think we still have a representative democracy under the Democrats (or Republicans). Neither one acts in the interest of the people they supposedly serve. It's all about the Party, not the People. Every last bum needs to be thrown out. Will you be voting for more of the same destruction caused by the open border?

[@outofcreationjewelrybydave940]

I’m Dave Hall from Gainesville, Florida. I’m a member of Servants of Christ Anglican Church.

[@jonathandnicholson]

I always enjoy listening to (N) Tom Wright.

[@PastorServe]

As do we, Jonathan! Blessings!

[@juditrotter5176]

It is so interesting to me how many Americans are on this channel seeking the way to go. What a blessing that you are here to help us find our way home!

[@CarolCouper-xn8ic]

From St. Timothy’s Lutheran Church-San Jose, CA. I am a fan of N T Wright.

[@charlesyip9202]

Thank you Dr N.T Wright, your message is useful for some one like me even though I am not an Amercian.

[@phillipsugwas]

If you "get" the Kingdom and" the already and the not yet", and especially whose World this is, and is on the way to becoming, namely a restored creation here -on this earth , everything else is really " rock n roll." Christians are the peacemakers, we speak truth to power and we speak about who is actually Lord.

[@PastorServe]

Yes, Phillip. We are called to be peacemakers. Blessings!

[@BJohnDoyle]

The struggle: the world is so inverted by the corruption of greed that it is allergic to peaceful voices, viewing them as vicious rather than virtuous.

[@darlameeks]

If N.T. Wright is on, I'm watching! Thank you! This makes me think of the U.S. election of 2000. During the campaign, the Bush camp partnered with faith-based charities and promised "compassionate conservatism". If elected, the Bush administration would funnel government funds to faith-based charities so that the church could administrate assistance to the widow, the orphan, the disabled, the elderly, etc. However, once Bush got into office, his administration stopped talking to these faith-based charities, refusing to make good on its promise. Instead, the resources were funneled to the war on Iraq (something they had planned to do before 9/11 ever happened). They even took money away from the Social Security Trust Fund for that war...and we are now living with the SSA under threat of financial collapse. I know for a fact that there is no church in America that is willing or able to take care of even one elderly parishioner to a dignified end. When I watched my mother's health start to decline in her 70's, how many times she had to be hospitalized and the medications she had to take, the long term rehab stays, etc...I knew that taking care of just one elderly person costs millions of dollars under our current health care system. Medicare shielded us from that cost. Social Security kept her in her home. Hospice was paid for, and allowed her to die at home. Not one church stepped up to offer her any financial help at all, even though St. Paul allowed for churches to provide such help to "true widows" like my Mom (she was a Baptist, and her church was down the street from her). The Church must rely on government help for this...every church has more than one elderly parishioner, and disabled people, as well.

[@SamOgilvieJr]

I have yet to see an American politician proclaiming or in many cases screaming, "I know Jesus", that I feel has the perspective, wisdom and personality needed to lead a small municipality, much less the country. Furthermore, if you see the fruit or qualities of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control and humility exhibited in any of these individuals, by all means, point them out. There are over 250 churches in my little community of less than 70, 000 people and they all claim to have the real answers, the answers to all the great questions of the faith and how this country must be administered. The USA was founded upon the best of principles and values and we have done a decent job of moving towards those in practice. History seems to indicate that, until Jesus appears, the best we can do is reflect Him to those around us and in power.

[@davidcleroux9926]

A great faith building interview. Psa 34:10, Eze 38:13

[@marktaylor4496]

I am a retired recently minister who meets with the White Oak Christian Church near Ross, Ohio.

[@marilynstaley7256]

Marilyn Staley Cherry Street Wesleyan Ottawa KS

[@PastorServe]

Praying for CHerry Street Wesleayan, Marilyn. Blessings!

[@danatowne5498]

This conversation is SO needed, thank you! I'm not a minister, I'm a lay person in Massachusetts, USA. I pray for our leaders - which can be a struggle in itself if my eyes are on the world and not the kingdom in the world.

[@PastorServe]

Thank you! So pleased to hear you found this conversation with Tom meaningful. Blessings!

[@michaelward7051]

You likely don't agree with this, but my view is that the Democrats are the ones that are concerned about their power. The deep state is working tirelessly to remove the peoples desire to vote for Trump. So that would describe the democrats seeking the Kingdom of the world. The Biden Crime Family demonstrates this. Cheers!

[@dynamicloveministries334]

This is life changing. Thanks.

[@Yellowblam]

Wise words. Many thanks.

[@peterandjoycevanbreemen600]

Thanks!

[@pattyphillips5187]

Patty Phillips from Valley Church, Vacaville, CA

[@daneumurian5466]

A fellow student at Kent State University quoted Lao Tze: "To organize is to destroy." I responded, "To organize with care, love, wiisdom, and understanding is to preserve and enhance." He replied, "I like that."

[@AndrewFoster-nk3hj]

Andrew Foster. Come Alive Community Church

[@PastorServe]

Andrew, we are praying for Coma Alive Community Church... God bless you!

[@farmergiles1065]

Those who guide themselves and their churches witness only to their own opinion. Christ's witness to politics is to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. He proclaimed that His Kingdom is not of this world. And the Scripture warns us (Ps 145(146):3) "Trust not in rulers or in the sons of men". A Christian's center is not in politics.

[@1754Me]

Amen. Jesus is King and He began God's eternal kingdom which, as Daniel said, started off as a stone which "became a great mountain and filled the whole earth....And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever" (Dan 2:35b,44). So those who are NOW obedient to the King's commands (whether Jew or Gentile) make up His Kingdom, just as the Israelites were God's kingdom as they wandered about in the desert 3 months after leaving Egypt (Ex 19:1-6). Jesus' Kingdom cannot be shaken (Heb 12:28) as it is not of this world as you pointed out. His Kingdom's characteristics consists of mercy and grace and peace and righteousness and love, things that we only could hope and dream that our earthly "kingdoms" would be characteristic of. And so now the people who have been born again by the Spirit (John 3:1-21) have entered Jesus' Kingdom and their "citizenship is in heaven" (Phil 3:20) but they are "ambassadors for Christ" (2 Cor 5:20) while residing on the earth. [Note--the term "Christ" has in mind of being a king as the religious leaders pointed out to Pilate in Luke 23:2--"saying that he himself is Christ, a king.”] And His followers are to reflect the Kingdom's characteristics to the world as we walk in the Holy Spirit, bearing the Fruit of the Spirit (Rom 14:17). On the LAST DAY (no other days following-Jn 6:39,40,44,54) when Jesus returns to earth and our faith is made sight, then those who have entered His Kingdom in this life, will inherit the kingdom and eternal life found only in Him. Those who have not entered the Kingdom (i.e. His enemies) will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is their second death.

[@jaggedstarrPI]

Agreed for the most part; but NT Wright points out elsewhere that the Greek text originally read that His kingdom was not "from" this world, meaning that it is very much intended for this world, "on Earth as it is in heaven," but that it's not from, or, it's not of the character of, or, it wasn't produced by this world; so don't expect it to look or act like this world of political violence and power. Still, again, I agree with your main point if I hear you properly.

[@farmergiles1065]

@@jaggedstarrPI It is neither from this world nor of this world, to put it in English. Between most languages, current or ancient, prepositions just don't translate perfectly. I'm not clear on what NT Wright is trying to say about it. But I think the meaning is clear enough if you look at the deeds of Christ Himself. Clearly, He had no earthly kingdom to be "from". And neither did He intend to bring the kingdom He was "of" here in the form of an earthly kingdom. That is what many ancient Jews thought He was doing on Palm Sunday, that he would free them from the yoke of Roman rule -which is why they crucified Him later in the week when it became clear to them that He had no intention to do that. As for millenialism, it is also clear that when He comes again, the Earth will come to an end. Sorry I didn't make myself clear the first time, but I was trying to be more succinct.

[@daneumurian5466]

A House United "Jefferson said church and state need wallsof separation. But free expression cuts some windows of communication. And common interest opens doorways of cooperation. For less than this would be to pull shades of discrimination."

[@sandywong1959]

Great discussion… thank you both!

[@dynamicloveministries334]

The thing paul told the powers was that Jesus was raised from the dead, that they need to believe on him and submit to him. You only do that once or twice and you find trouble.

[@marktaylor4496]

Tom is so right about how so many churches today are divided by race and economics, and we basically have accepted this as “normal.”

[@thewrightoknow]

I wonder is there any one issue that Christians could ever think would be the deciding factor on who to vote for? Would it be slavery, abortion, lowering the age of sexual consent to 4 years old, etc…..

[@kellyrhoads1067]

Yes, voting has been hard for me, because I feel like I have to choose 1 things above all else at times. I am from Texas, but lived in Austria, where there were 3 major parties and one was definitely more in the middle, that always had majority of votes. We have independents here that seem to be more in the middle but don't get much traction. Honestly, voting gives me a sickly feeling but I am still compelled to do it. I love wrights take on being political activists by using the sermon on the mount as our guide

[@phillipsugwas]

​​@@kellyrhoads1067 The question about who to vote for is only capable of being answered by one within the context wherein you find youself living. All this superficial stuff which passes for grounded decision making ( usually manifesting as "I can't vote for X , because this person/ party does not restrict abortions/ increase social spending etc etc" misses the point by a mile. 1. There is NO party/ person/ political organisation which is going to be "at one" with the gospel "requirements".( read into this th values/ BEHAVIOURS spoken of in the sermon on the mount) 2. The question, given the most basic role of the state, to protect its citizenry, provide basic services , etc is only answered by asking and answering " which person/ group will, onbalance do the most good( and the least harm!!) for the people affected by my vote.? Somewhat unsatisfactory? Yes. Of course. But no government will crack Kingdom requirements - until the King returns Oh and yes, hold power to account. Speak to it when it requires to be spoken to. The church down through the ages, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Tutu, etc etc spoke to power. Power hates it. We have to do it.

[@artdavida4197]

6-6-6 denotes 3 organizations that will be targeted at Armageddon: world governments-Financial empire-Religious Leaders( those who are complicit with the 1st two in creating injustice )

[@1754Me]

Rev 13:18--"This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, FOR IT IS THE NUMBER OF A MAN, and his number is 666." (emphasis added) This was a man that the original 1st Century reader could have calculated (gematria). Many scholars are led to believe it was Caesar Nero as his name calculated in Hebrew equals 666 ("NRON QSR" numerically represents the numbers 50 200 6 50 100 60 200, which add up to 666).

[@artdavida4197]

@@1754Me perhaps , "a man's number"

[@williamoarlock8634]

Being 'Christ-centered' which is of-the-world-but-not-in-it power serving as usual.

[@toadcj]

The irony here is that NT Wright believes the church is in a position to positively influence a fractured political landscape while it, itself, is hopelessly divided. How about tackling the mess in Church of England before taking on politics and politicians?

[@dynamicloveministries334]

I am a south african and was Dutch Reformed during apartheid. Toms take on this is not really accurately yet I get what he wants to say

[@justinpeterburford]

Big fan of Tom Wright, but the Kyle Rittenhouse reference was a category error. Abortion, and the protection of personal property in the absence of an appropriate state response to a riot, cannot be contrasted.

[@ExtraEcclesiamNullaSalus]

Lots of ridiculous psuedo-religious babble jardon.

[@johntobey1558]

You are talking to a man that dies ministry inside of a literal empire. He is ordained within an apostate State Religion. Unqualified to speak to the problem he has helped create.