Why are we here? Richard Swinburne vs Philip Goff hosted by Vince Vitale

Richard Swinburne and Philip Goff debate why are we here? Is it time we moved on from both God and Atheism, as Goff suggests in his new book Why? The Purpose of the Universe? Unbelievable Host Vince Vitale guides us through as Goff argues that the traditional God is a bad explanation of cosmic purpose. Instead, he explores a range of alternative possibilities for accounting for cosmic purpose, from the speculation that we live in a computer simulation to the hypothesis that the universe itself is a conscious mind.
Richard Swinburne is a Fellow of the British Academy, and has received honorary doctorates from three overseas universities. He was Professor of the Philosophy of Religion at the University of Oxford from 1985 until 2002. Since then he has continued to lecture extensively in many countries. He is best known for his trilogy on the philosophy of theism -The Coherence of Theism, The Existence of God, and Faith and Reason. Richard Swinburne and James Sterba are launching a new debate Why would a good God allow so much suffering? early in 2024.
Dr Philip Goff is Professor of Philosophy at Durham University. His research focuses on consciousness and the ultimate nature of reality. Goff is best known for defending panpsychism, the view that consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it.
Richard’s papers 'The existence of God', 'The problem of evil' are accessible on his website here, and his books are available here
Book: www.amazon.co.uk/Why-Purpose-...
Website: philipgoffphilosophy.com/
Podcast: / @mindchat
Social Media: / philip_goff
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[@daman7387]

great convo, please do another!

[@joshs2986]

Really enjoyed Vince's moderating. Ne really keen for him to moderate forever!

[@normaodenthal8009]

A very interesting discussion; really appreciate the good work done on this channel. The suggestion that God imposes suffering on us to achieve good outcomes completely misses the point. Every year at Christmas, we sing O, come Emmanuel, and Emmanuel means : God with us. God actually suffers with us, which constitutes the entire meaning of the cross. God does not sit somewhere out there as an observer of our actions, like Santa, who knows when we’ve been good or bad, so we had better be good so we can claim our gifts. This is a parody of Christianity. For the best book about God and the suffering in this world, that should more than adequately clarify things, see David Bentley Hart’s: The Doors Of The Sea, Where was God in the Tsunami. Better still, get David onto the program to address these issues. Better still, why not invite him as a guest to weigh in on these matters.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

It is evil for a god or for anyone else to force people or any other type of life form into the type of existence where they will suffer against their will and often times suffer horribly against their will because they might not want to suffer against their will at all and thats why it's evil to force them into existence.

[@holgerjrgensen2166]

Universe is a Life-Room/Space, for Living Beings, like our Body is Life-Room for a range of beings, from cell's to organs. 'Why are We here', because, We have always Been Here, We are the Eternal Here and Now. So, Universe and Our Body-universe, expose the Life-Unit-Principle.

[@MrBeautifulmountain]

Swinburne is a remarkable thinker but, given that he also looks very frail, I would get him back on sooner rather than later.

[@mr.c2485]

A god could have created us asexual without affecting free will. Many species are successfully asexual. Imagine the pain and suffering that would have been avoided in such a world. No rape, no sexual immorality, no conflict between couples I.e. divorce, no need for porn or sexual child abuse, no human trafficking, etc.etc.

[@rizalfie1]

But that would lead to our extinction 😢

[@pabloandres6179]

Sex in itself isn’t bad. Only when used in perverse ways is it bad and when it harms others or exploits them is it bad.

[@20july1944]

@Undalord let's chat here about the origin of living things or anyting else you want to discuss

[@TheEnderCycloneEnd]

I am an introductory biology student in college. I remember learning about the plasma membrane. I'm sure you're somewhat aware of it from school. The plasma membrane separates the inside and outside of a cell and is a universal cellular structure, but it isn't magic. The way it's arranged is with the hydrophilic heads on the outside (facing the water because water is polar) and the hydrophobic tails chains on the inside. This is all because of charge, with the hydrophilic molecules being arranged by the electric forces in a bilayer. Take a look at this video: "Bilayer formation through molecular self-assembly" It is only one minute long and shows the physics at play in a simple manner. We can also get into evolution if you'd like.

[@20july1944]

@@TheEnderCycloneEnd OK -- you have a "plasma membrane separates the inside and outside of a cell and is a universal cellular structure, but it isn't magic. The way it's arranged is with the hydrophilic heads on the outside" That's interesting and believable, but what else happens? That's not alive.

[@JohnSmith-bq6nf]

47:13 This is what I believe to be the best solution to the problem of suffering. Is that it is a category error. God isn't a moral agent like us.

[@thereignofthezero225]

The purpose of the universe is the potential to be and to become. Potential is the fundamental essence of existence. Its the one word that summarizes it best.

[@MrStaano]

Purpose of the universe is basically saying a god created the universe..... thats just ancient human mythical thought / explanation.

[@thereignofthezero225]

@@MrStaano what does that have to do with my comment?

[@MrStaano]

You say the universe has a purpose. You must think a god created it with a purpose in mind. Right?@@thereignofthezero225

[@MrStaano]

You believe a god exists? Yes?@@thereignofthezero225

[@godd226]

Potential refers to what could be. However, we already are. So the questions is, is everything here for a reason? If so, what is or could it be?

[@vilicus77]

What a silly question. There is no why--we just are here. Some feel uncomfortable with the truth, but discomfort doesn't dictate reality.

[@Insane_ForJesus]

There is no reason why you wrote this comment. You just did. There is no explanation for you writing this comment whatsoever. Some feel uncomfortable with this truth, but discomfort doesn't dictate reality.

[@loganleatherman7647]

@Insane_ForJesus Another comment section theist that can’t make a coherent argument because you didn’t even get the point of the comment in the first place. OP commented because that’s the topic of the video and comment sections generally entail engagement. That’s why they commented, and if you stopped to actually think for two seconds before vomiting some tripe into your own comment you’d see that your comment has absolutely nothing to do with the universe being ultimately purposeless or meaningless. As humans, we create and/or derive purpose and meaning on our own, like the engagement on this video

[@Insane_ForJesus]

@@loganleatherman7647 What you replied with was just as silly if not more silly than the OP. Neither you nor the OP gave a justification for brute facts that aren't arbitrary

[@karlmcallister218]

Regarding proof of other universes. I haven't yet heard a good answer to David Deutsch's point about the double slit experiment, namely that EVEN when electrons are shot one at a time through the double slit, the result is still an interference pattern. I.e. the electron seems to interfere with itself, as if it were passing through both slit at the same time. Yet we only measure 1 electron. I think this point needs an answer from those who would deny a multiverse.

[@Paine137]

What’s the evidence for a multiverse by way of that experiment. Quite the leap.

[@philipgoff7897]

If you're talking about the quantum 'many words' multiverse, that doesn't deal with fine-tuning, as all the branches are governing by the (fine-tuned) laws of physics. You could perhaps expand the theory to a more expansive multiverse to deal with fine-tuning, but that would run into the 'inverse gambler's fallacy' problem I discussed in the video.

[@karlmcallister218]

Hmmm? Thanks for the answer Philip. I will continue to think on the matter. @@philipgoff7897

[@pabloandres6179]

There is ZERO scientific evidence a multiverse exists, all you can do is form philosophical arguments for it

[@pabloandres6179]

@@philipgoff7897 ❤️❤️❤️

[@vgrof2315]

Regarding the fine-tuning argument, why would this God give us only a very thin atmosphere around a single, remote planet. Our life on this planet is very fragile. A random asteroid of an anomaly on the sun could completely wipe us all out in the blink of an eye. What purpose in that? The whole discussion is silly.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

I speculate that life and the laws of logic might be able to exist without requiring a creator. If it's perhaps possible that a god might be able to exist and have the law's of logic without requiring a creator then I don't have any reason to believe that any life forms absolutely have to have a creator in order to be able to exist and have the laws of logic. But I also speculate that aliens or perhaps a god or gods might exist and that it or they might have unfortunately put life on this planet. But I don't have the ability to be able to believe that any of my speculations are true unless they were proven to be true to me because I am only able to believe in the things that I become convinced of being true and real.

[@20july1944]

@senor Cinema: let's chat here about the origin of living things or anyting else you want to discuss

[@henkster6067]

@20 what do you believe?

[@SenorCinema]

you claimed it was obvious there was a designer. I don't believe that you can make such an inference based on what we know about life and its origin. you're the one making the claim that a) we were designed and b) there is a designer. prove your points

[@20july1944]

@@henkster6067 I think a Creator God designed and formed living things

[@20july1944]

@@SenorCinema Yes, things that can't be replicated by intellects can't have arisen without guidance. In all other spheres you would recognize that.

[@henkster6067]

Have either of you heard of the law of information?

[@iainrae6159]

Its curious those who believe in a supernatural God type being creator of the Universe, never ask ' why did God bother in the first place to create the Universe and whats his 'purpose' ?

[@SonlightNetworks]

As a person of faith, I greatly value the question ( “Why did God bother in the first place to create the Universe and what’s his 'purpose”) and can't imagine life without the answer. An observer of a painting, especially an amazing one, would likely wonder about the artist behind it. Honest questions can be fundamental both to finding answers and faith. Four of the most important questions for any human to consider are Meaning, Morality, Purpose, and Destiny. In other words: Why are we here? What are we here for? How should we conduct ourselves? What comes next? Personally, the Bible gives the most coherent answer I have found to these questions and has proved credible in the deepest trenches of life. Not because it leads to religion but to a relationship with the "Artist", the Author of life that changes life forever.

[@iainrae6159]

​@@SonlightNetworks Thankyou for your thoughtful comment. As a person of no supernatural religious belief, if the word God was replaced by ' nature ' then we have a similar view. Life is extremely rare in the Universe and we are indeed fortunate to experience it. Best wishes

[@dlbooneok]

If god as our benefactor can do with us as his will in our Earthly life, and therefore owes us an after life, then why do we need salvation ?

[@rizalfie1]

We need salvation to understand what the truth is. Without knowing pain, we cannot no love. Salvation is the path toward God and join with him in thoughts. It is the path that will guarantee Everlasting peace

[@dlbooneok]

@@rizalfie1 you missed my point. Swineburn said “ God owes us like our parents owe us. “ his arguments are so nonsensical he gets all tongue tied. But then I remember that Swineburn also said that the true victims of the Holocaust were the Nazis and the SS Officers, so his credibility is zero.

[@rizalfie1]

Yes your probably right, I don't agree that God is a benefactor, nor do I agree with him about a lot of his concepts about his concept of God. Thank you

[@Theomatikalli]

You all talking about the constants being just right for life. Here's a stupid yet deep question if you apply yourself. Is God/Angels/demons, life(i.e. a lifeform)? If yes then clearly these constants are not fundamentally necessary for life i.e. the soul etc. They are just important for the formation of the bodies where the soul resides. Therefore Life of a different form/embodiment could have arisen with different values of these constants. The fine tuning argument ignores this. The fine tuning argument is not a good argument.. It's got too many weak points and this is one of them.

[@Mr00000111]

10:35 Sir Richard you cannot know that it isn't the case

[@chuckm1961]

Question that presumes that it is using terms that are agreed upon, and that presumes there is An Answer to it. Both premises are flawed. Invalid question.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

If someone is currently enjoying their life it's not guaranteed that they will aways enjoy their life and that's why no one should ever have children because the children might not want to suffer against their will at all and that's why forcing them into the type of existence where they will suffer against their will and perhaps suffer horribly against their will is an evil thing to do to them. And since they will never exist then that's just fine because they will never know or care that they didn't exist. To force another life form into the type of existence where they will suffer against their will is an evil thing to do to them and to condone evil is to be evil.

[@p0indexter624]

13.7 billion years after the big bang complexity suddenly appears like Maxwell's demon in the form of life and consciousness all while the universe careens towards higher entropy.

[@rickjay2011]

As a former Christian, and an atheist, one thing I say is, there is no loving and merciful God, and if there is a God, he doesn't care about us. There is no divine intervention. If our Universe is "finely tuned" for life, then that's all this conscious infinite source is capable of.

[@bronjo9343]

Nobody gives a f. Formulate an argument if you have one.

[@daveyofyeshua]

If there was a God and infact a loving merciful one, what sort of reality would we expect to see?

[@betsyzimmerman5837]

Huh?

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

Yes, because being a former Christian gives you some special insight into the nature of reality!

[@loganleatherman7647]

@daveyofyeshua One with minimal suffering, or at the very least no suffering from natural events. There’s absolutely nothing loving about creating a world where tsunamis kill thousands of people in SE Asia every year for no reason. You can’t even attribute that to the sinful failings of humans because it’s not like humans cause natural disasters. That’s all God, if God even exists at all

[@EXISTENCE1891]

Goff's interview with Shermer on Sceptic is much better. Also everybody has forgotten about the fine tuning at molecular level. "The signature in the cell" Meyer

[@tweetiebirdism]

Why do we need children with cancer to help us adults make better choices?

[@aggonzalez8096]

I think this has been said before, but it seems that any question which can be asked of anything is probably the wrong question. Still fun to talk about though

[@Theomatikalli]

I'd argue that if I'm building a mansion for my family .. It would make no sense for me to claim that the mansion was for my family if 50 of the 51 rooms were painted in lead and radioactive material such that they could only live in one of the rooms. Even in the one room, the beds have spikes in them making it hard to sleep in the beds. Anyone with common sense would say that the mansion clearly has a different purpose i.e. it's not for my family. This is the same with the universe.. If we place you in 99% of the locations in the entire universe you die (Jupiter, Pluto, space etc.). If the universe was made for humans we'd be able to live in more places.. If a mansion is built for your family, they should be able to go into more of the rooms without dying. Additionally in the one room that man can live in i.e. earth, if you sleep outside by mistake in winter you could literally die, there's earthquakes, tsunamis volcanoes etc. (i.e. spikes). This too does not point to a wise fine-tuner that has build the universe for humans .. in the very least only the tardigrades can claim that the universe is build for them since they can survive more places and the humans are once again caught up in their own hubris of thinking they are the centre of the universe. Fine tuning is evidence against God.

[@thereignofthezero225]

Interesting way of putting it, but nah

[@Theomatikalli]

@@thereignofthezero225 Thanks for reading. Why are you still unconvinced?

[@thereignofthezero225]

@Theomatikalli because the universe clearly functions in a way which allows the evolution of creative consciousness. Without that the universe itself wouldn't have any actual meaning. You could argue that even this planet wasn't designed to be able to sustain life, yet over the span of time it has managed to organize itself in such a way as to allow for ever greater biodiversity. Seems life plays a crucial role in the process. Ths abiotic was succeeded by the biotic, and from there emerged the creative lifeforms. That's what happened and that's what was meant to happen in a universe that enables it to be.

[@Theomatikalli]

@thereignofthezero225 You do realize that the ones adapting are the organisms not the earth or the universe? Also what you call life is currently a murder show of carnage.. No good God creates a world of such carnage.. every "living" organism has to kill another living organism to live.. A good God wouldn't have needed that much death just for sustainance. All this points to natural evolution to fit an environment. If a world was created by a kind God then things like breathing and eating wouldn't hv been necessary nor organs like eyes etc. These are all evolved traits for surviving in an environment. The soul does not fundamentally need all these traits.

[@MG-ot2yr]

Why does the universe need a purpose? It can't exist without a purpose? Sounds like a mighty big assumption.

[@SantiagoAaronGarcia]

Why even bother asking that if everything is meaningless? Just imagine saying "your life has no meaning" to somebody. Imagine it's your family, your friends or a stranger.. that would be so rude. Why would it be weird for people to believe that life is not an accident? Isnt' it meaningful to love others, do what is good and just, and give your life for others? If not, well... without love we are nothing.

[@MG-ot2yr]

@@SantiagoAaronGarcia It isn't about your feelings, its about reality.

[@SantiagoAaronGarcia]

@@MG-ot2yr You can say my life is meaningless and I would not even care. What I'm saying is that you are not like that with the people you love and care for. You find value in the lives of the people you love. You can talk about reality as if you were omniscient, but deep down you are socratic and you know that the only thing you actually know is nothing. How do you know that life is meaningless? Which method do you follow to arrive to that conclusion? Come on, man. Just think of the things you are saying. Talking about knowing the true nature of reality in a youtube comment section. Not even the best scientists or philosophers dare to say they know everything. But you claim to know what 'reality' is, and claim that there is no purpose. I won't even bother asking you how you get to that conclusion. I really wish you the best, and I'm sorry for that kind of nihilism you believe. Your life has meaning, and more than a ton of value. Every life has meaning. I hope you see it one day. Have a nice day

[@MG-ot2yr]

@@SantiagoAaronGarcia I never said I knew, I just asked the question, what if the universe has no purpose? Then you got all emotional about it. I don't think people need some feel good made up stories like they are children. There's no reason to believe there's some higher purpose, and I'm not willing to just adopt some feel good story because I don't like reality. So until its proven otherwise, I'll stick with just not knowing, nor believing in some higher being that there's no evidence of. And why can't life have meaning even though the universe may not have meaning? Just reflect throughout history, all the people who helped future generations through innovation, research and discovery. That has meaning, being part of the evolutionary chain of life has meaning. Being a good citizen has meaning. So what if it isn't eternal.

[@Paine137]

Humans make up their own meaning, not the Universe. Stop being enslaved children.

[@ROForeverMan]

The purpose of the universe is God knowing itself. We are all one and the same God knowing itself. For more details see my papers about consciousness, like "Meaning and Context: A Brief Introduction", author: Cosmin Visan.

[@Paine137]

How slave of you.

[@sysprogmanadhoc2785]

YAWN

[@Theactivepsychos]

Nothing. There’s no human style purpose. We’re just part of the mayhem. Enjoy it.

[@Theactivepsychos]

And don’t be a dick

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

The problem with the argument for the existence of the omnigod is the resulting necessity of that god wholly owning every single thing and event that takes place in that god's universe. An artist owns every daub of paint in his painting. Same thing for the relationship between the omnigod and the universe. Every bit of suffering. Every bit of triumph over suffering. Everything about the universe would be planned. Would be intended. Calvin would be correct. This may be the most horrendous mental model of reality humans have ever come up with. [shudder]

[@treytaylor1511]

Would it be outside of the capabilities of such a being to create similar beings that have self-agenecy that allows them to reflect the freedom of "the artist"?

[@JohnCook-om3iq]

Apologist like to think or even sure that they can explain everything using beliefs in mystersism without putting the work in studying science and understanding the honesty of the scientific method. I find educated broardcasters as is demonstrates in this programm bewitched by and are reduced as scholars by not balacing the efficacy of the methods of good science and the absolute poverty of belief without evidence for what they consider as a legitimate field of study.

[@rizalfie1]

Quantum physics, is the science for things we can not physically see, but we can measure. Frequencies and energy are very important features of the scientific field that often leads to this so called mysticism

[@Philusteen]

The meaning of your life is but s simple sum of two: what it means to others, and what it means to you. - me

[@princessarabia3946]

Having no purpose is still a purppse. Just like having no beliefs is just a belief of having no beliefs. Same difference. Or saying there is no God. Youre still saying there's a God that doesnt exist.

[@RLBays]

I can’t tell if you’re being serious 😅

[@20july1944]

How did the universe begin? How did living things arise?

[@princessarabia3946]

@@20july1944 God is everything. God is appearing as everything. Consciousness. The Universe has no beginning and no end. It's a dream.

[@20july1944]

@@princessarabia3946 Shrug. You're a waste of time.

[@sysprogmanadhoc2785]

In trying to sound smart, they made themselves sound stoopid

[@majm9309]

1. The idea of a "middle ground" between belief (theism) and non-belief (atheism) is just logically _wrong._ 2. Purpose implies design intent, but the entire problem is we have no evidence of an intent like that. 3. _"Explained"_ should be a red flag word to anyone listening to conversations like this, because the wrong explanation still technically is an explanation. Yet if truth is our goal only _the correct explanation_ should satisfy. Well we don't know the correct explanation for every question facing us -- not even close. We should be honest and admit when things are unknown (and most importantly: _not to believe in those ideas until after we have evidence._ ). Atheism is broadly just non-belief in a god. That means it isn't a claim, so it can't be true. That means it _involves no claims,_ so it can't "explain" anything. It's just the rational position to hold when we don't have evidence of a god. (Currently we don't have evidence.) If that doesn't make sense, imagine how nonsensical it sounds when I ask you what your non-belief in leprechauns _does for you._ It does nothing. It's just that some people think leprechauns exist, yet nobody has evidence, so nobody knows they exist, so we shouldn't believe in them. That's as far as it goes. It doesn't provide any elements of a worldview.

[@pauljackson9413]

1. Definitions can be correct or incorrect dependent on context. In many contexts, your definition of atheism as lack of belief in theism is obviously correct. But it is incorrect in the context of academic philosophy of religion (of which this discussion is a part), simply because philosophers of religion do not use it that way. Philosophers of religion use the term non-theist to refer to anyone who lacks a belief in theism, and they use the term atheism to refer to someone who specifically believes God does not exist. Thus there are several ‘middle ground’ positions one could take between theism and atheism: the position that the existence of God is unknowable, the position that the weight of evidence roughly balances, etc. But Goff’s own ‘middle ground’ position is a bit different. He denies the existence of an essentially omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly free, and eternal being which Swinburne accepts. He also denies (as I understand, haven’t read his book yet) that arguments for atheism rule out a non-omniGod or something like that (cosmopsychism?) as many atheists would claim. So, he reasonably describes his position as ‘middle ground’ 2. Well that is exactly what Swinburne and Goff are trying to do…provide evidence of purpose/design/intent. The question is whether they are successful. 3. I am sure that Swinburne and Goff are in agreement with your point here.

[@majm9309]

@@pauljackson9413 They don't provide evidence of the reason(s) for the universe being the way it is. That's what would be required to go from (a) _an_ explanation to (b) _knowing the right explanation involves an intelligence/designer/tuner._ For example there's a part where he suggests the universe is fine tuned for life. Meanwhile as far as we know life can live in much less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003% of our universe. (That's someone's estimate of the *volume* of the Earth relative to the universe. Volume. Meaning we can't live inside the Earth, so the actual number is considerably smaller than that because we only live on the crust, and only 1/3rd of the crust that isn't ocean (and the slightly smaller portion that isn't desert/arctic).) Contrast that against actually designed universes, like the videogames we make where characters like Mario can travel to and live basically everywhere (he can't jump to the top of the screen, so maybe we'll cautiously say 50%?). So 50% vs. that ridiculously small number. So to me fine tuning arguments are such a joke that I'm surprised anyone is even remotely convinced by them. None of this rules out a designer of course, but the idea that things were designed for life (or for humans specifically) is just ridiculous.

[@pauljackson9413]

@@majm9309 I think you make an interesting point here. Whether a fine tuning argument can work, I am honestly not sure. But I personally do not take alleged fine tuning to be a joke. This is just because there are people I judge to be very smart and well informed who do take fine tuning seriously, such as Goff, Swinburne, Mike Huemer, and more. I don’t consider myself at all well informed on the topic, but it is an area of interest for me, so I’ll be looking to study it rigorously in the future. Cheers

[@philipgoff7897]

1. I use 'theism' to mean belief in the omni-God and 'atheism' to mean denial of any kind of cosmic purpose. Clearly there's a middle ground between these two options. 2. Obviously I take the fine-tuning as evidence for cosmic purpose. 3. I think talk of 'explanation' in this context is just a loose way of referring to Bayesian evidence for a hypothesis. Does it bother you that no academic philosopher defending atheism defines 'atheism' in this way?

[@majm9309]

@@philipgoff7897 1. Wouldn't misusing terms that badly only result in miscommunication? Theism is well-established to mean belief in any god(s). Atheism is slightly less clear-cut because while most dictionaries define it as disbelief or lack of belief, at least one philosophical dictionary defined it as the position 'there is no god' (so just disbelief). To come in with completely new definitions seems like you _want_ to miscommunicate (which people generally only knowingly do if their goal is deception). 2. What cosmic purpose? It can't be life, because as covered slightly later: we've seen universes designed for life and their life can survive almost everywhere, but in our universe we only know of life living in less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000003% of the universe, which is a staggeringly low percent. (That's an estimation of the volume of the Earth relative to the universe, and we can't live inside the Earth's volume, so the actual number is smaller still.) The majority of times I explicitly say "non-belief" (sometimes not mentioning atheism at all), so (a) how I'm using the term is always crystal clear, and (b) when you google "atheism", you get a summary, _"Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities,"_ and that's what the majority of people mean when they're using the term.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

The purpose of life to me is to prevent suffering and that's why I didn't have kids.

[@rl7012]

Suffering is part of life, it is unavoidable.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

@@rl7012 since I didn't have children they will never suffer against their will and they will never have children and so their children will never suffer against their will and they will never cause other life forms that do exist to suffer against their will. And that's why not having children is so great.

[@rl7012]

@@AnonymousWon-uu5yn I don't have children either and I don't think it is great at all. Children are a blessing. You don't speak for all childless people in your views. I know you are not claiming to but I just want to put the other side of the childless view out there. I could be wrong, but it comes across as if you think it is virtuous not to have kids.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

@@rl7012 to force children into the type of existence where they will suffer against their will and often times suffer horribly against their will is an evil thing to do to them because they might not want to suffer against their will at all. Look up, mr antinatalist.

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

@@rl7012 it is good to not have kids, very good.

[@tedgrant2]

The visible universe is about 93 billion light years in diameter. So it could not have been created in 5 days !

[@briankelly5828]

Not by Frenchmen, certainly.

[@RLBays]

Well, there is no "purpose" of the Universe. Kind of a weird question actually.

[@Dino_LIVE_]

Does that statement have “purpose”

[@RLBays]

@@Dino_LIVE_ to me it does. It can have purpose for you as well if you want it to. Otherwise no.

[@Dino_LIVE_]

@@RLBays well since there is no purpose in the universe, then there is no purpose for you, and no purpose for your statement.

[@rob-890]

​@@Dino_LIVE_Christian logic trying their best

[@rob-890]

​@Dino_LIVE_ the intellectual equivalent of "no you're the one getting upset"

[@Philusteen]

Swinburne's argument can be paraphrased as "god is not man-made, but he has a gender and his sctions clearly are all sligned with how the humanity experiences the world. He seems very thoughtful and kind, and has grown a garden of Eden around his massive blind spot. Sir, your arguments are just not good, and i am hopeful that you will continue to scrutinize them thoughtfully. (P.S. - the fine-tuning argument was killed by science (religion's heir to the throne of truth-seeking) a long time ago. We just have to keep talking about it brcause the corpse is fertilizing the aformentioned garden.

[@TBOTSS]

WHAT????

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

Whether the universe has purpose or not, we have enough evidence to conclude that the Jeesus story is completely bogus

[@user-ch4ex3yy4l]

What'a the #1 reason it is completely bogus?

[@zhengfuukusheng9238]

We can show it was a Roman invention, demonstrating they had motive means and opportunity to create him. We can further show evidence of links between real world events that can be verified outside the bible, and link these with gospel passages, thus giving clear evidence that the gospels were written for a socio-political agenda

[@user-ch4ex3yy4l]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238 A Roman invention with hoards of prophecies in the Jewish Bible with great accuracy predicting the coming of Christ? I don't buy it.

[@pabloandres6179]

@@zhengfuukusheng9238yeah… ur retarded

[@Csio12]

Whose we. Itd be good if u named your sources. Most biblican historians even atheist ones eg B Ehrmann agree jesus existed and was crucified but do not believe the rest. Even jewish biblical scholars agree he lived and was crucified.

[@Theomatikalli]

Why are we still mentioning fine tuning in 2023.. It's an obsolete argument with flawed premises.

[@TheCrossingBall]

You're mentioning it too?

[@LogosTheos]

Read Jason Waller's book on Fine-tuning and get back at me

[@rl7012]

Not obsolete at all. Premises are sound but its just atheists have no answer to it except an infinite number of multiverses which is ridiculous.

[@Theomatikalli]

@rl7012 This argument is routed in people being bad at math and not understanding probability.. you can not say something is unlikely when you don't know the total number of ways that it can occur.. If Magnus Carlsen is playing a chess game just because there are a billion possible chess moves, it doesn't mean that it's unlikely that he'll see a mate in one. Because of Magnus' nature of being a great chess player, it is highly likely that he can see a mate in one regardless of the existence of the billion possible moves.. In the same way, due to the universe's nature, it is possible that a universe constant could only be the value it is, making its probability 1. If you mix hydrogen and oxygen, an ignorant person might posit that there are an unlimited number of compounds that can be formed, but a person who knows chemistry knows that it will most certainly form water.. if you choose to keep saying it's unlikely that it will form water, then you are just being unreasonable.

[@Theomatikalli]

@LogosTheos while I'm at it can you google, puddle analogy

[@whitespacebug]

As usual I find Swinburne repulsive. He pushes people into one of two categories - saints, or evil. This is frankly disgusting, has Swinburne met any actual people?

[@tosafmj_dotcom]

Thank you for that interesting discussion. What is the purpose of reality? Consider the correspondence theory of truth. Facts in reality are described by statements that are true. So the purpose of reality is to be a representation of truth. The end goal of reality is to perfectly express the character of truth. And what is the nature of truth? The nature of truth is to overcome any and every attempt to negate it. We prove that things are true and reliable by trying to assert the assumption that it is not. And when this assumption proves false because it leads to a contraction, then that proves the original truth-claim. All physical theories gain credibility by overcoming every attempt to falsify them. All consumer products are verified by still operating even after worst case testing. So if there is any purpose to reality it is to manifest entities that represent the truth. And this is verified by those entities overcoming every attempt to negate them. If people are those entities that will represent the truth, then we should expect that there come at least one person that will overcome the worst possible attempt to destroy him,... by rising from the dead.

[@rob-890]

Is the propose Jesus? That always seems to be the answer here 😂

[@brendabeamerford4555]

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[@20july1944]

How did the universe begin? How did living things arise?

[@rob-890]

@20july1944 I don't know and you don't either. Even if you grant a god that doesn't get you to Jesus.

[@20july1944]

@@rob-890 First things first: do you think there is a Creator God>?

[@mikebrigandi_]

@@20july1944 the universe didnt begin, life is chemical process