Understanding Autism with Sir Simon Baron-Cohen (Professor, University of Cambridge)

In this episode, we speak with Sir Simon Baron-Cohen about autism. Simon is a Professor in the Departments of Psychology and Psychiatry at the University of Cambridge and the Director of the Autism Research Centre. He is also the author of over 600 peer-reviewed scientific articles and many books, including most recently ‘The Pattern Seekers’. Recently knighted, he is also the Vice-President of the National Autistic Society and a National Institute of Health Research Senior Investigator.
During our conversation, Simon sheds light on key topics surrounding autism, helping to demystify common misconceptions and provide a deeper understanding. We delve into essential discussions about diagnosis, intervention timelines, communication variances, and the spectrum of functionality among individuals with autism.
Whether you’re directly affected by autism or simply wish to broaden your knowledge on the matter, this episode offers valuable insights and understanding directly from a leading expert in the field.
Host: Brent Franson, Founder & CEO, Most Days
Guest: Dr. Simon Baron-Cohen
Music: Patrick Lee
Producer: Patrick Godino

[@JazzSinger8]

I can't believe what what that man said. Seriously!? You should only get a diagnosis of autism if there's evidence of disability!? It's so disheartening to hear someone who's an expert on autism make a statement like that. Kudos to the interviewer for the excellent followup question about people getting a diagnosis for the purpose of better understanding themselves. That question was totally deflected, by the way. As a late diagnosed autistic person, getting a formal diagnosis was quite literally life changing. I don't consider myself to be disabled, and I don't require any special accommodations. What the diagnosis did for me was help me to understand myself so much better. I have more self confidence, and I'm more at peace with with who I am. So much about my life makes sense now. There's absolutely value in an autism diagnosis even if you don't need special accommodations.

[@chriscoombes2871]

100% agree with this statement!

[@cherylyoke4872]

It’s good your diagnosis gave you more self confidence. A lack in adequate confidence can lead to depression.

[@maggamold]

Ditto! Knowing yourself is a human right! Getting the autism diagnosis, even late, is like getting a manual for live.

[@seaglasscolor]

It’s important to note that many people do not run into difficulty functioning until they are well into their adult years….in their 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s. This can affect their confidence and success in the workplace, and if they have no idea they are autistic, this would be extremely distressing to them - which could lead to suicidality. I have to wonder how many adult suicides are committed by people who have undiagnosed autism.

[@rozaucja8612]

Exactly, we need to know what language we speak so that others can learn how to speak our language as well! I am for diagnosis. Not sure why professor discourages from that and why people have to pay money to get a diagnosis.

[@boxer_puncher]

I was diagnosed with ADHD and have very strong autistic traits. I meet the cut-offs on AQ, EQ, RME etc. I might get the Asperger diagnosis (doesn't exist anymore) if I were to be examined. I function, yeah, but I have to take 3 pills, sometimes 4 a day. It's not easy, it's not. The depressions, anxiety, social life, lack of motivation, even the simplest things, even the mundane everyday life etc., I could go all day... I can't be around people longer than 1 hour, I can't, it becomes unbearable! Not that I have social phobia or sth., I just can't, it's an extreme cognitive burden! I have problems in social life, mimic, gestures. I'm ok with basics but it becomes impossible if it gets complicated. I have no autopilot, I must 24/7 systemize, organize, optimize. Issues with self confidence, executive dysfunction, emotional dysregulation, I could go on and on... That's why I don't agree with Prof. Cohen. Just because someone functions doesn't mean that he doesn't suffer (enough). I must bust my .ss for even the simplest things that a neurotypical effortlessly can. Believe me, it's fu.king hard!

[@statstrange9141]

A question I'd like to hear asked of autism researchers is how big is the undiagnosed autistic population compared to the diagnosed? I suspect the undiagnosed population is much, much larger. If so, then the statistics about autism and co-morbidities cannot be taken seriously. This is because autistic children with co-morbidities are more likely to draw attention and be diagnosed than ones without.

[@edwardbrett6133]

thoughrally enjoyed this as a late and in process of diagnosis autistic person. Thankyou, I have always been interested in SBC since learning of his development of the aq test and of course his famouse cousin - both things are really interesting and he comes accross really really lovely and informative - great questions and interviewer - thankyou! (I say in between randomly crying from a now 4 year burnout!)

[@OlklamiteMe-lt4qv]

Thank you!!!!!❤️

[@7missy7]

Dr. Baron-Cohen is a man with such a wealth of information about autism. I love the research and work he has done in this field. Thank you for helping me understand my son's experience in this neurotypical world.

[@rozaucja8612]

I disagree with doctor's discouragement of obtaining the diagnosis. "Are they interfering with your ability to function." Another question that could be asked if if they arw interfering with others ability to functuon with you. If you get into a relationship with someone who was hiding the fact that they are on the autism spectrum, you have lost a roadmap that could help with navigating that relationship. Diagnosis is important so that people can try to speak each others language. In order to do that they first need to know each others language.

[@ButterflyonStone]

Yes, that would meet the definition of interfering with your ability to function since it means you aren't able to maintain relationships - from whose perspective is irrelevant for the purpose of diagnosis - if it is impacting your relationships to a significant degree that would be a flag in favour of needing a diagnosis. I think people are misunderstanding what is being said - if you are high in autistic traits or features (as they are common throughout the population) and it is not impacting your ability or well-being (i.e. if you had never heard of Autism, you would have continued merrily on through life) you do not need to waste £1000's and clinical time on a diagnosis. By definition having level 1 needs - suggests that it is impacting on your life to a somewhat significant degree so it wouldn't apply to you - if you came to his clinical with level 1 needs he would give a diagnosis - if you did not (i.e. had no discernable impact he wouldn't) - this does not stop people of learning about themselves, communicating their needs, joining communities, changing their lifestyle or receiving help for other issues.

[@michaelsohnen6526]

Beautiful video. But you do not know how long it took me to realize Simon is not Sasha? Im like, what does borat have to do with autism?

[@hyperben1985]

I’m amazed that someone as knowledgable about Autism as Simon Baren-Cohen questions whether Elon Musk is Autistic because of how he presents himself. Has he never heard of masking or compensatory strategies? I’m not saying Elon Musk is or isn’t Autistic, but he of all people should know you can’t judge that based on how they present themselves.

[@BFKAnthony817]

Yes, this guy is related to Sasha Baron-Cohen.

[@RichardTasgal]

Set aside the degree that an individual manifests various autistic traits for a moment. What makes one call a trait an autistic trait? Is there something common to all those traits, or is there arbitrariness in it?

[@LucaC2626]

I have a nephew with autism and he has very violent outbursts and needs medication for that. I didn’t think that was unusual

[@McQuizzical]

I can't believe Prof Baron-Cohen just said, "we all have autistic traits" (time 20:40)

[@annettemareiafischer6828]

why not? ...For me, every child is gifted...👏👏👏

[@TOAOM123]

He is correct. Because having an autistic trait doesnt mean youre autistic

[@annamunoz8047]

I agree with him... when you read and learn how the brain works.. it all makes sense

[@deon5329]

Great interview but I think it’s absurd for the guest to suggest only the most visibly affected pple should have access to diagnosis. In the US there are already so many barriers to diagnosis and services even for the most affected pple. There is no evidence to suggest gatekeeping it further improve outcomes. Removing diagnosis for low support needs autistics also runs the risk of negatively effecting mental health. Low support needs autistics often have less visible disabilities or challenges that can be met with accommodations, self awareness, or cognitive behavior therapy. Finally, some non autistics may exhibit overlap in traits with diagnosed individuals but it’s important to note the frequency, intensity, and pervasiveness of how those traits affect autistics. We all aren’t a little autistic. The underlying reasons behind those traits are often the product of necessary self soothing measures in response to social and sensory challenges.

[@ButterflyonStone]

This is where it all falls down, you don't want gatekeeping but then you gatekeep by drawing lines where there are no solid lines between people who have lots of autistic traits but aren't negatively affected by them and people who have them and are. You literally repeated what he said but in your own words. So do you still disagree with him?

[@AllYourMemeAreBelongToUs]

18:19 “A person shouldn’t get the diagnosis of autism unless there’s evidence of disability.”

[@lindaclairesartori]

oh the hat. please

[@gonzaloivanquinolarico]

For me that differentiation between autistics is just explained by the development of the higher jerarchy neurons and connections. For those who are more functional, that space in charge of refining thoughs regulate impulses analyze for multiple information sources in parallel and at a faster speed is greater or better developed. They may struggle with other impairments but can camouflage better in contrast to those more severely affected. In contrast to those more severe affected that struggle even suppressing impulsive actions according to the situation being this role of those higher connections giving you an better understanding and control. This improved space can be visualized as a giant canvas where recurrent information like short-term memory, imagination, and fast processing for multiple inputs are stored. Individuals with reduced space feel anxiety in environments filled with sensory stimuli, social interactions, and inner thinking, leading them to disassociate or employ escape mechanisms. Lying effectively for example requires considering original facts, matching others' thinking, and imagining possible scenarios rapidly, which can be challenging for autistic individuals due to limitations in this space. They may compensate with extra time for thinking but may struggle in complex scenarios and shouldnt be confused with not being autistic. This space is also in charge of organization, you can previsualize what is more likely to happen in your environment addressing multiple information at the same time and act accordingly being this the reason why they may struggle at planning multitasking and basically most complex tasks that again if given a lot more time they can find a way to achieve something similar maybe drawing on the air or in a paper so they use that sheet as they lacking part to refine thoughs. Not sure about if this could be the reason why some autistic people have problems tracking time, body space, internal regulators like temperature tones and others since the brain may be aware of its limited amount of conscious control it tends to prioritize and neglect some functions and in non verbal cases they can just think what they want but can't combine that with actual vocalization so they or write or use visual aids or gestures since they dont need much thinking on how to transform ideas or requirements into words or sentences. The improved memory is also explained given that the part of the brain involved in long term memory is better developed so they use that instead and with time they get a better at using it sadly this part is not near as fast and cant be used for refining and understanding just to save facts that you previously worked in the short term one like a snapshot of your interpretation so they keep talking the samr things on just one topic(key-content) similar to improved senses for blind people just an adaptation mechanism for the lack of the other. For the focus thing just in one topic is explained aswell for the limited space. Like a key storage to access long term memory, they just can save a unique or limited amount of keys for depper knowledge and well they just keep talking about the same topic is the only path pre-built to long term memory and if asked to change topic will take more effort and more time to delete some of the previous topic from short term to make space in contrast to neurotipicals that just can save a lot more keys for different topics and also keep alert on all body signals autistics just keep optimizing their little limited capacity this would also explain like for patterns or simpler concepts refine information in the outside before analizing inside the brain reducing complexity gives more space for additional information or thinking. Really sad hope to see a real treatment that aims to this undeveloped area and don't rely on pet training ABA or sedative drugs or cannabis common why I mean are we really helping or just silencing them not addressing the root cause of the symptoms won't get us far Improving quality of live for this community.

[@Violetta683]

It is an extremely dispiriting to hear a supposed preeminent expert on autism stating that one shouldn’t get a diagnosis unless they have a disability. Define disability for one thing and who gets to decide how to frame those parameters? Secondly, why would anyone be seeking a diagnosis in the first place unless they are experiencing difficulties? Diagnosis is financially and logistically challenging pretty much everywhere in the world. The suggestion that anyone is frivolously seeking out a diagnosis as some sort of navel gazing exercise is a dangerous supposition. Does he get his information from the trolls on TikTok? Using Elon Musk as an example is disingenuous too. Putting aside the fact that he is an anomoly in the population, another assumption is being made about Musk’s private mental health. Does Baron-Cohen pretend to know anything beyond the public persona of an individual. That’s just insane. Most importantly, it seems that Baron-Cohen is ignoring one piece of data that he should instead be focusing on. As anyone in this field should be - lowered average life expectancy and self h4rm. The fact that the rates of self h4rm are increased in high masking autistic females who are WITHOUT intellectual disability, completely contradicts his point. Disappointing.

[@maxpower3328]

being autistic is not a part of a person, i must be missing something, i never knew where i end and "the autism" begins?

[@annenittis6506]

Because we don’t know /or can’t measure easily the ‘level’ of certain traits/ levels of abilities that we all do or do not have that go on to then make up a measure of what it is to have Autism. Ie. If a person who does have Autism and may for example have different mannerisms such as clapping when excited, not like being in crowds or around a lot of noise etc. then this is often seen as coming from exhibiting ‘Autistic Traits’ yet there are many in the general population who hate being in crowded places and further can’t be in or don’t like hearing noise or being in noisy spaces - however, having the same traits/ behaviours etc. doesn’t, by itself, doesn’t make a person one thing or the other ; just merely human.

[@annamunoz8047]

Being autistic is a condition... a gay person is gay, a Chinese person is Chinese... autism is not something you can choose or remove from you.. it is you, part of you...

[@safetyfirst111]

In disbelief at the take on who should qualify for a diagnosis. Are we really going back to the "everyone is a little autistic" era. Diagnosis is an important part of mentally identifying as Autistic to other people, and if its only the people who are really struggling identifying this way, then broadly speaking people will view Autism as a problem. Yet Sir Simon Baron-Cohen speaks about how its a difference sometimes, a strength it would be reasonable to infer. And seeing Autism as a problem rather than a potential strength as well, could be what is largely responsible for the Autistic population being severely unemployed, yet have some of the best problem solving abilities around, what an untapped resource societally speaking that is, all for the sake of a dimmer lightbulb, or please don't move my seat without consulting with me first or don't be offended if I want to spend lunch alone, perhaps not societally disabled per say, but certainly not being allowed to fulfil their potential, all because people at large view Autism through this very narrow lense of disability, as opposed to everything else it has to offer. And what about the genetic differences, the research on the grey/white matter ratios, possibly explaining the difficulties with switching tasks and transitions, the enlarged fear centre present in Temple Grandin's brains scan for example. But we're proposing that Autism should more than likely come with an intellectual impairment of some description to receive a formal diagnosis? This is last decade stuff. I thought that's what the levels were for, Asperger's, now Autism level 1, no? Have I missed the point somewhere? I think successful Autistic people like Elon Musk are possible role models for other Autistic people, not everyone obviously, but there should be range of role models available because success is defined and measured differently, so different role models are required, and they can be of immense use to people who are struggling, they can be a rough map out of there, and shouldn't have the opportunity to receive a formal diagnosis because of some over simplified need to decide who should have access to support or not, we can be more nuanced in our decision making than that. That's a procedural administrative problem, it shouldn't touch the psychological or cultural landscape at all if avoidable.

[@McQuizzical]

He's also come full circle in blaming the mother again too! Identical twins do NOT have 100% Identical DNA!

[@JonBrase]

​@@McQuizzicalBy definition identical twins have the same DNA. The correlation between identical twins for the presence of (diagnosed) autism isn't perfect (as he mentions), but it's very high. *But* the correlation between identical twins that both have autism on how it presents and what traits are present is fairly low (which probably explains why you'll sometimes have one twin diagnosed and the other not).

[@Robc--jd6yh]

Did you watch it? He did not say everyone is a bit autistic. He said everyone has some autistic traits.

[@safetyfirst111]

Very interesting, are you saying that this might suggest that both likely have autism, and it is far more genetic than we currently understand, but our understanding of how it presents is limited, and potentially influenced by a range of factors that exist out with genetics? @@JonBrase

[@user-vl2qz7cn5v]

I smiled at yr manner in not closing thought grabs, many commas, paragraphic, like Celine or Proust. Sometimes with being Aspy, you need to get off the stool to communicate

[@resurrectingexcellence]

Your content quality is good, however your branding is incorrect. You should have more fans by now. You need to do a complete revamp of your branding - naming, colour palette, thumb nails, video titles etc.

[@lindaclairesartori]

i cannot watch a grown man with a backward ball cap on his head