Understanding Mormonism - Tracing Woodgrains | Maiden Mother Matriarch 109

[@maidenmothermatriarch]

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[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Ok, I think we tied on this round, of converting/de-converting.

[@Leepal1969]

I am English and an atheist but have been to Salt Lake City a couple of times (my company headquarters is there). Almost everyone I met there was polite and friendly so I'm reluctant to criticise Mormons really. Very nice people generally.

[@garypalmer1122]

I've heard this a lot. Not sure about their religion though...

[@actionjtp]

I have listened to many of your excellent podcasts and have often thought that it would be great to interview a contemporary LDS woman.

[@kathleendoodles698]

There are a lot to choose from!

[@bradrtorgersen_videos]

If ever you want to talk to an LDS member, born and raised, married 31+ years to someone who is an adult convert, so as to get the flip side of the "ex" coin, I am available. I am also a subscriber, if that helps. 😊

[@danielmaher964]

I'll watch

[@bigthangz5489]

im also a subscriber & would love to hear this viewpoint of an adult convert into mormonism. please interview her luiose.

[@alliel5160]

Lifelong member, too! I emailed Louise and she personally replied. even though she is in maternity leave, she took the time to reply, and was very gracious. She had a baby a few weeks ago.

[@danielmaher964]

@@alliel5160 bless her

[@grunnionyon7655]

I hope she takes you up on it! Would love to hear your POV.

[@danielf10001]

Now that you have done this interview with a person that has left the church I think it would be very balanced to interview someone that is currently active in the church just to give a different perspective

[@HeroOfTime331]

Agreed!

[@bradrtorgersen_videos]

Concur 100%.

[@MarySmilodon]

Louise please interview Jacob from @Thoughtful Faith on this. He will be able to explain so much better.

[@brianthomassen2209]

If the goal is "Understanding Mormonism" why discuss a faith with someone who has left it? If the goal is to understand a belief set X, there can be the perspective of an ex-member, but if that isn't balanced with the counter position then things appear either as agenda ridden or simply intellectually sloppy.

[@amurdo4539]

Trace has somehow become the "Mormon" to talk to in these circles. He has made the rounds. He is far from the worst ex-Mormon out there, although he usually mischaracterizes and oversimplifies LDS history and beliefs, including about race and sexuality.

[@brianthomassen2209]

@@amurdo4539 Thanks for the reply. I don't know the fellow. I listened to the podcast and found it wanting on a multitude of levels, not the least of which being his myopic Utah Mormon experience. I still find it odd the podcaster would opt for such a skewed presenter as a representative for a faith. The default for any even semi-academic modeling of a thing under question is to follow the principle of charity. I am not referring to the virtue, but the posture of initially steel manning the thing under scrutiny.

[@amurdo4539]

@@brianthomassen2209 Agreed, but in reality the great majority of interviews about Mormonism outside LDS circles involve ex-Mormons. Just watch any number of Christian KZbin channels. They almost always interview ex-Mormons. I am not sure that Louise Perry is that interested in actually learning about LDS beliefs. I think she probably came across Trace and found him interesting. I know he has been on the based camp channel and Alex Kaschuta. Both of these have talked to Louise before and she probably came across Trace on their channels.

[@brianthomassen2209]

@@amurdo4539 I see.

[@good_boy_13]

You should get Mason Hartman on the show. She's an LDS convert from atheism.

[@jacobmayberry1126]

Why is it that big channels like this always invite exmormons onto the channel whenever they want to understand my religion? Would you interview someone's ex-wife/husband to better understand them? Louise, you've invited plenty of believing Christians onto your show. I don't see why you can't invite a believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints onto your show as well. If this is the only video you do on the LDS church then I will be sorely disappointed.

[@bradrtorgersen_videos]

I think this is a blind spot for many people who are either post-religious, or a-religious. They assume (without really thinking about it) that the way to understand a faith is to talk to the people who've quit, because the people who've quit will critically examine the faith. And in Louise's position that might feel like a safer option, than allowing her platform to be used as a "commercial" for someone still in the faith, and pro-faith. And yes, I am making some assumptions about Louise's mindset. And yes, I do hope she takes the time to talk to an LDS person (*waving my arms enthusiastically*) who is still in the LDS church, practicing, and is happy to talk about it.

[@kathleendoodles698]

I think this tends to be an intellectual space that likes looking at religion they way anthropologists look at primitive cultures (or zoogoers look at animals). With the exception of Chayleah Sufrin, I'm not sure I've ever seen an interview show give an adherent of a religion the platform to talk favorably about their faith. They are mostly interested in post-religious people or antagonists.

[@jacobmayberry1126]

@@kathleendoodles698 she's had Glen Schrivener, a devoted Christian, on her show before. I don't see why she can't do the same for us.

[@bdc6482]

It certainly would be a good idea to speak with a variety of practicing LDS to more fully understand the religion

[@danielf10001]

I think this would be extremely relevant because I know of no other religion on earth where there is such a bright and distinctive line between active and non-active membership in any other religion like for example I don’t think it would be very interesting to interview a Catholic if they’re not practicing versus a Le practicing Catholicwhere is there is a world of difference between an active Mormon and a non-active Mormon

[@metamormonism]

The problem is if you interview one active Mormon you’ve interviewed every single one of them. The org is so hierarchical that interpretive differences simply aren’t a thing. Who gets selected for the hierarchy is he who reifies the existing structure most charismatically

[@jacobmayberry1126]

@@metamormonism yeah that's not true. You're relying on a caricature.

[@metamormonism]

@@jacobmayberry1126 oh, well I guess that clears it all up

[@metamormonism]

@@jacobmayberry1126 sorry but when it comes to anything doctrinal you’re going to get very, very little deviance from orthodoxy, not least because they excommunicate those who have different opinions

[@jacobmayberry1126]

@@metamormonism no they don't lol. Give me a specific example of someone getting excommunicated for simply having different opinions. They only excommunicate you if those opinions develop into actual apostacy like publically advocating against the church or participating in practices that go against church teachings. It's about actions not beliefs.

[@oddishpie]

I'm not sure why talking to someone who no longer believes in a religion seems like a good way to explore it.

[@skylinefever]

It would benefit the remaining religious members to know why ex members exist in order to aid in retention rates.

[@horizon8927]

@@skylinefever True. It would also benefit a curious, outsider audience to know what the members believe and why. There is a lot of "Understanding Ford cars, from your local Chevy dealer" in this arena.

[@danielmaher964]

That's a good critique. How many currently practising Mormons are publicly critically analysing it?

[@28daysleitor]

Well i suppose if you interview a believer they'll give you the sales pitch. If you talk to an ex believer they'll tell you what they used to think and what weaknesses they found in it, and that's an interesting take. Take Ayaan Hirsu Ali for example. The fact she's no longer a Muslim doesn't mean she has ceased to have a relevant opinion. In some ways her point of view is more interesting than - say - the opinion of an Iranian Ayatollah, who probably has a very dogmatic standpoint that won't be relevant to a non-believer. This seems pretty obvious and I don't know why you find it surprising.

[@swcordovaf]

@@28daysleitorthe best ones to interview are the ones who grew up members of a faith, left , and then came back. The “Come Back” Podcast is so insightful. You find out how far people where emersed in the faith then fell away and then came back and realize how short they were in their faith journey, the allure of life outside of faith and then the void of non belief, and then the realization of the need to continue in the faith journey. That is even a better view.

[@janaswanson]

There are many articulate, believing members who could be interviewed about our faith. I like TW and consider him a fair interlocutor, but as someone who left the faith and who takes a specific position on the falsity of our beliefs, it seems unsporting to use him as the "explainer" to your audience.

[@bigthangz5489]

49:49~ im glad they marry at 20, 21 ... bkoz in the outside world. ppl are having kids. have lots of kids by the time they are 20-22, 24 ... at least if they marry the mormon way... they have all those kids in marriage & there is much less sleeping aroind!

[@ricardolambo3743]

I enjoyed this interview and found Tracing Woodgrains intelligent and articulate and to have presented a sympathetic view of Mormonism. I thus find the comments attacking his appearance strange, especially since the criticisms don't go much further than: 'Why did you interview this ex-Mormon instead of...'. None of them have articulated their issue with any specific thing he said. And that silence speaks volumes, since if he had been wrong in a major way, presumably they would have jumped at the chance to tell us. Finally, we have accounts, sympathetic and hostile, of Christianity, Islam and other religions from believers, non-believers, apostates, neutral scholars and everyone in-between. For the life of me, I can't see why we shouldn't hear an ex-Mormon speak.

[@julietingram_soprano]

How crazy that religious people actually practice their religion😱 More seriously, though, would you try to understand Orthodox Judaism by speaking primarily with “ex-Jews?” For people who take their religion seriously, of course that religion is embedded in every facet of life. That’s what a sincerely held system of beliefs does.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

[Repost from latest DemystifySci. Presumably your ears were burning, LP.] One of my fav episodes on channel (especially 2nd half). I began focusing on applications of Jungian cognitive theory in neuroscience research (barely) before I ultimately washed-out of academia. I never was actually a proper, well-rounded Jungian. I think Jung's ideas about the "self" are important (which I should revisit). I like the religion/creed distinction (which I previously encountered, while partially studying Jung). I don't think creed's necessarily a bad thing. I've been pulled into the orbit of the "cultural Christians" (some sort of 'auto-subscribe'). Although, I tend to place significant qualifiers on this, almost as much as you Demystifiers. Of course, people really call Jung's religion "spiritual," and his creed "religious" (common parlance). While people nowadays say, "I'm not religious I'm spiritual," I would instead emphasize the inverse. (Or at least, almost the inverse). Elements of "creed" baked into healthy Western culture, might not so easily be taken as a given, nor are necessarily dispensable. I also think it's important, (much like yourselves and Jung,) that these are not overemphasized I was a fan of the late Hitchens, and agreed/disagreed with his arguments on specific important points (I mostly agreed). I think that his Nietzschean critique of Christianity, was almost exactly 50/50. I'm with yourselves and Jung on "spirituality," for the most part. It's sort of metaphorical language for a personal journey, in my reckoning. I think we'd all take issue with how most people engage with this approximate concept - as either a New Age, consumer-driven-type-thing, or as what my apparent-cohort, neo-trad camp (of which I'm clearly on the leftward edge) might concurrently associate with "neo-paganism". The latter might entail more of an alternate creed, although some trad's think that a personalized, pseudo-spirituality, is the exact kind of thing that results in a relatively non-normative creed. I've been given the homework assignment by the postfeminists, to read Ivan Illich. I'll see if I can squeeze it into my schedule (in-between scribbling my very-sane manifesto. In crayon). I bring up Illich because I think that "small c" catholic, "small a" anarchist, actually correctly describes our shared culture, in essence. About as well as "Libertarian" describes our actual/aspirational system of governance. Not a uniparty. But it most closely describes liberal society and governance - a reasonable left/right should probably involve Libertarian/Conservatarian. Although I get that these labels might harsh your mellow... I feel like I'm hearing you reject the terms, while affirming the ideas. Also, when you philosophizers get very real and discuss your life choices, raison d'etre, challenges/commitments, and daily existence in the brainiac-underground: 'I am Jack's sense of total solidarity, and grok-ness'.

[@grunnionyon7655]

Louise, no one would do an interview called "Understanding Gender Critical Feminism" with an ex- gender critical feminist unless they had an anti- GC agenda. Please consider what everyone is saying in the comments. The church is large with a diverse membership. Much of what you discuss would resonate with many LDS women. The ex- believer thing is so 2019!!! Please talk to an actual Latter- Day Saint.

[@PeterBrunt-t1z]

Interesting conversation but what is this person’s name!?

[@tracingwoodgrains]

My name is Jack Despain Zhou. I'm more well-known under the username I've traditionally written under, and this interview was recorded around the time I first publicized my actual name.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

Yeah yeah, some men in our burgeoning post-society, devolve into manipulable muscleheads, while others instead begin to resemble the 'deluded cult leader' archetype. I've got my 10 day chip (so I haven't had any Kool-Aid) my head's killing me and the lights are too bright, and your Mormon-meta-trolling isn't helping.

[@andrewcherpeski3180]

Okay, are you going to interview Chelsea Handler about motherhood next? As an active Latter-day Saint, I'm not bothered by ex-members of the church talking about my faith, but I do get sick of how channels like yours only ever interview ex members and act like it's the whole story on this topic. I for one recommend Jacob Hansen of Thoughtful Faith.

[@arinachernikova4378]

What is the name of this guy?

[@tracingwoodgrains]

Jack Despain Zhou. I'm more well-known under my username and have typically shortened it to "Trace" online in settings where a name is useful. This interview was recorded around the time I first publicized my actual name, so it made sense to stick with the familiar name.

[@amurdo4539]

@@tracingwoodgrains I take it that that is not your birth name.

[@tracingwoodgrains]

@@amurdo4539 "Despain Zhou" is my married name, yeah

[@johntalbot134]

Very much admire this channel, but I fear this was not the right guest for a rich understanding,

[@Eilfylijokul]

Disappointed to find this video wasn't about the traditional past time of tracing wood grains

[@RandomGuyyy]

This guy must have grown such a thick skin with a name like that

[@Eilfylijokul]

@@RandomGuyyy by the grace of being an American this bloke probably only had the third most ridiculous name in his school year

[@psychicmusings]

@@RandomGuyyy That's not his actual name. It's an internet pseudonym.

[@tristan7216]

Say hi to kitty purzog for me 😸 and don't get blocked or you'll be reported.

[@Jules-Is-a-Guy]

32:45 If I could momentarily troll: Do LP & Co. really think, that it's literally impossible to think for oneself? (I keep getting that impression on this channel). People are quite malleable, however something like independent thinking, is nevertheless possible. On that note I'll also say, pls consider de-converting and stop pedaling this stuff already. The juxtaposition of your indoctrination ad, immediately after this dude describing his damaged life, is a little too much for my brain to process. So, "cultural Christianity". Let's treat the buildings like important museum exhibits, let's treat the mythology like Greek classics, let's treat the approximate ethics like widely-enculturated, functional heuristics. And let's stop there, it's not really "Christianity" - that's not something you'd actually want. You're playing with fire, I'm really just tryna help. Didn't you once mention your post-ironic, fertility goddess statue, in your mise-en-scene? You can just be honest about what you actually 'worship'. (It's fine, I get it). The toughest, most conservatively-dressed gang, with the most offspring. Sure, children matter most in a fundamental sense, but the accompanying priority in my worldview is knowledge. (Let's just put aside how my kind were effectively barred from the academy, and subsequently tended to go insane. That's beside the point).

[@bumpercoach]

If God doesn't want you yet then He won't do as He did to Saul /Paul... You have to go find out yourself ... Plenty of respected company like CS Lewis and JBP who do much good for God without finding His restored church but maybe you want to be like the wise virgins or productive servants rather than a negative example from Jesus parables like this guy

[@ArcherWarhound]

Knew this guy was flaming gay just from the his creep face in thumbnail. Men end up gay because they had a non-existent or bad relationship with their dad, and/or because they were groomed into by an abuser. No way on earth I'd ever trust this guy with my kids. I'm not Mormon and think it's heretical, but I'm equally confused as all the Mormon commentors as to why you picked this guy of all people to talk to about Mormonism, he had literally nothing interestingly insightful to say, you could have gotten the same info from almost any exmormon.

[@MarySmilodon]

Louise no….

[@skylinefever]

I wonder how many people would stay religious if not sold hellfire and brimstone as kids. I grew up in the USA, where Pascal's Wagering the kids is common. Pascal's Wager is broken by a bunch of redditors. Whenever I hear some generic holy man complaining about edgy teens on reddit, I ask whether anyone bothers to bother to address such people. Paul Vanderklay is one of few who bothers to. I always suspected that certain people have the ability to believe it and those who do not. I was never able to believe religion. I couldn't not be an unlimited skeptic, and was treated like something was wrong by the Southern Baptist Convention. It felt like I was expected to be a groupthink zombie. "Just pray harder" was such a useless platitude. It was like telling people that if placebos don't work, take bigger placebo pills. If whispering into a black hole doesn't work, shout into it. I argued that some human minds get a "Belief in God circuit" and some don't. I suggested that at best, some religions are Plato Noble Lies. I cannot see the nobility in any form of lie. Smart but concerned with consistency? That might be why some people argue that midwits go atheist. The take on progressivism is similar to mine. I said my #1 personality trait may be "Destroy all authoritarianism." I do defend the existence of having religions exist. I just say "Things work for certain people. Never treat people as if a one size fits all exists." What am I part of? Well, I like AD&D chaotic good. Ian McGilchrist may have argued that the developed economies have created too many left hemispheric brained people, and they do not get religious experience. That, or it is what Paul Vanderklay argues after reading Ian McGilchrist. Paul Vanderklay argues that atheism may be a sign of emissary personality. I always worry that Mormon teaching might lead to people having kids they hate, and only for religious teachings. How the people actually see their kids is not relevant to religious leaders.

[@jacobmayberry1126]

Latter-day Saints (aka Mormons) don't believe in eternal hellfire and brimstone btw.

[@TrebizondMusic-cm6fp]

I could claim "religious trauma" from my LDS upbringing, if I cared about sitting at the Cool Kids Table. What I got in my upbringing was what anyone should expect in a religious environment populated by human beings: a mix of competent understanding and clumsy bungling. Some parents and teachers act from a deep understanding because they're fully converted; some are just going through the motions without questioning or thinking - and perpetuate the worst stereotypes. The last paragraph is the kind of worry that you should have for car accidents and the like. When things like that happen it's because something goes wrong.

[@hkaayaakuu]

I was watching a true crime series about the mentioned group

[@theredknight9314]

🤢

[@mybellyisapinata]

A wild Trace appears! ✨ Looking forward to watching!