Understanding NeoPlatonism with Pierre Grimes

Pierre Grimes, PhD, is a specialist in classical Greek philosophy. He is the founder of the American Philosophical Practitioners Association. He is also founder of the Noetic Society in the Los Angeles area. He is author of Philosophical Midwifery: A New Paradigm for Understanding Human Problems, Socrates and Jesus: A Dialogue in Heaven, and Unblocking: Removing Blocks to Understanding. He is also a decorated veteran of the second world war.
Here he points out that the Neoplatonists deviated from Plato's original emphasis on the Self. He regards their interest in theurgy as a decadent development. However, he holds that there is a continuous Hellenic, philosophical tradition extending from the pre-Socratic philosophers through Plato and Aristotle to the Neoplatonists. He also suggests that the Buddhist philosophy of Nagarjuna may have been influenced by Sextus Empericus and the Pyrrhonist school of Greek philosophy.
New Thinking Allowed host, Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD, is author of The Roots of Consciousness, Psi Development Systems, and The PK Man. Between 1986 and 2002 he hosted and co-produced the original Thinking Allowed public television series. He is also past-president of the non-profit Intuition Network, an organization dedicated to creating a world in which all people are encouraged to cultivate and apply their inner, intuitive abilities.
(Recorded on April 16, 2018)
For a complete, updated list with links to all of our videos -- as well as many other opportunities to engage with and support the New Thinking Allowed video channel -- please visit the New Thinking Allowed Foundation at www.newthinkingallowed.org.

[@Jacob011]

It's amazing. I feel like I'm in the presence of a Greek philosopher, sitting at his feet and listening for life-changing lessons.

[@phillipbernhardt-house6907]

Pierre is someone with whom I'd love to have a nice set of beverages and about ten hours to discuss life, the universe, and everything! Thanks for bringing us another interview with him, Jeffrey!

[@Atomic419]

This has become among my favorite channels. Great work! Great interviewer doing a great interview! Also, Iv'e met Pierre and man what a deep guy he is! Not just deep but sincere and genuine. Im grateful to have found this channel =)

[@martinh4982]

From the theme tune to the "thank you for being with us", New Think Allowed always brightens my day! Thanks Jeffrey and thanks to your many guests.

[@ummnadia]

the tune is great

[@charlieleonard1349]

Never knew Willie Nelson was into this stuff

[@maryhitchcock4847]

The conversations with Pierre are among my favorite discussions which I return to.

[@wcropp1]

This one was something special. Great talk...thanks for bringing them to us!

[@theresahabsburg795]

Very interesting talk! Also is anyone gonna mention the fact that Pierre looks exactly like a Philosopher from antiquity himself?

[@TheBraunzone]

He looks like your idea of a Philosopher

[@EwingAmaterasu]

I can imagine an old statue of him made of marble, from 2000 years ago.

[@auggied6760]

First, gonna is not a word. Second, why don't you refer to him as Dr Grimes? And, third, what does his physical appearance have to do with the richness of what he is saying??

[@sammiller8640]

@@auggied6760 This is the internet, not a college essay. gonna gonna gonna gonna gonna gonna gonna gonna

[@agnesbroderick799]

@@sammiller8640 the gonna mantra..

[@openyourmind2269]

Neoplatonism is (maybe) the most important branch of the Western Philosophy. The Neoplatonic Henology is a rare glimpse in West of the (as the advaitins says) non-dual Truth

[@TheLastOutlaw289]

Its the most powerful philosophical school from the Greeks in my view.

[@ineedcodies1073]

fr

[@leeds48]

@@TheLastOutlaw289 I also find Neoplatonism the most intriguing and compelling, and it probably has been the most influential Greek philosophy over almost two millenia. You see it's inflence everywhere through the centuries, in both maInstream and mystical Christianity, Islam, philosophy, the Italian Renaissance - Pico, Ficino, the Cambridge Platonists in the early enlightenment era, the Romantic painters and poets in the 19th century, right on down, in current times, to a host of websites, books, and other media engaging esoteric topics.

[@TheLastOutlaw289]

@@leeds48 Yes, Love Love Love it❤️‍🔥

[@rogerioassis9060]

And thank you for this delicious conversation.

[@riversandstones1644]

Its great so see Pierre again! Thank you Jeffrey! I´m quite surprised to hear Pierre's view on the Neoplatonists, I can see why he says they lost some of the essence of Plato, and fitted Plato's ideas for their purposes. I wonder what are his views on someone like Thomas Taylor, who believed in the sayings of the Neoplatonists when they affirmed that Plato's philosophy comes from Orphism. Pretty much Thomas Taylor states his firm belief of this in all the introductions to his translations. Then again, I don´t think Thomas Taylor focused so much on the pre-Socratic as he did on the Platonic philosophers. As a Platonist, I am happy to know the search for the truth in Plato's writing is still going strong.

[@arimagoo4687]

great to see Dr Grimes again, always an amazing discussion.

[@adamhasson8927]

thank you very much for this! i enjoy listning to you converse. thank you for bringing Pierre to talk to.

[@ScottofOakland]

Love hearing the correct pronunciation of Gnostics. Great stuff as usual from Pierre.

[@freedommascot]

This was a wonderful talk! Beautiful flow between the two.

[@AspieMoonWoman]

that was very rich , what a way to make philosophy simple and extremely even more intresting, thank you , very enlightening.

[@jleroy88]

I am impressed with the knowledge and clarity of mind expressed by Pierre Grimes, who it would seem is in his mid 90's. It would be interesting to hear him talk of his experiences with Alan Watts and Joseph Campbell, if you have the opportunity to interview him again.

[@hast3033]

Pierre Grimes has a KZbin channel where he has lectures specifically on Alan Watts.

[@jleroy88]

@@hast3033 thanks!

[@ajcics]

My first philosophy professor in college. Amazing man

[@RioNuevoIzabal]

I love and respect such knowledge from the professor and the interviewer! I watch this kind of videos in English and Spanish. Fascinating!! Gracias!!

[@loveofinquiry8067]

Thank you for all your work and sharing!

[@johnmiller7453]

"Fantastic"! That word describes my feelings pretty closely after watching this video. Thank you both.

[@arturocota2498]

This dude looks like he studied with Plato in high school 👀

[@kevanhubbard9673]

No he's not that old he studied under Aristotle!

[@PsychedelicAnxiety]

Lmao

[@FreedomandRights4US]

I used to think there wasnt anyone carrying on the tradition.. then i found Pierre and his lectures

[@mrty22]

Thanks you for this. Fascinating

[@auggied6760]

Jeff Mishlove is a treasure. Like no one else I've seen over my many years, he is able to contribute to every conversation with every guest, on every level. He's not a nationally recognized figure, which tells you that the real gems are hidden in plain sight.

[@leeds48]

Love this guy. His erudition is first rate and his temperament so kind and agreeable. His love of learning is truly contagious. Neoplatonism has intrigued me for years, so this interview was a real pleasure. Jeff was the at the IANDS conference in September and he added so much.

[@lav1daloca]

This one is for the ages🙌🏼

[@abohnad]

Small correction. Al Farabi was called the second teach after Aristotle. But yes, he was influenced by Sabieans of Haran in Syria. Which was the center for Neoplatonism for centuries before and after and probably still until today.

[@donaldmcronald8989]

Always a pleasure, Jeffrey. Hope you and yours are all well.

[@kevinfox6097]

Pierre thank you .

[@adivacisevaratunale]

Very Interesting!

[@c.hunter9069]

Jeffrey, you should put these onto Spotify. Lots of love.

[@bradchapman2626]

I can’t say that this adds much to my understanding.

[@braxtonmay391]

This conversation started off a bit slow but picked up pace and was really enlightening!

[@milzijex7340]

Brillant conversation. Challenging for the human intellect/language to know and define what is: the self (experiential self), a state of mind, logos/the one, the superconscious. Are they states of being and/or awareness? We think with a given, predetermined coherent substance/state we call brain/mind. I do like the notion that humans participate in an underlying universal wisdom. Thank you.

[@metafisicacibernetica]

ty!!!

[@rienderien2222a]

Jeffrey, I think you would enjoy interviewing Alejandro Jodorowsky !

[@Silvertestrun]

Ty

[@tzmythos]

I am grateful for this, because I have not really understood how the Neoplatonists related to Plato. I like Plotinus very much but am not such a big fan of Plato, and I have been trying to figure out where theurgy fits. Theurgy was not something new brought out by the Neoplatonists though maybe Iamblichus used that word but wasn't it part of Ancient Egyptian religion and also of the pre-Socratic Greeks like Parmenides? Maybe I should read the Balboa translations of Plato, though I am more drawn to Xenophenes and Parmenides and their vision of the Whole, of Oneness.

[@auggied6760]

Dr Grimes differentiates between "the one" and "nothingness" in early philosophical teachings. And he mentions that this is what the Buddhists were into. However, today's Buddhists are fixated mostly on the objective reality, because they really do not look into the sense of self. They talk about "the one," but have nothing more than a confused intellectual understanding. It is this "nothingness" that is the core of what we are, but it means obviating the self to find it, and very few are interested in this because the self is being used to pretend that it can improve itself.

[@prospero6337]

SUPERGOOD

[@TheLastOutlaw289]

So Iamblichus bringing ritual work in Platonic practice is not effective?

[@JackJohnston-ye8oc]

Rest in peace Pierre.

[@TheFrog767]

1000 years

[@ausonius100]

I think the catholic/orthodox mass being a form of theurgy is very true! I don't think this theurgic ritualistic mode of understanding and practicing the Lords supper is Biblical in any way. Yet it certainly is a result of the influence of late paganism on early Catholicism. Or at least a sort of parallel development in both religions.

[@JeffreyPappas786]

很 有意思🤔

[@imanamiomni]

Oooo The Whole!

[@user-fv1jn1gw5w]

Rest in Peace

[@kevanhubbard9673]

Plotinus seems to have died from a strange skin disease some think the rare cancer we now call mycosis fungoides a type of lymphoma.a great light went out in the world when he died.

[@TheDeathopper]

Hey, could you please provide me with the source where they say that Plotinus died of mycosis fungoides? I've been googling about this, and I couldn't find anything related to his death.

[@kevanhubbard9673]

@@TheDeathopper I can't remember where but it was said that he died of a strange skin disease and leprosy wouldn't have been strange at the time so it was spectaculated that it might have been one of the Cutaneous T Cell Lymphomas,all very rare but Mycosis Fungoides is the most common of them so more likely a person would have that than an even rarer type.

[@TheDeathopper]

@@kevanhubbard9673 I'm asking because your comment was a strange moment of synchronicity for me. I'm a medical student who was actually studying that very disease on the day I posted my comment. I was watching this video late at night before going to bed and was struck by how the very rare disease I was learning about that day ended up being the cause of death of the philosopher I was interested in learning more about that night!

[@kevanhubbard9673]

@@TheDeathopper I think that many cases are indolent and it looks like eczema or psoriasis but about 30 percent, depending on the source, of people develop the advanced Mycosis Fungoides which causes mortality via skin infection and/or heavy organ infiltration.Strangley my sister had a friend who died two years ago from stage 4a MF (I don't know the mechanism which lead to death) and years ago my mother's friend died from a closely related lymphoma called PCTL NOS which had been misdiagnosed as ezecma and psoriasis although I don't think it would have made much difference to the outcome had it been correctly diagnosed.

[@olvrhffmnn]

When you are discussing "the self" in Greek philosophy, I assume that you are referring to the word αὐτός. But αὐτός can be used as a reflexive pronoun ("I myself did it"), a marker for an abstract idea ("by or in itself"), a third person personal pronoun (as a replacement for "he" or "she") in addition to the use as a noun like "the self". If you are using translations, this distinction will get even more difficult. How do you make sure that you are not projecting your own ideas into these ancient texts when you are scanning for appearances of "the self" ?

[@pythagoreios07]

If you want to study Plato seriously , you must start learning ancient greek.

[@youtubearchive3668]

You cant make sure of this, it is so of any philosophy. The ideal should be to access the idea behind the word.

[@benquinney2]

Before and after

[@loge10]

Well, Plotinus saw himself as Platonist seeking right interpretation to explain his mystical/religious experiences through Plato (and others) who he saw as true. He was against the Gnostics and Christians but all were welcome at his school, which was free and open to the public. This discussion shows how the modern mind sees things-very different than in the period discussed. Neoplatonism is a 19th century construct of which Plotinus would not have understood or related. He also wouldn't have seen himself as "new thinking" as the idea is formulated now. Also, the Enneads were written by Plotinus then organized and edited after his death by Poryphyry, a student and companion late in Plotinus' life. They weren't student notes. Plotinus wrote in more of a stream of conscious manner, didn't review or edit (or correct spelling!). I sense a lot of ego in Grimes-not the humility authentically found in Plotinus.

[@SulienSulis]

Ego is not bad, in a sense you are also an egoist. On Grimes Ego, I haven't seen it. Maybe it is a delusion of your view that promotes your own ego instead.

[@loge10]

@@SulienSulis You're probably right.

[@SulienSulis]

loge10 Ideally, the ego is in fact an aspect of the soul anyways. Which I would relate to thymos (θυμός). I wouldn't say ego is inherently negative rather I take a Stirnerian position. Buddhists would say ”eliminate the ego” and I would say, ”Empower the ego.” Sufis believe they can rid themselves of ego by inserting ghosts.

[@SulienSulis]

loge10 I personally laugh at the Abrahamicists and Buddhists who think the ego is non-existent by replacement of a material or external or by some fixed ghost.

[@loge10]

@Chalk O'holic I'm not following, although my response to Plotinus is personal. From what Porphyry said (if you can believe him), Plotinus did not see the material world as a spiritual desert but where one expressed one's spiritual growth. He did not pursue material things but expressed himself fully in the material world. He was even appointed guardian of children of friends who were approaching death. That would indicate their trust in Plotinus' functioning in the material world. And I totally disagree with your statement about theurgy. Proclus lived 200 years after and this philosophy probably was very different after the Roman Empire made Christianity the official religion. Proclus may have just wanted to compete! If so, however, he ultimately lost... But then, it's all personal and what works for you might not work for me. That doesn't mean my approach is inferior, and if you think it does, that says something about you. About depression, many of the great mystics had experiences of "the dark" - and after all, Plotinus was very sick (possibly with leprosy) and many of his followers abandoned him. Porphyry was away because he was encouraged to recollect himself due to his own depression. His response was only human. After all, many great thinkers and artists suffered from depression. It doesn't diminish their output. It just makes them human.

[@philotheism7011]

Does anyone think Neo Platonism can make a comeback? I am the type of person that is kind of intimated when I have the minority view of something, I need some backup.

[@sawtoothiandi]

an occidental yoga? why not?

[@dragoflamer786]

Neoplatonism is still alive and living in the world within various religions. There’re philosophical strains of Neoplatonism in Kabbalah, Orthodox Christianity, and Islamic Metaphyics.

[@kevanhubbard9673]

It has never gone away just changed it's name.

[@Lu11abi]

When the anger towards the Spiritual fades away (1500 years where "spirituality" was used as a deceptive pretext for irrational, anti-Truth, cynical Dogma to secure social Power, has nurtured distrust and anger towards Spirituality) then the study of the Natural world can again include the Divine features of Nature, not just the Material. Science and Mythopaea are complimentary.

[@TheGuiltsOfUs]

A philosophy weak enough to be devoured by the cult of yeshua deserves oblivion - it should not be allowed a second chance!

[@stephendelacruzone]

✨👍

[@vikgrig8015]

How is mentioned at 10:30?

[@ferguscullen8451]

Iamblichus of Chalcis.

[@vikgrig8015]

@@ferguscullen8451 thank you

[@ekbergiw]

14:19 thought he said "Uterus"

[@kevinfox6097]

PIERRER

[@jonathangagne525]

IF I AM WRONG, I CREATED MESELF; MYSELF. IF I AM RITE, ETC CETRA. ...

[@shootermcgavinedd]

If u want to hear a story that teaches you everything u know. An maybe some thing u dont yet, Let me know.

[@marshallmcluhan33]

I’m interested, please tell the story

[@shootermcgavinedd]

Oh I forgot I wrote that what sort of around the same subject they didn't have the word deism maybe or some kind of maybe God minds his own business like a scientist in the world's like a petri dish and he doesn't like have to pay that much attention to it because of the way quantum mechanics will things and but a pluton is tried to show the one he lived in Zeus territory where it might be heretical to believe in Jesus but by doing so he made a form of he is in that doesn't operate sociologically the same as what the word deism would in the society matrix which that is a story that explains a lot I think if you were looking for one and I think it's kind of like the film The matrix where the 90s was the Pinnacle of all scientific and things to hinge off of it would be from then and that's why people could recycle a pecking order sort of if you were looking and more socio aspect but by showing the graph of one and God the Father it kind of shows and I've done it when I was a child where you sort of do a play where you're like well if you didn't do everything I approved of Jesus I'm sort of representing yourself is as a false weight zealot because you'd have to go back to BC times and while you're there and not finding a reference to say the obviousness of God's existence through at least intelligent design or something then you represent yourself as a so let no at all you know to make fun of you know to try to fight fire with fire with Jesus is just a typical rundown and by doing so you kind of like since it's sociological oppression you use that same sociological you know the upright start the one that I call the star of the fighters maybe but they might not know something they you know we'll fight for your cuz or whatever and then you know and then you get to live life and your own mind at least in those that are also like mystically connected or whatever that you're responsible for cuz you might live by like an unwritten book of you know truths that even if improvise have to fit in fit the bill which I think would go back to the 90s or whatever I think that's something at least I hope that's good food for thought

[@shootermcgavinedd]

Many typos in this but basically a platinas didn't go to the court when he was 76 because of heresy for any other reason besides that he did what a person like I did basically when I was good what do I call it pulling a Plotinus then you do that play and live by as an act so that way you know you're not as prone or indefinitely prone to being a socialist because you actually get to live your life plus you have a goal you have to share whatever you get out of life that they don't with them so that way you can live it also and it all seems to fit well I was listening to music I was telling my friend over here about and the entire albums were made even when I was five or even before then or less than 10 even to all lead up to the music being what was happening at the same time you know so people could see the future and I've heard stories and such and yada yada

[@shootermcgavinedd]

And yes the antecedent consequent chart that you could use with what I was referring to as a false weight zealot like you know a picture you know imagine a picture and then there's a different picture there you're talking about truce and what's the truth and everything is like a truth and a lie at the same time

[@williammcmahon9469]

"Guh-nostics"

[@jakeR1954rr]

right?

[@athenassigil5820]

Plotinus reborn....

[@joshuameyer8552]

Jordan Peterson sent me here

[@jackieyang9337]

In the relationship between ghosts and gods, inner goodness is called God. Inner terror, fear, greed and desire to hurt others do not necessarily help themselves, forming heart demons. Heart demons are called ghosts. Therefore, human beings choose to be gods and ghosts. Good people are not afraid of ghosts, and ghosts are afraid of good people. Therefore, there is no ghost. There is no ghost on the earth, and there is no chemical basis. If there is a ghost, it is a chemical effect

[@schrodingerbracat2927]

Aristotle didn't know Schrödiger's Cat.

[@businesswalks8301]

but that cat "thought experiment" is dumb. it's just a way to justify making Hollywood movies where multiverses exist, simply because they reify the concept of potential, and call an "actuality" a "potential".

[@MrTeenStyle]

has anyone else ever been to the school of athens? lmk xx

[@matheusdoriadearaujo3318]

Theurgy is now seem as other word for magic rituals but because it was seen through the eyes of later christian world but by their own view as the etimology tells us its a divine work, a communion by modern values religious ritual as any other but a self centered one...IMO

[@SWebb-ul1oz]

Hasn't it been said that Homer was a combination of several people?

[@polemeros]

The old lie about the Library of Alexandria. Look it up. No one really knows what happened.

[@schrodingerbracat2927]

Ruminating about Rumi the poet is also philosophy.

[@jeffweller4506]

A lot of vague information in regards to Neoplatonism ..it seems this was titled wrongly, and should have been titled Plato vs' Neoplatonism. How could you mention Neoplatonism without once mentioning Porphyry of Tyre and his Enneads of Plotinus describing Neoplatonism? ...and then how could you compare the recording of Plotinus' teachings to the personal opinions of Porphyry himself in regards to Christians and Neoplatonism? ..strange how Constantine banned that book, yet preserved the Enneads ...which is even more odd seeing the works of Arius containing accusations of Neoplatonism being mixed with Christianity against the Alexandrian Bishop, and elders ...which was also banned through Constantine. I think looking at this in such a way to mix Roman mythology, and philosophy with Greek mythology, and philosophy...and not separately understanding both Plato, and Neoplatonism from a Roman mindset vs' a Greek mindset really muddies the waters in relation to how Christianity fits in the picture ... strange how Tertullian lays out this conspiracy so well. Ever consider that removing the NEOPLATONIST academy built upon Plato's dead, and destroyed one was Rome covering up it's tracks in its intervention upon the prevailing religion throughout the Empire? You notice well that the Roman Orthodoxy PRESERVED much of practices associated with the Platonic sciences ...ever consider that it was done by design? The high priesthood of the Patrician families of those ancient seven hills was NEVER for the prolls ...not even for the lower nobility classes even.

[@countvanbruno182]

So sad how Christianity wiped out the Socratic wisdom of those great thinkers. Such a huge step backwards for European thought.

[@Lu11abi]

Amen. And turned us Away from Truth for 1500 years.

[@zealgaming8161]

That is the wrong way to think about it. Plato was far ahead of his time. There was just no way his way of thinking could work during times where might is right ruled. To ferment the fruit of ancient Greek philosophy into fine whine, it required Christianity as it's barrel. For Christianity was the immerse force required to subjugate the monstrous force of the will to power. Christianity is the right hand of modern man, while ancient greek philosophy is the left. Both where required to create the modern man.

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

You have Julius Ceasar to (primarily) blame for that.

[@post-industrialpeasant3190]

The beautiful thing is all of the great ideas that were lost in the West, similar concepts and ideas developed in Eastern Philosophy and were preserved in the great books of the East.

[@hj2963]

@@post-industrialpeasant3190 they’re universal truths

[@elmag7994]

Alexander the great was a Albanian ,and everybody should know that.🙌

[@joshzeidner5412]

Guh nostics

[@benquinney2]

Trolls

[@bronyatheistfedora]

He looks like cgi

[@terrymeadows1827]

Thank you for posting this grotesque yet laughable evidence supporting the myth of human origins of objective judgments. Been in that self-dug hole.