Underwood Hard Cast Penetration Test: 9mm vs. 40 S&W vs. 45 ACP

[@cworsf]

Nice test, I use the Underwood hard casts for my Beretta 92 & 96 for woods carry for wild hogs. I've taken a few hogs with .40 S&W 200 grain hard cast and they are lethal.

[@armus6748]

Thank you for sharing!

[@jimchambers7548]

Thats a sweet Sig 1911, cool test enjoyed watching 👍👍

[@armus6748]

Thank you for sharing!

[@Armed-Forever]

Nice demonstration of how a 40 is good for home defense, nice vid mate.

[@Gunnar-kn1hf]

That just goes to show how effective 9mm is!!!

[@libra7624]

The penetration at longer ranges will eventually favor heavier bullet as the lighter bullets lose velocity more quickly then heavy bullets, this is the b.c. and the reason 45 ACP is used for hunting, 10 mm parent to the 40 makes a 200 grain through pushing velocity higher for a good hunting load, the further distance you go you want weight unless lighter and lower b.c. loads get a boost, for example a 357 hard cast is like a 9 mm bullet getting more weight like 180 grain and a boost in velocity. b.c. or ballistic coefficient is a bullets ability to maintain velocity, for example a ping pong ball is fast just for a moment then velocity drops rapidly. Another example is a 125 grain 357 sig at 500 ft/lbs and a 230 grain 45 ACP at 400 ft/lbs the 45 ACP will have more energy at 100 yards even though 100 ft/lbs behind at the start, the light bullet for hard cast are just not for hunting unless close range, so the slow 45 230 grain conserves it's velocity better and thats why heavy weight bullets will be better at long range, short range light bullets don't have time to lose energy wich is why they seem just as good at short range

[@armus6748]

Makes sense, thank you for sharing and commenting!

[@Bowfella]

"at longer ranges". You're not using a handgun past 50 anyways. 9mm is objectively better.

[@libra7624]

@@Bowfella depends on many variables in the purpose of what your using the round for, the 45 acp has a higher ballistic coefficient then a 9 mm wich means the further out you get the 45 will more of a energy advanrage, 9 mm will slow down and run low on velocity at a higher rate then a 45, a 9 mm is like a ping pong ball wich is only a quick burst of velocity that runs out over a longer distance, a 45 is like a baseball able to buck the air resistance better and dropping in velocity at a much shorter rate so at even longer ranges eventually the 45 will be moving faster even if it started out slower and this is the thing most people forget is that light bullets of hand hand guns slow down faster then heavy bullets, just as a car on it slide slides a few hundred feet but a train because of weight sliding a thousand feet so same concept comparring light and heavy bullets, light bullets for close range and heavy bullets for long range with rare exceptions to the rule like rifle bullets and sectional density and ojive

[@PC-vq5ud]

I think this would be better if a fresh board was used for each caliber and the stack was clamped together.

[@armus6748]

I usually use a rope to cinch for example books or magazines together but these boards are very heavy, but I’ll take your advice for our next video. Thank you for sharing.

[@AppalachianAmericanWhitey]

The smaller, lighter, and faster bullet will always penetrate more but has a smaller wound channel doing less damage. What you want is a larger wound tract that reaches vital organs to cause maximum damage. Bigger bullet mass always leads to more stopping power. Always. Notice the 9 Penitrates deeper with higher velocity but has way less mass and bullet expansion. As the 40 and 45 have greater expansion and mass causing more damage to the 2nd boards breaking them in half. It's common sense. Smaller calibers require a more precise shot placement to vital organs in order to be lethal. Bigger calibers require less ammo needed to neutralize the threat due to larger mass tissue damage. It's simple.

[@armus6748]

Thank you for sharing!

[@frankbrowning328]

GREAT test! We don't often see tests done in heavy material like laminated wood. Nice LabRadar machine! Some believe the best bullet for the deepest penetration to always be the heaviest available. I've seen many tests that show that is not always the case. Most often it is the bullet that has the best ballance of velocity and weight in a +P loading. In 9mm it is often the 124/125gr hard cast flatnose , 40 S&W 165 or 180gr hard cast flatnose and 45 ACP 225/230 hard cast flatnose. Maybe we can see a test like this some time in the future

[@armus6748]

Yes of course, I just have one more revolver video coming up soon . Thank you for sharing and commenting!

[@frankbrowning328]

@@armus6748 looking forward to it

[@bobjohnson1633]

Momentum and sectional density. 357 and 45acp have the same momentum, but 357 has higher sectional density in heavy bullets.

[@ItchyBurrito]

Also people need to make sure their firearm is appropriate and capable of shooting hard cast and +p ammo.

[@876mpr]

I’d call the .45 ACP the clear winner. Sure, the 9mm penetrated slightly farther, but that’s a result of its very skimpy meplat that’s not opening much of a permanent wound channel.

[@joelmiddlecamp7185]

Underwood now makes a different version of the 9mm with a much larger meplat

[@finalcountdown7658]

45 was +P out of a 5" barrel vs. standard 40s&w out of a 4.49" barrel.

[@876mpr]

@@finalcountdown7658 Doesn’t matter. .45 ACP +P is still only 23,000 psi vs. 35,000 psi for the .40.

[@finalcountdown7658]

@876mpr PSI numbers are meaningless, lol. 40s&w still has more velocity and ft-lb of energy than 45 in general. 40s&w generally penitrates farther. A 40s&w +P also in a 5" barrel will outperform 45acp. That was a hot 45acp in a longer barrel vs. a standard 40s&w in a shorter barrel. That's not an apples for apples comparison to be able to claim a winner either way.

[@876mpr]

@@finalcountdown7658 It’s a ballistic fact that velocity increases at about half the increase in pressure. It’s why .40 is faster. Penetration in itself is somewhat meaningless. A round nose FMJ will penetrate a long way without doing much permanent damage. Bullet design is much more crucial. A large meplat and good sectional density are much more important. Paper energy isn’t really a good measure of performance in this arena. TKO factor or the Hatcher scale are much more accurate since they don’t just square velocity and ignore diameter.

[@robertseafield5810]

Great video! Keep up the good work.

[@skiptaggart8116]

Interesting results. Nice shooting!

[@SuperD00D]

Bruh you explained the purpose of hard-cast so well more info than 8 hours of Googling on and off lol

[@paulhawk-zu3oq]

If you talk about penetration 40 and 45 are tie depends on what type of targets but the 9mm will always penetrate farther due to it's speed and lighter grain.

[@libra7624]

Volume measure test is another test thats rare to see on KZbin, its the length times the width for total damage. also you see winners in some tests and losers in others, things beside wood like sheet metal, glass, sheet rock, gel, and brick

[@vlogfriendsutopia]

Howdy, not to nitpick, but the proper term would be "Indentation," as, "indention," isn't a word. Great video!

[@mistert2421]

😂

[@Indianarmslover]

Very good & informative video 👍,if you have s&b .45 acp fmj please do a penetration test.

[@armus6748]

Thank you for watching and I do plan to do an fmj, vs. Soft point vs. hard cast.

[@chuckpugsley759]

I like the idea but the plywood boards were not clamped or nailed to keep the impact conditions the same for all three calibers. Do the same test again starting with .45 and it will drive further into the plywood. the test is simply flawed for a penetration test. OR, do a new separate setup for each caliber that would be equal conditions for each round.

[@armus6748]

I will run a few more in the same manner and then retry the standard calibers. You may want to watch the 10mm auto, the 2nd round actually penetrated deeper than the first, but I agree any factor can play a role in providing an advantage to any particular bullet. Thank you for sharing.

[@Nono-rh4lr]

No way the 45 would penetrate deeper. The surface area of the 45 is too great 9mm will drive deeper.

[@D-A-1776]

True but 45 sucks for penetration, the other two will always penetrate better

[@ryanranard5187]

Excellent video

[@therealdestructicus]

Your concept is flawed. Something doesn't have to be "stopped" or held in place, it has no effect on penetration.

[@timkammer9232]

Should have used .40 +p or all standard ammo

[@ryanranard5187]

It is “+p” .40 round. It was a fair test.

[@chase4116]

There is no such thing as a "+P" .40 round. It is already operating at high pressure levels. Underwood rounds are what a +P would be considered in a .40 though there is not designation for that. Those rounds he used are the correct 3 rounds you can compare in a fair test.

[@taasch2505]

Why not a 40 +p to compare to the other +p loads?

[@armus6748]

At the time the only plus p 40 s&w ammo I could find was manufactured by Buffalo Bore; but I agree, a plus p would have leveled the playing field. Thank you for commenting.

[@adamshaw8214]

There are no Sammi approved 40 loads. The 9mm and 45 are both over 100 years old. The 40 is only 33 years old. Newer designed cartridges were produced from the beginning with max pressure to begin with. The 9 and 45 were upgraded slightly long after their induction.

[@adamshaw8214]

Sammi approved+p 40 loads I meant to say

[@taasch2505]

@@adamshaw8214 my XD handles the buffalo bores just fine though. You just need the fully supported chambers, which glock never adopted till I think gen 5 for the .40.

[@sinepari9160]

If you own a glock with the stock barrel you should swap that thing out immediately. Alpha wolf threaded barrels are fantastic and have supported chamber.

[@tedforrester1948]

I'm no slacker in physical sciences but I will never understand why so many people count the .45 out because it typically doesn't penetrate as much as the 9mm or .40 in defensive rounds. In a personal defense perspective a bullet that enters a human and exits has not expended all of it's destructive capability. A round that enters a human and does not leave has expended it's energy in that human's flesh. We see it on every KZbin channel out there... 9mm zipping to 16"s (or whatever) through ballistic gel. A .45 goes 12"s and blows a smoke ring out through entry point. In a personal defense situation (think theater, grocery store, school, sporting event, concert, or whatever) the round that over penetrates has a high likelihood of hitting someone else. The .45 still seems like the most logical caliber for personal defense situations simply because if it's tendency to not penetrate. I know this doesn't pertain to the ammo used in this video but figured the crowd here would welcome this comment and respond with "but my 9mm holds 32 +P rounds in it's triple stacked magazine." I own both a 9mm and a .45, so not hating on either. Just the discrepancies in the usual KZbin arguments. Let's have a constructive chat about this.

[@armus6748]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, I also believe the 45 acp is a powerful round with excellent versatility.

[@DirtyBird28]

Hi, okay Iv'e thinking on this a lot lately, and I'm going to use my personal experience hunting game animals of various sizes as an example of why energy dump/bullet expansion are third on my list of desirable qualities in a defensive handgun round behind 1:shot placement 2:pentration. In my experience with light/ medium weight/heavy weight rifle rounds that are far superior at delivering energy into living tissue than your average pistol round can't even begin to equal. In less, I manage to hit the central nervous system or achieve a mechanical/mobility kill through the shoulder that animal is probably running on an average of 100 yards or so.. Doesn't matter the size of the game squirrel, on up to deer, and hogs a vital heart/lung shot though the ribs has almost always resulted in the animal taking off, or requiring more lead medicine to bring them down. Yes Iv'e always used calibers proportional to the game. I'm hunting with appropriate loads designed for taking that particular animal. Opening up a deer ribcage after sending a .30 to 50 caliber projectile through it will you leave you wondering how that animal ran as far as it did because it's heart/lungs are literally just a bloody puddle that drain out when you turn the animal over. That's why I'm not a big believer in much less powerful handgun rounds in delivering enough energy into a determined attacker to get the job done. Don't get me wrong, I'm loaded up with HST's like everybody else, but the newest variation of those have been designed for deeper penetration, so it appears Federal Ammo agrees with me. The over penetration, and hitting a bystander thing is largely a myth, I believe, personally. It's a concern, yes, but statistically almost never happens in defensive shootings. We are probably more likely to mag dump into perp because our rounds aren't reaching anything vital enough to shut him down. Central Nervous System hits are the only immediate "lights out" shots from squirrel on up to Cape Buffalo 100% of the time. Happy, 4th.

[@hellvsheaven89]

45 acp will penetrate farther than a 9mm or 40 s&w through flesh or soft target. Hard object, 9mm wins because the speed plus the weight is a perfect balance. The faster the bullet travel, the better the penetratration through hard object as long as the bullet doesnt mushroom out or deform.

[@highermedia]

Has a bullet ever over-penetrated a person and injured an innocent bystander though?

[@mikerobinson8734]

@@DirtyBird28I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you. Having shot quite a few deer and antelope I have seen rounds pass completely through the chest cavity and strike another deer with enough energy to incapacitate. I would much rather have a defensive round that did not have the same capability. Just my opinion.

[@johnnymccann5607]

as reloader of many calibers and tester,experimenter,44 years of knowledge and experience, when. plywood/laminated wood is far superior than solid wood for pure penetration. I'll explain , take a 12x 12x3/4 solid pine board and a 12x12x3 pine plywood board, place them separate on bricks. take a 8 pound sledge hammer and drop on solid board first it will bust at a certain height. at same height drop hammer on plywood it will bounce. so it might possibly might take 1 1/2_2 3/4 inches of solid wood to equal the plywood. my conclusion is if it at10 yards will shoot through 5to 6 inches of plywood I should as a pistol ammunition take any dangerous game in north America but only a SECONDARY WEAPON .only a fool will hunt dangerous game with a handgun. a rifle/ shotgun far superior .this is for hard cast. bullets with 18_ 20 Brennan hardness factor. I greatly enjoyed the video. Papa 😊

[@magickaldood]

Those boards are tougher than I thought.

[@armus6748]

And heavy too.

[@MikeJones-im7ki]

How would the 357 do on that test

[@grizz474]

Shows that any of them are way better than having nothing.

[@dmdmdmdmdmdm]

Congratulations from Brazil 😊

[@armus6748]

Thank you for watching!

[@mikerobinson8734]

Kind of odd results. I would have expected the .40 to penetrate deeper. The .40 200 grain has a higher sectional density than the 9mm and moves faster than the .45.

[@armus6748]

Surprised me as well.

[@johnjones5511]

Use all plus p ammo the 40 was not!!

[@ronaldpoley4357]

@@johnjones5511 and the .40 had a 1/2” shorter barrel.

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

You guys don't know what the f*** you're talking about the 40 caliber barely beats the 45 in velocity barely and that's only with standard pressure if you bump the 45 up to plus p pressures before you caliber cannot compete with it and don't even mention the 45 super or the 450 s&c or my God not the 460 Rowland so I don't know what you're so f****** surprised about what you need to quit doing is listening to other people's b******* and do your own research you will learn

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

​@@armus6748what surprised you you're nothing but a 9 mm fanboy the 45 is just plain old standard pressure and if the 45 was plus p it would have smoked both of them completely surprised you're just ignorant that's all

[@billrowan1957]

Beautiful sig!

[@alexrice3498]

Great video. Thank you

[@robertboyd8364]

What he's not saying is the 40 caliber broke it in half

[@Nono-rh4lr]

Yes but penetration is what’s needed for woods carry.

[@ryanranard5187]

😂😂😂

[@calebyoung1579]

I have the exact same hard cast round in 9mm as the .40 in this video. If they feed well. It's going in the woods with me.

[@sinepari9160]

@@calebyoung1579 Good choice. It's my woods gun in grizzly country. G35 and 6'' aftermarket barrel with hard cast bullets.

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

So did the 45 what are you trying to say man

[@caseysutton2673]

Would be nice if the guns had the same barrel length. 9 and 45 had 5 inch barrels. 40 had a 4 inch barrel.

[@mrjones4249]

Thanks for the video

[@armus6748]

You’re welcome and thank you for watching!

[@asrt1982]

doesnt glock say no lead ammo in their barrels? Also, I know buffalo bore does NOT rec stock glock barrels for their .40 +p because of possible case rupture.

[@armus6748]

That’s the only 40 cal. I own and can use for demonstration purposes, but according to specs their gen 5 contains more aggressive polygonal rifling; nevertheless, I will encourage my viewers to adhere to the manufacturer’s recommendations. Thank you for commenting and sharing.

[@sinepari9160]

If you haven't swapped your stock glock barrel to an alpha wolf then you should

[@anton1949]

Bullet diameter test, is what this is.

[@kennethrisner8648]

I'd like ta get some of the 9mm but being retired and on a small monthly income where every cent counts I don't think I can afford any of this pricey ammo. But my biggest question is, if anyone cares to explain it to me is what exactly is +p ammo? I was under the impression that +p was hotter loaded ammo with a greater muzzle velocity but seeing that the underwood 9mm hard cast didn't even break 1200 fps it appears to have no better muzzle velocity than an average 115 gr fmj and that to my understanding doesn't rate as +p. On another hand I have a few hundred rounds of Winchester Active Duty 9mm 115 gr flat tip fmj which states a muzzle velocity of 1320 fps. It appears to be some pretty hot stuff and there is a noticeable increase in felt recoil when firing it from my Taurus g3. But nowhere on the box does it say +p. If you are so inclined someone please better my understanding of +p.

[@armus6748]

If I understand correctly, plus p ammo operates at higher pressures, thus increasing velocity and muzzle energy. The problem is many manufacturers fall short except for only a few, but I agree that standard pressure ammunition works just fine. Thank you for sharing and commenting.

[@gavinfairbanks]

The reason your 115 grain ammo is faster is because it's much lighter. +P takes ammo to the edge of saami specs but because it's a 147grain bullet it still can't push it as fast as 115. You can find some ammo manufacturers like buffalo bore that sell +P+ ammo but those are outside of saami specs and can be hard on your pistols. 147grain at about ~1100 seems to be about as much as your can get out of a full size pistol in a +P load it's what most of the hard casts I've looked at are pushing.

[@beenschmokin]

40 hit a knot.

[@armus6748]

Could be, maybe in one of the layers but for sure it had more expansion than the rest. I may have to redo this penetration test again to confirm. Thanks for sharing, more videos on the way!

[@beenschmokin]

@@armus6748 Good stuff man! Trial and error. Keep em coming

[@aaronwilcox6417]

Test was biased. 9mm was using +p loads where 40 wasnt.

[@ryanranard5187]

False

[@bobups2031]

How about the 10mm?

[@armus6748]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/goiuhaWlit94gMksi=OlhStzB_yE1CSHGC

[@armus6748]

Here is the video, thanks for watching!

[@billrowan1957]

Great video, appreciate your time! I hate to be this guy but plywood or laminated beams vary so much from one layer to the next it's quite unfair. I definitely subscribe to velocity over mass.

[@muddthekingofnothing6249]

40hit a hard place that’s why it broke in half which also dissipated energy

[@James-z5m4m]

The 45 ACP is larger in diameter then the 9mm and heavier. Penetration tells you nothing. The 45 has much more nock down power. 9:45

[@ronaldpretzel7170]

Thanks

[@caseysutton2673]

Hey look another comparison and the 40 s&w is shot out of the shortest barrel again.

[@MaineGreenCrabs]

Most plywood bears I see, like the one in the old lady’s yard down the road, get put down by just about everything. Even the other neighbors kids base ball. 😉

[@D-A-1776]

10mm is the best, 45 sucks for woods carry its slow unless you got 45 super. If youre going in bear country get a 10mm or bigger

[@357mag84]

I have had better results with Underwood flat FMJs in some testing mediums than the hardcast. (If you are looking for some other video ideas)

[@N238E]

Good aim.

[@armus6748]

Thank you for watching!

[@BluePatch-pc7sx]

Nice, thanks

[@tenacious3inc950]

The 40 is not +P but the 9 and 45 are +P.

[@SuperD00D]

For bear .40 > 9mm > .45 For humans, .40 >= 9mm = .45 For humans .40 is slightly better but all three about the same I would never use a 200 gr .40 for penetration though. Even 180 gr is to heavy. I’d compare 135, 155, 165, and 180. I’d imagine the 155 would likely have the best results

[@armus6748]

Thank you for watching and sharing!

[@timothylandenberger8474]

Not a valid control of variables. Each shot changes the structure/environment of the wood. You need to use 3 intact boards. Try to strike the middle of each. The flexibility is another variable that needs to be controlled.

[@Texan-1911]

Those would put such a nasty hole in anyone …. It’s almost scary the amount of firepower we are allowed in America like look at the 45-70 hot ass round not to mention 10mm and .40 lodes hot . I carry a 1911

[@armus6748]

Nice!!

[@southernarsenal908]

Yet another video comparing 9mm + P amd 45 acp +P to STANDARD pressure 40 S&W and calling it a fair comparison.

[@finalcountdown7658]

Yup and the 9mm and 45acp had 5" barrels while the .40 did not.

[@southernarsenal908]

@@finalcountdown7658 That kinda proves my case right? Using a shorter barrel and standard pressure round to compare to longer barrels and +p is NOT a fair comparison.

[@southernarsenal908]

@@finalcountdown7658 these youtube “professionals” are doing all they can to promote the 9mm, even over far superior rounds like the 40 S+W… its fake. I will never do that in my chNnel!!

[@finalcountdown7658]

@@southernarsenal908 Are you confused? What did I do again?

[@southernarsenal908]

@@finalcountdown7658 not you! Lol

[@pdam6131]

All plywood LVLs is not a recognized test media. One LVL and some water jugs is a better simulation.

[@danoman5217]

That definitely not a scientific test of all caliber i would have started with 10 mm 41 357 and 44 mag. 460 and 480 ruger ans SW 500 is a no brainer.

[@armus6748]

I started with standard calibers for people who only have one firearm in their inventory. I recently tested the 10mm and plan on doing a follow up on the 44 mag. Nevertheless, thank you for sharing and commenting.

[@sparky_-mf2cs]

Thats a beautiful 1911

[@mrmann44]

Kind of crappy test. I wouldn't use a laminated wood, and I'd space 'em some. If the wood was not as difficult to bust through we could see a bigger difference in each load. As far as king for bear hunting, I think I'd still stay with 45. A 9mm is only .355 which is a 28.5% smaller hole, plus once you add the grain weight to foot pounds of energy, I'd still favor the 45.

[@armus6748]

The LVL boards are used as flooring, my father-in-law is a builder and he used these boards for his upstairs bedroom. They are very dense and sturdy. However, thank you for sharing your perspective and commenting.

[@doranmaxwell1755]

LOl.. hard cast and coated bullets for a buck or so each? I have been casting bullets for half a century... I have been coating them with HT coat for ten years or so? Every writer and ammo maker made fun of these 'useless' bullets until very very recently... Now? they are jumping on the bandwagon. I belive that the reason they did not earlier was that they did not have the ability to actually cast/coat/load these bullets. my load for the 45 acp is a 200 grain cast and coated bullet at about 1000 fps. my 44 mag mag load is a 240-260 cast and coated SWC or FP at around 1300 fps my 44 spl load (for SAA) is a 250 grain cast and coated bullet at around 800-900 fps depending on barrel length. My .357 loads follow this basic premise

[@marquezboyd2578]

This not a good test u didn't have them strapped down

[@armus6748]

These boards are heavy in comparison to regular pine but I do agree that strapping them down may have added another layer of consistency. Thank you for sharing your perspective!

[@marquezboyd2578]

@@armus6748 no problem I'll love to see more 40s&w shooting

[@Flatearth10mm]

Wouldn't trust any of those three calibers for bear defense.10mm auto all day. EDC woods and work.

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

45 super or 450 snc or 460 rolling all day 10 mm weak ass plus p40 caliber is all it is this isn't the 80s anymore man you wouldn't catch me nowhere on this Earth with a 10 mm in my hands in Bear country

[@calvinnelsonjr6465]

357 sig would win

[@armus6748]

Thank you for the idea!

[@davidfields4981]

Ignorant. You have to use a 5 inch barrel S&W 40 in order to be a Fair Test. It may gain enough power to penetrate the 2nd board. Also , because factory ammo can vary, you need to perform multiple tests of 3-5 bullets from each caliber's box.

[@armus6748]

@@davidfields4981 Sorry, I don’t have a 40 S&W in a five inch barrel; however, I may revisit this penetration test if I acquire one at a later date. Thank you for watching and commenting!

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

This guy's got to be a 9 mm Fanboy that 9 mm did not go that far it didn't make it out of the second board it showed it was right there stuck in the second board it was tied with the 45 and the 45 had more foot pounds so the 45 is the true king as usual

[@Fctsdntcarebouturfeelings]

Not a good medium or setup for this kind of test.

[@gregalcorn-pu5ye]

What do you expect from a 9 mm fanboy