Undyne's Lie and Why it Bothers Me | Undertale Analysis

[@Dorked]

This video is a topic I lightly touched on in my Papyrus video years ago, but I wanted to give it more focused discussion. If you wanna see more small UT/DR discussions like this, let me know! You can support me on Patreon at patreon.com/dorked, and if you like Papyrus and Undyne, consider checking out Inverted Fate, my Undertale webcomic, as both play significant roles: invertedfate.com/chapters Please do consider checking out my Paper Mario video, too: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWrTqpJ4eppjaNE And if you like Kingdom Hearts, I have some videos there, too: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKbcZpSPis6dfac&pp=gAQB Hoping to put out another KH vid sometime soon, and EVENTUALLY that SatAM Sonic vid. My recent Ralsei video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hICYnmqDnbmHhq8 Other UT/DR Analysis: kzbin.info/www/bejne/aofJeZt4nZaWbsU&pp=gAQB Fandom Mandela Effect: kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJK1fJ5qededi9E&pp=gAQB DR theories & analysis: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gabIeZp3j8iJZpI&pp=gAQB Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 1:17 - Undyne's Intentions & Double Standards 4:54 - Unintentional Cruelty 6:29 - Neutral Endings & Broken Morals 9:00 - Conclusion & Channel Update

[@MrMagistralMalik]

Megalovania is Chara’s Theme. 😎😑

[@jaspersagem9469]

Smaller Deltarune video suggestion: If we're being critical of the games, something that bothered me in Deltarune is how Clover is treated as one person by other characters, instead of three people who are conjoined. The characters and narration refer to Clover with singular she despite each head head having her own personality, and they don't get individual names; they're all just Clover. I think the idea might be that people genuinely didn't know there were three heads, given that they each pop out of holes and talk to you individually, with their full body reveal being a sort of plot twist, but it still annoys me that Clover's depiction is the basic conjoined twins (in this case triplets) who don't get along trope. Conjoined twins are rarely written sincerely; they're always comic relief. That's wierd considering actual real conjoined people exist and it's probably annoying to see yourself as a joke in all media representation.

[@space.404]

Just a small tip: You should add the timestamps in the description box so they show up automatically in the video

[@thefrubblewarrior4678]

Now this is the character research I like to see!

[@xuxxux4471]

You were spitting facts in this video. Papyrus deserved better, damn.

[@Persona_Random_]

It's funny how the fandom portrays sans as overprotective when undyne is the one who really it is with papyrus

[@Dorked]

Yeah. Granted, Sans still does kinda lie to Papyrus in the neutral endings (and Papyrus is fully aware of this in the King Papyrus ending), but I think Undyne's lies and stuff are a bit more concerning.

[@clawcakes2]

undertale fandom loves neglecting any character that isn't sans, papyrus, frisk, or chara

[@matthewcaffee2125]

@@clawcakes2 honestly, frisk is an insert by nature and chara is an enigma characters treat as definitively X or Y so it's hard to say they're even in the equation past just getting to the sans and papyrus part.

[@roboticspider4554]

exactly! if anything, sans might be a bit _too_ hands-off.

[@Le-Ghost]

​@@roboticspider4554 Actually ☝️🤓 sans is indeed overprotective, he seems "a bit too hands-off" at first glance, but I can assure you my friend, that he isn't.

[@cacaumassipanoficial6203]

It's interesting how Frisk has the chance to tell a lie to Undyne about animes being real, which i find similar to the lies she tells Papyrus since it's about something she loves and it's part of her life, but if we choose to tell the truth she gets visibly affected but decides to be strong and accept, a reaction I see as a sample of what Papyrus would do if Undyne told him the truth.

[@Dorked]

YEAH, that's another thing. Undyne having this whole scene with Alphys being honest and then Frisk having the choice to be honest... and she still doesn't tell Papyrus the truth. Tbh, I think it woulda been easy enough to have them talk about it in the epilogue.

[@cacaumassipanoficial6203]

@@Dorked Maybe she even thought about telling him after that conversation but in the end the royal guard is undone so maybe she changed her mind. But it would still be interesting to see her doing it.

[@skullzans]

@@Dorked Agreed. HARD Agree. But, It'd be funny and sad if she just doesn't if you say anime is real.

[@tobysinbad]

damn this hit hard for some reason, I have always lied to her :/

[@jodohe]

One question. Is Frisk telling the truth in our perspective? After all we are in control of Frisk and maybe they just say "what we say". We don't know what the weapons of the humans look like and in our world we have No giant weapons. Also humans are technically able to use magic and we can't cast a spell. So who says there aren't giant swords in this world? If Frisk is telling what we say in our perspective that means, if we lie we are telling the truth and if we telling the truth we are telling a lie.

[@matti.8465]

Something I never understood is, members of the Royal Guard are supposed to restrain humans and bring them to Asgore, not kill them. Yet they all try to kill Frisk, including Undyne, regardless of if they fight back or not. By that logic, Papyrus is the only guard who actually does his job correctly.

[@Dorked]

I think the guard is operating on "take human SOUL, bring it to Asgore," whereas Papyrus is going for capture instead. It's interesting all the same, tho.

[@sam8226]

I always wondered about the whole capturing the human x soul thing, Eeveryone beside Papyrus is trying to kill us for the soul. But wen we die the soul shattered right? The monsters are attacking us in the soul, because they are using magic, hurting the soul not the body. So how are they extracting the human soul, or how were they planig to?

[@Dorked]

@@sam8226 I don't think the soul actually breaks in-universe. Undertale repeatedly stresses that human souls persist after death. I think the soul breaking is just a way to visualize a death with the simplistic battle UI and isn't diagetic.

[@sam8226]

​@Dorked yes, that makes more sense, thanks =) (And the magic only hurting the soul is something I'm not sure, maybe it was misremembering)

[@funnybones98]

yeah, if it were to bring the human itself to asgore, paps woulda gotten in

[@michal_1725]

What I also find sad is how even though Papyrus wants to join the Royal Guard for the sole purpose of being popular, he already is, he just never realizes it. In the Neutral Ending where you kill only Papyrus, Undyne leads a rebellion against Toriel and personally throws her out of the castle. Because of Papyrus' death, the underground rejects the policy of treating all fallen humans as friends. And while it is possible that the monsters just sided with Undyne because she's the head of the Royal Guard, as Sans says in his phone call regarding the death or his brother - "nobody wanted to see that happen ever again" which implies that people joined the rebellion specifically because of Papyrus' death. In this case Papyrus is even more beloved by the underground than Mettaton as Mettaton's death doesn't cause any rebellion and ironically enough neither does killing all of the dog Royal Guard members in Snowdin (provided you didn't kill any other monsters).

[@Dorked]

What's interesting about the rebellion ending is you CAN get it with Papyrus alive- you just have to kill other monsters. Kill enough and the rebellion still happens, and Papyrus and Sans go to live with Toriel in the Ruins.

[@michal_1725]

@@Dorked The specific monsters you have to kill for the rebellion to happen are either Papyrus, Undyne or more than 10 monsters in total. This means that for some people at least, Papyrus was just as important as Undyne herself.

[@dylanzlol7293]

Also, if you kill papyrus in a neutral run and backtrack to snowdin town, the dialogue changes, showing that papyrus's death quickly affected snowdin town.

[@DrawciaGleam02]

@@dylanzlol7293 I remember that! I see that neutral ending as everyone realizing they took Papyrus for granted while he was alive....

[@dylanzlol7293]

@@DrawciaGleam02 its not a neutral ending, you literally just have to kill papyrus and backtrack to snowdin town to see the dialogue changes.

[@michal_1725]

One more thing to note regarding Papyrus being tougher than the Canine Unit is that Papyrus has more HP than all the dogs combined. Papyrus is sitting at a comfy 680 HP, Doggo has 70, Lesser Dog has 60, Dogamy and Dogaressa have 108 each and Greater Dog has 105. And if we're going by Check data, Papyrus has higher ATK and DEF than all the dogs as well and the same about of DEF as Undyne. Behind the scenes the stats are a little diffirent, with Dogamy, Dogaressa and Greater Dog having higher DEF than Papyrus but I wouldn't really count that as "correct" inuniverse, as by that logic Asgore has about -30 DEF. Papyrus is also one of the only two monsters we know of who can change our SOUL mode to blue, an ability that is unique to him and Sans. Not even Asgore can change the player's SOUL mode. Not to mention if we're going by popular fan theories, Papyrus' fabled Special Attack that we never got to see ingame involves him using the same blasters that his brother does (as hinted at by his hangout dialogue if you abandon your genocide run). Papyrus is the single strongest monster in Snowdin and has more HP than both of the Royal Guards in Hotland (who are each sitting at 150) and even Toriel (440) who is a Boss Monster. In conclusion, Papyrus is a good fighter who has more combat abilities, control over his attacks and endurance than all of the Royal Guard members we know (not counting Undyne). Justice for my boi, he deserves that Royal Guard spot.

[@ofekma12345]

Papyrus is the final boss of snowdin after all, despite not being a member he gives the player far more challenge than any of them.

[@gremlin2239]

You could even make an argument that, since Papyrus lacks an "intent to kill," that the ATK stat that he displays is only a fraction of his full strength. There is an argument to be made that Papyrus is in contention with Asgore over being the strongest non-DT non-Soul monster in the underground. I would love to see a full, in-depth attempt to gauge how much of a "brutal kind of guy" Papyrus really is.

[@mokie7421]

(tl:dr this video) kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZCpkqZmhtCKn8U I forgot where someone also made a comment similiar to this one (it might be a video soley about why papyrus is the strongest monster in undertale), papyrus also has control over gravity itself. Besides manipulating your own, he long "jumps" over you after your finale interaction leaving snowdin(basically levitation) and somehow controls the WIND specifically where his cape is when he does his signature pose. The ladder might just be for comedic effect, but I can't remember any other character manipulating the environment around them to their own whims like Papyrus does. Especially in such a casual situations. And I just remembered. He is the only one out of all the boss fights whos sprite does not move one bit. No facial expressions or anything. Apparently it's because he's holding back. The correlation being that the more a characters sprite moves, the more effort they're putting into the fight. Even sans tries harder than him in his respective genocide fight. I'll have to link that video if I can find it.

[@sheogorath6834]

@Therandomguyhi "considering Toriel blasts Asgore off the screen in True Pacifist" Because she took him by surprise. " her true stats might be more like Asgore." Except that she doesn't take care of herself, as revealed in the Alarm Clock Dialogue.

[@sheogorath6834]

@@gremlin2239 Toriel doesn't want to kill either, and her stats are still the same as Asgore.

[@youtubebobguy]

Tbh I get why he isn't in the Royal Guard but he makes incredibly good puzzles and deserves to be in the Royal Guard. I mean, he technically does better than the dogs. Much better.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, I probably coulda brought up how Papyrus sets up a lot of puzzles and hurdles. Not all of them are GREAT, but he tries, and is very, very proactive. He has the conviction. He just chooses not to kill.

[@youtubebobguy]

@@Dorked ikr. At least he tries like Undyne does.

[@youtubebobguy]

@HBegaming YT yeah that's what I was gonna say but I forgot what the name of the Gauntlet was.

[@nicholassgobero]

​@Therandomguyhi i think The thing with Papyrus is that he is strong physically and somewhat emotionally, he has too big a heart, and she doesn't want him to die or lose that, so she lies, i mean, in The genocide route we pretty much trivialize everything he throws at us and at The battle with him, he straight up doesn't fight, he doesn't fight against a genocidal maniac because he thinks we can change, he'd die If Asgore ever broke The barrier and Papyrus had to fight as a member of The Royal guard, or worse, he'd have to become a Monster and kill to survive

[@thethree13o]

​@Therandomguyhi Virgin royal guard dog vs Chad papyrus

[@FestiveAngel06]

I love Undyne, but this is still a problem she has. It's disheartening even how in-universe, Sans and Undyne infantilized Papyrus. Anyway, great video as always!

[@Dorked]

Yeah, it's something a lot of neurodivergent people especially have to deal with, which I think is part of why Papyrus resonates w/ so many people who're autistic or have ADHD, haha.

[@TheVillainousSoul]

In the case of Sans, at least to me it makes more sense? I have older siblings and am an older sibling myself. Sometimes it's hard to realise the younger sibling is no longer as young as they used to be. Some parents also end up doing this to their own children, some to a worse extent than others. It's still wrong to do, and is a flaw, but it makes sense considering they're related in my opinion. In the case of Undyne however? That one definitely is less understandable.

[@matti.8465]

Does Sans canonically infantilize Papyrus though? He doesn't tell him anything, but he never tells anybody anything

[@metal42]

Sans just helps Papyrus with his puzzles and feel better. I don't think he infantilizes him.

[@sptflcrw8583]

​@@matti.8465 Yeah, that's not really a Papyrus thing as much as it is just Sans being Sans

[@JezElectro13]

i never realized Papyrus still is the best possible guard Undyne could ever. and that's WITHOUT proper training

[@Dorked]

Yeah, Papyrus is leaps and bounds more competent than every royal guard that isn't Undyne.

[@sobanoodles4286]

@@Dorked I'd argue that he's actually better then Undyne. If you think about it, Papyrus being so compassionate is actually good for many cased that aren't killing a child that a royal guard might have to handle. And his puzzle solving skills could very well translate into being good at solving problems that don't need something broken. Even for more violent cases in the underground he has the tools with his blue attacks to essentially force people stop moving and fleeing without overly hurting them. (plus papyrus can actually do his job in hotlands unlike undyne)

[@sobanoodles4286]

@Therandomguyhi I didn't say stronger, undyne is 100% superiors in that aspect. I was talking about other duties a royal guardsman might have, sense as far as we know they're the closest thing the underground has to a police/emergency force. In a lot of those times, Papyrus could often be a lot better then Undyne

[@iantaakalla8180]

On the other hand, it makes too much sense that the violent Undyne would be the leader of the security unit and Papyrus would be dismissed. In terms of doing other guarding stuff, Papyrus would be skilled and the leader.

[@JezElectro13]

@@iantaakalla8180 i didn't really meant Paps would be the leader but still, he deserves to be Undyne's #1

[@blehhhhh-q30]

i actually never noticed the implications of undyne never telling the truth to papyrus. that's a very fair point. honestly with how the thing is handled in undertale (brushed off as a joke as you said), i actually kinda doubt toby fox himself thought of this.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, it's entirely possible he didn't consider it, which is weird when there's the whole Alphys honesty moment and being able to tell Undyne the truth about anime. Like, I don't think he intended it as anything malicious at all.

[@CaptainCFalcon]

​@@Dorked honestly, probably was just an offhand decision he made that he didn't decide to go further into. As it is, it isn't really _necessary_ to the game for route completion or secrets, but it would have been nice to have seen it delved deeper into.

[@kingmagikarp97]

I once saw really good fanart of Papyrus sitting curled up into a ball outside undyne's house next to the window he jumped out of, with him in tears from overhearing what she tells frisk. It's been years since I saw that picture and I don't know the name of the artist but it was an amazing piece of art.

[@LilacMonarch]

Honestly this is what I think happened (it's not confirmed of course) since he seems to know a lot more than he lets on. He jumped out the window to get Frisk and Undyne alone together, but he had no reason to actually go anywhere.

[@artemis_173]

I too always imagined him listening to their conversations and was sure he'd interrupt undyne any second while she was saying all that

[@VillagerCometh]

Yeah let's just say that actually happened it does do him a bit of justice

[@DrummerrDuckie]

@LilacMonarch omg you're probably really onto something right there! In addition to Papyrus not really having anywhere else to be, he would likely feel optimistic yet cautious about something going wrong and Undyne trying to suddenly kill or trick Frisk into meeting Asgore. If anything went wrong, then Papyrus would feel horrible if he wasn't there to protect his new human friend. So ofc he'd stay there, and may be initially too caught off-guard to immediately call out Undyne himself. I feel like he'd hate crying in front of others because he wouldn't want to be seen as "weak" or "vulnerable," so he may also want to wait, take some time to calm back down, think of what he wants to do and how to say things if he wants to confront Undyne about the truth, and he'd want to do so with his cheerful, confident persona/mask back on.

[@TheMonsterInYourCloset17]

@@DrummerrDuckie Holly crap, this makes so much sense!

[@Grim-c8n]

I definitely think it's a personal bias Undyne has for Papyrus that causes her to try and keep him out of danger. When you kill members of the canine unit Undyne shows disapproval and seems to have a genuine desire to avenge them, but when you kill Papyrus in a neutral run it is completely different. She doesn't bother with any big heroic speech, her theme doesn't even play, she just looks back on how much Papyrus meant to her and states coldly that she is going to kill you. Normally Undyne justifies trying to take your soul to help monsterkind or even the rest of the world, but when you kill Papyrus she just wants to kill you out of pure bloodlust. It really is too bad that we'll likely never see a satisfying conclusion to this plot point because it really does add an interesting layer to Undyne's character and learning the truth could be a "GREAT" moment for Papyrus, but hopefully at the very least the more complex elements of Papyrus's character will be explored further in Deltarune. And since you asked I think a fun topic for another Undertale video would be... Sans. I don't mean all the gaster time and space stuff or the possible connections to Deltarune though, for once I think it would be nice to just talk more about his relations to other characters and who he is as a person. There's the more obvious stuff like him talking to Toriel through the door and how he interacts with his brother but I also think you can learn a lot from how he goes about judgements in the neutral runs. It's also really interesting whenever other characters mention him in phone calls since they never really seem sure what to make of him. It's like characters in-universe see him as about as much of an enigma as we do lol. (Also I've always just found it interesting how Flowey seems to almost adore Papyrus while on the other hand he completely despises Sans)

[@Debater]

You know, it really is interesting how Undyne's speech changes if you kill Papyrus vs anyone else. If you kill, say, Doggo, she still does her big heroic speech about how it's justice to kill you for what you've done and how your death will be good for everyone. With Papyrus? She doesn't even *attempt* to act like she's doing this for heroic reasons, she's fighting you for a purely personal reason: you killed Papyrus. Her friend. Someone who did *nothing* to deserve such a fate. She's not seeking justice there, she's seeking *revenge.*

[@PrivateDaisy]

Papyrus was Flowey's "favourite toy", it took much more time to get him bored playing with the skeleton, than the other monsters. Meanwhile Sans killed him several times, so it makes sense Flowey despises him. It's all mentioned in dialouge Flowey has when you repeatedly kill Asgore instead of doing pacifist (I think)

[@DogDogGodFog]

Flowey hates Sans because Flowey himself also did the genocide route and got beat by Sans.

[@affsteak3530]

I think Undyne can tell herself the Doggos died in the line of duty. You can almost see the glory in avenging the brave fallen guards. Papyrus? Undyne knew he wouldn't fight a human like it was "kill or be killed." She tried to protect him from that. Frisk killing Papyrus is a personal failure. Frisk isn't a worthy or honorable opponent. They don't deserve heroic speeches and Undyne doesn't feel like giving them anymore.

[@Blackandwhitecat-to5ll]

​@@DogDogGodFogWhere is this mentioned?

[@greyscaleadaven]

I know this has been talked about at length at this point, but there's something to be said for the fact that not even Toriel, a Boss Monster which has one of the most powerful monster souls, is able to fully hold her magic back from killing Frisk. However, Papyrus is able to easily do the same thing without exerting himself that much. I know that the 'movement in battle' theory has also been going around, and that also plays into how little Papyrus is trying in his battle with Frisk in Snowdin (other characters in battle move side to side when fighting, Papyrus doesn't move AT ALL). He even spares Frisk at the end of his neutral fight, allowing you to kill him. He's a LOT tougher than he looks, and is smart enough to know that fighting a genocidal murderous human is not smart so he chooses to appeal to your pathos instead. Undyne knows of this intellect and strength obviously, but chooses to shove busy work into his hands because she doesn't want his outlook on life to be tarnished by the grim nature of war and history. What she doesn't know however is that he's probably much more intimately familiar with these subjects then she recognizes. Her motivation makes sense from her perspective, but ultimately she fails to consider his feelings in the process. He sat in front of her house for an entire night just for her to not take him seriously like everyone else, that probably doesn't feel great. Great analysis as usual!

[@Dorked]

Actually, that's a great point. If monsters can already be killed so easily, then a last ditch attempt to appeal with pathos is actually SMART. Because if he did give it his all, he'd probably still die anyway.

[@ronjonald660]

There’s a reason Papyrus lasts longer than Mettaton Neo…

[@caniaskyoukindofaweirdques7053]

He IS Sans’ brother. There’s no way that Sans can use Gaster’s powers to his advantage but Papyrus can’t. He’s definitely one of the strongest in the underground

[@sheogorath6834]

Toriel has been exiled for years and has probably never trained to control her magic since. That and the fact that she doesn't take care of herself.

[@agenttex5973]

I dont think that was Papyrus trying to just appeal to the player I think he just genuinely believes that people can be better, He chooses not to fight because he believes the player isnt going to harm him hence the line before his fight

[@nathanschultz7950]

Something that should be mentioned, is that Papyrus is right outside of Undyne's broken window when she tells frisk this... It's quite possible that he actually knows about the lie and hasn't confronted undyne about it.

[@pumpkinsoda9017]

Yeah, like he jumps out of the window to get you two alone together, but there's no evidence of him actually going anywhere before you leave. It's entirely possible he eavesdropped on the entire thing and just left when the house went ablaze.

[@gonerdenji]

I honestly wonder what papyrus will be in deltarune Without the goal of being a royal guard and without undyne's lie, he must have gotten a new goal And I highly doubt there's another person making him chase an impossible dream.

[@Dorked]

The fact that he seems to be a shut-in is interesting. It goes to show that the lonely side of Papyrus that is implied in UT might be more explicit in Deltarune.

[@emirturkmen4524]

I really hope he and monster kid (or I guess monster teen in Deltarune) meet, it was really sweet seeing monster kid become a fan of Papyrus in undertale and it can be really interesting in deltarune if it's written well

[@gonerdenji]

@@Dorked Considering that DELTARUNE characters shows differences with age from their Undertale counterparts (like monster kid and snowdrake), I wonder if Papyrus will be a teenager in Deltarune?

[@Dorked]

@@gonerdenji It's possible! There's no real rhyme or reason for the ages. Snowy and MK are the same age in DR, but not in UT.

[@gonerdenji]

@@Dorked It would explain better why sans wants Kris to meet his brother A teenage friend for his teenage brother for teenage conversations over teenage food

[@sandwich2473]

Absolutely a very very interesting topic people seem to coddle papyrus when in reality he's very aware of the goings on around him, he's got a solid understanding of how the world works and the situation he finds himself in with regards to his brother, and the stakes of everything (despite being a little bit silly and a little gullible) Honestly, he reminds me of me 👀

[@Dorked]

Both Undyne and Sans tend to underestimate Papyrus, and what's interesting is how Papyrus lies and feigns ignorance around his brother. You can see it in the solo Papyrus phone call outside Alphys' lab where he acts like he doesn't know what a lab is, but when you call him inside, he does, and Sans isn't around. He also talks about Sans' interests in that second call.

[@soulight6091]

@@DorkedYa, Paps isn't stupid. Maybe arrogent with a heart of gold for sure, but definalty not stupid.

[@Tulip_bip]

@@Dorked in one of the neutral endings he directly shows that he feigns ignorance around sans. when he first talks to you, he acts like his normal optimistic self. but then he says something along the lines of "did... did sans leave?" and then immediately starts acting more serious and direct about his real feelings and problems

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Papyrus is the only major character to not have some kind of resolution to their story. I feel like he'll be so much more important in Deltarune.

[@BoredChild5823]

Especially considering how calling yourself “Papyrus” in Deltarune gets the same reaction as calling yourself “Kris” “Susie” or “Noelle”

[@H........8]

@@BoredChild5823And (I think) Noelle was made to do that BEFORE Ch 2, so Papyrus might be important in any upcoming Chapter.

[@torchdreemurr4082]

@@BoredChild5823 what no papyrus has the same reaction as people like sans toriel and berdly

[@kingdedede5570]

how does he not get a resolution? literally everything he wishes for comes true.

[@Chivecookies_domain]

​@@kingdedede5570 And it's all built under lies

[@ADuckWithAYoutubeAccount]

I personally think the thing about the Royal Guard Canine Unit being easily spared through petting can be explained away. Who in the right mind would try petting them during their training? It’s likely that Undyne didn’t realize how big of a weakness it is for them, since nobody in their right mind would think to pet them when they’re in combat

[@orianefaton1885]

True. I mean, to be fair, if I was in Frisk's shoes, I wouldn't try topet the royal guards, even out of combat. I am already afraid of normal dog (even the size of the annoying dog) so, don't put me in front of these dogs !! Good thing Frisk loves dogs. (also, on this note, had they tried the petting issue, I guessthey ould have put cats instead. Try to pet a cat when they are ready to figth, go ahead. Say goodbye to your fingers)

[@ryroller9394]

I honestly LIKE that Undyne does this. Not because I think it is the right thing to do, but because it shows both how Undyne has flaws and that good intentions don't always lead to good actions. I personally love these smaller videos talking about the less obvious things in Undertale, since much fewer people discuss them. Love your content and hard work!

[@Pacca64]

I think her greatest concern is that he can't deal a killing blow, and will try to befriend even the most heartless foe. If something truly evil fell down and went for the kill, he would never do the same in return ever, even for self defense. It's kinda sad, though, her plan clearly backfired; he's so desperate to join the guard that he hovers around the ruins and bugs anyone who pops out of them, making himself an obvious target, while she's all the way out in waterfall and can't protect him...

[@arlo9754]

i actually forgot about this issue because the majority of the fanbase doesn't even think to address it, but as you have said, the reason why undyne doesn't allow him into the royal guard is that she wants to shoulder the burden of killing humans by herself, and doesn't want papyrus to get involved

[@potatopotato3284]

Yeah and I think this is the first time I think I've heard someone mention that she doesn't confess to Alphys because if anyone's gonna get killed by the human it would likely be her and she doesn't want to break Alphys' heart and I just :(((((

[@orianefaton1885]

To be honest, I never quite knew what to think of this part, because I understand where Undyne is coming from, because her friendship with Pap, looks like a sibling relationship... but at the same time, I always wondered if it was really for the best, because it has its own problem. I am glad to see I wasn't the only one who thought so, since I never saw someone adressing it. @@potatopotato3284 Because I never did ANY run but pacifist, I didn't even know it was a thing. So, when I saw the footage, I was shocked. But, it kind of make sense too.

[@youtubebobguy]

Yeah I feel bad that Papyrus barely gets any endings where he's in the Royal Guard. 1 bad part is that he knows that he has endings where he isn't in.

[@MattGOnYT]

Honestly it’s really cool to see an analysis on this scene, since it’s one of my personal favorites in the story. I love how it both humanizes Undyne, showing how she cares for Papyrus’s wellbeing, while doing so in a way that still shows her being a flawed character. Obviously the lie isn’t right, but it really does feel like Undyne believes it is worth it, especially since she does manage to help Papyrus find new passions, even if the way she does so is clearly wrong. All of this doesn’t even go into what it does for Papyrus’s character, with the big thing being that it foreshadows his death in the genocide run, setting up how Papyrus tries to see the best in people, even if they may not fully deserve it

[@Dorked]

Yeah, like it fits her character well! Though his geno death is interesting because I think that on some level it was actually clever. If everyone else is dying, will fighting make a difference? So he makes his first action a plea of compassion (with the plan to fight if it comes down to it).

[@potatopotato3284]

true

[@LadyCorthon]

I remember someone else pitching this idea and it’s been in my head ever since, so I thought I might as well bring it up again while the topic’s still relevant. Make Papyrus a medic for the Royal Guard, if there is such a role. He gets to be an active member of the Guard as well as help/assist people on his team, aligning with both his morals & dreams.

[@DoubleBoost23]

Now I just imagine Undyne awkwardly realizing she could've done this and going _"Aw f**k, I can't believe I missed that"_

[@absoultethings4213]

Papyrus is great at nearly everything that isn’t getting the killing blow, this suits him.

[@ExtreamlySilly]

I remember seeing something where he teaches younger monster's and trains them... :3

[@Sofa2334]

That does make sense so maybe

[@beaufuller8222]

I hope this gets tackled in Deltarune, since the other dynamic (Toriel and Asgore) that have sone sort of major flaw going on that didn’t get fully resolved (you could argue that the credits where Toriel opens up a school and Asgore does the bushes for her means they made up, but it’s really vague and doesn’t really say much to us) seems that it’ll get this treatment. Of course, it’d be niche to do so, since Sans and Papyrus shouldn’t know anyone, but it’d definitely bring at least some closure, even if it’s not from the original. I actually hadn’t paid much thought to this until now, but after being pointed out, it’s definitely an issue. One of the things I really love to see from your content is the fact that you don’t pick the popular option, but the unexplored and hidden one that brings us down a new rabbit hole or see something differently. Sorry if this sounds like a ramble, but I really do mean everything I’ve said here. Hope things go well, Dorked!

[@Dorked]

I appreciate the kind words! I'm someone who puts a lot of thought into weird stuff like this. xD I think part of it is because I create fanworks, so I kinda have to look at the little details.

[@orianefaton1885]

@@Dorked This is normal. When you love something, you start noticing stuff. At first the somewhat big ones... then the smaller and smaller ones. And you start reading between the lines of the vague ambiguous info that some other stuff seems to imply to and all... and at some point, you realize you have dug so deep in the rabbit hole you can barely see the sun anymore.

[@borarora8741]

It always rubbed me wrong that everyone handles Papyrus with kid gloves. Especially as someone who's been sheltered from things (which I often already knew about) because people think I'm too "innocent," it's really frustrating to watch people treat Papyrus like he doesn't have the same right to basic respect and honesty as everyone else. I loved your point about Papyrus' self-control! I always found it so interesting that even Toriel could accidentally kill you, but there is no situation where Papyrus does. I think people (characters and fandom alike) mistake his propensity for kindness and empathy, for childishness and naiveté. But I've always preferred the idea that every action Papyrus makes is with a decent understanding of possible consequences, and he actively chooses kindness anyway! (ie the fact that he knows you might not change your mind in the genocide route, but still decides to spare you) I'm really curious to see how Papyrus is handled in DR, too. I think it's an excellent opportunity to really dive into his character in a different context!

[@monotoneheadphones]

I have a feeling that the whole lie surrounding Undyne and papyrus is going to play some role in foreshadowing something that is going to happen in Deltarune, since theres been a whole bunch of “history doesn’t repeat itself, it rhymes” kind of parallels between the two games. In fact, the whole conversation where Undyne confesses the truth about papyrus to you is my personal biggest tell towards the Knight Papyrus theory imo.

[@orianefaton1885]

Personnally, I think we aren't going to be shown Papyrus in Deltarune. For me, Papyrus is the character the closest to the moral of what Undertale was trying to tell you. He is, I think, someone that this fandom doesn't deserve, because of how much more popular, somehow, the genocide run is.

[@monotoneheadphones]

@@orianefaton1885 this makes me very sad, thanks!

[@JcoleMc]

@@orianefaton1885 He'll probably do a cameo in the chapter ending or something where Sans will finally let us into his room

[@H........8]

@@JcoleMcLike the sans room thing, maybe with or without those scandelous codes

[@waluigiisthebest2802]

I think this is kinda an example of “Toby forgot”. A moment where Undyne tells Papyrus the truth never happens, unintentionally seeming like the narrative justifies her lying. Another possibility is that since there is so much plot stuff going on at the later parts of the game, Toby simply couldn’t fit a dialogue like this in. For example, at one point you would be able to date Mettaton in his EX form, but you obviously can’t do that in the final game.

[@potatopotato3284]

yeah it just seems unfinished imo which makes undyne seem a lot worse. If I recall correctly Papyrus and Undyne in particular were wayy different from their original designs so maybe this was done later in development and not properly fleshed out?

[@hangingkind4619]

Really? I wonder what other stuff was cut from the final product

[@redactedinfo8557]

​@@hangingkind4619originally Papyrus was a Redditor who wore a fedora and was a huge fan of a show called "My Little Boney..." Toby changed that because he felt it was too mean spirited and honestly thank God

[@Scolipendra]

I agree, the game really should have addressed Undyne's lying. Puts a damper on Undyne's and Papyrus's interactions. What's especially weird is people who are against Alphyne claim _their_ relationship is based on lies, when Alphys's lying was really white lies. Undyne leading Papyrus on like that is a far worse lie.

[@Dorked]

Alphys lying about anime still wasn't great, but she at least confessed to all of her lies. Just bums me out that we didn't get Undyne just... being honest and letting them talk about it in the epilogue.

[@orianefaton1885]

There are people that do that ? Like, no matter if we talk about "anime is real" or about the lies linked to the amalgamates, or even the Mettaton situation, all of those came from a place of care. Mettaton would not have had his dream body without all of it (which is likely what happened in Deltarune, since Alphys has no means to built the body) The amalgamates were an accident and... yeah, if you put yourself into Alphys shoes, how are you suppose to tell people this ? And... anime is real is just some small white lie, partly there for comedy sake.

[@Mik3l24]

I think that this is the line that contributed the most to the perception of Papyrus as "the precious, innocent cupcake", like you said in the Papyrus character analysis... because it's almost spelling it out.

[@reuniclus3621]

I wonder if a potential Undyne confession would've been in the Undertale Alarm Clock dialogue. It would've been really cool.

[@Beegsire]

Even ignoring the fact he's pretty much the strongest Guard Member (personally, I even find his fight a tad harder than regular Undyne), Undyne's lying wasn't right as much as her intentions were. Sending in a bunch of (quite frankly adorable) dogs that get easily distracted by a *stick* to fight and then saying one of the most powerful monsters cannot fight because he refuses to fight lethally in my opinion is pretty messed up. I know she just wanted what she thought was best for Pap, but I don't think lying to him was the way to go about things. She's still awesome, just most definitely not flawless. Then again, that was always obvious Also awesome video, anything involving Paprus is amazing, and you do a really incredible job of breaking everything down

[@Dorked]

Thanks! :) And yeah, she meant well, but manipulating him like that (and I doubt she was conscious that it IS manipulation), is just... she really owes him an apology, y'know? And it's sad to think he may never get it now that the guard isn't an issue.

[@Beegsire]

​@@Dorked Yeah exactly, even if she lied that long, she should've broken it to Pap maybe in the Epilogue, seeing as Pap wanted for god knows how much of his life to be in the guard, and seeing how much work he put into training. I still like her, I like all these characters. But it's very interesting seeing their flaws, and even more so looking deeper into them Also sorry to hear about you being talked down, don't listen to whoever said that, you're awesome!

[@Debater]

It's especially bad given that some of the dogs *don't even realize they're fighting.* Greater Dog's CHECK dialogue says that "It's so excited that it thinks fighting is just play" and that Greater Dog "is seeking affection". Lesser Dog "thinks your weapon is a dog treat" and "is really not paying attention". Undyne let a bunch of dogs that don't even have a clue what's going on be part of the Royal Guard, but not Papyrus.

[@lunanoirre]

The whole infantilisation of Papyrus always hits super close to home, because I relate to him SUPER HARD as an autistic person. This kind of thing happens all the time, and it’s always been a personal bugbear for me as well when it comes to undertale :[

[@ktostam35]

What makes this sadder is the fact that Papyrus was behind the window and even spoke once to get Undyne and Frisk back on track on befriending one another, meaning he probably heard Undyne talk about how she lied to him..

[@Napro_23]

"It's OK to tell a white lie to people as long as they are happy". This sentence fired off neurons in me because for a long time, Ralsei gave me vibe of a person with this exact mentality. I know its kinda theorycrafting, but maybe this exact mentality will get explored in Deltarune?

[@Dorked]

Funnily, I think I sorta touched on this in my recent Ralsei video? xD 'cause yeah, I can see it.

[@Napro_23]

@@Dorked Sorry, I meant to say that I this is a hope that Toby will probably take a look back at some thematic stuff in Undertale using Deltarune, so that is one of connections, did not mean to be derivative of your video (The goner vessel from chapter one for example screams at me "I want to take a deeper look at Frisk" but that may just be my crack theory)

[@Dorked]

@@Napro_23 No, no, you're good! xD I was just saying it was a funny coincidence 'cause I had similar thoughts.

[@Emperor_Creeper]

This is actually really sad to think about. I knew that Undyne was lying to Papyrus about this, but I never thought about it as in depth as you did. Now that I think about it, it's sad. The longer a lie is believed told to someone, the harder it is for them to accept the truth about things.

[@spookydood5500]

I wholeheartedly agree. To be honest, I really would have loved some kind of scene during the Pacifist ending in which we are able to see them make up. As said by another comment (and in the video), the whole "anime isn't real" scene as well as Alphys' honesty could have lead to Undyne realizing she should tell Papyrus the truth. I mean, I UNDERSTAND why Undyne would lie to him. We see how easily it is for A LITERAL CHILD to kill the strongest monsters there are, and Papyrus is... well... extremely lovable? That being said, I agree it should have been PAPYRUS' choice to make, rather than Undyne. I will say, Papyrus frequently lets it slip that he knows a bit more than he lets on. I wonder if, deep down, he knows that Undyne is lying to him? Maybe, given that whole "Papyrus is implied to be relatively lonely" storyline, he's willing to ignore that fact given his (implied to be) very deep bond with Undyne (which would make this situation even sadder). IDK! Just a thought. Great video, sorry for the long comment, XD.

[@BlazeWolf9511]

This is a really interesting subject. I won't lie, while lying isn't good, I kinda agree with Undyne. Papyrus and the rest of her team for that matter, are way too friendly to do what needs to be done when it comes down to it. I think she tries to keep him out of it because that's who she's become the closest with. But ultimately it doesn't stop papyrus from still going after the human anyway.

[@juliette32938]

I appreciate this video. I am autistic and relate to Papyrus because I am also someone with a reputation for being far kinder and gentler than most, and while it’s true, it leads people to act as though I am “a smol innocent precious bean” and are very condescending and placate me like Undyne did with Papyrus. This is why I always felt upset with that conversation Undyne has with Frisk. I love Undyne too and I think it should stay as a plot point but for Undyne to see the error of her ways as you said. It’s disappointing. I appreciate your content and all you do for Papyrus’s character, he is my favorite and my comfort character and I’m glad you show his complexity

[@ironlass5652]

I've never given this issue a good amount of thought before, and this video brings up a lot of good points. I never really noticed how strange it is that Undyne never brings it up to Papyrus, and we just...never get a clear and canonical answer. Its especially strange how Alphys' arc of coming clean is right there in front of Undyne's eyes, and yet the game does nothing with it. Combining these two arcs in a way, and having Undyne be inspired by Alphys' courage enough to come clean herself would be such an Undertale-y thing to do, but it doesn't happen, and I honestly think the game would be improved if it did.

[@orianefaton1885]

especially because Alphys had quite the empire of lies, and one of the biggest one was... well, the almagamates, and she still dares to confront it. This one especially should have moved Undyne into action, I think.

[@chongwillson972]

8:05 you should also bring up how sans also hides information from his own brother , ands hides away alot of his problems behind just being lazy and laidback... though sans also is not confronted about the truths he hides either...

[@amyhardwick8720]

Undyne is awesome, but yeah, it would be better to get to see her tell the truth. Papyrus deserves to know, even if it hurts him. I think he would forgive her for lying as well, maybe she’s even worried about that. Thanks for the video! This has always bothered me a bit too, but I never really thought about it.

[@moon4236]

I never thought a lot about Undyne lie to Papyrus but this is actually very interesting. I wish it could have been resolved in the epilogue of the true pacifist even if the guard was dissolved. I wonder if part of the reason is because seeing Papyrus' attitude gives Undyne hope and she doesn't want to lose that?

[@sillyswrdd]

I always assumed Papyrus _knew._ like, when he left the hangout, I thought he was just hanging right outside, still in earshot. He just acted like he didn’t so Undyne wouldn’t feel bad.

[@potatopotato3284]

Undyne's my favourite character in any piece of media, period. And I love the Papyrus too, so their friendship is near and dear to me. So watching your character analysis videos I was really hoping you'd do one on her at some point cause I'm pretty sure none exist on youtube. So when I saw this in my recommended, I was a little conflicted cause I've seen many people say they hate the character entirely because of this flaw, which I thought was extremely unfair, so I was glad to see the way it was discussed in this video. I really don't think that Toby thought about it much, and it's sad that it exists because it seems so... Off from the rest of the messaging in undertale. I really wish he didn't include it or if he did, flesh it out a bit more and make Undyne confront him and apologise or something. It kind of reminds me of the King Mettaton ending with how out of left field it is. So I guess this is a thank you for talking about how weird this is and even why Undyne might act this way without hating on the character but still acknowledging their flaws.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, an important thing with this video is I didn't wanna outright bash Undyne. I like her a lot! But I also think this one aspect of her role in UT is just unfortunate in its execution.

[@ethanotoroculus1060]

It's funny though. I actually really rather dislike Undyne _(for completely separate reasons)_ and I still felt as though I got a lot out of this video the first time I watched it. It's funny how that approach worked out.

[@1no1.]

​@@Dorkedin relation to the original comment, do you think you may end up making an Undyne analysis at some point in future?

[@jyulqasob698]

that's pretty sad that characters see papyrus as naive when he's actually really aware and he's just kind person

[@vilkristproductions6772]

Everything Everyhwere All At Once moment. A movie that has innumerable similarities to Undertale

[@crowlowin4330]

I’ve always thought Papyrus was underestimated but the whole ‘he’s a better fighter than the majority of the royal guard’ thing never even crossed my mind! Great video with a lot of great points! Edit: The worst part is that Papyrus would’ve forgiven her. There was never a point that she was too deep in the lie. Papyrus would’ve been hurt, and sad, but he would’ve forgiven her because that’s the kind of monster he is

[@r.ipeter6445]

Here's a possibility for the dogs to be royal guards. Maybe they joined the guard before Undyne so she had nothing to say in the matter

[@wittygrumbler8888]

awesome video, you are one of the few people to still make Undertale contend and you also manage to provide thought provoking revaluations of this game. i feel like your videos are actively scrubbing away the Brain rot of the fandom tainting my perception of these Character. not that that was such a bad thing but it is nice to remember them for who they actually are instead of the almost caricature that they are often portrayed as.

[@welshflower]

...I honestly never thought about or considered this. It had never occurred to me that this is one of those lingering threads in Undertale...

[@Gencinnamon245]

This makes me think back to the Disbelief AU, where I think it makes sense with Papyrus’ character on paper: Papyrus eventually realizes that they’re gone forever. Sans, Undyne, all of them, (except for Asgore cuz I keep forgetting that you fight Asgore after you defeat Sans) are gone and they’re never coming back. Papyrus wants to forgive us but he constantly second guesses himself. Papyrus doesn’t really seem to have a happy ending in any form of Genocide AUs. He wants to impress people and is easily hyped up, only to figure out for himself that it probably might not even happen. Yeah, Undyne should’ve told him, but she doesn’t really want to crush his hopes and dreams. Papyrus seemed like he really wanted to join the Royal Guard and Undyne allows him in, but due to his kindness and how he’s treated, Undyne doesn’t really want him to know the truth. Nobody wants to tell him the truth, because honestly? Who would want to make Papyrus cry? But that’s the problem, because it allows for people like Flowey to manipulate him and reel him in, his first ever friend. He may be kind and a pacifist, but he’s not dumb. Sometimes, he may be blinded by kindness, but not completely. He knows how to fight, but he doesn’t kill. Papyrus is like the shield and Undyne is the sword. Undyne gave him the opportunity to be famous Flowey gave him the one true friend that he needed And the rest gave him the support that he needed Bittersweet, but sad in a way.

[@ChaosEnthusiast]

the way it was sugarcoated so much could have also contributed to why papyrus is misunderstood as a character

[@FusionForceGabriel]

I wonder if you'll talk about gerson too, he's another underated character and not so many people give attention to him, poor old turtle

[@Dorked]

GERSON IS SUPER NEAT. I think he'd be fun to talk about. It's just there's not quite as much as other characters. Granted, that might make a fun mini-vid like this.

[@normalhuman9878]

I love Gerson. I nearly cried when I found out what happened to him in Deltarune

[@vjcoconutsluv26]

If you think about it, its kinda sad that everyone lies to Papyrus because they feel bad for him. I do feel like he is actually capable of being really good in the royale guard, but everyone overlooks his talent and only thinks about how "Innocent" and "Carefree" He is, and that leaves us not being able to see his full potential. During Sans' final attack, he references Papyrus', but, as you know, the dog came in and stopped it from actually happening. I feel like Papyrus could be actually super powerful, its just hes never given the chance to show it off. It's not like Mettaton where he knew what was going on and he was being manipulated, Papyrus is completely left in the dark for this.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Even then, said “lesser” attack is still multi-stage and complicated to no-damage anyways. He has, at least, demonstrated his strength to us by said lesser but still complicated attack.

[@Soundwave342]

I think a video talking about Sans’s mental health despite how he acts on the outside would be interesting, since most of the undertale fandom mischaracterizes him so much, either making him too serious and emotional or not serious and super happy. And it would be a good video to discuss some of Undertales more darker and serious hidden themes.

[@Simeo905]

I don't need to speak of THAT tumblr post that speaks of papyrus not moving ONCE during his entire boss fight? "the most energetic character, not moving ONCE?"

[@massimocorleone8179]

This friendship is strangely relatable, which is both interesting and sad. What would happen if there was a sudden change of events in the middle of *any* route that forced the revelation of the truth? Would the results be different from what we've seen in the pacifist ending?

[@Dorked]

Yeah, it's interesting to imagine what would happen if the truth was forced to come out. Shame we don't have much to go off of there. I bet Flowey told Papyrus in at least a few runs.

[@GoldenMineYT]

I feel like this essay video taught me something other than undertale lore. I like I've learned an actual lesson. This is a really good video. Great job 👍

[@zottorus6176]

i never considered how messed up it was for undyne to treat papyrus this way, but you make a lot of good points. it makes me happy that we as a fandom are growing to realize that even our favorite characters from undertale are flawed (as people, not through writing). really loving your videos lately, good job :)

[@Oceane1803]

This is an interesting point of view, but considering all that you said, I think that it might just be that Toby Fox just didn't think about that. He's an incredible writer, but I feel like people often forget that he's also human, and therefore not perfect. He can make some mistakes in his writing too. It can be seen as part of her character, but you're right to think that this should have been adressed but isn't in the end. But let's not be too harsh on Toby for it. He still made one of the best experiences of storytelling and of character writing there is out there, and that's already one heck of an accomplishement.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, this isn't me saying Toby made a bad game. It's just that as a result of this (whether unintentional or intentional), it leaves an aspect of Undyne and Papyrus' friendship feeling a bit uncomfortable to me. It's entirely likely that he just didn't think about it. It's just that I feel like even with that in mind, it's okay to discuss a work of media and issues within it.

[@Oceane1803]

@@Dorked I know you're not saying Undertale is a bad game. I saw your other videos and it's pretty clear that you love this game. I said that for anyone who may read this. I very much understand critcism that comes from a place of love for something. I do exactly that with Pokemon, both the games and the anime. Say, I was reading the comments and I saw you mention how Papyrus is relatable for people which ADHD, and as someone who's likely autistic, I see where you're coming from. So you think that he could be autistic, with pasta being his special interest ? I remember how you mentioned in your Papyrus video that he has quite the extended knowledge about all kinds of pasta. Looking back at it, it screams special interest to me. Also having almost no friends because you don't fit in the norm is very relatable too ^^' So Papyrus is an autistic headcanon ?

[@Dorked]

@@Oceane1803 Tbh, Berdly, Papyrus, and Alphys all read as pretty darn autistic or AT LEAST some kind of neurodivergent to me. Papyrus also has a huge interest in puzzles, too, so like... yeah. I can totally see it.

[@Oceane1803]

@@Dorked Yeah fair enough. I can't believe I didn't see it until now. I mean Alphys has always felt very relatable, especially recently with all the anxiety and lack of self-esteem I'm dealing with (sorry if this is getting too personal ^^')

[@gryfon_gamez8184]

I have a personal headcannon that papyrus was still outside her window when she told frisk about not want papyrus to join the Royal Guard and overheard it Then he decided to forgive her as he understands her reasons and just never brought it up

[@dylanzlol7293]

To be fair papyrus does come back to convince undyne to befriend you if you directly tell undyne that you dont want to fight her and that you just want to be buddies

[@DrawciaGleam02]

I read a fan comic where that happened some time ago!!!!

[@gryfon_gamez8184]

@@DrawciaGleam02 if only I could drawer

[@nickeel8401]

In my head, Undyne lies to pap so pap stays the same. Papyrus is too easily changed. He became a cooking madman because Undyne was trying to get him to focus on something else under the guise of royal guard training. He relentlessly patrols the streets to the point where he views resting as slacking (mainly with Sans). Pap works so hard to become a royal guard that he neglects his relationships outside of Sans and Undyne, its why he has so few friends, while Sans seems to have the entirety of Snowdin. Can you imagine the change that might occur in Papyrus if Undyne said “You can’t join the royal guard cus you’re too nice to ever kill a human”? We might just get something like Underfell as Papyrus changes to try and fulfill his dreams. In my head canon, despite it being a lie, Undyne lies to Papyrus to protect his innocence

[@Dorked]

The thing is, he's really not that innocent. Dude knows Undyne wants to kill humans and is willing to draw certain lines regarding his own morals. He knows Sans lies and keeps secrets, and he totally sasses at Undyne on some of the phone calls. He is eager to please, too, but I don't think Papyrus would go full on fanon Underfell because of it. And either way, the lie still isn't very kind.

[@nickeel8401]

@@Dorked No it's not very kind. Maybe things will be different in the deltarune timeline? Yunno if Pap is there at all

[@coreDesignix]

Papyrus is so incredibly competent and focused at what he does and people constantly act like he is dumb and childish. He's upbeat, kind, and has some trouble with sarcasm at times, sure, but those aren't dumb or childish traits! His treatment like this makes me very sad :(

[@You-Tube-n5k]

I remember this bothering me too and it ultimately led to Undyne being one of my faves lol. Like, idk, it adds a lot of dimension to her as the guard captain who wants to keep everyone safe, but also someone who has people who are close to her that she won't be completely honest with because of that mentality. Or maybe that's just my own interpretation. Great video btw!

[@Kaylee-Bear]

Given what's been discussed in this and the Papyrus video, I think Papyrus is dangerously close to becoming a people-pleaser. He seems to code-switch to quite a large degree when Sans or Undyne are around, while sounding almost apathetic (at least in comparison) when it's just him and the player. He doesn't see anything wrong with changing his personality so drastically, which is extremely concerning - especially when Sans and Undyne seem to treat him like a child when he needs to be treated like an equal.

[@Dorked]

YEAH, he's 100% a people pleaser. It's interesting how he ups his seemingly innocent, naive vibes around Sans but when it's just him and Frisk, it's a bit different.

[@dylanzlol7293]

Sans doesnt treat papyrus like a child?

[@Dorked]

@@dylanzlol7293 Sans is weird in that he talks up how cool Papyrus is, but he also like... still sorta has a habit of hiding things from Papyrus, which Papyrus is VERY aware of, and lies to Papyrus about his friends being "on vacation" in neutral runs. Papyrus is aware of the lie (see: King Papyrus ending) and doesn't open up until he's sure Sans is gone, where he drops the cheery facade and opens up about how he really feels.

[@dylanzlol7293]

@@Dorked i'm sure itd be hard for people to tell their brother that their friend killed undyne. And to be fair, sans may hide things from everybody, with an unknown motive, but undyne lies to papyrus, sans simply has secrets like a lot of people have. Its not like sans's vague secrets are as important in papyrus's relationship as undyne's lies.

[@capn_toad]

​@@dylanzlol7293 it would be hard, yes, but it's still pretty infantilizing to lie about something like that. "Oooo no they're alive they're just on vacation" is the kind of thing you'd tell a young child when their dog dies.

[@fossfox]

I think it mostly boils down to the state of affairs in the Underground; the idea that the monsters were ever going to leave was becoming fleeting to most, and letting Papyrus believe he was a member of the royal guard was a mostly harmless white lie that brought him a big amount of fulfillment. Undyne probably didn't like lying to him, but stomping out his spirits when so little optimism was to be found anywhere probably didn't seem all that ideal either.

[@cornewallace]

Papyrus won't even kill Frisk in the genocide route despite knowing how dangerous they are, Undyne probably recognized that Papyrus despite being a very strong monster doesn't have what it takes to fully capture and take their soul. Even though he does show restraint, he doesn't ever notify Undyne that he's captured a human, and after getting captured four times, he becomes Frisk's friend forcibly and goes OUT OF HIS WAY to help you through Waterfall and even LIES TO UNDNYE HERSELF. Look, I believe that Undyne lieing is bad and that there should've been a scene between them addressing that BUT, Undyne sees that Papyrus even though they are friends and he has good fighting skills, don't have the guts for the job (pun not intended). Papyrus has shown himself in many dialouges to be more perceptive than people give him credit for but what holds him back is his naivety. Not to harp on this single point but genocide. He believes that Frisk can change even though they've been slaughtering monsters everywhere they go. Last point, Many people have been told lies like this before where for example, your parent telling you that you can do or will receive something but it never comes.

[@Tulip_bip]

undyne's reasoning makes sense to me. he proved that he would stop at nothing to become a member of the royal guard, but if he did then he would very likely end up dying. he refuses to kill you no matter what, and every single outcome of his fight results in him sparing you, leaving himself open to being killed instantly. the only possible outcomes for fighting him are him sparing you, which would go against his job, and him dying

[@Dorked]

That doesn't excuse her lying, though. That's the entire point of this video.

[@SamiTheAnxiousBean]

This is COMPLETELY unrelated but your voice is EXACTLY how I imagine Alphys sounding, your digital name is fitting :3 Great video BTW!! Also glad someone else finally brought up that papyrus would be a stronger royal guard then the other guards!

[@slimeheadgamer3569]

So, I'm very late to the party, and I agree with everything you said. One interesting thing I was thinking about was how Undyne's description of Papyrus matches a lot with her perception of Asgore - both of which are powerful monsters who tend to be pacifistic. You mentioned how Undyne may not want to see Papyrus fight, and I think that's probably correct, giving what she saw Asgore went through in his decision to fight the humans. I'm not trying to justify her behavior at all, but I find it interesting to think about how she may subconsciously be trying to protect Papyrus from Asgore's fate. I think it's pretty likely that she's not worried that Papyrus won't fight back, but that he will.

[@ClonedGamer001]

Now I want a dramatic fan comic where Papyrus confronts Undyne about this

[@TheAdvertisement]

Honestly? This is part of the reason I love the geno route. Not you being evil and killing everyone, but because of how the main characters react, often showing the most heroic sides of them. Ex. Undyne being able to revive herself as a true hero, and Mettaton putting his ego aside to defend the Underground. And then there's Papyrus. Despite you seeing him mainly as goofy in the Pacifist Route and not taking him seriously, even possibly agreeing with Undyne that he can't join the guard. There's hints at his greater character there, but it's only really noticeable if you're looking for the details, combined with how tough he actually is (like how you pointed out his ability to prevent himself from killing you shows true mastery over his attacks). The rest is largely hidden in the neutral routes and the genocide route. Maybe it being passed off in the Pacifist ending is intentional, maybe Toby didn't want to wrap up every single character's story, maybe he wanted to reward people for noticing the intricacies in his characters and realizing the True Pacifist Route isn't _perfect._ Or maybe he's just human and simply overlooked this. But god that genocide scene. It's genuinely so heartbreaking, and like you said it has genuinely stopped people from continuing. Papyrus is his most heroic here, but unlike Undyne and Mettaton who give their all to fight, Papyrus opens his heart up and in his bravery, faces down a genocidal maniac with only words. I do think Toby definitely wanted to go for something bigger with Papyrus's character under the surface. Yeah, Papyrus can be goofy and a bit oblivious (even if some of the neutral endings seem to confirm he's aware of the consequences of your killing and doesn't actually fall for the lies people tell him), but he also has some strong moral convictions and doesn't have a pure because he's ignorant, he has a pure heart because he stays strong despite the tragedy. That's possibly my favorite part of Papyrus's character. By the way, for anyone that reads this and loves these parts of Papyrus's character as much as me: Go read Handplates. It's a webcomic that explores Papyrus and Sans's origins, and while it has a ton of angst, it's also great at showing Papyrus's morality. Highly recommend it.

[@meowmew-]

Great summation, but if i may add something Mettaton's heroism doesn't stem from simply trying to fight you like Undyne or Sans; he never tries to attack you in the no mercy route, NEO form or otherwise, because he knows he couldn't stand a chance. His backstory of being a human-eradication machine was a lie after all. Instead, he plays to the strength he does have, showmanship, to intimidate you and stall for time with threats and a flashy new form while Alphys evacuates everyone she can. In a way that makes his final stand even more heroic, since he knew he would certainly die if he stood against the deadly human yet did so anyway on the chance that a few more civilians would be able to escape.

[@ExValeFor]

I think the real cause of the discrepancy is Toby very often goes for funnies in place of actual characterization. The canine unit really shouldn't be literal joke enemies (or royal guards), but since he was REALLY into his ideas for all sorts of dog jokes, and that it'd be funny if they were royal guards and yet still acted like dogs, he went through with it even if it made Undyne's words about papyrus seem very strange. I personally accept that it's more an issue of the dogs being presented the way they are rather than papyrus and undyne's relationship

[@owengonzalez6819]

I used to wonder about this myself. You covering this in way more detail was really cool to see!

[@berry-blue-soda]

Something I never thought about before. It's awsome I'm still hearing new takes about undertale in 2023

[@Dorked]

Happy to provide a fresh perspective. :) I'm someone who tends to overthink a lot of this stuff, and it can be fun to talk about.

[@LoLo-l3t]

I feel like even if Undyne eventually told papyrus the truth, he would brush it off cuz he loves Undyne as a good friend. It may hurt him, but I feel he values friendship too much for him to allow this lie to ruin this friendship.

[@ellamayo9045]

I’m glad to see a video on this! For me, it’s definitely off putting that this isn’t seriously explored in game. Personally I think that Undyne lies because 1) She doesn’t really understand Papyrus, and like many others, can’t fully see past his goofy and tame exterior and understand his true strengths, despite being close friends. And 2) I believe Undyne, to some extent, realizes that leading Papyrus on like this isn’t a good solution. In this instance, her admission of the lie feels more like a confession of personal weakness rather than a defense or justification. Because true pacifist is all about strengthening your bonds with those you’ve encountered, Undyne’s confession symbolizes how much she trusts Frisk, revealing a personal weakness in the presence of a former adversary. While it is a shame that we never get to see this resolved, I don’t think the game necessarily justifies this behavior, even if it is often played for laughs.

[@godslaughter]

You were on the right track when you said Undyne didn't want anyone else to suffer from battle, and placed it all on herself. There's a reason why she's labelled as the True Hero, because she is. It is the mentality of someone who's seen war and doesn't want others to have to witness it as well. It doesn't necessarily only mean preventing Papyrus from getting hurt, it also means preventing Papyrus from getting too mentally scarred. She doesn't want him to change. It's clear she really adores him as a friend and would rather put herself in danger than him. It might feel condescending and it is a little bit, but I understand why.

[@Sean-qg3gg]

I have some things to add: Papyrus’s stats are higher than Undyne’s, he takes more vines to be constricted by Flowey, and him being unable to kill you is more skilled than Toriel, especially since the goal is to capture for Asgore, not kill. So when Undyne says he’s tough, he’s actually outright stronger than her. Not her Undying form though. However, I feel Papyrus can have his own DT form if Undyne got her’s from her facade to be tough for everybody else, since that’s what Papyrus does too, except to put a smile on everyone’s face. I feel the only reason he didn’t get a DT mode is that his message wouldn’t get across, when he had legitimate faith in the human. I remember rewatching Jacksepticeye’s playthrough about a year ago, trying to spot new details or remember why I liked characters the way I did. I was expecting a fun time with Undyne, but instead I realized how mean she actually is. I realized Deltarune’s take on her isn’t actually de-characterizing her…

[@jannaluh9874]

Undyne stats are higher than Papyrus', check the wiki

[@Sean-qg3gg]

@@jannaluh9874 Not in the checks

[@floydwabag]

It’s nice when people don’t talk about the same 3 characters every now and then

[@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_SUPAHSTAR_WARRIA]

I like you discussing character dynamics that fly over most people's heads. I wonder what others there may be out there.

[@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep]

This might be the very first criticism of Undertale's story and character writing that I've seen that feels deep enough to consider seriously. It makes a lot of sense

[@hkayakh]

I remember seeing an undertale fan comic that basically said “The royal guard is made up of almost dogs. Do you really want Papyrus the SKELETON to be joining it?”

[@user-oj5ms5ij6k]

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I came to the same conclusion back in 2016 when I first played the game, and wondered if anyone ever thought the same. I love both Undyne and Papyrus (especially) a ton so it was so disheartening that such a detailed was skimped, it's bothers me to this day. Anyway, I love the video and am on a mission to watch more of yours! Hope you have a great day!

[@cacaumassipanoficial6203]

This is similar to something that happened in One Punch Man even though the motive was different: Saitama is the protagonist and he got so strong that he can defeat everyone with a simple punch, but until now it's hard to understand how he got that strength, and he has a "disciple" called Genos, he is a cyborg hero who wants to be as strong as Saitama and be trained by him, but Saitama doesn't know how he can do that and doesn't want to let Genos down, so he decides to give Genus a goal "for now". Saitama doesn't really intend to train him and gave him this task to spend time, but he doesn't actually have a way to train him and what he makes up about training the mind is in fact true since Genos' body is mechanical, so giving him a goal that can actually help him improve in battle doesn't seem so bad. But it would still be good if he told Genos the truth, specifically since at the moment the two are really friends and even though Genos has a lot of respect for Saitama he would understand.

[@Dorked]

Yeah, though it seems like at least with Saitama and Genos, it's a bit less "I'll just distract them with something else". Still seems like honesty would be good, though.

[@Tylerr_Creative]

Honestly the more I think about why Undyne lies to Papyrus I really agree with your reason regarding Undyne wanting to avoid putting the burden of pain and stress though maybe it’s just me but I always saw the relationship of the two being a younger sibling looking up to their soldier older sibling and wanting to be just like them. Even if the younger sibling understands what the results of it are the older sibling wouldn’t really ever want to put that level of pain of stress on them. I do feel there should’ve been a scene of Papyrus learning the truth though I kinda get the feeling Papyrus would be less upset about Undyne lying and likely understand the reason she did it

[@samanthakelly718]

Honestly, looking back at the game, it's kinda disturbing how infantilized Papyrus is by most characters. He wants to join the royal guard and prove he can by capturing you and bringing you to Asgore who he doesn't even know will kill you. When every other royal guard character tries to kill you, Papyrus thinking he can shirk around the idea to become a guard convinces me he's been deliberately misled about the implications of what one HAS TO DO to be a guard. Undyne lies to him about why he can't be a guard, once more, leading him on. She knows Papyrus is strong but never considers exposing to him what he might need to change about himself to become a guard. I doubt Papyrus would become a killing machine, but she never even offers him the opportunity to take on such a responsibility for a job he clearly really really wants. And like... why??? Why would she care about Papyrus killing? It gives me the energy that she doesn't want to "corrupt" this grown-ass man. This and sans blatantly lying to Papyrus in some neutral endings about his friends dying (they're on vacation🙄) is even grosser. What, does he think Papyrus can't handle the truth? Papyrus takes the deaths of his friends in stride in the routes where he knows the truth (well, not in stride, but he's pretty mature and level-headed about it, no more immature than Undyne's immediate turn to genocide when you kill someone she doesn't know in the "only kill Toriel" ending). To make matters worse, the "King Papyrus" ending has Papyrus wait til sans leaves to express his frustration. He's not the completely pure always bubbly buddy everyone, even his brother, thinks he is, but he's hiding his true feelings because that's the role he's kinda forced to play by the lack of information he's given. Papyrus deserves better. Ttyl; despite Papyrus being a pretty emotionally mature character despite his childish interests, he's lost in this constant state of ignorance because his friends and family deliberately leave him in the dark about things that matter to him because they don't think he can handle it.

[@lotussness]

Pypyrus is a really fit monster for the royal guard. The way some other monsters veiw him though changes his chances to join and make his dream! That's sad- he makes efforts to his traps and puzzles even if they aren't as good or effective. He's clearly stronger than how the others perceive him to be and knows much more than anyone tell him. Sure he can be oblivious, like how he trusted flowey. But he's still a great monster for the royal guard. I know after freeing everyone his true dream was to ride a car ((and feel the wind on his skin and the breeze hit his hair)) but I really wanted to see him have a happy moment of joining the royal guard. :( but then again if he were freed anyways then his dream would've been useless. Eh, just my thoughts?

[@iminsideyourwalls7002]

I really like this video, but, i think something you missed is that papyrus is the only monster that wont kill you. Even with Toriel you can die. And sure with frisk that doesnt really matter if your playing pacifist, but monsters dont really know that. For most of them, they probably assume humans are bloodthirsty and will do anything for survival. That seems like what they've been taught, they've been taught to be scared and angry at humans. A parallel to how humans view monsters as, well, monsters. So Undyne not expecting the other royal guard members to be wooed makes a lot mroe sense. She doesnt worry about them because the possibility doesn't even occur to her. Its likely she just assumes the human is going to come in swinging, like what we get w/ genocide assuming you don't do betrayal kills. I think this puts a lot more validity to her motives, Papyrus is the only royal guard that will try to spare you with no pushing from frisks side in a genocide route. And if you do end up killing him it's just proving Undyne right. I definitely still think theres a lot of holes in her logic. This doesn't necessarily make what Undyne good but definitely makes it more logical on her end.

[@birdrun4246]

That's a really interesting observation, never thought of those lines this way.

[@galacticknight55544]

This reminds me of my theory that Papyrus knows about the other timelines. In the Pacifist ending, he says it's the "worst possible ending," which implies that he knows about the game having multiple endings. If you kill him in Genocide, he says he knows you can do a little better, which implies that he knows about the Pacifist timeline. And if you kill him in Neutral, he's pretty chill about it. It's like he knows the game will be reset and he'll be brought back to life. This would also explain why he's not worried about what happens to Frisk after they're captured. He knows they'll just reset if they die.

[@Cheese-Slime-Sheriff]

I love how Papyrus is genuinely a good royal guard, one of the best. He’s strong, he can control his magic greatly, he isn’t easy to sway, he has a good sense of justice. Most of all, he doesn’t try to take your soul, he tries to take YOU. He seems to hope that YOU can live after they use your soul to break the barrier.

[@isaacengelking3259]

I once saw a comic that had a pretty good alternative reason for Undyne to not want Papyrus in the royal guard. More then half of the members that we see are dog monsters, and Papyrus is a skeleton, and the dog monster members of the royal guard might see him as a bunch of chew toys stuck together. I know this is never implied in-game, but it makes as much sense (if not more) as Undyne's canon reason for lying to him.

[@featherskullzz]

sans and papyrus seem to be on good terms with the canine unit, as sans when he enters grillby will sometimes throw the dogs a bone

[@isaacengelking3259]

@@featherskullzz Fair enough, but I still enjoy the image of Papyrus getting hounded by the canine unit that the comic I mentioned portrayed.

[@TaskMaster369]

I don't know what to say here, I just started watching the video, I'm just commenting to support this channel. Edit: The dogs being weak part is fair.

[@mistycomet9760]

Excellent video as usual, and it's about a subject that's painfully overlooked. I didn't even give it much of a second though until you pointed it out. As for relationship dyanmics I'd like to see discussed, I am interested about your thoughts on Toriel and Sans. Their relationship is very based around laughter, good feelings, and respite from the rest of their lives. It sets a fascinating stage for their friendship, especially since they didn't even feel the need to know each other's names for seemingly a while until they met face-to-face. Kind of reminds me of the stuff I've heard about "Moirails" from Homestuck, I think is the fandom. People rarely discuss the two outside of shipping them and while I don't really have an opinion on Soriel their friendship within canon would be a fascinating discussion.

[@mikko5471]

I can't believe this flew right over my head for so long. This was a very interesting video, I really enjoyed it, keep it up!

[@scrungly_hank]

as much as papyrus deserved the truth about the royal guard stuff, undyne is flawed ina perfect way as much as asgore or toriel or anybody for that matter in undertale are, they have true problems with their own way to cope with it or deal with. still i respect your opinion i just hope you consider this also in your analogy. edit: also the reason of her not letting papyrus know the fact that he cant be there is she doesnt want him to get hurt because of his kind heart. and even if that is a bad thing it is really not ill willed and actually cares about him so i wanted to mention that too.

[@lancerspade8016]

Imagine how messed up it would be if there would be a chapter where papyrus is play Able as party member. And you can do Alternative Route. It would be lying to Papyrus all Over again.

[@QuelendUnderground]

I've always had some belief that it was due to character writing that made papyrus a much bigger 'soft goof' in some fan works compared to actual canon, but i see now that that might not be the whole picture. Sans, although it isn't as bad, do have a form of protectiveness over his brother - WHICH MAKES SENSE. He's worried that his brother might get himself hurt if he's too kind, but he doesn't discredit papyrus fully though, and neither does Undyne. She personally says she really does think he has the power for it, but yet, because of his kinder side, think he isn't cut out for the job. Both Undyne's and Sans' way of talking about papyrus cause this weird effect, that sometimes 'what papyrus is like' comes partly from their in-canon opinion of him, and it seems to have an effect on how fans may have read him. Because it is out from their opinions of him that we hear 'papyrus simple isn't able to hurt anyone because he's too kind', and although it may be somewhat true, I do think that it definitely had an impact on how he is viewed. It's almost displayed as a fact that he's Simply way too kind to actual do any harm to anyone, even though he in game displays control over his power and even capability of improvisation when the dog stole his special attack. He's strong, but (according to 'fact' given by other character's opinion of him) he's trusting and therefore can be read as naive. Even though he most certainly isn't, as you've somewhat displayed in the video. That was just my quick take on his situation. Great video, on an honestly a very underdiscussed topic.

[@Lunarcreeper]

3:16 wait i didn't know about that alternate version of the dialogue, that actually confirms he has blasters holy heck, the other one was a pun, but right here he was literally being serious.