STOP KILLING CHARACTERS AT THE END OF YOUR STORY -ft Harry Potter, Ratatouille, Full Metal Alchemist

[@Uniquenameosaurus]

Just in case, i've added the name of the manga I talked about to the banned words list. If you wanna talk about the manga, just don't refer to it directly and use spoiler warnings so you don't randomly spoil it for people.

[@anshagrawal254]

c'mon dude its an almost 15 year old manga. Anyone who still thinks they want to read it , wont watch this video

[@mathis8210]

So you are so afraid of spoiling a tiny info on a manga that you dont even leave people a way to find out the manga and read it?!? But then you mercilessly spoil the entire endings of an anime and a movie like its nothing?

[@cameronwilsey9334]

@@mathis8210 He gave warnings for them and they are hardly recent either. If you're really upset about things over a decade old being spoiled just stay far away from the internet or any social interaction

[@thekerminator6521]

I just wanna know what manga it is so I can read it lmao

[@Uniquenameosaurus]

@@mathis8210 Its just cause the first couple of top comments are totally random, and if someone randomly name drops it without any thought it could spoil people. I just want people who are going to name drop it to do it very deliberately, You can spell out like this if you want: -DON'T CLICK READ MORE IF YOU DON'T WANT IT SPOILED ////////////// WARNING. SPOILER FOR WHAT THAT MANGA IS CALLED.//////////////////////// C.h.a.i.n.s.a.w.m.a.n

[@samrichardson5971]

I forgot how little grieving was done in the books because I’ve read enough fan fiction that does end up diving deeper into it all!

[@tomtheconqerur]

@@cake_made_of_bacon3710*looks at RWBY*

[@m4nycrunchypickl3s]

All The Young Dudes :’)

[@lucasgamezz140]

@@cake_made_of_bacon3710 Like most of the Sequel trilogy fanfictions. They straight up write Rey and Kylo better than the fucking writers at disney.

[@24thsagitta]

@@m4nycrunchypickl3s yuppp

[@Minceraft69]

@@cake_made_of_bacon3710 So true. Once I had an argument with some dude in a comments section who thought that all fanfiction was just grammar-mistake-riddled garbage written by unskilled amateur authors and horny people. I mean, some of it is, sure, but some of the absolute best and most high quality pieces of writing I've ever read were fanfiction. I feel like the fact that fanfic authors write because of sheer enthusiasm and passion for the story/characters instead of a money incentive means that many of them put more work, thought, and creativity into their writing than many professionals do (cough cough, Disney), which is why they often end up being so much better than the original.

[@MouseGoat]

"and they all died horribly in big magical tragedy" - J. K. Rowling 2 years from now, probably

[@Nico_com_c]

@@TaxFraudTutorials I tried to forget that last book existed, no thanks for reminding me.

[@crazydragy4233]

@@Nico_com_c Oh god I had totally blocked that out of my memory

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

*big magedy

[@augustday9483]

@@crazydragy4233 At least it made sense for Narnia since the entire series is a chronicle of that world's history, from Genesis to Ragnarok.

[@Nico_com_c]

@@augustday9483 It's still absurd and disappointing

[@SpacyCatgirl]

I clicked solely in this video because of needing to find out WHO DIED IN RATATOUILLE????

[@jaschabull2365]

Spoiler alert: It was Gusteau.

[@MigIgg]

@@jaschabull2365 But he died like at the start of the story, not at the end

[@natesmodelsdoodles5403]

@@MigIgg And the whole story is about a dorky noob of a cook and a rat not only trying to continue his legacy, but also trying to prove that he was right: anyone can cook. Without his death, that never happens.

[@TheAbsol7448]

I'm in the same boat.

[@emilianocarnaya1602]

Ego's career as a Critic

[@basedimperialism]

"Stop killing characters at the end of your story!" *[Araki disliked this]*

[@alfa01spotivo]

i honestly never had a problem with how he did it. Stardust Crusaders, Stone Ocean and Steel Ball Run have bittersweet endings but they felt so satisfying at the same time and very emotional

[@vazazell5967]

Yeah not a single death in araki stories was worth it imo.

[@marsupialmole3926]

@@alfa01spotivo Stardust Crusaders yes, Stone Ocean and Steel Ball Run not so much. The important death in Steel Ball Run is done well, but it's coupled with a bunch of other deaths that feel like the deaths in Harry Potter. Also Stone Ocean hurts me in how much it drops off a cliff at the end

[@PsydeON]

@@marsupialmole3926 I'd actually argue the opposite, SC's deaths are not handled very well imo. But hey, at least none of the characters got killed by a guard rail

[@vazazell5967]

@@alfa01spotivo dude i was talking first five

[@SmormuAfterNotSurviving]

When you mentioned Fred's death I was like : "Wait, Fred died?"

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

Just goes to show...

[@Lewisking50]

It was really only mentioned in passing :/

[@selahgray3388]

@LTNetjak It's Rem all over again.

[@selahgray3388]

@LTNetjak It's Rem all over again.

[@TheZanzibarMan]

Oh no! Anyway...

[@thestormwar]

I forgot this, but when I was reading the last book of HP, Hedwig's death was so random and almost out of place that I literally believed it didn't happen or was a fake out and by the end of the book I just went into permanent denial it ever happened until I finally watched the last movie and accepted that version the better cannon. The book death never happened.

[@Kriliska]

Same x.x

[@Nukestarmaster]

I must of glossed over the entire death, because I didn't even remember reading that Hedwig died in the books.

[@the_last_ballad]

There is a theory that Snape intentionally killed Hedwig as she was a major give away of which Harry was real. But seriously, you can turn a desk into a pig and rocks into dogs, as well as change the color of things(both animate and inanimate) but getting 6 white colored owls, not even needing to be identical to Hedwig but just close enough to pass at a glance from a distance, was too difficult?

[@Kriliska]

@@the_last_ballad I assume it was simply overlooked but it was a dumb mistake indeed given the possibilities.

[@fightingfaerie]

@@the_last_ballad I thought all the fake Harrys had plush owls in cages, at least in the book. Though I have to agree it is one of the few times the movie is better. Book: Hedwig dies for no reason, in a cage and plummets to the earth still in the cage. Then the real Harry is revealed because he uses Expelliarmus. What? Horrible. Movie: Hedwig was set free to meet up with Harry later, or just be free. She chooses to give her life to save Harry. Because Hedwig, Harry's known owl, sacrifices herself for this Harry, then its clear this is the real Harry. Sad, but meaningful. Actually makes sense.

[@VJArt_]

"the point of charachters dying is realism in a war or battle" People mourning them is also realistic

[@luminous3558]

The thing is that at that point you might as well show the deaths. Deaths are great when they happen on screen in that moment so having them just be a footnote after the fact is very unnecessary its like not having your cake and not eating it either.

[@VJArt_]

@@luminous3558 yea agreed

[@wolftitanreading5308]

To be fair at that moment there was a lot of shit going on to actually mourn and all

[@thomasjeppesen3055]

I mean, was it really necessary to explicitly state how every character felt about someone dying in the last book? I think J K Rowling already did fairly well with developing how Harry was affected by the deaths of his parents, Cedric, Sirius, Dumbledore and Dobby. Letting the book drag on way past the point of the conclusion seems very unnecessary to me. We can let our own imaginary fill out the blanks if we please.

[@wolftitanreading5308]

@@thomasjeppesen3055 agree

[@adscrypt]

Would argue that Dobby's death was fairly well-handled and thematically reasonable. It had impact and motivated Harry in critical ways.

[@nessyness5447]

And he had to die, house elves are in general more magically powerful than wizards. Now, the house elves at hogwarts kitchens wouldn't dare to fight in a wizards war, unless someone orders them too. But dobby would have...and with him alivex he may have talked others into it, and that would have been a big power up for the good side.

[@peavizzle]

@@nessyness5447 pretty sure the house elves did fight in the battle of hogwarts

[@nessyness5447]

@@peavizzle there is no mention of it that i can remember

[@nessyness5447]

@Sleevies i didn't remember that. Weird decision, honestly. I don't see most of the house elves agreeing to fight unless thet get a direct order from whoever they consider their master at the moment. (given most of them were of Winky's opinion on the matter of house elves rights)

[@jaschabull2365]

@@nessyness5447 To be fair, I think the most recent headmaster of the school at that time had just died and hadn't been replaced, so perhaps the power vacuum could be taken advantage of if Kreacher could talk them into it by saying that over all, the elves serve the school, and the school needs protecting. (to be honest, the weird part is Kreacher being the one to lead them, considering how he seemed to agree with the Death Eaters on far more than he did Team Harry)

[@skibot9974]

I never realized how Fred Weasley isnt mentioned once after his death. It’s extra baffling as Fred and George were some of the the first wizards Harry met only beaten by Hagrid, Ollivander, and Draco (with the latter meeting only occurring in the books)

[@Creative_Welshman]

Umm in the 1st book a random wizard meet him long before Hagrid did and he was also familiar with Miss Fig (I think) who was a squib all before he got letter.

[@skibot9974]

@@Creative_Welshman Right. I guess I didn’t count Squibs

[@thomasjeppesen3055]

Personally, I don’t find it baffling since at the end of the day, Fred was only a side character. A good side character but still a side character. The narrative of the book really had a lot of other things to wrap up instead, like Harry sacrificing himself, Dumbledore’s backstory, context for why Harry survived, destroying the last horcrux, defeating Voldemort, deciding where the Elder Wand should go and the epilogue. That the mourning of Fred and so many other characters got lost in the mix isn’t surprising, because did we really need it? Isn’t it fairly obvious how the coming time will be? A lot of mourning but also a lot of celebration; a generation of students who would grow up traumatized and never forget what happened at Hogwarts. It’s the sad aftermath of any war but in a series originally targeted for children, I can definitely see why Rowling would tone down the sad feelings in the ending and leave it to the readers’ imaginations.

[@betelgeux6010]

@@skibot9974 nobody ever does

[@betelgeux6010]

You forgot quirrel tom and doris fucking crockfort

[@Wuffskers]

it's interesting, before watching this I just saw a tweet talking about how Pixar is really good about giving a non-ideal but still happy ending, very rarely in Pixar films do people end up getting what they wanted initially, and often that thing is actually out of their grasp completely by the end but they've learned or gained something different over the course of the film that leaves them just as content if not more-so than if they go what they originally wanted.

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

That’s just a good storytelling basic. Before writing a character, figure out what they want, and contrast that with what they need. Conflict comes between the two.

[@psychomanatee3459]

That's why I think monsters university is sometimes overlooked. Sure, say what you want about the humor and side characters and whatever, but Mike's arc into not achieving his dreams how he planned, but still finding a different route to climb his way up the ladder into a different career just as desirable is a great message

[@СтепанМельников-у4х]

I really like Onward ending, when protagonist gives up the only opportunity to meet his dead father, because he felt his brother needed that more.

[@KOTEBANAROT]

Thats just bog standart "want vs need" story lol pixar didnt invent it

[@klop4228]

@@KOTEBANAROT but they do it well

[@firefly5934]

Writing tip: When you kill off a character and people think “wait they’re seriously dead? What the hell?! WHY?!” rather than sadness, if that's not your intention, you’re doing it wrong.

[@the-birbo]

i disagree 😄

[@leahflops9425]

@@the-birbo ok

[@dylandarnell3657]

@@the-birbo You have the right to be wrong.

[@the-birbo]

@@dylandarnell3657 opinions aren't right or wrong, just agreeable and disagreeable

[@HeilRay]

On the other hand, people are stupid. Cause all it takes is fan favorite dying even if it was beautifully done for the story and set plot points into action, they'll go "WTF, 'Character' DIDNT NEED TO DIE! DROPING THIS SHIET STORY! 1 STAR!"

[@raynegruber5368]

On the topic of deaths having closure and actually allowing the characters to grieve: Maes Hughes is the perfect example. He may die early, but the rest of the series is soaked in the reactions to this death. Even up to the last dozen episodes, where Mustang has to restrain himself from going fully mad and getting his revenge.

[@Waterbottle_s]

Yup, his death effected the story in a multitude of ways, Mustang had another goal once he died and he also snapped (pun intended) like you mentioned. When the true intentions of the antagonists were revealed it was neatly tied back to why he died, and the effect it had on the characters were great.

[@lv26Phoenix]

"It's a terrible day for rain."

[@Merkhahba]

Insert Envy's Execution Here

[@just-trying-my-best-everyday]

"He left Hogwarts the same way he entered: hitting his head on brick." I snorted then started sobbing.

[@Conflict-ff5pi]

Your idea about red shirts i think carries some weight. Like for example, Colin Creevy and his brother, that annoying kid who took photographs of Harry, he snuck into the battlefield and died very easily. It hit hard because it was tragic, but we didn't miss any closure because we barely knew him. Hogwarts is full of potential characters we've seen and heard around but don't actually know, who can get killed off without losing anything in the story and still establishing that the stakes are very dire.

[@Manganization]

Colin Creevey is not a red-shirt though. A red shirt is a character whose only existence is to be killed off. They are almost never established characters and usually are just conjured up a few moment before an event. No one feels sad for red-shirts. Colin Creevey hit hard because he was already a character who existed and interacted with Harry multiple times since Chamber of Secrets. There are some situations where a developed side character can become a red-shirt, like Neji from Naruto, as he was largely missing from the series for a very long time and only reappeared to be killed off.

[@waffleweirdo1252]

I really liked Colin ):

[@user-jn1wm3tb8v]

@@Manganization I'd say he was a mauve shirt. Not a huge character and on the tertiary but we knew him a bit. Also Colin's brother is alive

[@forestgrump4723]

There were ACTUAL red shirts in the book though... I believe she sums up the death toll at some point and it includes "200 unnamed witches and wizards"

[@Treyxb3]

@@Manganization Neji! T-T

[@bookishnewt8468]

7:10 - 1. Hedwig's death represents the end of Harry's childhood. I- what? Shouldn't that be Cedric's death? That felt more of an end to Harry’s childhood. Everything changed after his death/Voldemort’s return.

[@snock5487]

I do understand what he's saying with that, but the death could have been WAAY better explored if only a certain brit had 1 or 1 thoughts about it beforehand

[@HiperPivociarz]

There's a reason people make fun of red shirts, it kills the stakes if we know only the unimportant characters will die.

[@master0fthearts894]

I respectfully disagree. There’s plenty of stories where no one dies period, and those can still have great stakes if the stakes are reasonable. If you simply want to have a story like that, but it takes place during war, having red shirts can simply be the way that the author says: “Yeah, a lot of people die in war, and it’s worse for the protagonists now, because they’ve lost their comrades.” That being said, having them all be generic foot soldiers makes it feel less like the story is killing characters and more like it’s just giving you word vomit on characters you don’t care about. But those are the badly-written Red Shirts- the red shirts that were written to be cannon fodder and nothing else. Y’know those “Minor characters who died in a badass way” that he used in his FMA:B example? Those were red shirts. They were minor characters that you can easily kill, but it doesn’t feel cheap because they have character, so even though their role is small, it doesn’t feel like you killed off some ‘generic army’ with no real reason to care, and the second reason it works is because they actually accomplished something. They damaged the main villain, gave the heroes more of a fighting chance. The minor characters from FMA:B were red shirts and they were awesome, which proves that the trope isn’t a bad trope at all.

[@HiperPivociarz]

@@master0fthearts894 Yeah, I'm not saying you have to kill characters to add stakes. I'm saying if you rely on the red shirt trope specifically, you can become very predictable. And I wouldn't call the minor characters in FMA:B red shirts. Red shirts by definition are generic footsoldiers and cannon fodder. That's why I am opposed to relying on them. It's good to have some generic soldiers who you see getting killed left and right sometimes, I think the finale of second season of Wakfu does that with the Sufokians, it allows you to show how the fight is bigger than just the main characters, and how the bad guys are powerful and can just rip through people.

[@master0fthearts894]

@@HiperPivociarz I see your point about relying on Red Shirts too much can make the story predictable and boring, and I agree with it. I also agree that using them in certain points of a story can work well, and sometimes them just being cannon fodder is all that they really need to be. The reason that I disagreed with your comment was because it seemed like you were saying it was bad generally, (Mainly because it wasn’t explained as clearly as your reply was) and because it seemed like it was a counterpoint to Uniquenameosaurus’s suggestion to use red shirts in place of killing Fred and the two side characters with no need to die with no benefits of dying. Now it’s clear that it’s not, and it just that your point didn’t come off as clearly in your original comment. I disagree with you that the minor characters of FMA:B were not red shirts, but that mainly comes down to how you define red shirts. I define red shirts as “Any protagonist-aligned character created so that they will die.” For example, there’s a lot of minor characters created in survival stories to simply be killed off and show the danger of the monster, situation, environment, etc. Those characters still have character and quirks, (I.E. not nameless, faceless soldiers) but they only have a small role in the story so it’s no real loss when they’re gone. You define red shirts as “Character’s who are generic and faceless with the purpose to be killed off.” Which covers a much less broader range of characters and is mostly the generic foot soldiers for the good guys. I’ve referred to TV tropes to see if there was an objective definition, but from what I can tell, it’s a gray area between the two definitions that we have. So I agree to disagree. So yeah.

[@marocat4749]

Depends on the writing. If you genuinly manage to make the loss felt, it can work. Or as mentioned in a dangerous fight they do something noteworthy against a scary overwhelming villain. Yeah like any trope, if you do it, give that redshirt at least a memorable trait and some loss felt. Or joke. Them ending as meme isnt th worst fo a redshirt.

[@TheLithp]

This is probably my biggest point of disagreement with this video.

[@UmTois]

It just makes me mad that there are people who say fma Brotherhood/ manga ending ""sucks"" because it's a "happy ending". Having gore and kill count doesn't make good writing, you know? People who say that are just expecting superficial shock value and don't give much of a damn about buildups, meaning or purpose about it. It was a excelent ending indeed.

[@senritsujumpsuit6021]

Theirs a anime i watched were pretty much everyone one fuking dies and then they geymt to ghost fight

[@CursedCatTruffa]

Yeah, also, the Elric suffered enough? Like, more suffering doesn't mean the ending will be better or more significant, some stories won their happy ending

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

Edgelords gotta edgelord.

[@Shmu82]

I never even realized Hedwig, Professor Lupin and Fred died on my first reading of the book because of the breakneck pace, I was too busy trying to make sense of everything and didn’t absorb it Then years later I was reading the wiki and was like “WAIT, PROFESSOR LUPIN IS DEAD??”

[@bookishnewt8468]

The way Rowling described Lupin and Tonks' bodies, I thought they were sleeping. Then I see Lupin among the spirits the resurrection stone summons. I stopped reading for a minute to double check if I missed something.

[@kojideer1918]

@@bookishnewt8468 omg same. I had to stop and go back because I hadn't realized that they had died in the first half of the battle. I was so confused ;-;

[@erraticonteuse]

@@bookishnewt8468 Yep, did the exact same thing.

[@MugdhaMahdiShams]

Yeah sorry, not buying it. There was like a whole chapter dedicated to Harry talking to Lupin, Sirius and his parents' ghosts and you found out he died only after a wiki? Bullshit. You oughtn't be that desperate for likes man.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@MugdhaMahdiShams People can miss things in books without being liars

[@gameinsane4718]

The Wikipedia article about redshirts with a dead redshirt captioned “a redshirt in its natural habitat” makes me appreciate the fact I am watching your video instead of just listening to it

[@marvaz5073]

That article is actually from TVTropes, not Wikipedia. Just thought I'd tell you 'cause that website's hilarious and you (or anyone reading) might want to check it out.

[@rociomiranda5684]

I'll never forgive her for killing Hedwig. When my cat died I was in mourning for six months. I still get tears in my eyes when I think of him. Hedwig was Harry's best friend, the first creature who loved him after his parents died. His grief should have been shown in some depth.

[@dylandarnell3657]

I feel like you're either forgetting Hagrid or misusing the term "creature" there, but yeah. Hedwig deserved better.

[@dylandarnell3657]

@Fremen Be silent. Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.

[@Troublethecat]

@Fremen You've clearly never owned a pet before.

[@falconeshield]

@Fremen Watch out everyone we have a badass over here

[@Troublethecat]

@Fremen Humans are animals too. You can value a pet and feel like it's a part of your family and get really broken up about it's death without thinking of it as the same as a human. I do think it's a bit silly when people call their pets their children, but pets are a part of our lives and depend on us and bring us joy. For most people it would be impossible not to get attached. I honestly feel sorry for whatever pets you must have owned.

[@gamingninja1384]

"Like a knife in a house elf, closure is VITAL." Never knew I'd laugh at a joke aimed at Dobby's death so much!!

[@RevereShin]

As a citizen of the “I had ‘great ideas’ but never wrote anything down” club, this concept/opinion/ramble/ideology sounds pretty... concrete. Then again I’m also part of the “I’m a fucking sheep” club so almost anything that doesn’t directly oppose my views will probably resonate with me anyway. But this definitely makes me want to strive for more in my imaginary stories.

[@ddd-op5wy]

based

[@robertwyatt3912]

That’s not called being a sheep, it’s being open minded

[@nopenot6704]

@@robertwyatt3912 i don't think it is tbh

[@AstraIVagabond]

Relatable~

[@TelviGaming]

can relate

[@DrZaiusDrZaius-xp5fw]

Good video. You have no idea how much I hate it when people say "X character should've died at X scene for emotional impact" with no regards to how said death would affect the actual story. There's a time and a place for killing off a character, and it's all about context.

[@KaimArgonarEyyyy]

Hohenheim's death was amazing, made me bawl my eyes out multiple times when you get to see his content smile and then the OP Rain hits. Fucking hell.

[@BigStrap]

Noticed the pfp- hard to believe the 10 year anniversary is coming up. Time flies.

[@Waterbottle_s]

Dude Rain combined with the visual scenes they added made my heart shatter

[@jordanholt9170]

The idea of using "red shirts" to simulate consequences is something that should be done with care. If the only people that die in a conflict are nameless fodder, then the stakes of the conflict don't feel as high. Killing characters that we know and care about is a great way to ratchet up tension, but as you said, the deaths need to mean something.

[@DeathnoteBB]

You can raise stakes without killing main characters though

[@CMGThePerson]

Invincible Season 1 doesn't kill any major character (except Donald and of course, The Guardians of the Globe, who are pretty much just redshirts in their own right) and only kills redshirts in it's climax. And It's pretty famously gut-wrenching and disgusting

[@empireyouth5791]

OK I’m sorry I am actually to respond but this is a complete misconception. The problem is that you assume these writers would kill off an “important character” instead of a red shirt. Which will never happen millimeter just going to kill off “side characters” and they themselves become the new red shirts. if an author wasn’t going to kill off an important character and substitute it with a Red shirts, having no red shirts just means no important character is dying.

[@meogatopreto]

Sincerely, Fred's death shocked me to the core. Being a twin I always unconsciously feared the possibility of my sister dying first than me, even when we were kids, and then HP rubbed this fear in my face when I was a teen, so without narrative purpose. I know it was what the author meant, to show that war take lives blindly and just because, but not giving mourning and proper closure to those who perished in the last book makes their deaths in retrospect look just like cheap chock value. And I think that seeing George's mourning process and recovery would make me more calm about my own future.

[@JRexRegis]

Lots of authors have this weird conviction in their heads that death is a "natural" ending to various character arcs, like for redeemed villains, or for revolutionaries. Harry Potter definitely cranked it up to 11, with lots of people literally just dying offscreen for the shock value.

[@phalamy9180]

I feel a lot of this comes from people not wanting to put in more effort. Villian Redemption deaths for example often come because the author doesnt want to put in the effort of actually redeeming them.

[@Greil9]

For some redeemed villains it may be necessary. If the gravity of their crimes is such that you couldn't imagine them ever again being accepted by society again, going out on a heroic sacrifice might be for the best. Like try to imagine Vader living after he destroyed an entire planet just to make a point in Episode IV. Everyone would call him a monster to the end of his days.

[@JRexRegis]

@@Greil9 I'd _love_ a redeemed Vader living under a false identity on some backwater planet, and the new main characters stumble upon him. What do they do? Do they out him, to be killed? Do they hide his secret, despite the crimes he committed?

[@Greil9]

@@JRexRegis I feel it would be hard to have a secret identity as Vader given his obvious and instantly recognizable mask and suit, both of which he requires to remain alive.

[@younggamer7218]

@@Greil9 well it depends. He could just go to a planet which is uninhabited

[@Mylkzi]

Growing up, I was an AVID Harry Potter fan who re-read the books yearly. And when I revisited the franchise recently, I realized I’d completely forgotten about Mad-Eye Moody’s and a few other characters’ death, since it literally came out of nowhere and then nobody talked about it afterwards.

[@jaschabull2365]

Wasn't there a brief side quest about Harry et al taking Moody's eyeball from a looting Umbridge's office?

[@Mylkzi]

@@jaschabull2365 oh yeah! I guess I just didn’t register that as him being dead lol

[@jaschabull2365]

@@Mylkzi I think he's explicitly described as having been killed defending one of the decoy Harrys in the initial transport scene, though, so it was established he was dead by that scene, making it a payoff to the moment he actually dies (albeit offscreen as well).

[@mimijeet9921]

Honestly mad-eye's death hit me harder than Fred's death on my second read. I wasn't expecting it and it just came out of nowhere. Personally, I think it was handled very maturely and really liked it. He was also mentioned when harry and his team were at the Grimmauld's palace when they tried to get into the house.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@jaschabull2365 The eye in the door was more painful than his actual death, which is probably bad writing

[@thelegend8570]

Honestly, FMAB's ending was a fucking masterpiece.

[@thek_king]

Whats fmab?

[@puskywastaken]

@@thek_king Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood

[@thelegend8570]

@@thek_king FullMetal Alchemist: Brotherhood

[@datdude888]

I mean, FMAB was just a masterpiece in general. The beginning middle and end were all just, nearly perfect

[@lainiwakura1776]

I'd dispute that, but I saw FMA 03 when it premiered on Adult Swim. I think we can agree, if you saw both dubs, that Maxey White does a horrible job as Al and doesn't beat an actual 12 year old boy, like Aaron Dismuke. I would prefer Al sounding completely different over a woman making him sound like a woman. Also Hohenheim's and Scar's original VAs are better fits.

[@Conflict-ff5pi]

I think a big thing that bothers me about so many people dying in the final fight is that it usually feels artificial. Yes, its the biggest fight, but the amount of death is so skewed compared to the rest of the series that it feels odd. Like think about how many people died during the battle for hogwarts. Then think about how many people died during the battle at the ministry, or the battle in book 6. Those fights were smaller yes, but the same characters were still involved, its just that in the final fight they got their plot armour turned off. There's really no reason Lupin should have survived those two situations but still died during the final battle unless you actively establish a specific situation where he gets taken down or sacrifices himself.

[@nessyness5447]

Lupin didn't die in the ministry, because sirius did. And in the battle in book six, they needed to focus in dumbledore's dead. Even if lupin, tonks, fred, etc, are loved chatacters, they not nearly as important as sirius and dumbledore for harry. But still are important enough dor harry and his friends to feel direct pain and mourn after the battle of hogwarts. Still, the most relevant dead there was snape's, because it revealed information to harry. I do think however that killing both tonks and lupin, was unnecessary.

[@GuineaPig361]

Good point! I think he should've died taking down Fenrir Greyback.

[@thomasraines1396]

All of the Order of The Phoenix should’ve died in the fifth book: they get taken down like complete chumps.

[@jovanym2931]

@@nessyness5447 Fred was more important than Cedric yet he got better treatment

[@the-birbo]

JK Rowling is a bad writer and Lupin is a bad character that symbolizes how she views the LGBT community.

[@walkerx1813]

3:50 This joke eulogy is entirely in line with his character, he would have actually loved this and I'm pretty sure George probably said something like this at his not shown/described funeral

[@Ven-zg3fj]

This is a great, great point about fiction in general. Killing characters off unceremoniously seems like a great way to raise the stakes And perceived maturity of the story by giving it a “anyone can die and anything can happen, these characters dont have plot armor.” But glossing over deaths often results in missed opportunities for emotional character arcs that would actually raise the stakes and the maturity of the story. I also like the idea that you should treat your characters with more respect than that. They are indeed precious, if not to you, the writer, then to many an anonymous fan.

[@an8strengthkobold360]

Honestly I think the message is less, "don't kill characters" and more "give death proper weight".

[@alyastastic]

>considering killing everyone at the end of my story >get notification that this video was uploaded immediately after geez okay i get it

[@younggamer7218]

@smelly paws well it depends on the story you are trying to tell. I mean just look at dr strangelove

[@jordancorgatelli9292]

@@younggamer7218 and cabin in the woods

[@younggamer7218]

@@jordancorgatelli9292 yeah they are both great

[@nessyness5447]

I think it works if it's a horror story

[@TripleBarrel06]

​@@nessyness5447 Works really well if your core message is about self sacrifice or camaraderie too.

[@Xartab]

"What is the point in an off-screen death?!" The point is the horror of war. Life becomes cheap and you lose your friends while you're busy trying to save them. And no, I doesn't work if you kill redshirts, because then the audience would have a layer of detachment from it that completely undercuts the message.

[@seguaye]

maybe in a tv show or movie, but in a book your experience of the story is filtered through the protagonist. you care about a death if the narrator cares about a death, and if a death happens off-screen in a book that means the main character didn’t bother thinking about it. if what you’re going for is emotional impact, you’re really trying to sell the senseless death and violence of war, killing some red shirts and letting your main character feel the horror and grief despite not knowing them well is much better than killing an important character, mentioning it briefly and then immediately forgetting about it for the rest of the story. there is no horror of war if you’re literally in the head of a child soldier and it doesn’t occur to him to grieve

[@letsbenice5778]

For me, there were only two times I was sad that a characterd died, Maes Hughes from Fma/Fmab and Kamina from Gurrenn Lagann. Both happend in the middle of the series and both showed the consequences of their death, which i f*cking loved, still sad though.

[@ehhorve857]

have you watched jojo? if so, thoughts?

[@gwendolynstata3775]

Maes Hughes and Nina & Alexander traumatized an entire generation of weebs and they're STILL not ok.

[@letsbenice5778]

@@ehhorve857 I haven't watched jojo yet, but im planning to.

[@ldcg106]

What about Greed? I loved that guy!

[@chantrellebrown8313]

@@gwendolynstata3775 I still can't get over Nina death fuck

[@bradens.3125]

i think "value your characters and their impact" is a damn good lesson all around. great video, unique!

[@Ryanin2D]

As a full time author, this is an interesting take to listen to

[@characharayong]

When Hohenheim died smiling and the OP song starts playing at just the right lyrics everything combined into one beautiful scene and I cant hold it in anymore and cried

[@Thelnquisitor]

(read til the end) I don’t necessarily agree that closure is necessary for all characters but I fully admit that you have some valid points on character deaths that happen to late. The problem for you may have been that to many important people were killed at the end so any amount of grieving that was given had to be split amongst them. I still think that it was sad for the right reasons but I think I get it. HOWEVER! Dobby’s death was NOT a failure! Truly heartbreaking and for all the right reasons. If you don’t believe me, go read the scene that follows it. Rowling never wrote better than she did in that scene. Harry feels the death of this person in a very different light and learns so much from it. Dobby is properly grieved and you can’t argue the contrary.

[@nessyness5447]

Agree, dobby's death was well managed and it hits hard because he was just such am innocent creature with such a blind faith in harry.

[@balderharbo1666]

I've never cried more over a character death than Dobby's death.

[@gechoman44iwantahippo]

I have a rule when I’m writing: Don’t kill the character until their story is done. Otherwise, the story could get less interesting, and I ALWAYS get tempted to resurrect them to actually finish things.

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

I think I'd like to see more stories where death means something wacky. Like, imagine a story where not only can death be cheated, but death's explicitly established as cheap in first few pages. Character dies at the end? No more important than going to work or stopping by a supermarket to get cookies.

[@LowIntSpecimen]

Not a book, but Destiny's guardians kinda have that. They can cheat death, and there's a group of them which willingly off themselves to get visions of the universe, and the PvP mode is actually canon and is just a sport.

[@drekiskrek5008]

Dragonball lol

[@teuthistalks1487]

@@drekiskrek5008 That's immediately what I thought of as well lol

[@86Fallowcp]

Dark Souls, or well most of Miyazaki's works besides Sekiro which he didn't write most of it.

[@oliverp3545]

This was Transformers G1 until the movie came along.

[@villekuronen2171]

I didnt even remember anyone other than Fred died in the war lol

[@FabbrizioPlays]

It's really insulting the way they just get rattled off and then forgotten. People try to excuse it like "yeah it's a war, it's thematic or some shit" but Harry Potter is not a series about war. It's not Saving Private Ryan or The Things they Carried or anything even remotely like that. It's semi-urban fantasy with mystery elements. People cared about Lupin. They cared about Tonks. Hell, they probably almost cared about Colin Creevey and Lavender Brown. You don't get to suddenly become "a story about war" temporarily just to excuse killing beloved characters and offering the reader no chance to say goodbye.

[@ashley-i3f]

Wait, Colin Creevey and Lavender Brown died?

[@FabbrizioPlays]

@@ashley-i3f Blink and you miss it, literally.

[@thomaszloi9444]

@@FabbrizioPlays ughm no Harry Potter isn't about war but war in Harry Potter is one of the biggest and important events. You can't just ignore it

[@Ieam0309]

@@thomaszloi9444 ...like, you can't just ignore major character deaths.

[@chaoschannel3428]

"Stop killing characters at the end of your story!" **laughs in Akame Ga Kill**

[@TheMartyredextras]

While I understand that you didn't include it because it wasn't really relevant to your point, I just want to point out that another reason FMAB's ending is fantastic is that this whole conflict began because of people trying to sacrifice blood for magic and even the elric bothers' involvement in it began with them giving their own bodies in a forbidden magic ritual, but the end has Edward giving up that magic to get his body back and then literally uses that now complete body to fist fight the God of magic and he absolutely kicks his ass because the fool was far too reliant on his magic and couldn't actually fight for himself.

[@kennethmorgan8795]

Ehem: Get up you novice. I'm about to show you how outclassed you really are!

[@HeroTen10]

Shit, remembering FMAB's ending also made me tear up. Just goes to show when you've really made a good ending.

[@Fandangox]

Actually Tonks' and Lupin's death was explored a little bit, with Teddy spending lots of time in Harry's house and him being overall present when the next generation goes to Hogwarts, you can feel the impact his parents death leaves on him, and even Harry makes a comparison between Teddy and himself. The other deaths I can't really justify tho.

[@commander_frog]

This is why I kill all my characters at the beginning

[@k.m.m.a81]

so basically you're making a story about ghosts?

[@hyalophora]

Once upon a time, everyone died

[@Aquamoles123]

@@hyalophora the end

[@bjornthorsson4921]

@@k.m.m.a81 Hey, whatever sells, y'know

[@aurora_sleeping_beauty_]

@@hyalophora Me when I write a “book” when I was 10:

[@SithLordMalco]

I bet this topic is going to be discussed more when JoJo's Bizzare Adventure Part 6: Stone Ocean reaches its finale (in the anime)

[@alfa01spotivo]

I fucking cant wait for everyone's reaction to the ending

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

It's something all right

[@maagic2031]

I actually think Part 6 does this the best of all Jojo parts. There's a death at the half way point and about 80% through and they both get quite a bit of time to breathe on top of massively shifting the power balance in the villain's favor. Sure, there are a TON of deaths at the end, but they don't feel sprinkled in because they're mostly a consequence of the first 2 deaths. Plus, all the deaths have a sort of mini arc where the importance is felt. For instance, the 1st death in the final battle is someone who was acting as a shield for the other characters. That's not forced drama, major shit happens as a result of that character dying and a win could have been possible had they survived. This comment was super hard to write without spoiling too much

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@maagic2031 made in heaven is kino

[@dontburstmybubble686]

@@maagic2031 yo pick this shit up 👑

[@animeproblem1070]

the deaths in the manga you talked about were essentially designed to show the main characters lack of feelings towards death the empty pit of emotion he had in that point in his life the big death of i have no more time to give guy you know who shows him actually caring and how control freak brought back the empty pit to break the main character its all about the callousness being worn away from a characters soul only for the person responsible for it to take advantage and break the main character all the more the deaths weren’t pointless the ending of part one showed the setup for a more human main character

[@varionbrickel8709]

Well put, the manga in question has a strong theme of the difficulty with human connection, fear and affection are the primary motivators of everything in the story, with callous death contrasted perfectly with hugs that shock the system. It's about adolescence and coming to terms with pain and love.

[@magicfist482]

The whole international assassin's arc made it pretty obvious what the theme is too. Chapter 58 was especially important in showing what the story was trying to say about deaths.

[@thirdplanet4471]

What manga is that?

[@empireyouth5791]

What manga?

[@empireyouth5791]

Awesome to play devils advocate he was saying the death don’t feel important Or impactful to the “ audience” and only feels disappointment regardless of themes

[@lkun9051]

I never thought I'll see harry Potter, full metal alchemist and ratatouille is the same sentence

[@jacobfoxfires964]

I just think death being used is far too much of a cop out for some authors. Or story tellers in general. And some don’t really consider the consequences or really the effects. Cause they can go any which way and use death for some kind of purpose beyond shock value. Or at least a consequence. Like say if a loved one died, after the final battle the remaining one can take on both their dreams in order to honor the dead loved one. A friend ends up biting the dust and leaves the other friend something to make them more powerful than ever. Death of a good ally and it changes the perspective and views of another. Hell you don’t need to kill off anyone and give consequences. Like say a main character who gets taught to be less selfish loses both of their arms, but since they are so powerful now they don’t mind the loses of them and just has to live differently now. Or maybe leave it off ambiguously for some characters so that you can tell another story to wrap up their character growths. It’s that there is a lot you can do and sometimes the storytellers just don’t do that.

[@oliverp3545]

Imagine if some authors were willing to accept a world outside their main plot?

[@Rain-nm1ee]

@@oliverp3545 that why I love anime about word building, shows plot outside of the mc

[@PlebCentre]

"When characters are introduced, invested and killed shortly after" *Like a Puppet whose strings were cut* Also man ur videos are legit the shit, love the critiques mate.

[@Kuma5655]

On "that manga": I'd say having that revolving door was a part of the point. For as likable as some of these folks are, they're just another cog in the system for the real heads of the operation to use. There's occasionally room for sentimentality, grief and other complications for these characters. But the unceremonious deaths do paint a picture too for danger of the profession and what it says about those who steer the wheel in these operations.

[@karlazeen]

Maybe its cause cha- I mean "that manga" has a different goal in mind when telling its story.

[@ellog100]

I hated most of deaths but yeah, it definitely gets the point across

[@woolyd.436]

The first time they were TPKed I feel was for setting the tone and raising the stakes, and the darkness devil arc set up aki choosing to prioritize his time with denji and power, setting the reader up emotionally for consecutive twist. I works to further the plot and stakes and doesn't subtract from the story at all.

[@eggmcmuffin6067]

Yeah he missed the mark there. It’s just a part of Fujimoto’s story telling and I felt most of the deaths helped promote the remaining characters, and imo a lot of the deaths are well done

[@poggers4392]

i mean that manga came from an author that made "Water kick". Anyone who read Water kick would expect most things that happened in that manga just because its the author's unique style of story telling.

[@Osama-KIN_TMZ01]

2:33 "Now I'm not saying you should never kill characters at the end" Title: *STOP KILLING CHARACTERS AT THE END OF YOUR STORY* Bruv... This is either contradiction, or confusion... Or both.

[@Uniquenameosaurus]

Welcome to youtube

[@Osama-KIN_TMZ01]

@@Uniquenameosaurus Lol, welp still caught my interest and the algorithm's I guess... Good video idea either way tho :) Edit: Also I was just joking, I find it funny how much more aggressive the title is lol.

[@stopgenduh1690]

“Don’t always kill your characters at the end” isn’t as cool a title

[@Osama-KIN_TMZ01]

@@stopgenduh1690 True true, the original does sound cooler also a bit more clickbaity, but the one you said is a lot more accurate tho.

[@mrfreddorenton]

To be fair, if you read the manga author's previous work, he made a whole story about the fallout of killing a character and the emotional ups and downs.

[@junibuni1630]

whats the manga

[@mrfreddorenton]

@@junibuni1630 Geoff asked us not to spoil anything. But it was on the shonen jump plus website for a while.

[@goji253]

@@mrfreddorenton that's literally the broadest definition you could have given. You could just write "spoiler" , push enter a few times and then answer instead of being a tease...

[@mariosmatzoros3553]

@@goji253 You can just search it...

[@Gackt4awesome]

Bleach killed characters at the beginning and middle of the final arc but didn’t kill anybody at the end

[@haven4304]

Oh what Bleach did is one step further in the abysmal story telling steps Kubo REVIVED dead characters for the final arc As bad as killing everyone at end is, it's still not as bad as writing a character death, spent all the time on resolving the griefs, and then reviving them back in Bonus point if you revive a character in the middle, because congrats, you have now nullified any impacts a character's death would have in any future arcs *cough*fairytail*cough*

[@Gackt4awesome]

Except that mayuri pulling up the Arrancars was a payoff of the Karakura Town War arc. Plus he still had the technology to fix Gisselle’s zombie blood stuff. So it didn’t nullify the story

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@haven4304 dude he literally got death threats for killing byakuya. I think you can give the man a little slack. And also the fact that he was literally dying from an illness

[@johnnycage6676]

@@alfa01spotivo death threats from a bunch of nobody’s that won’t do anything

[@xBox360BENUTZER]

You need to consider every arc on its own, the story is over and a new one begins afterall just like you don´t count the hobbit deaths into lord of the rings. If you do there were plenty of deaths at the end of each arc so bleach is one of the worst examples you can give.

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

For me red shirt deaths feel cheap. Heavily dramatized death's like Dumbledore's or Sirius's make sense, but not a single one character. You can think of Lupin, Tonks and Fred's deaths as "yellow shirt" deaths. Not as heavy as if Ron or Hermione would've died, but not completely nameless. These people matter... but there's a lot of them. A LOT. And now they're gone, torn from your life. It's not like you can't grieve for them, it's just a whole chunk of your life is gone with them. Whole chunk of 'you'. I think war is a hungry and inconsiderate, like that. It would take and take and take and would make you numb to it... The only thing left is to move on, as much as as you can. However awkward it may seem. That said, I think I should clarify, I don't defend final battle deaths. I accept them... I think it is a valid authorial choice and I also think you have a valid reaction to it. You are free to dislike it, but you are not any more _correct_ about this authorial decision, than me. We feel what we feel.

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

Mind that, in life sometimes... often there is no closure and fiction has certain difficulties reflecting that. Sometimes fiction gives us closure, gives us what life couldn't teaches us, heals us... But sometimes fiction can cut us raw, show what it feels like, put us into others shoes, shows life as it is, teaches us and lets us know - healing isn't always easy. Not every bad thing in life is counterbalanced with a good one. World is not fair nor just and while it is nice to see it bettered, sometimes determination to do so is all we have.

[@Nkanyiso_K]

I'm Totally not going to kill my characters at the end *I made a whole KZbin video lulling you into a false sense of security*

[@clarencehemphill3403]

Imo if it's done well you can write your story how you want

[@TheHowlingEye]

Consider that for the Death Eaters, defenders of Hogwarts weren't just an obstacle. They were considered 'blood traitors' and dangerous combatants, since they formed the 'la resistance' of HP series and by that point were veterans of two wars. They were trained in magical warfare. FFS, one of them was an Auror. Their sole presence was a huge morale boost to what essentially a bunch of graduates and nearby townspeople. They were specifically targeted because of their tactical importance, family issues, personal hatred and for ideological reasons. A random red shirt shopkeeper or something from Hogsmead who came to help defend the castle would fight to defend Harry, but Lupin, Weasleys or the rest of the Order were fighting for their lives.

[@Yoxiv]

It is definitely a tricky situation to handle, since it would have probably required numerous additional pages to the book had every death really been addressed, and several minutes of scenes in the film adaptation. With that said, it is certainly a shame how there's only so much reaction to the deaths, and Fred's is pretty much the only one that really gets that, when Molly goes full mama bear on Bellatrix to ensure she doesn't lose another of her babies, which was fairly satisfying for sure, but only for Molly more so than anybody else in the series.

[@Avaruusmurkku]

This reminds me how I was annoyed at Senketsu dying at the end of Kill la Kill. Ryuko would have survived the fall without him tanking the re-entry and his death had pretty much no purpose and just happened.

[@Uniquenameosaurus]

OMG YES. HOLY SHIT

[@Drawoon]

If the characters in Harry Potter didn't marry their childhood sweethearts, who would they marry? Nearly every witch and wizard in England went to hogwarts, so there aren't many options.

[@TuesdaysArt]

1) Maybe they don't have to marry wizards? 2) Most of the students also stayed in their segregated houses and only talked to people from their house. Someone from Ravenclaw might not notice how attractive a Hufflepuff is until they meet in adulthood.

[@IamGrimalkin]

​@@TuesdaysArt And 3; they could easily have ended up with an unnamed character from another year. There were a lot of unnamed characters in Ginny's year besides Ginny.

[@skygazer6082]

As a kid I legit thought Hedwing's death was fake while reading. I thought she was just going to come flying back, any moment now. It just didn't feel real. And not in the sense of 'oh, there's no way Hedwig died, omg.' As in, it felt like, based on Harry's reaction, how it's written, and how no one acknowledges her death, it never happened.

[@2CPhoenix]

Loved watching this and wholly agree, but I have a counter argument: Rogue One

[@superraegun2649]

THANK YOU. So many people think that if I don't like a character death that I'm just coping, or if an author doesn't kill characters then they’re a bad writer or something, but when killing a character in a way that doesn't help the plot is just annoying. This is especially true when they’re an interesting character. The worst one is when an author kills a character because they clearly can't be assed to deal with that character. Killing characters just for shock value without any kind of reason why those particular characters were the ones to die (or some random abstract reason that doesn't really matter). The second is exactly why most of the characters who die in the final book seem to die.

[@Kreln1221]

*In keeping with the theme of the Wizarding War being analogous to WWII..., I feel that the inclusion of a few tragic deaths during The Battle of Hogwarts teaches people..., especially the young readers that the series was initially marketed to, that people die in war... Family..., friends..., good and dear people..., they get killed in war... It's not like in a video game, where you can always reset it..., or in the old G.I. Joe cartoons, where there were no deaths... War is horrible..., and it takes loved ones from us forever... It's good that J.K. Rowling has helped to ingraine that terrible truth into the minds of children worldwide... Once they've grown to adulthood, they'll hopefully be less eager to rush to war..., as they more deeply understand the terrible cost that comes with it...*

[@thebasementweeb4909]

That moment when you're really curious about which manga he's talking about but don't want to get in trouble... I really liked the video!!! As an amateur writer, this was really informative! Although I have more of a proclivity to torture my characters than kill them.

[@epic_franb]

There is a link to that manga in the description

[@Rynamony]

Anytime I think of a new character for a story one of the first things I decide, sometimes even before personality traits and design is "This one will make it" or "Oh you're gonna die for SURE", and if I decide they will die I often end building the character around that one moment. How will this scene feel in relation to their death? What will this trait say regarding that death? How should this character's relationship be with this other one considering the way they'll die? And so on. I often plan the end before the middle or even the start, so all my characters are heavily influenced by how they'll end as, but I think that's specially true when that end is being killed off. ...I'm not actually recommending that approach for anyone, it's just how I like to handle things.

[@sleepysera]

I wish I could do that, but at the same time, it feels too cruel to invent a character only for killing them off :(

[@hyalophora]

That sounds like a good way to go about it actually

[@kevintravers3988]

I respect your point that some of the characters dying in Harry Potter Deathly Hallows for tension, some of it wasn’t all handled well. I don’t think every death was poorly handled, Remus and Tonks for example I actually think was a decent one because it was a mirroring of Harry’s parents. One of the Weasly’s dying a shock on its surface however I think for the final book it is a case where you could do it and show the audience Harry’s closest allies are being taken from him during this massive battle. And from Goblet of Fire onward one major character dies. Cedric, Sirus, Dumbledor, each of them dies before the last story. In watching your video, I did actually recognize the underrated value of having consequences without it being a character death however. And I respect that you outlined and explained why you thought the Harry Potter series didn’t handle this aspect entirely well. Very nice analysis and you earned a subscription for your well constructed points. 👍

[@TourFaint]

I know of a book where author literally rolled dice during major action scenes too see if a character would die or not, it made for a weirdly crapsack, realistic series where everyone could die, not for plot reasons, but because sometimes life is shitty and you can just get shot and die. It made for an interesting, if depressing read.

[@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502]

Now I'm wondering what he would have done if every character rolled "dead" in the first action scene

[@w.t.5136]

@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 isekai time!

[@a.dennis4835]

If red shirts are used, there is no emotional impact. There's a reason red shirts became a meme before memes were a thing.

[@hydrasent563]

7:42 It's not as impactful or sad though, and it feels super convenient that a bunch of unnamed side characters that you don't care about die but not many main characters.

[@MilkySkyShake]

Although I do agree with this problem in general, I don’t think this can apply as much for Harry Potter. We need to remember that the books are not only a character story, but it also makes parallels and use its moments as a way of working different subjects (life, death and war). While many of the final deaths in this franchise aren’t so powerful as character set points (as we can’t see it) it does work as part of its thesis statement. I’ll add some more: this deaths also work as repercussions of previous decisions. Repercussions that matter because the book itself it’s preparing you to understand what death means and how it works. Those deaths mean something because of what happened before or because it’s needed to say what it wants to say.

[@Ohmargod]

There's one counter argument to the whole Harry Potter thing: When all those deaths happened, it was war. A full, ongoing, war. And people die in war. Unceremoniously, shocking, far away and sometimes unnoticed. It is narratively unsatisfactory to watch our characters die that way, but it is realistic. If you look at it like this, Fred, Tonks, Lupin and Hedwig were just casualties of war, in contrast to Cedric who was a f-ing tragedy in a seemingly normal and harmless world.

[@luminous3558]

Its just bad how it happens, not that it happens. Death is pay off, its explosive and fleeting you need to see it happen for full effect but hp just does it all offscreen which makes it feel like justification "you cant tell me none died because see this line here, i wrote all these people died".

[@AnselmsAlwaysAccurate]

Fun fact whenever I want to write sad things I always watch hoenheims death because I can't keep it together while watching that scene

[@mathis8210]

The later HP books is what happens when a childrens book writer tries to suddenly turn their series toward an adult audience. For children it doesn't matter if there are tons of plot holes and bad writing, but adults actually notice that shit. She had a good initial idea for the story, but her writing is quite mediocre.

[@GodlyDra]

I honestly think she had a strong start and a series getting darker and darker can work. The problem is she went from a darkness level of 1, 2 or 3 in the first few books to 11 in the final 2 books. That doesn’t work unless you set it up properly

[@oliverp3545]

@@GodlyDra darkness is a relative scale and can still work. But yeah, it doesn't work when you suddenly destroy the stakes of the status quo and suddenly make death the likely outcome for many characters.

[@GodlyDra]

@@oliverp3545 As I said “it doesn’t work unless you set it up previously” Spoilers for bleach after this point Like In bleach, sure it’s pretty dark already, but before the final arc we find out the good guys commit 2 mass genocides in order to protect the status quo of the entire afterlife. In the very first few moments of the final arc, the ‘thousand-year blood war’ the head scientist of the good guys executed innocent civilians to literally stop the entirety of the universe from collapsing. All this sets up how dark the entire war is going to be. A bunch of pretty important people die or are crippled.

[@thomasraines1396]

The first few books were basically a slice of life/mystery series, Goblet of Fire veered into some dark shit, Order Of The Phoenix continued that, book 6 tried to balance an assassination plot, revealing the bad guy’s power and teen romance and it sort of felt like “Days of Our Lives at Hogwarts” book 7 tried to become a full on war drama.

[@Arko777777]

"Her writting is quite medicore". I still can't get over the fact that Hermione was given one of the most powerful items in the story just because she wanted to attend two classes at once. That's not medicore, it's insanely bad writting.

[@inferiorinferno8859]

7:10 Snape's death showed the power of love? Please, that was Lily's. Snape's death showed us the power of obsession.

[@bruhrespecct1967]

Jason Grace’s death in The trials of Apollo is a near if not perfectly executed death. The shock, mourning and recovery period is done well AND provides character development. A lot of the decisions taken by Apollo were due to the death and trying to keep his promise. Considering that Jason was arguably one of the protagonists of the last series, the shock for the reader is high. Honestly, 3/3.

[@ognicho2333]

Yeah and it maked (at least for me when I think about it) the fandom like Jason. I know it's about what he said in this series too but his death did it too. I mean he was one of the most hated characters just bacause he wasn't Percy and now everyone is still crying about his death and 3/4 of the fandom pretends it didn't happen

[@oliverp3545]

You forgot about Moody dying at the start in addition to Hedwig, then next scene they are having a fucking party.

[@tryhardpenguin9636]

Wait, moody died?

[@oliverp3545]

@@tryhardpenguin9636 yeah, during the "battle of the 7 Potters" which is the most dumb thing I've heard of.

[@connorp3764]

To be fair on the books part at least, the pacing is a lot slower, so the transitions feel more natural.

[@nessyness5447]

@@connorp3764 yeah, that's. Problem the movies have. But at the same time yes, they have a battle, they have a dead to mourn, and soon after there is a wedding. Sure , it may seem illogical, but consider that at times of war this was very normal, the constant possibility of being killed, the losing loved ones, impulses people even more to get married or celebrate the good things even louder, because there is so much misery going around that you just need to focus on the good to stay sane. My grandma lived a war, she said that couples often would have sex to get pregnant , so they could skip the mourning phase if a family member died and get married sooner.

[@SennaHawx]

In the book they're mourning Moody's death, rather than having a "party"

[@hyypio764]

I actually hate endings that try to answer every single question the reader has at the end of the story. With someone like Snape, posthumous closure was needed because there was so much we still didn't know about the character. With someone like Fred, I think the reader has been given enough information to know what his death means to the story. We've known the Weasley family since Book 1 and have seen how they deal with tragedies like when Arthur was attacked in Book 5. To me the choice of not focusing on the reaction is much more powerful than Rowling unnecessarily spelling it out to us.

[@animorph17]

Now for the ultimate story, available on youtube! "Megaman dies at the end." Also on the subject of consequences of war, How to Train your Dragon did that extremely well. Main characters gets his foot chopped off and forever needs a prosthetic replacement.

[@IamGrimalkin]

The consequences of war were explored much better in the books. Honestly it probably has the best character death in fiction. In the final book the main death was done less well, but it was *okay*. But the last book also includes a scene where they imply maybe a bunch of minor characters had been killed off but never explicitly confirm it. I feel that's a interesting way to do things, it makes the audience think. In the first book, I like Toothless's fakeout death a lot because it thematically works really well: it for a moment gives you emotion, it shows definitively that Toothless is *willing* to risk his life for Hiccup (in contrast to before), and it weaves in very well with the 'dragon hibernation' theme running throughout the entire first book. But in the end, you don't have to deal with the negatives of Toothless actually dying and can have a happy ending.

[@BruhMoment-mn9kn]

There are quite a few character deaths crammed into the near end of HP. However, none are written as well as (or as tragic as) character deaths in the ASoIaF series. Martin makes each death matter to the plot and the characters in his series. He builds the world, and fleshes out the details of each character really well. He can either make the reader feel depressed over the Red Wedding, or cheer at the Purple Wedding. He gives such a great depiction of the real human cost of war, and never chooses his character deaths arbitrarily. TLDR: George RR Martin is a far superior author for adults to read, than JKR. Harry Potter was great and fun when we were kids, and couldn't notice (or didn't care about) the logical inconsistencies of the story.

[@ardinhelme687]

I think the Harry Potter situation is relatively salvageable, mostly because it goes at "terminal velocity", all they really needed was a nice mental breakdown once things slow down. Basically bottling all that grieving into a single scene can work when you have a story moving at breakneck speeds and throwing people into bodybags left and right, but yeah, you at least gotta take a moment to process that, preferably before the final battle but the mass funeral ending is also popular.

[@Nayhaps_Mayhaps]

"Revolving door of death" *Laughs in "To Your Eternity"*

[@pleasantlymixed5860]

The city siege arc was nonstop adrenaline

[@oliverp3545]

TBF the stakes were there from the beginning that the only one who has a strong chance of living is the MC, considering it starts off with killing a character which an inferior series would had made a part of the main cast, but now he's just the default suit of the mc.

[@skeletonwar4445]

And then they all come back and it turns into a modern high-school slice of life with psycho horror untertones. What a shift.

[@ThePCguy17]

But if the main characters die at the end it makes for great 'reincarnated into a crossover' fanfiction. And that makes it all okay, right? Right?

[@JDReC100]

no

[@ThePCguy17]

@@JDReC100 lol

[@AlfredoPuente8]

Killing characters at the end makes your story feel like it has tension without having to worry about continue the story without those characters.

[@TheseUseless]

The end of a story is supposed to be its climax, its peak tension. As a result, its often the most dangerous. Meaning more people die...

[@beccaknight5763]

Exactly!

[@mariathompson5104]

Not every death fills the same narrative purpose. Fred, Lupin, Tonks, etc. all died just to show how brutal and fatal the war at hogwarts was. They’re not “red shirts,” especially not Fred. Hedwig’s death was poorly done though.

[@FraserSouris]

I don't really agree. Like, firstly, there's only so many characters you can grieve for at once. If even half the named characters that died in DH died earlier so we could grieve for them, then most of the pages would be for grieving and not the actual story. Secondly, having so many red shirts take the deaths instead does remove the tension since the audience will realize that major characters are safe. And not killing major characters makes the story feel more toothless. Like, you bring up that "it's also realistic to go to the bathroom yet characters don't do it" but that misses that "going to the bathroom" and "dying unexepectly" are different in terms of engagement and relevance. So I'd argue HP killing off so many characters works. It reinforces the stakes that this is a war, ensure's there's tension since anyone could die. Yeah, we may not get closure but I'd argue that's not immediately neccessary.

[@SpaceandGoats]

The most nonsensical death in Harry Potter is Snape's. The timing, the fact he carried his memories around. The fact Harry JUST HAPPENED TO BE THERE. The fact he can heal and carries potions around that could've saved him... It was...trite

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Tonks, Lupin and Fred's death impact on characters could've been explored in 8th book, but NOOOOOOOOOOO cursed child turned out to be bad writting.

[@hiddenleafguy4576]

I disagree with the red shirt take, I've never gotten any engagement by some rando red shirts dying, nor has it established that things are getting serious because people can die. It's a useless act of set dressing without consequence.

[@Lewisking50]

I agree with you. But then again maybe I'm too jaded with all holy plot armor 99.99% percent of protagonists and their side kicks have. I actually think it's quite meaningful if the author eventually kills well established characters. Naturally, the better it is executed in writing the better it is. Randomly getting rid of well-known or even just likeable character in a passage or less is not satisfying at all.

[@iug5672]

I guess his point is that, if you wanna make an unremarkable death, better to you some rando red shirt than an established character. Which is a fair point.

[@86Fallowcp]

Except Gears of War 2. The red shirt of turn turned up being way more compelling than it had to be. Having to play half of the game with them probably helped

[@TheAntiSanta]

Bruh, the Red Shirt suggestion was just as an alternative to randomly killing off well liked characters at the end of your story for the sake of "realism." It's not being suggested as an alternative to an actual character death moment in material that's supposed to be for a more "mature" audience.

[@Darth_Insidious]

If you want to kill a character but don't have time to build anything off of it afterwards, its better to be a Red Shirt. When half of the people who've read/watched Harry Potter don't even know Fred died, you have a problem with pointlessly killing characters.

[@Nova_of_the_Stars]

Oh boy, I'm SO gonna disappoint you when my animated series finally releases.

[@yohaneslay8109]

"why not killing main character at the end of story so we won't get unnecessary sequel for the franchise" death note sequel happen.

[@NerdishGeekish]

Well I agree that a lot of character die in a disrespectful manner that cheapens their importance and ruins their character arc, Mr. O'saurus... But consider this: Most of these stories offered as examples end with a climactic battle between the bad guys and the good guys. If the good guys win the day without any losses or sacrifices on their sides then it kinda dampens the threat that the bad guys posed.

[@rebeccashaver8518]

I think Remus and Tonks’ deaths were supposed to be a full circle sort of thing. They were the next Gen (sort of) Lily and James and they left little Teddy behind but with a better support system than Harry had.

[@And-lj5gb]

I think you make a lot of good points that apply in general for most stories but for Harry Potter specifically I just can't see how there couldn't be deaths like Fred, Lupin and Tonks in the Battle of Hogwarts. First of all, none of these characters were THAT important, not among 6-7 main characters of the story (originally Ron was intended to die too- take that! But Rowling changed her mind). With what the Battle of Hogwarts was supposed to be like, it's statistically impossible to avoid significant deaths, because we have at least like 20-30 characters of significance fighting there- if we count Fred, Lupin and Tonks as important, then we have Harry, Ron, Hermione, Luna, Neville, Ginny, Hagrid, Fred, George, Percy, Mr and Mrs Weasley, McGonagall, Flitwick, Sprout, Trelawney, Shacklebolt, Lupin, Tonks, Slughorn, Dean, Seamus, Kreacher - only on the Harry's side- if all of them survive that what does that tell about the battle? Either absurdly thick plot armour or it just doesn't seem very serious- red shirts wouldn't do the trick here. Granted Rowling could have done a better job with the impact of those deaths on the story, but she would need to expand the story beyond what she was planning to do (big decisive battle followed by the short epilogue), and after such a long series I don't blame her for avoiding that. It was not perfect but no story will ever be.

[@d73w80]

3:48 you know, I think a joke eulogy may be the exact thing Fred would have wanted.