United Methodist Trust Clause and the big split, explained with a McDonalds Happy Meal.

[@bucaneervideo7918]

I was in a fellowship which split from the Evangelical Methodist Church many years ago. All of a sudden, we weren't calling ourselves Methodists, but Christians. Our pastor at the time nailed it, I think, when he said we were not as much non-denominational as interdenominational. We were dependent on other believers in other churches, but we were denominationally independent. We had members from a number of denominational backgrounds; and learned a lot from each other.

[@martinschultheis6422]

You are absolutely correct in saying that traditionalist methodists should first follow the doctrine, however, after the first thing, there comes a second and very important thing. That is that traditionalists should have the MEANS to follow the doctrine. It is not the GMC that is leaving the doctrine, it is the NEO UMC that is leaving the doctrine. Therefore should not the trust clause apply to them first? Is not the tail wagging the dog?

[@stevenwagner9912]

Churches should be wary of affiliating

[@stevenwagner9912]

With any other church that comes along so they don't leave one mess and jump right into another.

[@marthalucas1221]

Blessed to have stumbled upon your post today...I learned from you and look forward to your next video.🙏❤️👏

[@carolepylant1015]

I appreciate you taking the time to put what's currently happening to Methodists in plain easy to understand language. Keep it up please.

[@mcneillmama50]

I visited a former UMC that disaffiliated back in March. They changed their name to a community church and hired their former old time Methodist minister. The church was packed Sunday. They've got a lot of work to do if they want to survive as an independent. They need to bring in some volunteer musicians to build up the music which they lost. The congregants will have to tithe and get out and invite ppl to attends. They'll have to care for their congregation. They'll need music and activities to attract youth. Most of the congregation looked to be 70 and older. You can't maintin a church on the backs of your senior saints.

[@bennygraham847]

that's the reason people are leaving church--it's all about control. pay your money and do as you're told and everything will be just fine.

[@dirkevans1]

In the UMC there is a Council. Every member of the Church can and should attend so they know what is happening in their district and Church. All Church members have the opportunity to be heard at these meetings. But all members cannot vote. If you want to have a vote in what happens you will need to be a member of the Church and on the Council as an officer or you can become a member at large. We have a number of members at large, they attend meetings, voice their concerns and ideas and vote. That's the best way to have a say in how your money is spent.

[@mcneillmama50]

I read in Christianity Today that membership is dying out and financial contributions are decreasing every year. Money talks. You want the agnostics to run for the hills then everybody needs to close their wallets. No more offerings. No more apportionments. Let the UMC go bankrupt.

[@stevenwagner9912]

The UMC has become the largest HOA in the world. We have all heard the horror stories about HOAs. They want to bleed the church for money and control all that goes on.

[@jeffdollar1646]

I'm part of a Methodist group that saw the writing on the wall back in the 1940's, and left the main denomination. They lost their properties, and the ministers left behind their pensions. When they put together the discipline, they made certain that the churches owned the properties, not some corporate headquarters.

[@eddiehuss5707]

When a United Methodist Church closes, for whatever reason, then who owns the property? Answer: The Conference. This makes the most sense.

[@janiefox3458]

Wow, I learned a great deal today - - and from other videos of yours. I just watched a local UMC church close it's doors - very rural are of MD. My church has about 10 people on a good Sunday, no inside rest room, our pastors other 2 churches have 2 congregants each - don't know how the doors stay open.

[@dirkevans1]

I suppose it's possible that someone within these small congregations is paying the bills for utilities and basic things like insurances. That might be how they keep the doors open. It's tough to watch happening to a Church. Our UMC has a small, but dedicated and giving congregation. Having recently weathered a near closing we know the pain of seeing it coming at us like a freight train and not knowing what would be the correct next move. Changes were made, some members stepped back, some have gone to other Churches, some don't attend any Church and others seemed to have become stronger, giving and doing more. We have had a different Pastor assigned to us and things have gradually been improving. God hears the cry of His people.

[@scotthaynes5440]

Never give up control of your assets.

[@Idontknow-gh3pz]

You mentioned how the trust clause was created so that the denomination could have some oversight over the churches and who preached there etc. How in the world did the UMC allow for word of faith, prosperity gospel televangelist Oral Roberts to become a Methodist minister? How and why did the Methodist church allow for him to become a a pastor there?

[@nooneyouknowhere6148]

By completely ignoring the book of discipline

[@mcneillmama50]

All they do is shuffle errant bad preachers around. If you have an energetic talented God fearing minister who's building the church up, on fire for discipleship and evangelism you can't keep him.

[@mcneillmama50]

The Wesleyan churches have the right idea. When a Wesleyan church starts dying out, losing members, they send a team in to the church&revitalize it with a new look, a new Worship format, a praise band leads modern worship. They get rid of the pulpit. Preachers dont stand behind a pulpit any longer. We found out that the new Worship experience/environment has brought the youth back to the church. If churches arent willing to sing a new song to the Lord, the only diapers you're gonna be changing are the Depends.

[@lindawarner9406]

Your insights help me though I took Methodist history we didn't get a lot things. The church I did my intership burnt down.they re-built now the pastor i was under retired and has a new pastor.

[@sv62848]

Sorry guys, Church buildings were modeled after the Catholic Church. There is no mention of church buildings in the Bible.

[@kentfrederick8929]

Frankly, this isn't all that different from the Catholic and Anglican traditions, where parish property is owned by a diocese. In Chicago, the Archdiocese has been closing schools and parishes for decades, and it's the Archdiocese which ultimately disposes of the property. It's the same reason why Methodists have appointed pastors, rather than called clergy.

[@benjaminparkin9716]

I was going to say that before I read your comment. The Anglican church in Australia sounds a lot like this

[@raylane7056]

LOL zzzzzz. Great explanation of the trust clause!! And a profound caution!

[@indecision3020]

That was the most confused, least helpful explanation I've ever heard! Can you do a vid for me on how to sort my socks? Thanks!

[@amandafong1453]

The book of Discipline has been changed numerous times in fact it is changed every 4 years.

[@barronfinley3062]

Imo, wesley is not the final say, but the holy scripture is the true guide .

[@mrsjobo6458]

Love your posts! I’m still a member of the UMC and am looking forward to the split (sadly).

[@donpaquette7895]

Thank you very much for your honesty towards a potential contentious subject but as I had learned from my late Pastor Dr. Gene Scott upon the Taxonomy of the Church, that the ministry is much more than the building, pastor, activities, etc. The truest meaning of the purpose is as you just said in Matthew 28:19 as the objective purpose and all things in the organization are focused upon that first and foremost. Stay blessed man of God and continue to teach His word until that time towards His coming back to receive us home.

[@patricktomlinson5426]

This talk about buildings...versus following God...makes me think of Jesus talking to the woman...at the well...

[@rebeccafoust2963]

and Jesus' "hatred of religion" - not what God designed worship to be, but what had been added by humans over time - the rituals, the trappings, etc. That is what popped into my mind. - The extra "noise" outside what is truly important.

[@patricktomlinson5426]

@@rebeccafoust2963 Exactly my point...what did he say at the well...something to the effect that the day will come, and is now here, when you won't have to worship on a mountain, or a temple..that the important thing is truth, and spirit...if you have to give up your beliefs..trade your beliefs..for a building...then something is very, very wrong...not saying there is anything wrong with ritual, or buildings, or organized religion..but those things should not outweigh the truth, and spirit, of the gospel...just my opinion.

[@charleslatora5750]

This has been very interesting as a non-practicing Roman Catholic. I'm not happy with where MY church has gone over the last 40 years. I don't want a different faith.. I remember my faith that I had as a child and it was strong then. maybe moving to California when I was 12 to decadent California had a lot with damaging my faith; also some of the nuns and priests in Cali that weren't good with children in the schools and now the pope that we have Best of luck to you and yours I had more to say but my phone seems to be acting up specifically the keyboard. Be strong...have faith

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

@@charleslatora5750 Actually there is no need to change to any faith or in this case denomination. In fact the Bible steers believers away from creating or following after division making within the faith, which is basically what denominationalism is at its core. The best proof of this found in all of 1st Corinthians chapter one. But to pinpoint the matter read verses 10 - 13 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” Note that it is NOT a suggestion. We are all to speak the same thing and have the same mind and judgment. There should be NO divisions among us. And it even gives an example how by those of Chloe’s house contentions arose and addresses those who wanted to group themselves with Paul, Apollos and Christ, which Paul shoots down and refocuses on Christ. Today we call these divisions in the faith: denominationalism and unfortunately due to its overwhelming growth people have taken a blind eye to this scripture and embraced the divisions that now exist. Today we have pastors and preachers not caring about biblical doctrine for the sake of playing nice with one another. Caring only if a certain group follows a basic belief disregarding the rest of the Bible and so many scriptures that state we are to edify one another and that we can use the scriptures to do so. Therefore there is nothing wrong in using the scriptures to clarify the truth and dissuade false beliefs. “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” 2nd Tim 3:16-17. Note it says to be PERFECT, keep that in mind the next time someone tries to persuade you that certain doctrinal differences don’t matter. But even the basic beliefs can be wrong because one believing in Christ does not necessarily mean they believe in the true Christ. Even Jesus told us that (Matthew 24:23-26). There are different Jesus's in many churches you name it and you will find that the Jesus of one faith is different from the Jesus of another and in many cases many are not the same you read in the Bible. Many denominations may declare the name of Jesus but it doesn’t mean he is the same as described in the Bible. There are also some who will declare with their mouth the basic beliefs of the Bible at first but when you get into deeper conversations with a particular sect they will try to convince you that there were more. An example would be later finding out that they believe in doing good works or getting water baptized is vital to get you into heaven, etc. Another great example of how the Bible dissuades a group mentality is when Jesus corrects John and the rest when a guy who was preaching/casting out devils in Jesus’s name who didn’t follow them. “And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.” Luke 9:49-50. So the man did no wrong yet they saw wrong because he didn’t follow the group. Therefore we are not to see something wrong in someone who clearly believes in Jesus just because he doesn’t follow your group or any group. Given all these wonderful scriptures how can we tell someone to go here or there or belong to this group or that? Instead we should be like Paul and say don’t make or follow any divisions follow Jesus. Its time to stop following churches and follow God.

[@hughsalter7769]

we still have two lo cal UMC churches but don't know which way they will go

[@mcneillmama50]

Ppl will just quit putting money in the collection plate. Quite frankly I'm done putting my hard earned money in a church collection plate. To see it be handed over to a convention or exec committee to spend on their vacation homes, their health insurance and entertainment. Then when there's a need in the church, there's never any money to help families in the church. Or when there are major building repairs needed like mold cleanup in these old 1800 ad churches theres no money. I got a letter at Christmas 2020 during covid that our local church had a toxic mold problem. They were asking for donations about 100000$ in repairs. Ok that church is part of a conference that already took our money. Why doesn't the conference or Duke Endowment pay for the repair? I would donate but I never even got a Christmas card from that church since the pandemic closed the churches.

[@davidcawrowl3865]

Is seems like the one who "wins" is the one who ends up with the established property. I can see how traditionalists would hold a squatter's rights view that, "We were here first" and implicitly, "We aren't leaving." If they would hold out to the very end, and not float the idea of leaving (floated ideas cause a lost of problems) , then the odds are they will stay.

[@jimhughes4697]

good content. please turn off the music.

[@jimtackett9403]

I agree with you in terms of serving God and the denomination having control over the content of the messages taught, but I can't agree with the denomination owning a property that has been paid for by the congratulation of a given church. I find that unfair at the least and against common sense and fairness to those who have worked and given, many of their meager means, to purchase a piece of property for someone else to own. The denomination is perfectly capable of monitoring/maintaining and controlling the proper teaching of Gods word without requiring, in exchange, the ownership of property paid for by other people.

[@edwardbrown7571]

The Methodist Church problems started way before all this. Squire Boone was preaching in Meade County, Kentucky back in the early days of Kentucky history. The Catholic Church was using legalese to punish non-Catholic religious groups. Squire Boone had a fake land/property lawsuit brought against him which was incited by the Catholics. But the Methodist did not help Squire, although he eventually was found innocent. But sometime around the 1950s, Methodists only held services every fourth week by traveling ministers. Around then, the poor farm communities were held hostage by the self-righteous Methodist management. These struggling poor, with the soles held onto their shoes by hog rings, were told if they could not guarantee a funding of retirement and other perks for the ministers, they would close those churches. I forget what year it was, but Battletown's Methodist Church, Wolf Creek Church, Mount Hope Church in Big Bend, and probably five other Churches in that county, were simply closed, more or less as a punishment to the members for not signing a guaranteed funding demand. Now they held onto the property, but allowed the buildings to simply rot down. Some of the churches were kept up for holding funerals by local concerned citizens, but most just rotted and fell in... It is, what it is... It was all about the guaranteed funding, holding the church members hostage, and controlling all the social engineering cultish brainwashing of manmade religiosities that sold guilt and shame and policed the community by peer pressure barbarism...

[@nambamtber]

Thats interesting history about Kentucky.

[@34Packardphaeton]

... Does it all mean... that local worshipers should own their local church building?? I figure that, otherwise, the denomination has "all" the relative power, doesn't it?

[@damongreville2197]

Sadly, buildings are often more of a hindrance than a blessing. Think about the real Christian Church in China, said to be 400 million strong. It has no buildings, and it is a crime to be a Christian. They meet in private homes, in numbers seldom exceeding twelve. It is supposedly the fastest growing church in the world. Quite right, - if you are concerned about buildings then your heart is in the wrong place. In the OT there are commands to build buildings. There is no such thing in the NT.

[@sv62848]

Bingo! The whole model of a 'church building' was fashioned after the Catholic Church. When the persecuted came to this country to get away from them there was no set principle of what a church was to be like. They ignorantly followed the Catholic model of a church building not realizing what it would lead to today. You should fellowship without much dead weight in the home or a rented facility but the main message is to keep it simple and spread the Gospel, people. Finally, follow the scriptures 2Cornithians 6:17. There is no mention of any church buildings in the New Testament. Think about it.

[@jessicaknight788]

I know there is no such thing, but Charles Wesley would be rolling over in his grave because Christians that don’t follow Christ (the Word that became flesh and dealt among us) are not Christians....bless you all Members if the Methodist church who are standing for the Word and obeying it and calling out those who are turning the truth into al lie and denying the Holiness if God.

[@Bob.W.]

I think the denominations are in it for the real estate unfortunately. And sadly.

[@bibleambassadors747]

I meant to address this last time... you keep mentioning your desire to fulfill the "Great Commission". That commission went "out of commission" with Galatians 2:7-9.

[@nickadams2270]

In which way did it go out of commission. How did you get that from those verses?

[@rapturebound197]

That's complete nonsense.

[@cynthiabrown2473]

Our building is huge with a great Christian school. Many children, many jobs. And doctrine is the issue along with Bishops who are usurping the Book of discipline.

[@cynthiabrown2473]

Part of our ministry does happen in the building. I realize U r speaking to rural churches.

[@Clouds457]

I have attended UMC for 30 years and would leave if we start allowing gay marriage! And I will say that after listening to many of the Real Life with Jack Hibbs sermons and speeches on youtube which I discovered since covid, leaving the Methodist church for a teaching like his would be fine with me. I get so much more teaching and spiritual growth, and a closer walk with Thee, out of what Jack Hibbs preaches. I would be interested in watching your video that specifically states why you split from the UMC, however, I have not been able to find it?

[@ironmatic1]

Where have you been? The UMC has had gay marriage for quite a while now. And it’s one of his recent videos, they left because the UMC wouldn’t let them downsize their building.

[@lynndafeth8377]

I don't know how to find your episodes, I did subscibe but I want to see all of these topics on the split.

[@nambamtber]

kzbin.info/aero/PLNDfCUe2G7C3XFVRxkkYlOiNLCo-Rxy79

[@nambamtber]

Thanks for subscribing.

[@itsbillhere9315]

Join us apostolics in Biblical doctrine

[@hughsalter7769]

THANKS HAVE SOME CONNECTIONS BUT NOT GOOD AS USING THEM

[@kornrex]

Sorry but the Book of Discipline has changed during my lifetime.

[@cincyborn]

I agree the rural church is protected from a small minority take over, with the trust

[@lindachan3115]

What I don’t get is why they wanted to control what being taught/preached? Aren’t they using the Bible to preach? Or are they using their own doctrine?

[@gregorybarrett4998]

I think Wesley understood that wolves would invade the flock, and wanted to protect his people from error.

[@carlcutts8535]

Why the split

[@mcneillmama50]

As long as you keep putting money in the offering plate you are part of the problem. What happens to the church cemeteries when the churches go out of business?

[@Gatsinahonda]

Would you give your name and the congregation you serve?

[@nambamtber]

Check us out at www.tidioutecreek.org

[@carlthornton3076]

Very Good!... 81🐄🦉🏴‍☠✝

[@annpippin6388]

Those leaving The Traditional UMC are entirely responsible for all the negitive publicity .

[@williamdishon1297]

Good video. 👍

[@timbenson3116]

You’re just running a business...and that is sad

[@GoingGreenMom]

McDonalds is actually a really good comparison.

[@LJones-tx6eg]

Without "pushing" religion? So without doing what Jesus set you to do?

[@nambamtber]

Jesus asked us to share truth in love. Religion is a man made construct.

[@timbenson3116]

You don’t need a building nor a 501c3 to be in Christ...are you born again? Released from the god of this world or not? If not you’re arranging deck chairs on the Titanic!

[@defendingthegospel721]

Finally someone talking truth here. Amen and amen. It goes even beyond the building issue but the many doctrinal differences that the UMC upholds that fly in the face of scripture. Infant baptism, suing and going to court with "christians", the gay issue, it is just too much to consider this denomination in any way shape or form a viable Christian organization. People ought to just leave and follow Jesus.

[@mcneillmama50]

We are released in the Word and our answers to questions in life are revealed through prayer. We are called to be salt and light. Salt heals and light reveals.

[@danielhixson3717]

John Wesley was correct, but what happens when (WATCH OUT. HERE IT COMES. IT HAS TO BE SAID.) Satan is in control of trust??

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

If that is the case, then it's high time to leave such a church.

[@marthalucas1221]

🙏🙏🙏❤️👍

[@hughsalter7769]

DR KENNEDY DID THAT

[@davidcollins2993]

It's theft period.

[@sharonalthouse1689]

What do you know about the Global Methodist? Same as UM? Why can't we get out of Methodist?

[@nambamtber]

I haven't done a significant amount of research on the GMC. My personal understanding at this point is that it will still be a corporate power structure with a strict conservative biblical view.

[@philmcdonald6088]

just saying.

[@hughsalter7769]

OMG

[@sv62848]

You guys are following the wrong book. Go back to following the King James Bible and get rid of the lawyers.

[@rexrobo2512]

Question where do people get the first indication of a church's doctrine? Is it the building? The answer should be simple and easy, the first indication of a church's doctrine is the name of the church. It would be much easier for a denomination to copyright the name of the denomination and then license it to churches who wish to become part of the domination. The church building then becomes the responsibility of the individual churches, not the denomination. The oversight/control that the denomination would have would then come from the the ability of the denomination to revoke that church's ability to use the name of the denomination. In John Wesley's day it would have been very difficult to protect a copyrighted name. Much easier to protect the building. Today, the reverse is true it's easier to protect a copyrighted name than it is to protect the building. Maybe the word protect isn't the right word but I hope you get what I mean anyways.

[@richardherrell4770]

If you want a congregational church polity, go become a Baptist. Sheesh.

[@johnnyraymond429]

I guess I'll let the Congregational Methodist Church know that they need to become Baptist then. Sheesh. Not all Methodist organizations are Episcopal in polity. And there are a lot of congregational denominations/organizations that are not Baptist.

[@TABrown-xh7xc]

Which Baptist ? Independent, southern, primitive, brush arbor , and still several others. I was born and raised in an independent Baptist church, and as a blood bought born again Christian as long as the church is teaching the bible I prefer KJV and not the world or these false new doctored bibles, I feel the lord will give you spiritual peace if your in the right place.

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

@@TABrown-xh7xc I agree with your observation in that there is an array of churches out there which should be seen as odd and maybe unnatural because if all of them call themselves Bible believers why then would they differ? It shouldn't be embraced like many woke church leaders out there do. It should be viewed as something that needs correction. Today most people don't taker into account 1st Corin. 1:10-13. That's normally where these problems begin when we don't care to correct or follow after the scriptures. So now we have a plethora of contradicting sects that most people do not want to point out as steering away from the Bible, so we can all play nice. Yet the Bible tells us to exhort, expose and rebuke but such scriptures fall on deaf ears to obey the woke mentality.

[@mcneillmama50]

There are Baptist churches shutting their doors. Who gets that property when the church dies out and can't pay property taxes and fire insurance? Who does care of the cemeteries?