United pilots confused on runway

Confusion on the runway
Site where video was found..
flash.aopa.org/asf/runway_safe...

[@chriswalden6485]

Pilots said someone just took off so that means wherever they are the runway is active. Real bad ATC, the pilots were clearly unsure of their position and were seeking help by giving as much info as they could, ATC basically ignored their plight and it was only the pilots choosing not to move that averted a major disaster.

[@Kpoole35]

Wow hats off to USAir for holding at the end, most pilots would have took off

[@aboriani]

agreed

[@Freakschwimmer]

Holy shit, The tower messed up BIG time when they gave 2 Take-off clearances even though UNited told them they were on an active runway near Kilo. AND United even told someone just took of right next/infront of them, basically reporting a runway-incursion. Hope she (tower) had to undergo some serious training after that incident.

[@sunny71169]

Kudos US Air Captain. Wonder how may lives you saved on that day.

[@Nikola16789]

It's a little bit late for firing the controller as incident occurred 15 years ago. Anyway, An investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board followed and while no fault was assigned to the controller, she was required to undergo retraining before returning to service. The pilots were debriefed by United, received additional training and were returned to service

[@TheHuntw2]

Well done to the US crew.

[@tigersfan14]

significant changes to ATC training and practice occurred out of this incident. it's good we learned so much from an incident where there were no fatalities. Sadly, that's not always the case.

[@debiassi]

It actually gets worse with viewing, the captain actually eventually clearly reports there position on 23L just prior to tower clearing 2998 to take off 05L the reciprocal and same runway as 1448 reported being on. All she needed to do was verify there position by looking at the ground chart. The 2998 pilot saved lifes with his call. He deserved a medal, you could hear the panic in 1448 voice when he said we are trying to tell you were on an active runway. Unbelievable event.

[@Mtrhd0024]

Wow... Glad USAir 2998 was listening carefully to the conversation taking place... I can't really fault United 1448 because as a pilot myself, I know it can be very confusing taxing at an airport you're unfamiliar with, especially in the dark/fog! Mistakes happen and pilots get lost, its not a very big deal. But when the controller assumes she's right and the pilots wrong. And THEN directs the pilot onto an active runway. Thats when stuff happens. USAir 2998's smart thinking saved lives...

[@Lucpol1986]

Confused Pilots & ATC living in her own world... Should have informed all traffic to hold position and sorted out the mess.

[@googaagoogaa12345678]

especially how smug she was with usair "he's not anywhere near the runway but you can hold"

[@rolfen]

"We're just gonna stay clear of all runways" good idea

[@ianchandramouli4633]

After United advised the controller they were on the active runway she should have realized that they were on 23L

[@GBXS]

Regardless of their location. If a pilot of a commercial airliner claims he is on an active runway, he probably is on an active runway. She should have stopped everything and figured that shit out.

[@ianchandramouli4633]

exactly

[@GBXS]

Ian Chandramouli I think we should apply for the disciplinary board.

[@woungaga]

Not taking off until they understood what s going on....saved the day!!!!

[@Fabbydabbydoozy]

Very interesting video. The animation really helps! Thx for uploading, is there any more of these?

[@moreinterference]

This is a reasonably famous case study used regularly in ATC training about how stress and misconceptions can cause dangerous situations. The controllers grevious error was failing to identify the threat of the pilots error (1448) and take steps to fix the problem before compounding it. The controller was not sacked. If fact to her credit she agreed to the release of the transcripts so that others might learn a lesson from this occurance. The pilot of 2998 was of course excellent.

[@Stings2pee]

You can tell the ATC is on an ego-trip @ 2:16 when she clears USAir 2998 for take-off for a SECOND time despite United 1448's distress call. Even though USAir 2998 was interrupted by United 1448's distress call - the ATC should have made United 1448's interruption priority and tell USAir 2998 to hold position. The pilots of USAir 2998 deserve a medal!!!

[@rehfeldttw]

The tower controller must have her head up her ... If i'm not mistaken, the tower is IMC so she has no clue from her sight what's going on. The US Air 2998 followed the correct action in position and hold at the active runway and challenged the tower.

[@DanielCharry1025]

USAir was genius, controller was terrible. I just don't understand why the turn on B? It's not just a wrong turn, it's a blunder that deserves a suspension.

[@SKeeetcher]

No, not that weird. They thought they exited onto Bravo and not November, hence the left turn. So it's like hold a map 90degrees wrong.

[@josephdale69]

Affirmative action

[@bones343]

1448 states they are at the intersection of 2 runways, with K to their right. They also state they are on an active. Tower states "I need to know what runway you are on", and yet still unsure, clears 2998 for takeoff? Mad props to 2998 for refusing takeoff clearence. They then state something jumbled about 23L, only then advising tower again they are on the runway. Still tower clears 2998 for takeoff (twice!) on the runway an aircraft just said they were on! Holy crap!

[@willyz777]

WE SHOULD ALL GIVE A ROUND OF APPLAUSE TO US AIR 2998!!! HE SAVED HUNDREDS OF LIFES THAT DAY!!!

[@13rdp]

Very good airmanship from 2998! The best part of the video is missing, when she realizes her mistake.... Heard this case on one of my crm course.

[@PatrickBijvoet]

Agreed, if 2998 did not make that decision, it had been Las Palmas KLM-Pannam all over again.

[@Dilandau3000]

And yet another reason why ground radar should be mandatory at all airfields...

[@graemejwsmith]

Just for context - This happened in 1999 and since then KPVD has closed 23R (it is now a taxiway) and there is ground surveillance radar and a requirement to use transponders on the ground. That said - it makes a great lesson in Runway Incursion and Aeronautical Decision Making and is still used for this by AOPA.

[@747driver]

The crew of US Air 2998 broke the chain of events and saved the day. Well done!

[@brendoreynolds5709]

“Somebody just took off.....we are on an active runway” Me, not being the brightest, could still figure out United 1448 was in the wrong spot I cringed when ATC said “23R is not an active runway” *ITS OBVIOUS THEY ARE IN THE WRONG SPOT*

[@MrAlicenine9x]

pilot confused, ATC even wrose !

[@YouTube.TOM.A]

United made the best of a bad situation by Fessing up as to their navigation error. They did not try to protect themselves by minimizing their confusion and reported their known position. US air 2998 acted decisively in protecting their aircraft. Very important to have a Airport diagram handy and visible immediately after landing [ especially in low visibility ] . You really cannot make any assumptions about the airport taxiway signs and the visibility of markings and placards on the airport under those conditions without an investigation. One pilot can make a difference. United Airlines has a good population of female pilots an I am disturbed by the KITCHEN comments that someone made.

[@bones343]

This is where the term Situational Awareness comes into play. US Air 2998 is the only one that had SA. United 1448 lost SA, and though they realized they did something wrong, added to confusion by continuing to say they were on 23R. This caused tower to have a breakdown in SA. What confuses me, is that even after 1448 said they were near K (which never meets 23R), tower continues to believe they are on 23R, though she knows they can't be! Then, she clears an aircraft for takeoff still unsure!

[@Rax135]

That airport has 3 Runway (well 6 but 3 runways :D). That means the airport should be pretty large. Why do they not have a ground radar? And why does the Controller still let planes takeoff when she is told that the plane was on an active runway..

[@propilotcfi]

This event happened before ASDE-X was implemented at the smaller airports. Want to say this is early 2000s

[@Rax135]

+propilotcfi still the controller should have stopped the other plane when the other said that they are on a runway

[@propilotcfi]

+Rax135 exactly. This is why they show this to is almost every year in recurrent training. a very good 'what not to do scenario.'

[@propilotcfi]

+Rax135 if you are the controller.

[@Probowler37]

Great job to those USAir pilots for making a very smart and safe decision. Also to the United pilots even though they made an error they did the right thing by trying repeatedly calling the tower to let them know they made a mistake. That ATC lady needs to be fired!

[@mkarnerfors]

Noone lost their job. Both the conroller and the pilots of 1448 returned to their jobs after some retraining. The pilots of 2998 were honored. Look up "1999 T. F. Green Airport runway incursion" on Wikipedia.

[@beerbrewer737]

Thank goodness no one got killed and that USAir 2998 did not takeoff.

[@Towert7]

last pilot made a good choice!

[@quinnjim]

Triple affirmative action event. Thank goodness the USAir guy saved the day. The EEOC needs to see this.

[@nashiPAGE]

@BorisKnoT Exactly! And you know, if someone says they want to hold short and wait till things are sorted out for safety, why the heck would she reply like that? Dude's trying to keep his hundreds of passengers safe!

[@thecaptkirk]

This is a great lesson for ALL pilots. If you're like USAir listening to confusion and you're sitting safe on the ground, don't move until the confusion is sorted out. I would hold short and declare unable to proceed. I"m just a GA pilot, but safety requires confirmation not assumption.

[@Andrew57110]

Big Props to US air 2998 pilot he did the right thing by telling ATC that he was going to wait. This is exactly how accidents happen

[@Mtrhd0024]

@QemeH Agree'd, but if its dark and foggy, and you missed a sign, you could easily become disoriented, even with a chart! He knew he wasn't in the correct place, just wasn't sure exactly where he was! Either way, glad that USAir pilot had the mind to think twice before throttling up!! :)

[@dimos47ki7]

agreed, the pilot who did the mistake insisted he was on an ACTIVE runway, she tryied to tell him he is wrong...great decision by the 2998 and she decided to be ironic on the last sentence

[@scottycatman]

Wow, that changed from "lost pilots" to "dangerous as hell ATC"

[@gucha7]

The incident occured on December 6, 1999 at T. F. Green Airport near Providence, RI.

[@JollyGeneral]

wow that ATC was a bitch at the end. 2998 did the right thing and avoided a potential accident.

[@larryrael]

Seeing as the controller should know that a plane just took off on 5R, and that 23R was inactive, together with the fact that the pilot reported "approaching kilo". The ONLY way the pilot could be approaching kilo is if they made that mistake, and an experienced ground controller should realize what happened.

[@giroffti]

That controller made me sick, she gave the clearance even when she perfectly knew that there was confusion and bad communication with the United aircraft. She even insisted on making the USair plane take off. Unbelievable. Unacceptable.

[@CaptainSiCo]

There's a related video here which shows what happened afterwards, ie the controller directing 1448 to the gate. It also shows that the above video is slightly edited.

[@Willeniumm]

Thats rather scary how confident the ATC was about United 1448s position. If that pilot would have taken off there would have been an accident. Luckily the pilots listen to whats going on around them and decided to hold. Great call on their part. Why that controller ASSUMED they were off the runway is deffinetly beyond me. Don't get me wrong ATC have one of the hardest jobs in the world and a skilled and trained pilot should know how to taxi properly. Communication is key!

[@AntonyTH]

That's a very good pilot of the USAir.2998. Who knows what would've happend if he bought the words from the tower! These are moments when you can seperate the good pilots from the bad ones.

[@Northstander]

Common sense applied by the pilot cleared for take-off at the end, waiting until the tower had figured out what was going on!

[@samwong92]

ATC should have confirm where was the aircraft before allow any other aircraft land or take off, cos United 1448 already adviced they are on runway but not sure which one, it could possibly on the active runway USAir 2998 did a great job there

[@XboxPhantom]

I know Im not the first to say this but they deserve as much credit as possible. The pilots of US Air 2998 deserve a lot of respect for making a life saving decision.

[@irocZ421]

@B737ngdriver Excellent video and graphics!! It made following the conversations much easierI wish all the ATC postings were done with your talent!!

[@thesuperbsuperb]

WOW great call by USAIR. i'd hope any pilot hearing something like this would second guess and ask to hold.

[@654321825]

US Airways is on a roll here. First the hudson river landing and now this :) Good job :) You guys hired some smart ass pilots

[@YouTube.TOM.A]

In the aftermath of this incident if your focus is on who should get fired you are focusing on the wrong thing. You have a lot to prove before you sit in the cockpit of an airliner so incompetence is not a factor [ what causes a crew to act at a level below their normal performance level, maybe fatigue, and can you recognize when that is happening to you. If you want to develop as an aviation professional or enthusiast focus on Prevention and Situation analysis.

[@hsvenforcer]

@Appleshaz its not uncommon for no wind to be given on departure (hence listen to the ATIS). I spot at YMML quite often and dont recall ever hearing winds for departure unless asked for

[@jeffou64]

@FuenferBMW USAIRWAYS's callsign is "Cactus" since octobre '08 and the merge with America West. Before that, Cactus was America West callsign and US AIR was USAIRWAYS's callsign.

[@Transport1]

I wonder why the United 1448 pilot first said, he's at runway 23R. I think this was conducive too, to confuse the tower. Additionally she didn't notice, that the pilot corrects to "23L" and that he was saying "somebody took off"

[@d1g1dave]

@mkarnerfors Thanks for the heads up - very informative.

[@seerkann]

United says they are on 23R instead of 23L but he clearly states that K is on his right and also he is on ACTIVE RUNWAY but she still says Clear for Take off for US Air... That US Air Captain saved peoples life and also they should revoked AtC license...This job you can NOT make mistakes and say Humans can make mistakes.... There is no tolerance on this job... And also this is Providence Airport which is very simple of runways and taxi ways.. It is not complicated... Very good job Us Air Captai

[@akfox38]

This is scary. Not sure that the controller should have been allowed to keep working in the field. Yes, it was a mistake but because she continued to be annoyed with the lost flight, she missed at least two obvious pieces of information that were supplied to her that clearly showed the plane was on or near an active runway.

[@tkchippsy]

im glad this episode of air crash investigation was avoided.

[@erauprcwa]

This is a perfect example of deviating from a clearance and not listening to people on the radio. UA 1448 said they see the Kilo taxiway but the controller pretty much say NO.

[@christovb]

That was chilling as well, when she cleared USair 2998 for takeoff 5R

[@mceyran]

@Northstander Yeah, I don't understand why the ATC still clears the other plane for takeoff. I can't imagine they don't have an airport map in front of them and know where the United plane must be when it reports taxiway K on the right.

[@GlideslopeCaptured]

WOW. I can't believe how many lives the USAir 2998 probably saved by not taking off. Fantastic pilot, God bless!

[@jimbobeire]

@danetrain0101 - what use are binoculars in very heavy fog? All she needed to do was hold traffic, think about what the pilot is telling her. He messed up by taking wrong turn, and told her the was on 23R rather than 23L, but he also said he was on Kilo,(which doesn't meet 23R) and someone took off, so she should clear up the conflicting info before clearing any more movements. USAir guy used his head at least.

[@damani3999]

This is actually Providence Airport TF Green KPVD not Ft Lauderdale. The pilot the decided not to take off was given an award for his actions.

[@JuneDreaming]

I am NOT a pilot but I am a bit of a rogue scholar when it comes to aviation. It sounds to me like ATC is competely out of line and the pilot of the plane is the only one who knows what is going on here.

[@DG121480]

Agreed!!! I'd like to hire him privately next time I fly!

[@debiassi]

I beg to differ, the controller cleared the the second aircraft to go which could have been fatal, as soon as the captain of the united heard this, he reported, maam, we are trying to tell you we are on the active runway. Now of course they shouldnt have been there but to try and clear the second aircraft when she was not sure of uniteds position was putting lifes at risk,especially when she reported she couldnt see them from the tower? Bad mistakes made by both united cres and tower controller

[@Dream0Asylum]

Aren't you curious as to why several pilots and the tower are having trouble sussing out the situation? It was foggy, the pilot missed his given taxi directions and ATC couldn't eye-ball a correction. The bad call was clearing traffic for take-off without first correcting the way-ward traffic. She assumed the equipment was holding safely on Kilo when in fact it was only meters from the active runway.

[@BorisKnoT]

Her attitude almost killed few hundreds of people. "They are not anywhere near the runway but you can hold short" How do you know bitch if you don't see from the tower?! Grrrrr

[@graemejwsmith]

@Sooksawaspakdee961 Many modern aircraft have GPS sets as you suggest but many more do not. If you do not you can ask for a "progressive taxi" and the controller will talk you through the taxi one leg at a time - verifying where you are at the end of each leg of the taxi.

[@josephdale69]

After the United Captain spoke, I expected to hear some mariachi music.

[@johntempleton3560]

USAir 2998, proactively well done captain and crew. im curious if there was any punishment or verbal reprimand for the ATC. i know these controllers have intellectually high octane jobs, but in this case the controller was about to allow a take off by USAir 2998, immediately after united declared confusion for their intended turn and present whereabouts

[@raoulcruz4404]

At the very least the ATC got retrained. The USAir crew did receive an award from their company.

[@Marksman42]

Great job US 2998 for making a good call and preventing another incident!

[@nmcarpenter]

Pay attention, she clearly advised she could not see anything out her window.

[@snoobeagle]

I agree with an earlier poster. All takeoffs and landings should have been suspended until all units could report being off of any runway, active or inactive. 2998's Captain made the right call and should be commended. Additionally, I'd like to encourage all commercial pilots to initiate a goaround ANY time they have doubts. To heck with connecting flights and passenger irritation. *I'll* pay for the fuel of subsequent approaches if that's an issue. Thanks!

[@sideslip2threshold]

I happen to be a pilot (of only small planes though but I do fly out of international airports). Amazed-at the ATC controller!

[@Staldren]

Watching this video I remembered the Tenerife airport disaster in 1977, it is almost the same situation, the only difference is that the KLM pilot decided to start rolling unlike USAir 2998, and of course the 583 lives lost.

[@13rdp]

USAIR 2998, that's one good airmanship!

[@maxsmodels]

And remember, it all started with one wrong turn. The United capt should have referenced his compass because his bearings were way off. At least he was quick to tell tehm he was lost. The controller should not have assumed he was where he said he was since he was obviously disoriented. Bravo for US Air. Glad there was one adult in the crowd.

[@granskare]

in 1995 our ual 727 was on the active runway in take off roll and suddenly we stopped and turned around and went back. Seems another jet was landing on the runway somewhat aligned with us. After that other plane landed, we went on. TOWER ERROR

[@shaneboulds]

@babytweeze85 this airport was solid imc.. there was less than 1/4m vis. she couldnt see the runways.

[@Kopihucky]

Classic example of someone who refuses to believe they are wrong. Except in this case it could of cost many lives.

[@ps3songs]

bravo to the US air!!

[@shannonshore]

Great video - thanks for putting that up - got to hand it to that USAir2998 pilot for taking no chances and refusing to take off until he was sure it was safe to do so

[@bassbonebobo]

As a pilot I can say that the United captain telling the controller "Ma'am, I'm trying to advise you, we're on an active runway, United 1448." should have been taken more seriously. She should have stopped and looked at the airport diagram and she would have realized exactly where they were. The last thing she should do is clear another aircraft to take off. If the USAir pilot wasn't on the ball and had accepted his clearance she would have been resonsible for the collision.

[@TraceUK]

Where can u hear the un-cut version?

[@AAL558]

Idk maybe the pilot should have been a bit more specific like "Someone just took off and flew right over us, I believe were on an active runway" I'm pretty sure they could've told the difference between runway lights and taxiway lights.

[@Lordprestor]

What about the tower, "he's no where near the active", situationaly, she didn't have the picture also...I mean, when "Kilo" was mentioned, it should have fired off some alarm bells. The USair guy DID have the picture...you could sense it.

[@beergut111]

they cut a lot out of this clip....ive seen the unedited version and there is a lot more going on there.

[@cageordie]

Well done 2998. ATC needs some retraining, and maybe a map. Since she did not know where her wandering aircraft had gone how was she so certain it wasn't where it said it was?

[@jeremyc311709]

I realize that we have an advantage here looking at this animation, but still it shouldnt have been this hard for united to find their way to the gate.... thats why you have airport diagrams. Also the girl in the tower shouldve been more cooperative

[@damani3999]

correct and they actually recieved an award for this. PVD sine then has installed ground radar equipment

[@OnTheRun167]

Why did the aircraft turn on bravo? Was there no sign marking it?

[@wadesworld2112]

The controller was massively at fault, but so was the aircrew. How about "Ground, 1448, we're just going to taxi the hell off this runway and then you can figure out where we are."

[@modneonj]

For a the full, 7-minute UNEDITED, FULL version of the situation, copy and paste the following text to the KZbin video search: "United 1448 Runway Incursion at Francis Green, RI"

[@bengals101]

AWESOME job by that last plane.possibly saved a lot of lives

[@MrAFJones]

A chain of such simple, innocent mistakes can so often lead to the worst mishaps. Much respect to the crew of 2998 to stay put. I'm sure many crews would have blindly followed the ATC instructions. Good on them, saved hundreds of lives.