Update on the Axis 4mm shafts + subscriber questions!!

[@martinduke4644]

Great job! I love your enthusiasm and tech savvy. I’m an old guy that’s been killing White-taileds with arrows for more than 50 years. I haven’t shot a different arrow since Gold Tip starting making 5575’ decades ago, and I don’t even know how much they weight. Heck, I don’t even know the draw weight of my bow. After making more than 800 bow kills, this I do know...deer don’t care what brand of camo the hunter is wearing, they don’t care how well groomed the hunter’s beard is or not, they are not interested in what brand bow, arrow, speed, or broadhead they are shot with, and THEY DO NOT LIVE LONGER THAN A MINUTE ONCE ANYTHING GOES THRU BOTH LUNGS! You are a great teacher. 🏹🦌🇺🇸

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Thank you Martin! Couldn't have said it better myself. I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from you

[@royhoglund1322]

I decided to go with the Snyder Core Iron Will system with my Easton 4mm and I used the HIT insert epoxy and glued them in as a solid one piece system with the Iron Will impact collar. So far so good!

[@ppha7665]

Good to know about the low temp hot melts.

[@nathantomas7653]

What your explaining in regards to heat sensitivity when trying to remove points is something I've only had problems with Easton products. Less of an issue with Kill'n Stix, black eagle or gold tip.

[@Prime_Operon_Outdoors]

Thanks for the update. I have been using the 4mm Axis Long Range without issues this year. I have been putting in two 20 grain HIT inserts with Insert Iron and no issues. I started doing stacked inserts with the older Injections as there were rumors of splitting and the double inserts seemed to fix the problem. Never had an issue with Injections splitting either. Love the channel. Thanks!

[@chrisbahlmann4263]

Thats why when I ordered from you guys I intentionally got the aluminum half outs. They cover about 1/8" or 1/16" of the outside as well and DRASTICALLY help with blowing out the end. As for the hot melt, you guys sent me the blue cold melt with my arrows but I was a bit leery and ended up using the "hunt bond" hot melt. I've shot hundreds of times so far and haven't had a single issue! I even accidentally shot through a big target into a 2x4 that was being used as a backer for the target and I had to reef my arrow out as hard as I could to get it out and no damage whatsoever! I don't believe I'm ever damaging my carbon when I put my half outs in and thats because I held them in my hand and used a lighter to heat the hot melt. I heard somewhere to do this because if its not hot enough to burn your finger then its not hot enough to damage the carbon. The arrows I made are 465 grains and I'm shooting a touch over 70 lbs

[@josephtreadlightly5686]

I've had ZERO issues with my full momentum Victory VAP TKO'S. From 515 to 570 total grains. But I did use AAE Max Impact glue that I keep in my fridge. Can't say the same for lesser shafts that aren't beefed up. I've tested alot & an arrow build is probably the 1 thing that will give u perfect arrow flight & penetration with no half measure retrofit.👏

[@njd624]

I had an observation with the titanium outsert from Easton during my procomp setup. Dry fit the outsert and hold it up to a lighted background. They do not sit flush on the arrow shaft. And yes, the arrows were squared off. Not sure if it is specific to the procomps (perhaps the internal aluminum sleeve has something to do with it). Seems that could def cause issues with hard impact.

[@speku8339]

All my arrrow and bow setup problems disappeared when I swiched from Easton to Victory VAP arrows.

[@msarchery7053]

Vap Tko 300's were awesome, switched to Vap SS because I need 250 spine with the new 80lb Ventum. Great Arrows

[@kadinallen5190]

I shot a 6x7 bull shooting a 345 grain arrow pulling 50lbs and a 24 inch draw and it penetrated to the fletchings.

[@owsowmuskwanaistus9213]

how many yards away?

[@ryanpeterson9838]

I only use the low temp hot melt. My victory outserts being one full piece would slightly move out like if you tried to install it with the nock installed. They never mushroomed like those. I have since switched to ethics archery. 61 lbs bow 28.5 draw with 4mm 447 grain arrow and have no issues so far. Time will tell.

[@averagejackarchery]

"Really heavy arrow is a band-aid for a poor shot." I NEED that on a t-shirt.

[@davidholliday2703]

The animal often changes the shot. You cannot change that. You can't beat them.

[@Sapper_Rage]

If you actually thought about it, that's the point... you played yourself.

[@houghtonic1975]

I am pulling 80lbs at 31” draw. It is shooting in the mid to high 270s with a 575 grain arrow. It shows your knowledge that you would know the FPS off the top of your head.

[@benb2942]

You can always Plug it into an online arrow calculator online for free 🏹

[@msarchery7053]

Agreed, 82 lb ventum @ 28.5 draw. 570 grain arrow going 278 fps.

[@greatlakeshuntingandtracking]

Moving from a 550 g set to a 450 g set up next fall.

[@brockpeck7073]

I've never had luck with the hot melt. Just shooting a target at home the inserts were pulling out for me. I now use slow curing gorilla glue. No problems.

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

Switch to Victory arrows. I did and have Never had issues like this with it without hot melt.

[@gregdudley780]

Iron will snydercore, collars, x impact, regular hot melt zero issues. 511grain 70lb 29 draw.

[@brianfuller3531]

Hey just wanted to add to what you discussed about the inserts, I've been shooting the axis long range all season shooting 3d and I used the bohning insert iron with great results. The only issue I had was when I hit a piece of metal in a target

[@guywhosleepallday8194]

Good thing I didn't get those arrow. Im just gonna keep my 5mm axis.

[@Buran01]

Yep. I've been using 5 mm Axis for a year in target and 3D with Bohning blue melt without problems, and recently started to use also the 6 mm Bloodline (due the Axis are a bit heavy) with the same glue and again all perfect: the glue is way stronger than the carbon fiber of the arrow. IMO the problem is the arrow: 4 mm forces to either use deep six or half outs, and both works worse than in a 5 mm or 6 mm arrow due the leverage they made when hit in a slighly slanted trace.

[@feralgrandad4429]

@@Buran01 I'm using the Axis 5mm's. Been thinking of going to the Bloodlines as the slightly lower gpi means I can increase my FOC a bit. Plus, my local pro shop has a deal on them at the moment. How do you like them please?

[@Buran01]

@@feralgrandad4429 I like them a lot and today are my go-to for target and 3D, but please mind that I don't hunt and can't deliver experience in that ground. The Axis are tougher and only mushroom against direct impacts vs rocks, concrete or (rarely) when they get hit by another arrow, whereas the Bloodline are more frail and slanted impacts vs hard wood can break the shaft, but with the Axis my tipical build at 29.5" draw weigths ~485 grains with 50 grain brass inserts and a 100 grain bullet, whereas with the Bloodline and 9 grain aluminum inserts my current build weigths ~405 grains, which at #60 delivers a much flatter trajectory. I plan to test the Hexx sometine later in this year, albeit their provided inserts seem weak (as the ones in the 4 mm Axis).

[@YoureSoVane]

I'm doing a build with the Valkyrie center pin target points. I'm hoping the extra strength preserves the expensive carbon.

[@Mackahroney]

27" draw with a 516 gr arrow at 260fps, sticking to this and its not super heavy. I hunt in the northeast so I'm not planning to shoot out to +60 yards. bow is a ventum 30 at 72lbs fyi

[@feralgrandad4429]

Nice 👍

[@juestinsaul5443]

I run a 7 pin IQ sight with built-in range finder. It allows me to range a target at full draw. I'm running a 535 grain 300 spline after math and get 80 yards. Run a 3 degree off set 3 fletch tac vein. But I do have epoxy for the insert.

[@steven_farmer89]

First and foremost, thank you for bringing up the issue and what to do to fix it. I have looked at the Easton axis 4 and 5 mm and they aren’t cheap, can’t afford to set them up wrong. I will ask, have you tried or heard about the spinning inserts by ethics archery. There aren’t a lot of videos discussing it, it seems good but not sure if it’s a gimmick or not.

[@feralgrandad4429]

Been using the Axis 5mm's for couple years. Very, very tough arrow. I'll not be trading for the 4mm any time soon 😁

[@feyrband]

@@feralgrandad4429 you using hot/cool melt or epoxy?

[@tradrodsandcustoms]

I can vouch for that, had an insert spin early on so y’all redid em with epoxy. I haven’t had any of these issues and I’ve hit hard stuff

[@cobain2261]

I was thinking about using these with the Iron Will inserts and impact collar with a deep six broadhead. That seems like a very strong system. Outserts seem like a bad idea.

[@bretheckenberger6044]

Great video with great information. Well done!

[@crabwalk1891]

Nice!! That daughter story was perfect timing. My wife after shooting for a few years is finally going to let me take her out this year with a deer tag! I never cared so much about her arrow or setup while slinging arrows in the back yard but now I’m pondering those thoughts. She’s a 25” draw pulling 47lbs. Her current arrow weight is 330 which equates to 232 FPS. I plan on bumping that up to 345ish but I don’t want to lose to much speed. She’s shooting a Mathews SDX Chill. Thoughts?!

[@davidholliday2703]

Aaron on The Hunting Public shot clean through an Elk front to back at 22 yards with a 640 grain arrow. He pulls 70 pounds about a 31 inch draw. He also cut the humorous off a big buck at about 16 yards and stuck in the off side shoulder after cutting through a branch first. He is shooting a plan B arrow and sooner or later, plan B gonna come for all of us but you can still get your animal. Do you but think about a happy medium. 😊

[@tonykeith971]

I used Gorilla impact tough glue to install my inserts, and I can promise you they will hold up. I bent a insert and was able to straighten it using a arrow spinner and some patience.

[@HuntsT]

Gorilla super glue is the best glue I've found as well. Although if you want to index broadheads then it makes it tough due to it drying very fast

[@TheWVgoodguy22]

Nice follow up on the 4mm Axis for everyone. I jumped my set up from a 430 grain arrow (didn’t know what it was at the time) to 511 grain with standard nocks and 100 grain fixed blade. Would be 525 with the lighted nock. The new arrow is 11.25 vs 9.3 in the old at 29 inches. I have my bow set at 60 lbs. When I shot my first few arrows after having the lighter set up (80 grain difference) I was hitting the dirt at 30 vs middle of the target 🎯. But now I am sighted in much better. I have thought about building my own arrows and splitting the difference at that 470-480 mark. While sticking with the 340 spine. My 511 grain arrow chrono at 264 FPS though out of my old 2006 PSE. Thank you for the advice on that and the helical vanes

[@douglastrantham8118]

Love the channel man!

[@ericHi5]

Do the factory fletched axis LR arrows come with helical vanes? Awesome informative video thank you. Maybe I should learn to fletch myself maybe a video idea for you.

[@Antskillet]

Gotta know your range before you let the arrow fly no matter what arrow also extremely over exaggerating the drop of a 600 to 700 grain arrow I shoot a 7 pin and have no issues with that I can easily get 130 out of the sight if I slide it closer to the riser. any shot over like 60 yards is super risky anyways regardless of how good you are, so much can happen in those seconds the arrow is in flight , the 475 grain arrow at 60 yards could stop on a elk rib especially with a mechanical when a 6 to 700 wouldn’t at any ethical range also gotta remember that light arrows speed drops off much faster then a heavy arrow will at anything at those types of ranges so you will notice an exaggerated pin gap at further ranges much more then with the heavy arrow, all the pins are almost spaced the same where as my light arrows have a much larger pin gap at ranges over 40 yards

[@jasonard7227]

29 inch draw 76# V3 31 pushing 531 grain arrow 290 fps and every deer I have shot has been a pass through even on not so good shots same with my vxr and my bowtech bows. since moving from 400ish grain arrows and mechanical heads its night and day better before with the light arrows almost never got pass through unless it was perfect between the ribs or guts. arrow flight is just as good I can get 100 yards out of my sight no problem now im not good that far but the sight will do it. love the channel just dont agree with ya on this one God bless

[@jamesibarra2394]

Gorilla glue hot melt works well. Never have come lose just heat it up with heat gun. Try the impact gorilla glue

[@yerbeilisready8562]

I've used both of those and have never had any issue

[@darrind8697]

FWIW the ranch fairy did a recent episode with the hunting public were they had an engineer with some high tech radar/chrono and tested the strong helical vs others (as well as other tests) and though they expected otherwise out to 60 it didnt make a difference ie the expected parachute effect didnt degrade arrow flight .

[@bmills231]

That video was good. I saw things in a heavier set up (within reason) that changed some of my view on heavy builds. The #1 thing I took away from that video though was that arrows between 480-600 grains and traveling in that 265-280 fps range are going to be fairly similar and all very adequate. There is far more testing and info available that show if you shoot the heaviest arrow you can while being in that range of speed you will have the most efficient arrow top to bottom. When you can have trajectory, momentum and energy why wouldn't you.

[@fletchdeeptv1958]

IF you look up equations that calculate drag force, the velocity term is squared. So it may not effect Ranch Fairy arrows at super slow speeds, whereas something closer to 300fps will see a much bigger impact.

[@bmills231]

In their video faster setups were losing speed faster, but they were still moving faster than the super heavy arrows at impact. Also, my point was that there seems to be an undeniable sweet spot between that 270-280fps range. Just my opinion.

[@reddawng43x91]

Ranch fairy is a googan

[@leanrali620]

Great insight, i enjoy your videos and learn tons!!! Thank and cheers from Spain* Amigo ;)

[@josephfolsom2030]

What bow did you use to kill those arrows?

[@charleslefebvre5515]

We've been using goldtip tip grip on the axis 4mm inserts in our shop without issue. If it's worked on victory vaps or vap tko's without issue don't see why the axis 4mm would be different. We've still been able to removed outserts without wrecking carbon for the most part. Curious if you think it's possible that the hot melt didn't allow the outsert to fully seat against the carbon and have the lip sit over the carbon properly? Maybe that would explain the outsert pushing into the shafts especially the one that didn't hit anything.

[@CAB75]

I shoot the AAE max stealth in 4 fletch. My bow just shoots better with them than anything else. Will they work on the 4mm? I had a set of these in my hands but nobody could answer me so I didn’t get them. I’m 28” draw at 68lbs. Thanks for any help you can offer. I get a lot of information from your channel. Keep up the good work. Thanks 👍👍👍

[@brendanmurnane9268]

I’m gonna be that guy!! Go watch ranch fairy’s last few videos about momentum and KE he actually does some pretty cool tests that show heavy arrows are good for both KE and momentum loved the video tho man!!

[@andrewbean5163]

totally agree!!! THP kind of debunked the theory that a lighter/faster arrow has higher performance

[@F14Goose37]

Your response to this is way more brief than mine 😁 I like it. That was the most ignorant thing I have ever heard him say. Love his videos but heavy is the way to go.

[@brendanmurnane9268]

@@F14Goose37 haha love heavy to man!! Just got some new Apollo’s today

[@F14Goose37]

@@brendanmurnane9268 Nice! New arrows are always fun! I need to get some new FMJs. I only have a handful of hunting arrows now and the rest are only suitable for practice.

[@andrewbean5163]

@@brendanmurnane9268 Excellent!!!!! I bought a dozen Apollos a few months back and have been lovin them. Running 250's with 275 out front

[@cwalter2013]

About helical, the Arizona EZ-Fletch mini max, you consider that to much helical, or just on upper end of degree?

[@F14Goose37]

So the guy who developed the Blazer vane did a bunch of testing a while back and found that about a 3 degree helical is ideal. Above 3 degrees you don't see much benefit according to him. I know that a couple jigs use about a 3° on their helical clamps, but I don't know what the EZ fletch uses.

[@caseywise7348]

I have x- impacts 166 I'd look into ethics archery

[@romanracela]

I like the Victory SHOK TL half out inserts. The sleeve has a lot more overlap with the carbon shaft. You can use this with the Easton 4mm Axis. Thanks to you I’ve been using blue Hot Melt to glue in my inserts. So far I haven’t had issues.

[@raymondjones1866]

You must follow the same Facebook page with the debate on arrow weight and helical degrees I get into it all the time with them hahaha. I like your thinking and your a tinkerer with your equipment like me I like being in the 468gr 340s with a 28in FMJs match grades with a 3°right helical same with my sons FMJs cut at 26.5 443gr I sent them videos of lazer beams from my sons V3 dropping arrows at 100yds on a Glendale Buck set at 72lbs with 340s li like to keep my short compact fixed broadheads in the 270 to 280fps seems to be the sweet spot .I also watched a interesting video on nock pinch by Bormar with a bare nock on the string and drawing with a drawboard to look for nock lift except he used a constrictor knots that I'm not a fan of with slippage but only use over and under knots with 6 bottom and 3top it definitely lifts if it gets tight at full draw with short ata bows. That should be your next topic on nock pinch.

[@l.i.archer5379]

Hot melt glue won't keep the insert fixed inside the carbon arrow shaft. Upon impact, the hot melt will allow the insert to slide back into the shaft, hence why your arrows are all mushroomed. You need to fix the inserts in place with some strong cyanoacrylate glue or 24-hr epoxy, so they don't slide on impact.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Yep figured that out pretty quick

[@l.i.archer5379]

@@InsideOutPrecision also, that small sanding stone you used to get with the HIT inserts is what should have been used to chamfer the inside edge of the shaft opening to accommodate the chamfer at the transition of the field point from the neck and the point. That's the part of the field point that's spreading out the end of the arrow shaft.

[@joefaiman2510]

So just curious when I order these from the shop am I gonna get the low temp stuff or the overnight stuff. Ordered a couple months ago TIA

[@lynmills6816]

The only caveat I would add is that a lighter arrow will not perform well when using a mechanical broadhead. It’s best to use a fixed blade and learn to tune it.

[@bernardlennon8368]

I’ve just started shooting the 4mm long range in a 250 spine. I’m shooting them full length as I have 34” draw length. I’m shooting them out of Mathews Atlas 65lb mods. Think I’m running around 270-275 FPS. I used regular hot melt as I couldn’t fine any cool melt at any of my local dealers. I haven’t had any issues yet. I’ve only been bare shaft tuning so far but out to 40 yds. Just wondering your thoughts or opinions on continuing to use the reg hot melt from bowhning? I’m a little concerned now after watching this especially since I plan to hunt with them?!?! I have only glued up 6 so far to test out. Should I switch to hit epoxy for hunting purposes?

[@Sapper_Rage]

The hit epoxy works great, if you go through that process you can't go wrong with it. It'll only be an issue if you like to switch your arrow setups often.

[@mm88swrt]

I used to always use hot melt for that same reason and for tuning. Got tired of not having 100% adhesion and just started gluing them in. This is all on my hunting bow with 458gn arrow and 304fps

[@wcwcgarner2717]

I shoot the axis 5mm. They work great. And I shot some hard things.

[@chrisochoa1222]

Why not just add sleeves its a win win. Your arrow will not pick up much weight.... You can continue to run hot melt and you will have a reinforced arrow up front which is where HIT inserted arrows have issues epoxy or not. No they don't break all the time with just HIT but it prevents cracking and breaking which the Axis and HIT arrows have had issues with in the past.

[@Gibsonlife573]

I'm telling you you wanna arrow it's like a drum does not broke and it does not break I I've shot it dead into a tree with a 75 pound bow and that's the day six arrow Is there a little bit heavy for grains per inch

[@flyman91ify]

I have a 24 inch draw length Pulling back to 60 pounds how do I select an arrow

[@Sapper_Rage]

Try putting an ironwill titanium collar on the shaft first and then installing the titanium half outsert over it. I messed around with some spare pieces and made a setup similar to my advice. They fly great and are durable.

[@owsowmuskwanaistus9213]

thats why you need to stick with standard diameter arrows

[@davidcarlson6704]

I am looking for an arrow for my Mathew’s atlas and I can’t find an arrow to fit. My draw is 34” @75lbs maybe you have an idea.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

I think gold tip makes 200 spine arrow that is 34.5".

[@d123avek1]

I hear what you're saying but, I've used low temp (blue) hot melt in ALL of my carbons forever. Currently Goldtip kp platinums, also shoot Airstrikes. Have shattered an arrow once when it smacked a rock sideways, but never had tip issues like that, ever. Hit trees, fenceposts, spines, you name it. That's super sketchy, imo.

[@royhoglund1322]

What was her arrow set up?

[@andrewbean5163]

So this is a very interesting video. I just had this exact conversation with my local Bow shop and I still don't understand the theory behind shooting faster. I am a central PA whitetail hunter and a 50 Yard shot is crazy long for me so why wouldn't i want to maximize my downrange momentum by increasing weight? if i think about it in terms of rifle hunting, I wouldn't shoot a deer with a 22-250 just because its traveling at 4000 fps. once the arrow impacts the "target" that is where a heavy arrow really shines. the weight takes over and goes through the deer regardless of what it hits.

[@madwe2269]

I'm also a PA whitetail hunter, I refuse to shoot over 40yds, and I still shoot a 400gr arrow at 60 lbs 28.5 inches. I'll give in to your gun analogy. I wouldn't shoot a deer with a 17 hornet (300-350gr arrow), but I would gladly shoot one with a 243 (390-420gr arrow), a 270 (440-470gr arrow), however I wouldn't shoot one with a 338 lapua (stupidly heavy arrow) because at that point I'm just using more powder, bullet, and recoil to do the same job as the others. A pass through is a pass through, if my 400gr arrows are making it through our deer every time, why would I shoot a 600gr arrow and do nothing but kill my speed and trajectory? And before you even fucking say "shOuLdEr PuNChiNG", there's 4 ways you can miss, high, low, left, and right. The left and right miss will change depending on what way the deer is facing, but either way, you can miss 3 out of 4 ways that aren't towards the shoulder. Most people miss high/low. Misjudging a 34yd shot as 39 with my setup is still lethal, with a 600gr Ranch Fairy arrow going low 200 whatever fps, you're going to miss. Not to mention, if that deer takes a step when you shoot, you'll have a much higher chance of getting a gut shot than me. Take your heavy arrows and shove them where they belong, a cape buffalo.

[@andrewbean5163]

@@madwe2269 I'm not sure why, but this seems to be such a polarizing topic among the archery community and I have experienced this same type of comment about heavy arrows multiple times. Lets not forget that the weight of your arrow is just an opinion, no different than the manufacturer of your bow or the number of pins in your sight. Now i know that each individual has there own experiences and reasons for shooting whatever weight they are but to say things like "shOuLdEr PuNChiNG" and to hold such prejudice against someone's opinion is very disrespectful. I shoot a heavy arrow because I wounded a buck with a 400 grain arrow and as I replay the shot placement over again in my head it seems perfect. All I'm saying is that there are facts to back both 400 grain and 600 grain arrow builds and you have to figure it out for yourself. P.S. i carry a 45-70 deer hunting so I guess the heavy arrow kind of falls inline there haha

[@msarchery7053]

As my latest experience has taught me, shooting 82lbs, 545 grain fixed blade setup going 290. Reality is that even with that kind of steam, the offside shoulder managed to stopped the momentum. That said, Iron will left single bevel setup weighing 570 gr are now being fired at 278 fps. Pass through being the goal, easier to track(if they don't drop in sight) with 2 holes for sure. 400 gr will do the job, but deer move potentially placing bone in the way. I like my backup plan and if I miss low due to distance at least I'm not gut punched for a wounded animal.

[@DelraySwampViking]

I just had to switch to 200 spine arrows and I couldnt get VAPS in that spine so I bought black eagle x impact 4mm arrows. Im 31" draw at 80 lbs and they shoot perfect but I have some concerns with the outsert system. Whats your opinion on black eagle x impacts? Im using the victory 50 grain taper lock insert/outsert with them. They are super accurate but Im not sure how convinced I am they are structurally as sound as a 5MM arrow would be.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

I like the black eagles a lot more than vaps

[@DelraySwampViking]

@@InsideOutPrecision do you think 4mm has integrity issues comparative to 5mm, assuming quality components are installed properly for each respectively

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@DelraySwampViking they've been just as tough as the 5mm so far once I used the right glue to install the outserts

[@owsowmuskwanaistus9213]

only way to know is go out and kill something

[@WM-jy9dz]

...the kinetic energy (1/2 mv2) transferred from the bow into the arrows depends on the efficiency - that is the reason why we use the 5 grain per pound of poundage rule as the efficiency drops with a lighter arrow and the energy that can't be transferred into the arrow would destroy the bow. *IF* the efficiency would be the same no matter what the arrow weights (which roughly is the case above this threshold), the kinetic energy would be the same too, hence would only depend on the poundage and the draw length of the bow, but *NOT* on the arrow weight!!!. Now, while the kinetic energy would be the same, is this also valid for the impulse? ....the equation for the impulse is "mass x velocity" (if we assume that the arrow comes to a full stop in the target), and if we just do a comparison with e,g, an arrow1 that weights 500 grain and travels with 250 fps and and arrow2 that travels with 279.5 fps (both arrows will have the same kinetic energy - do the math!) it actually shows that the impulse caused by the heavier arrow is higher. However!!!!!! ....physics tells us that the energy that has to be absorbed by the target must be the same as the kinetic energy (the energy can't just disappear), and believing that a high impulse is the only criteria for damaging a target (killing game) is a misconception. For every shot through the impulse is actually significantly reduced (the correct equation would be "mass of the arrow" multiplied with ("velocity of the arrow prior it hits the target" minus "velocity the arrow has when coming out of the target")...) you loose actually a significant amount of the max. impulse. So what kills the animal is the part of the energy that is absorbed by the body, and there is no difference whether this is the result of an heavy arrow with a lower speed or a lighter arrow with a higher speed as long as the kinetic energy is the same. So in case of shot-throughs the debate about what type of arrow delivers a bigger impulse is nonsense as the kinetic energy is far more than needed to provide the killing damage. Hence I personally would always opt for more speed instead of more weight to capitalize at least somehow on the performance of modern compound bows.

[@justlee9797]

What arrow do you recommend for someone looking for a middle of the road arrow in speed and weight

[@Sapper_Rage]

What's your bow speed, draw length, draw weight? I use a hoyt Ventum 33 and it's set to 72 lbs, 31" draw length, using a 29" arrow that's 553gr, and I'm getting 274fps.

[@justlee9797]

@@Sapper_Rage I’m using a pse evo ntn 33 at 28” 70# with a 415 grain arrow getting roughly 295

[@reddawng43x91]

400-440grains if your bow is 305 plus

[@michaelswenson8399]

Up front I want to say that I think an archer should shoot whatever they want. That being said, one thing I think needs to be mentioned is pin gap and heavy arrows. The common misconception is that the gaps will be too big because the arrow is so heavy. That’s not the case and it’s been proven. The one thing that is true is the overall Max height of the parabolic arc is higher but the speed erosion is minimal compared to lighter arrows. So if you happen to be a western open country hunter taking a 76 yard shot, good luck with the gap on a 400 grain arrow. Once you get to around 600 and beyond every gap past 40 is damn near the same, roughly 1/4 inch. This makes gaping longer shots much easier. Just food for thought. Shoot whatever the heck you want! But understand the reasons why you chose whatever it is you did.

[@c.b.7830]

Well put. I think most people will shoot a setup because "so and so said it's the best" and have no understanding why.

[@austinphillips9966]

A lot of this is broadhead choice if you shoot 60lbs and a 380 grain arrow with 2inch broadhead you’re gonna have problems

[@progradepainting3755]

I think the argument that a heavy arrow is not as good as a balanced arrow is wrong. It’s wrong because it’s not a one size fits all answer. Each has its place, and I can’t see how this hasn’t been seen yet. I have two bows, each I’ve built up for both both sides of the spectrum. (A ranch fairy build, and essentially an Aron Snyder balanced arrow build.) They both have their place. Out of a blind, or tree stand, where the shots rarely exceed 50 yards, and there are wide open shooting lanes, why wouldn’t you want to throw battle axe arrows at even the smallest deer? They crush bones, take out both front legs on a marginal shot, the bow is quiet. In that case, overkill by an extremely heavy arrow with a nasty fixed head like those iron will wides is perfection. Would I take that into a back country spot and stalk hunt for coues deer or elk, where shots start at 30, and can easily go out to 80 or more? No way. That’s where the balanced arrow comes into play. That’s where mechanical heads and low profile arrow builds work better. Why can’t the Bowhunting community come to realize that these are different setups for different applications? We seem to be way behind the curve in bow hunting still.

[@mattthadd4663]

Ethics 4mm insert/collar has been great for me with x-impacts. Field tips are bent not the insert system. Swap out tips and move on.

[@bradnelson8410]

Throw away Easton’s inserts and use Victory’s outserts.

[@Gibsonlife573]

I went through a whole dozen of Eastern access access they're not a very good hero like bust very easy

[@davidfleer5307]

Arrow weight each shooter needs to find what works for them I’m one of those heavy ones 743 grain because it’s that you never know what that animal is going to do once that arrow leaves your bow but yes I’m 31.75 draw length 67 pounds bow and I had it happen the deer was 43 yards away standing still upon release he started walking and it hit him in the rear quarter went through one hit a main vein and into the other quarter dropped in it’s tracks so I got closer and put one in the lungs. And on the glue could it be friction that heats up the glue? 👍✌🏻🇺🇸

[@earlofcockwood1988]

This is not acceptable if you keep in mind how heavy these arrows are. If you shoot 3dhv which are very light… ok. But not with the gpi of the axis.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Just needed different glue.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Also those arrows aren’t heavy. They’re only 440gr total weight

[@moneyking6659]

I'm using the 4mm with the iron will snyder system. Have accidentally shot my table's metal leg and the arrow survived.

[@yerbeilisready8562]

I don't like the hit inserts. At all

[@TyrantExterminator1776]

I think a HIT INSERT with a IMPACT COLLAR would be a good system but the HIT SYSTEM alone I feel is weak, it's even the same with the half outs though I think ALL ARROWS should have an Impact collar regardless of INSERT USED.

[@rescueridgeadventures7776]

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[@F14Goose37]

I don't want to sound like a jerk but I am going to sound like a jerk. That argument against heavy arrows was about the most ignorant argument I have ever heard. First off, I have a strong suspicion you have never actually weighed arrows, shot different arrows over a chronograph, calculated KE and momentum and plotted the results out. I have done it with four completely different bows with similar results. My current hunting bow, for example is a 70# draw and 29 inch dl which shoots my small game 431 grain arrow at 283 feet per second giving me 76.63 foot pounds and .542 slugs. My big game arrows out of the same bow are 577 grains at 248 fps, 78.72 ft-lbs and .634 slugs. My 2318 target arrows which are admittedly way too heavy are 770 grains moving 218fps with 81.33 ft-lbs energy and carrying .746 slugs of momentum. Can't really check the speeds, you just have to take my word or know from experience that the speeds sound about right. You can check my math if you like. I don't have a huge sample number of bows I have done this with yet, but all of them do pretty much the same thing, and they all should. The physics does not change between bows. You are right saying momentum is what dictates penetration, but you are completely wrong concluding that momentum will ever favor the arrow weights you are talking about. From what I have seen momentum will peak far beyond the weights of arrows people building heavy arrows are building. For people shooting light poundage and short draw lengths, they should shoot through a chronograph and do the math to find out where their KE and momentum peak. I suspect it will still be quite a substantial arrow weight before that happens though. Also, since the heavier arrow will retain more energy (and momentum) and be less affected by wind, a short draw length, light poundage shooter could responsibly shoot game further with a heavy arrow than a light one. Other points you have made are also very weak arguments. For example, you mentioned animals jumping the string and also made the argument that heavy arrows are a band aid for poor shot placement. If you can acknowledge that animals can jump the string, and move their body while the arrow is in flight, then you HAVE to acknowledge that once the bow leaves the string, you have zero control over where it hits the animal. At that point, the animal has control over that. I don't care how good you are. In the case where the animal jumps the string and drops low, a heavy arrow gives you a MUCH better chance at killing and recovering the animal when the arrow impacts high. It also gives you a better chance at missing completely, which is better than chasing a sparse blood trail all night and day only to lose an animal you maimed by putting too light an arrow in it's scapula or a vertabrae. Similarly, when you talk about shot placement being key and then say you are willing to shoot an animal without ranging it, the shot placement argument is out the window again. If you are guessing slinging and praying, you are not being very precise with your shot placement. Again, since you are not being precise, a heavier arrow carrying more momentum (and ideally a more stout broadhead) is going to give you better odds of recovery on a less than perfect shot. Furthermore, the difference between 30 yds and 33yds with my 431 grain arrows is about 1.25 to 1.5 inches more drop. The difference for my 577 grain arrows is about 3.25-3.5 inches. My 770 grain target arrows have about 4 inches extra drop at those ranges. The extra two inches of drop difference between my 431 grain arrow and my 577 grain arrow is not worth the substantial drop in momentum I would give up to have an arrow that shoots a little flatter for when I decide range guessing is a responsible way to hunt. The physics does not change bow to bow or shooter to shooter. The difference is not as much as you think and it is certainly not as much as the animal can move in the time it takes your "fast" arrow to get to it. Lastly, if you have to make the argument that a heavier arrow is not going to hit the game straight, you are either reaching for any sort of valid argument or really bad at tuning arrows. Arrow weight is not what makes an arrow fly straight off the bow. There is no reason you can not make an arrow that flies straight off your bow that is within a desired weight. All three arrows I mentioned earlier shoot straight and if you go behind the target and follow where the shaft is pointing, it points right back to where I shot from no matter the distance I shot from. Once you find the weight range you want your arrow to be in, choose the components you need to be in that weight range and the balance you desire, build them, shoot them then tune from there. If your reference to the arrow not hitting straight on the target was because of the higher arc the heavy arrow takes, that does not matter one bit if the tail of the arrow is following the tip. I hunt out west too. I am an Arizonian and I hunt coues deer on the border. Coues deer are tiny and super skittish. They are very hard to get close to so longer shots are common. They also live in treacherous country that is easy to lose them in, even when they trail blood. If ever there was a type of hunter your arguments should resonate with, I am the guy. Hunting coues deer with light arrows and losing two of them on good hits is what drove me to start testing arrows and really thinking about the problem we are trying to solve. After watching the only coues deer I have shot under 40 yds (I shot him at about 17 yds) run off with about half of my arrow sticking out of him in a beautuful spot right behind the shoulder, I knew that there was something wrong with light arrows. My best guess is that the arrow buried in the far rib and stopped. With a heavier arrow and a more substantial broadhead, nothing is for sure, but chances are much better that the arrow would have found an exit and given me blood to follow. Then maybe I would have gotten to eat him instead of just being sad when my buddy found most of his remains including his beautiful skull and antlers eight months later.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Never had an issue with the arrow weights ive talked about. A poor shot that doesn't hit any vitals isn't going to kill an animal no matter how heavy your arrow is.

[@F14Goose37]

@@InsideOutPrecision I never argued that a poor shot that doesn't hit vitals would kill. My argument is there are some things you can not control, like what the animal does after the arrow leaves the string, which will affect the quality of your shot, and then there is the matter of not ranging every shot, which induces a whole lot of error into your shot, even with a fast arrow. So since you already acknowledged there are reasons your arrow may not hit exactly where you would like it to, operating under the idea that you are a good shot and your arrows go where you want them to and people shooting heavy arrows are just using that as a crutch is pure arrogance. If the deer moves and scapula makes its way in between your arrow and the vitals, or you hit a rib square on, or maybe on a quartering to shot, the deer turns a bit as it is bolting and your arrow finds itself with a lot more between it and vitals than it originally would have, would you rather have an arrow that drops momentum like a rock or has a lot of momentum to spare and retains it well? The problem only gets worse with yardage too. The further you shoot, the more the light arrow is at a disadvantage. It is great that your arrows have always worked for you, but be honest with yourself and the people you are giving advice to. A big part of your success is luck that the uncontrolled variables of a shot on a living animal did not line up right to ruin your success. It can happen with light or heavy arrows, but test it out and let me know if you can honestly tell me that your luck will hold out longer with those light arrows than with heavier arrows? If your answer is still that the lighter arrow is the better tool on big game, I think you need to put down your pride and honestly assess your thinking.

[@InsideOutPrecision]

@@F14Goose37 i totally understand what you're saying, and I'm not saying to shoot a "light arrow". I shoot 487 gr. But someone with a 26" dl pulling 60lbs is going to suffer shooting a 500+ grain arrow.

[@F14Goose37]

@@InsideOutPrecision I don't have data on anybody's bow with a 26" draw. I have taken data on a 27" DL bow at 55lb but I would have to ask my buddy for it because I didn't put it in my laptop and he has the sheet. That being said, I remember that his bow did pretty well with a pretty substantial weight of arrow. I think you ought to define what exactly you mean by somebody pulling 60lbs on a 26" draw is going to suffer. For me, I would consider peak KE to be the mark where adding weight to the arrow will start to be somewhat detrimental and that argument has merit. That is where the bow is most efficiently converting the energy you put in to it during the draw into useful work. Beyond peak KE, momentum is still climbing, so exceeding the arrow weight where you get peak KE is not necessarily a bad thing in my mind, but at that point you could make an argument that your bow performance is suffering because the arrow is too heavy. In that case, I do not have the data, but my gut tells me that on an average compound at 60# and 26 inch draw, peak KE will still be seen with an arrow weight well over 500 grains. If what you mean by performance suffering is something different than a KE or momentum argument, then define that and figure out how to test it. The most important thing is to test it. Be informed. Do the test. Make a video out of it if you like. I think once you actually have the data in front of you, I am sure your thought process on hunting arrows will change dramatically. Test everything too. Don't just weigh and shoot to calculate KE and momentum off the bow. Measure and calculate the KE and momentum at the target at different ranges. Compare that data and see if the lighter arrows ever have an advantage over the heavier arrows. Measure drop at different ranges and see how dramatic a ranging error is with different arrows. Measure time of flight of the arrow if you have a way to do that. Look at the practical difference between when the sound hits the animal, when a fast arrow hits the animal and when a slower heavier arrow hits the animal. Figure out how far out you would consider an arrow to be expected to be lethal. This will be more important in a lighter draw weight and short draw bow. I have measured and/or calculated most of these variables. I feel strongly about it because I have the evidence that tells me how I can be most effective with my bow and hunting experiences that let me know that if I don't bring my A game, I am more likely to have a negative experience. I want everybody to be as effective as they can be in the field and I know you do too. People listen to you, so it is really important that you put out good information. On this topic, I just think you are very poorly informed and what you said is not going to help people be as effective as they can be. And for what little it is worth, I 487grains is not a featherweight by any means, but it is still pretty light. Under 500 is pretty light and I would be floored if what I would consider a goldilocks arrow for your setup turns out to be any less than 550 grains. People like Ranch Fairy would probably say anything under 600 is on the light side, but he thinks about things a little bit differently than I do.

[@mariahpennell3628]

Yeah, I'm sure you know more about KE and momentum than Dr. Ashby who did extensive studies on the subject for 30 years. Unsubscribed.

[@WM-jy9dz]

well, there are a lot of paragraphs in Mr Ashby's "reports" that can be easily proven wrong, e,g, quote..... "Given two arrows of equal momentum, but with one deriving a greater portion of its momentum from mass than the other, the heavier arrow will change velocity (decelerate) at a slower rate as it passes through the tissues. the heavier arrow will change velocity (decelerate) at a slower rate as it passes through the tissues. ...quote end. As outlined in my comment above, equal momentum for different arrows is not possible if they are fired from the same bow that gives both arrows the same amount or kinetic energy, therefore Mr Ashby's statement is just malarkey.

[@mariahpennell3628]

@@WM-jy9dz See above comment.

[@owsowmuskwanaistus9213]

ouch !!!!!!

[@walderman55]

In your opinion what’s a solid arrow weight for 31.5 draw at 75lb? I shoot muzzy yep car fixed blades for hunting but I also want an arrow I can shoot at range with field tips. Do you have any thoughts?

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Something in 480- 530 range

[@InsideOutPrecision]

Actually more like 500-550

[@TyrantExterminator1776]

This is why I feel ALL AROWS should have their INSERT as well as a outside collar.