Gas Boilers No Longer Make Sense, Here Is Why.

[@Phil-kt6hc]

I'm not a plumber/ engineer but I find this channel a MUST watch. I love watching craftspeople working at the top of their game. We are just about to do a 4 metre extension to our house and I'm in the process of trying to find someone of the same class to sort out the heat calculations/ loss needed - wish me luck!

[@johnsmith-ik8il]

Same here

[@David-bl1bt]

The very best of luck, enthusiastic professionals such as these are very thin on the ground and obviously in high demand. Choose carefully and wisely.

[@marcexec]

good luck, at least you can talk shop now!

[@duds2423]

Use the heat geak recommended installers, thats what i did and found a great engineer close by

[@regcotterill7332]

@@duds2423 I approached a company that was Heat Geek approved specifically and got them to survey my home for Solar Panels. I thought there was a good chance that the layout meant there wasn't sufficient space for an effective installation. I thought the survey went well, the surveyor left making all the positive sounds. A month later I rang him for an update and see where the quotaton was. He gave me some BS about how he'd emailed me to say property wasn't suitable. Needless to say I didn't believe him. The point of this post is Heat Geek acreditation is no guarantee the company is any good if the people working there aren't honest.

[@andrewmaddison8492]

This video should be called "Gas boilers no longer make sense if installing an HP in a brand new, hugely insulated home with plenty of space for a plant room". Gas boilers still make a lot of sense for your average older home. Just my opinion.

[@jamiebrown8437]

Exactly what I was going comment. This guy knows his stuff and love some of his videos. But I can’t help but think he’s on the heat geek bandwagon and pushing his own little heat pump agenda

[@TheBarry1321]

That is what I was thinking, how can you fit all that lot in an airing cupboard.

[@definitelynotadam]

He actually made a video of a heat pump installation in a Victorian uninsulated house.

[@jamiebrown8437]

The one where he ruined it by sticking huge vertical steel rads all over the lovely period property 😂

[@andrewmaddison8492]

@@jamiebrown8437 it'll be interesting to see if he does a follow-up video on that victorian property in the height of winter 🤔

[@rufus_mcdufus]

That's all lovely, but the plant room alone looks about half the floor area of my entire house! I'd wish there was some integrated unit which reduced a lot of the external pipe work etc. and perhaps could sit outside, or in a garage. Even going back to having a water cylinder is problematic for those with small houses.

[@scots_knight4706]

Yes, this is going to be a problem for lots of people, in the real world modern houses don't seem to have much spare room and lots of older houses aren't properly insulated.

[@JeffersonHumber]

All that ‘stuff’ compared to a combi in a kitchen cupboard lol

[@ma40]

The internals can be fitted into much smaller spaces than that.

[@pumpkinhead456]

A pre plumbed cylinder would sit in the corner of a garage. The biggest issue would be for 2 up, 2 downs with very little cupboard space. Flats etc will need to move to district heating assuming we are all coming off gas.

[@Candisa]

Even in larger homes, a larger plant room vs an extra/larger storage-/bath-/bedroom/kitchen is a hard sell. This is the main reason I went with an oversized combiboiler last year: sure I have the space to put a seperate hot water cylinder and it would have multiple advantages in my home, but I happily waste a few Euro's of gas and water each month in order to have a larger kitchen with more storage for dry and frozen food so I don't have to drive my car to the supermarket as often and don't have to think about how much room I have in my freezer and pantry. The low-and-slow character of a heatpump is perfect for heating a well insulated home in mild climates, and can be compact (monoblock outside, flow/return from radiator to radiator), but I think it doesn't make sense for hot water production.

[@jonneymendoza]

I just installed a new gas boiler. I cant afford a air source heat pump as it requires me to first insulate all my external walls from the outside, get new doors and windows and add floor insulation . It’s just not viable for most people here in the UK.

[@Greguk444]

Yes, I was told this updated insulation is necessary to be done first to my 1940 house. The heat pump installation alone with grant was a quote for £6000, but it’s £2000 for a good new gas boiler swap. Maybe in a few years it will be affordable , but not at the moment.

[@stevepettifer4896]

@@Greguk444 One of Urban Plumber's recent videos was about an installation in a Victorian house with solid brick walls. I don't think they added wall insulation and it seemed to work perfectly well. I get the same comments whenever I discuss the idea of having a heat pump in my house (part 200 year old cob/stone, part 25 year old extensions with fairly paltry cavity insulation), but we already have a wet underfloor heating system driven by a 6kW electric flow boiler with flows temps of around 38-40C (already here when we bought it, and no options for anything other than electric owing to various logistical reasons I won't go into). The only difference with a heat pump would be I'd use less power for the same heating effect I have now, which is fine. Granted, I have improved the windows since they were utter junk, but I'd have done that no matter what. The bigger issue, at least for me and also for many others where a pump might work, is as someone else commented: The space required for the tank etc, and the running of pipes to it. I expect one day I will have a heat pump, but I am rather hoping that advances might make the space required less of an issue, but that's probably wishful thinking on my part.

[@Greguk444]

@@stevepettifer4896 Even if I ignored the insulation recommendation, I still have the cost issue. I have not had a quote under £6000, including the grant, most were more and most wanted me to replace my radiators which I am not convinced need replacing as they are double layer type 22. It seems inevitably that I will have to get a heat pump eventually but I don’t think I will do it now as it is so much cheaper to swap out my old combo heater for a new gas version. Also, I just cannot see where I could put the tank and control equipment in my small house. Thank you for your comments.

[@rich8037]

All this business about heat pumps 'requiring' external wall insulation is misleading. Just as with a gas boiler you can always install a higher-rated boiler to cope with heat loss, you can do the same with heat pumps: but you'll need a bigger installation, which will cost more and will almost certainly run at lower efficiency too, putting running costs up further. It's just the usual question of compromising on costs here versus costs there.

[@stevepettifer4896]

@@Greguk444 yes, true, it is the cost of the system installation that gets most people. I have seen complete heat pump kits (7kW with tank etc) for under £4k, but usually seems to be the labour costs in most cases that really pushes things up. For the moment, installing a heat pump when you are not doing a full refurb is something you have to want to do in the full knowledge that it's possible you will not really recover the costs. The running costs can be made to be on par or even sometimes less than a gas system, but the most people can't see past the capital cost, or of those who can, it's simply out of reach. I hope this will change in time, but for now I suppose we are where we are.

[@kevindesilva8030]

It all depends . We live in a rural area in a 1840's detached house that is not to big but has high ceilings . We have had 3 prices for air source heat pumps they range from £27 k to £32 k . before any insulation up grades . We have no spare internal space for the plant to go and the wall space available in most rooms do not have space for the upgraded radiators. All of the projected running costs are only just marginally below what we spend all ready and will likely be more as the tariffs they have used in the calculations are not available to use. The prices for replacing our 25 year old boiler are from £3.5k to £4.6 k . If you add on the the fact that the ASHP has to be paid up front and the government £5k is not available if your EPC is as lower as ours its just not worth bothering with . ASHP are an answer but the answer to the 1.4 million oil boilers .

[@jonh1808]

£32k. Unless your house is bigger than you’re letting on that’s just a scam. Mind you, so is £27k. £5-6k of that is just VAT! I’d be that fuming I wouldn’t need a heating system.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

zero vat on renewables tough. Some period properties will be expensive to install, expecially if high efficiency is required.

[@grolfe3210]

Agree with you on this. I have put in all the insulation I can (there was none in my loft in 2021!) and replaced an old gas boiler with new. With the much more efficient boiler (95% compared with about 70%) and insulation, I have got the consumption down to about half what it was.

[@kevindesilva4588]

@@jonh1808 he prices all include VAT . But did not include the 5 windows that would need to be double glazed and the extra roof insulation. All of the quotes said we needed the biggest available pump and we checked all the calculations using industry figures. The money was in the considerable work needed to the existing plumbing and building a place for the tank and plant to go . So I do not think we were scammed at all. High ceilings really throw the calculations out.

[@trashmail8]

That pipework and installation is a work of art. :)

[@UrbanPlumbers]

thank you :)

[@enemyofthestatewearein7945]

On a large renovation like this you are absolutely right, if it's cost neutral then HP is a no brainer. Gas is only going to get more expensive and there is a strong impetus on government now to bring down the cost of electricity. The bigger issue is the replacement market where a new gas boiler is often a distress purchase (after failure) which householders are therefore looking to do quickly at the minimum cost. Sorting out radiators and insulation then becomes something they don't want to think about even if it makes sense in the long run. IMO the government therefore needs to put a strong focus on making all homes 'heat pump ready' and unfortunately the incessant lobbying for hydrogen by the gas industry has made this very difficult.

[@larjoe68]

I am very impressed by such professional work, the plumbing, knowledge and experience. Well done.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

thank you for watching!

[@davejohnston5158]

Total install costs after grants may be still very high compared with a gas system. Maintenance and servicing costs also need to be compared as does the life expectancy of the main piece of kit. If a house is well ventilated and has heat recovery systems the actual heat input should be very little. In fact I remember an experimental house being constructed 45 years ago to a low budget. It had thick insulation, treble glazing and heat recovery. The only heat producing appliance was a gas fire in the living room which only needed to be switched on for a couple of hours a day!

[@edc1569]

Im not sure how you get comfort with a gas fire in one room.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

The target is passive heating (was planned for building regs before the govt pulled it...). Most houses have a total of around 4MWh/y of heating from electrical appliances (it all ends up as heat) and occupants. This CAN be enough to keep the house warm, with the appropriate insulation and air control as you mention. The complex water systems as shown in this video play no part in this- it is all about air management. Imagine the cost and complexity of keeping such legacy systems running...

[@davejohnston5158]

@@edc1569 Hi, it worked by the heat recovery system drawing it via ventilation to other parts of the house, then the heat is recovered and re-introduced with the fresh air coming in. The high insulation levels do the rest.

[@chunkymonkey55555]

Extreme insulation isn't necessarily a great idea anyway. A lot of these modern materials are made of many materials that might not be that great to your health to breath in all the time.

[@Tensquaremetreworkshop]

@@chunkymonkey55555 And why would the air you breathe pass anywhere near the house insulation? Passive heating (the ultimate goal) requires active control of air change. This involves (as a minimum) a heat exchanger between incoming and exhaust air. This controls the flow of air within the building, which is otherwise sealed. Moisture and dust control of this air is an obvious addition. None of this is part of the crude A2W2A system in this video. This will form part of the dated and expensive redundant systems we are so keen to install in this country.

[@wobby1516]

Totally agree, why install gas when as you rightly say the difference is so small and the feel good of doing something towards cutting emissions. As for running cost I suspect with those cops it’s cheaper to run and way more comfortable.. As a retired plumber / Heating installer may I say your workmanship is first class.

[@BigYouDog]

I live in a semi-detached 3 bed house that is on an estate that was built in the early 1930s. So, any quote that includes a complete CH replacement, redecoration, storage of furniture ect, and accommodation for the duration of the project, and can be achieved for £5000, we're in.

[@johndevlin980]

I’ve watched a lot of your videos and you do a brilliant job, however there are not enough installers yet and certainly not many who fully understand the installation. My two bed property was going to cost 25k for HP, rads, solar and battery, at my age it was a no brainer to install a new combi and some rads for 2K. Now only if I was 25 years younger 👍

[@Pav_1983]

Completely agree with you, my property is heat pump ready. But for some reason I'm still being quoted £5k for the install that is including £7.5k gov grant. £12.5k seem steep, especially as I don't need any new radiators, or pipework upgraded.

[@razvanlex]

@@Pav_1983 You are ripped off in UK and many western countries. I've installed a 6kW monoblock unit from Gree that was bought from Spain and shipped to Romania, where I live, with 2.600 EUR. No boiler was installed, DHW is still the job of the gas boiler. Last winter I've used only the heat pump for heating and the cost was 357EUR for the season (winters are harsher here then UK i think). With gas would have cost me 632 EUR. Using heating at 24°C inside from October until May for a 135 sqm house, but it's well insulated. This year I managed to install through a government grant a 7,3 kWp solar system with 4.000 EUR so obviously from now will be cheaper.

[@radfoo]

Looks great. I agree about the cost on a big complete renovation like that, no brainer. But for the average home when the boiler is end of life its a more complicated question. Also for someone like myself thats a geeky DIYer (i'm doing a full house renovation, so far prob 95% on my own) that wants to do most of it themselves the grant and the vat thing is not much help :-/. Interested in the cooling idea the customer is going for, be interested to see what that looks like if the customer will let you film it. Anyway, great video. Thanks.

[@edc1569]

Maybe you can find a friendly plumber who will order in the rads for you, they tend to get discounts anyway so you might both benefit

[@gsum1000]

If you're interested in cooling as well as heating, have you considered a heatpump AC system (HPAC)? Simple and cheap to install but weirdly, no grant available. Ours has a CoP of 5 and is so cheap to run as it is easy to direct the heat. We run the system on Octopus Go battery stored electricity@7.5p/kWh plus solar. We've retained our boiler for now to provide hot water for showers.

[@johnsmith-ik8il]

I'm prepaired to bet that this man has an extemely high IQ. I have never seen such proffesionalism in this field. His work looks so clean.

[@immers2410]

He’s definitely over qualified for a uk heat engineer. Maybe it’s different in other countries

[@edc1569]

@@immers2410he actually is an engineer, most UK plumbers can’t even be arsed to do any calcs they just chuck something on the wall and then charge you more money later to install the right size radiator.

[@hvacdesignsolutions]

It doesn't require a genius intellect to install a heat pump system. He's just a plumber, with pride in his work, and eye for detail.

[@immers2410]

@@hvacdesignsolutions there are a lot of variables involved in designing and implementing a system that runs at optimum efficiency

[@rogerphelps9939]

It is not rocket science. All you need is to measure all walls, windows etc, apply the correct U values and stick it into a standard app. As far as radiator upgrades are concerned it is usually a case of changing from single panel to double panel and increasing the number of convectors rather than any increase in wall area.@@edc1569

[@johnturrell942]

Now lets look at a normal 3 bed semi with an old boiler. These high end projects don’t reflect the majority UK housing stock.

[@edc1569]

he did a bungalow project, you seen that one?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

And a regular Victorian terrace as well, plus ex council one too. Check my other videos

[@jtrent90]

On our deep renovation the first thing I did was call the plumber to cap the gas, a month later the meter got removed. Easy for me then with a house full of dead pipework to rip out. Had our heat pump fitted last month partway through renovation, really appreciate all your insights watching your videos this past year.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you for your support!

[@philipharris5201]

Wait until January................

[@jtrent90]

@@philipharris5201 i know what I'm doing big man, appreciate the concern though, enjoy your boiler

[@richardfisher7248]

Im not a plumber but I haveworked on building sites, im prettysure that floor joists should not be notched to accomodate that pipework, will it not seriosly weaken the floor?

[@jpleics6152]

Nice installation and I'm sure it makes perfect sense for a contractors bank balance, however this is a renovation of a house that no ones in a rush to move into and if this is a builder who will sell the project on he will be looking for a return on investment. A couple of questions what was the total cost for supply and installation ?, what's the warranty period, why have you specified such a large installation when you will run the system around 40% capacity ?. Where are people expected to put a cylinder of that size when houses have been built for the last 20 years without emersion heater tanks. what savings against gas will be made ?........... think of the disruption to the average family household with no guarantees........ yeah makes perfect sense.

[@Bunyip_Studios]

your pipe layout is a work of art, great job as usual

[@mjrc123]

Any recommendations if you don’t have space for a “plant room”. Genuinely interested in one of these for our two-bed maisonette, but a combi boiler takes up no space at all, whereas it seems these need a lot more space (both inside and outside) for an equivalent system?

[@pumpkinhead456]

What space do you have? Do you have an airing cupboard? A loft?

[@mjrc123]

@@pumpkinhead456 There was formerly an airing cupboard that now has a washing machine and tumble dryer stacked where the old hot water cylinder used to stand. But it’s only just big enough for those two and has no external walls, so even if it wasn’t full, I’m not sure it would be suitable. The only other place is a coat cupboard on the 1st floor, but that’s even smaller. We’d also have to get permission to hang a unit on the outside wall (which is currently prohibited in our block). I’m just not sure these are a good alternative to a combi boiler in small flats / apartments (as much as I’d like them to be)…

[@TheSgtsMess]

That will be £30k please, how do you retro fit to a normal house with no space for a plant room.

[@twistandturn02]

Heat pump outside, cylinder inside. Not a huge space burden.

[@sniperpd9505]

Your pipework is a work of art. How easy will it be to maintain the system and will it need an annual service. Will fault finding be more difficult than in a gas combi boiler system?

[@syncrosimon]

Gas boilers are awesome, 50 years of usage is not wrong…….however I do like this installation, but it is a rich persons game.

[@ma40]

Another very impressive install. I’d love to see a follow up video to understand the real world efficiencies after the heating season.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I will definetly be done!

[@bastiat691]

You can also add solar and batteries to your house when you have a heat pump and run it on that energy instead of grid energy, can't do that with a gas boiler :)

[@jonneymendoza]

More added costs though. It is not cheap to add solar panels and batteries

[@ctid107]

Problem is in the UK, solar output is inverse of heating requirements

[@Cheradanine]

@@ctid107 Ally PV and batteries with a Time of Use electricity tariff and you have an absolute no-brainer. In winter charge the batteries with super cheap electricity and then run the house during the day from them. In summer, PV will charge the batteries, run the house and heat the DHW. I have 2 x BEVs, air-to-air HP that does cooling in summer and heating in winter in some rooms. I also have a legazcy gas boiler for some heating and DHW in winter. PV and batteries have halved my electricity costs and slashed my gas bill.

[@rich8037]

Why ever not? You could easily run a gas boiler from solar electric, it only take a hundred watts or so for hot water and similar on top for the pump when the heating is on.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Solar will not produce much energy during the winter. A heat pump has to be on for something like 18 hours a day in the depths of winter. It will use something like 50kwh per day. A battery will not be of much use in such conditions. I know because I have a ground source heat pump and solar panels.

[@davefish8107]

I have been told by some of my former colleagues that under 5% of the UK housing stock are suitable for ASHP . And half of that figure are new build houses

[@UrbanPlumbers]

4x times less efficient so cost 4 times more to run

[@BerlietGBC]

Yet again watching your work with properly designed and installed system the case for going with a heat pump gets stronger, very interesting indeed, I already have PV on the FiT but upgrading this system as well with the heat pump makes good sense

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you for watching!

[@kevinmills5293]

ASHPs are like EVs, they won’t suit everyone.

[@BerlietGBC]

@@UrbanPlumbers Never miss your presentations

[@BerlietGBC]

@@kevinmills5293 This is true but if you do your homework first and carefully for what you want to achieve or even if it’s positive for your application and select the right people to do the job then there is not really a problem

[@paullongley1221]

Great to watch your videos, very interesting with the details you share. Please keep it up 👍

[@Deadpool22677]

Great work and professional, but an install like that I’m guessing is about 10 - 20k. Well out of the price range for most people regardless of grant.

[@MaxMakerChannel]

Why do you use copper instead of maybe the Geberit Flowfit system?

[@NZherewecome]

Yes that chilled water will be %100 air conditioning. You will simply need an Air handling unit to transfer the rooms heat back to the water for it to return to your outdoor unit where it will run in cooling mode (reverse cycle) to reject the heat to outside via refrigeration cycle. Then the chilled water heads back upstairs. HEATPUMP = reverse cycle air conditioning normally. Just another true advantage of replacing the old boiler

[@MG-qo5ge]

Not true air conditioning as no control on humidity but why not take advantage of the four way valve, I've done this to my house and I had a problem with very low humidity

[@MichaelFlatman]

@@MG-qo5ge The fan coil unit if set to a low enough flow temperature should bring some humidity out of the air, although the floor temperature's must be kept in check otherwise there'd be condensation on the floor and it would become uncomfortable. I'm not sure if its possible to have 2 different flow temps like that.

[@MG-qo5ge]

This will depend on the due point. The chilled water temperature will have to be above that point to reduce the dehumidification effect and the under floor temperature has to be controlled possibly through the 0-10v proportional signal serving a 3 port valve This does bring in cost and complexity considerations and also if it goes wrong try to find someone outside the industrial fraternity ....good luck @@MichaelFlatman

[@scottweisel3640]

The upstairs AC loop to the ducted system will also provide dehumidification. What outdoor design temperatures do you use for the heat loss and heat gain load calculations?

[@sygad1]

I also agree that ROI is a useless way of looking at it. What is the ROI in having a nice garden double glazing, a new roof, these are simply investments made into your property for comfort, security and aesthetics.

[@Neo8019]

I usually don't seeing pipes or cables. I prefer to hide them away. But this pipe work needs to be on display. Very nicely done, very professional, great job. I do have one question. Ar around 8:15 of the video you have you left hand on the controls, right under that control I see some strange looking 4 way valve system. Can you please explain what that is and what its for? Is it some kind of automatic refill for the system?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

it is unvented cylinder combination valve

[@mrgilly100]

Very nice install. Like yourself, I really hate the “what is the payback” question.

[@springtown24]

Just one point. I recommend that you carry out an air test on your pipework before filling with water, I did this for years and it saved me a lot of time having to drain down and repair leaks. Air test, then water on.

[@LondonGas]

Another quality install (and video) as usual Szymon. Much as I'm loathed to admit it, I agree, gas is mad, ASHPs are the future - for many, if not most properties. Prices will reduce over time, & due to cutting-edge installers like yourself, effeciencies are getting better and better ready for when old-timers like me eventually break into the renrewables arena. Looks like I'll have to change my name, planned ahead & already own LondonASHP domain.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Thank you Gary. Hope all is well with you!

[@xxwookey]

Buying that domain was smart.

[@AdmV0rl0n]

I've not understood the heat pump method at all. I frankly still don't. But, that whole system looks expensive, I guess care of GOV 5k grant, I'm paying for a piece of it, and I look at the luxury of ploughing under floor heating and the space taken up with all the gear. Saving the planet just leads to insanity. That aside, I want to say great video. I did learn more about it than I have from other sources, and the info and detail was really good.

[@GlynHudson]

That's going to be such a high performing system! Top work as always 👏. What's the KW rating of the unit you fitted? It looks like a 5kW unit? You should do a follow up video to document the performance and how well cooling works. I think the option for cooling could be a great selling point for a ASHP. What made you go for a Vaillant cylinder? It looks like the Telford HP cylinders have a larger coil and slightly lower cost.

[@robertsmith9810]

After the oil crisis of the 1970`s in rural areas straw burner was the rage my cousin built wood framed house house installed the strawburner in the garage he had to abadon his house one night and call the fire brigade luckily thay saved his house but gave them all a scare

[@KavanOBrien]

Very impressive workmanship and women saw a young woman helping , sorry I digress, wow can’t think of anyone in my lifetime that I’ve been so impressed with , keep in mind that I was born that long ago rainbows was only in black and white, if you ever find yourself in Devon please pop in and give me a price no change that just come and do the job , very small house so would be your quickest install on record,

[@michaelhughes7706]

Great video but yet again, these heat pumps are only suitable in a new build situation where all of the insulation and pupework are built in to there latest standards Totally irrelevant to most of the existing housing stock in the UK unless major uplift is also included.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

not true, i have a number of videos on my channel showing installation of heat pumps in period, uninsulated hosues, that not only are cheaper to run than gas boilers, but also provide much better comfort.

[@michaelhughes7706]

@@UrbanPlumbers for example, my house has roof insulation and double glazing. I attempted to run the boiler flow temp at 55C. the result was the house didn't reach desired temp in any sensible time on a cold day. I have cavity brick construction. It would appear that for most of the existing housing stock, these low flow temps are useless unless a much larger investment is made in insulation, radiator sizes and in some cases, pipework.

[@jonh1808]

@@michaelhughes7706 radiators definitely, pipework only if it won’t support the required flow of water. Central heating is pumped so it isn’t so much if a problem, but the pipework still needs to be correct. Otherwise, get the rads sized properly and it’ll work fine.

[@michaelhughes7706]

@@jonh1808 yes but nuch larger radiators along with the insulation requirements is a significant budget uplift which for most of the UK housing stock would require. Comparing a simple heat pump installation with a gas boiler in anything other than a new build is usually nonsense.

[@robdegoyim4023]

@@UrbanPlumbershi yeah I’m gonna put 35 mil pipework all over your 60m2 terrace btw hope you have a yard and your kids don’t like playing outside cos that’s where the HP is going… PS you know that 1 cupboard you have? Cylinder cupboard now mate.

[@aidanmackin4183]

I’m looking for a career change and have considered trying to get into heat pump installation. Would you recommend retraining in heat pump installations and as someone with no experience in plumbing, where is the best place to start ? I was thinking of attending evening college courses to learn the basics of plumbing first. Thanks 👍

[@anthonys6976]

Hi Urban Plumbers, as always a really neat install and informative video. Please let us know what the installation cost is for this install, and also going forward the costing for your other installs please. I understand and agree we need to look forward regarding green energy measures to our homes ( which I have done with my existing 1950's property which is now EPC A) . Actually with no one in the property during the install ( luckily so when the tank is faulty and caused significant delay, which if you where installing in an existing property would be unacceptable for someone living in a property at the time) and with retrofit wall, floor and roof insulation it is possible to produce an energy efficient building. The problem comes with retrofit to existing housing stock in the UK, which is generally old and poorly insulated. The upgrade costs for a typical Victorian or Edwardian property are very high before the installation of an air source heat pump system. The typical install costs for an air heat source system including larger radiators etc is as per government figure £12K to £18K which is substantially more than a high efficiency boiler and Radiators. This figure plus any mitigation to the existing EPC value of a property make it very unlikely that those who could really do with benefiting the most would never be able to afford to install an air source heat pump.

[@aorange999]

We have a Dimplex air to water heat pump for underfloor heating and then we ran a line up to our top floor attic for a water to air fan coil. It provides perfect air conditioning in the summer and is honestly one of the best reasons to use air to water heat pumps. They do perfect radiant heating and very good cooling, there are also smaller convector radiators from Jaga that are installed like radiators and provide decent room by room cooling. A technician like yourself should look into this as more people request aircon in your market.

[@danhollins935]

Great video, thanks as always 👍 Fully agree with what you say regarding the installation of gas boilers especially on a project like this one.

[@Bish_OP]

Thoughts on air to air systems? I.e. multi split systems that do heating and cooling. Especially with the summer temperatures being how they’ve been these make more and more sense and are less effort to install and take up less internal space with no tank required, though don’t do hot water of course

[@Roedy_Coedy]

This is what I'm looking at doing. I wouldn't dare do it without solar though. With solar any excess can be used to temper the house temperature down. By my calculations (heat loss) I'll only need two exchanger units for the whole house given it's insulation. I can also scrap all the gas/radiator kit to get some money back and saving some space in the smaller rooms.

[@Bish_OP]

@@Roedy_Coedywe had one installed last week; a 6Kw outdoor unit and 3* 2Kw indoor units. I am really interested to compare it to the boilers efficiency in winter. We have done it without solar because of working from home we wanted it in for cooling in summer. Also our property is listed so we had to help design a solution that would minimise outdoor piping. The one issue with these systems is the installers want each indoor unit to be fed up external walls so that the condensate can be gravity fed (esp as pumps on the indoor units are loud). We managed to come up with a way to have 1 run of pipes into the house and not have condensate pumps on each unit!

[@Roedy_Coedy]

@@Bish_OP ohhh that's interesting! If it's listed they may block solar through planning anyway. In which case you may be able to get a battery to charge up during cheaper periods overnight, worth considering!

[@edc1569]

If you’re treating your home apart you have one opportunity to put an underfloor system in, in my eyes it’s much preferable to air-to-air

[@Bish_OP]

@@edc1569 in terms of efficiency that makes sense but it won't cool which to us was a big deal. The air to air still claim quite a high efficiency which could still be cheaper than running a boiler even with the 3:1 price in gas' favour

[@lewisjones5067]

With Solar Pv panels yes its a no brainer, without them.... electricity is 3x the cost of gas. I have anecdotal stories of high running costs I'm sure you'd disagree with but my point is the argument is a lot closer call. We need cheaper more efficient panels, more installers and cheaper electricty. The future has started but its not quite there yet. Same with electric cars and vans

[@UrbanPlumbers]

this system will run at scops of 4.5 or higher though, so even without PV it will still be much cheaper to run than gas.

[@lewisjones5067]

Whats the installation cost for one house all in? The builders I work for are very concerned about the costs. They fight me on pipe sizing all the time. The scops impressive and I'm moving away from working for builders full stop.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yeah, builders are a nightmare in this country

[@jonneymendoza]

It’s not just solar panels you need. First gotta look at your properties insulation. Does it have cavity walls? 150mm insulation on the roof? 100mm insulation underneath your floorboards? Double glazing windows? Sufficient sized radiators? A place to store he hot water cylinder?😊

[@jonh1808]

There are no shortage of forums/blogs with people discussing the relative merits of their own heat pumps, from a real world cost point of view. It’s never more than a 50/50 split between people who are happy and people who wish they’d never touched them, running costs being the single biggest problem. Some will have been poorly installed, and some incorrectly sized, but equally, a lot of people who were reasonably happy were off grid and dependent on oil/LPG with all the messing around and extra cost involved.

[@jamesball3899]

Thanks for the video, we are about to do a renovation of a similar size and want a heat pump installed but am trying to work out where we would put it. How much space would I need on the side of my house. I would like it to go next to our garage without disturbing the neighbours!

[@mattsan70]

There is ONE huge issue that is overlooked when talking about all this ASHP stuff. That is, electricity supply. We were threatened with rolling blackouts last winter which would mean a cold house if you did everything with electricity. Having a gas boiler gives you a backup option (called diversification redundancy in tech speak). So for that reason alone I wont ditch my gas boiler or cooker any time soon. Niec to have options.

[@trashmail8]

I'm not sure about your gas boiler, but mine won't work if there's no electricity.. Same point with EVs, where people say: but I can still get gasoline if the power grid goes down! Nope, because the pumps and payment systems won't function..

[@mattsan70]

@@trashmail8 get a small ups or generator - a boiler only uses like 60w running

[@ianashton1593]

@@mattsan70That’s what I’ve done 👍

[@BenIsInSweden]

Even if the power was out for 3 hours most houses aren't going to lose enough heat to be a problem. And with those, it makes the fabric upgrades all the more worthwhile doing to keep the existing heat in. UPSes are designed for keeping things running for a short period of time to enable someone to turn them off if power isn't due back on within the timeframe needed, not for sustained use.

[@ianashton1593]

@@BenIsInSweden That’s very true, I’d only need to use it in exceptional circumstances anyway as my home is well insulated and stays warm for a long time after the heating goes off. The main reason I purchased my power bank is so I can have light and other essentials if/when we have power cuts during winter which were predicted. Also use it when I go camping in remote places so it was bought for multiple purposes.

[@Autonomegast]

im doing a renovation for myself and i wanted a heatpump for heating and a gasboiler for water. But i dont have the budget so now i will install a combi boiler and if i have the budget i will install a heatpump. I prefer a gasboiler for hot water bcs the high deltaT and no heat loss if u dont work with a cilinder. Als if the heatpump if broken, i have my gasboiler in reserve.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

have a look at new Intergas hybrid set up. It looks very good and is not that expensive!

[@paulsmith2931]

Let me see, 2-3k for a gas boiler replacement, or 20k for a heat pump, for the vast majority it’s still a no brainier.

[@mihaiachim5299]

@ 11:23 on Gas boiler in many cases you dont need high end weather compensated to stay efficient and I think you know that :) if by high end you mean viessmann vitocrossal + accessories, then a heat pump will cost much less even without subsidies :D + I don't think that heat pumps are the high-end solution for heating and cooling, but rather vrf/vrv systems - which are definitely more efficient than a heat pump for heating and cooling - technically (as an extreme but real example) you could use a system of its kind, including cooling your refrigerator and using the little heat extracted from it for heating or preparing hot water in the summer ... things that a classic heat pump is not capable of ... and it is about the only field in which really suits me the use of heat pump systems for the generation and management of the thermal needs of homes and commercial spaces…

[@edc1569]

I doubt tying to recover heat from a modern domestic refrigerator is ever going to make sense. VRF VRV might make sense in a location where you need chilling as much as heating but using water to move heat around is pretty effective, it’s free, it’s non toxic, it has huge heat capacity, it’s all around an excellent median. Just make sure it doesn’t freeze.

[@mihaiachim5299]

@@edc1569 with a vrv/vrf you could partially heat a swimming pool with heat extracted from the house in the summer + you could heat hot water instead of throwing the heat extracted from the house into the air. What you said is correct - that's why vrv/vrf systems are used in commercial areas such as grocery stores. And knowing what such a system is capable of makes me want it in homes as well, only that it is extremely expensive to implement...

[@louisdisbury9759]

Total Bollox I've been installing gas boilers for 40 years and they have never been so reliable and Efficient and gas at the moment is half the price of electricity,a modern gas boiler will heat your home and hot water far more efficiently than a heat pump and having worked on heat pumps on repairs both expensive to repair and loads of complaints from customers on efficiency,heat output and very expensive to run.

[@Etacovda63]

“More efficient” “gas is half the price of electricity” - you have zero idea what you’re talking about, lmao. You literally proved that gas is worse, a decent heat pump is 4x more efficient than a gas boiler so if gas was half the price it would be 2x the running cost, hahahaha

[@jonh1808]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@Etacovda63doesn’t matter what imagined efficiencies are when electricity is so much more expensive. I have refitted my CH and sized everything for low flow temperature, I can run the boiler hot for a short while to warm the place up then let it run at low temperature after that. Very very efficient. You’re ASHP will never compete, if for no other reason than the exorbitant cost of installing them wipes out your mythical savings. And as I’ve posted elsewhere on here, Mitsubishi charge a minimum of £36pm to cover their heat pumps, and nothing else, which suggests they aren’t expecting them to be cheap to maintain either. You’re welcome to them.

[@edc1569]

I mean if gas did cost half the price of electricity it would be a no brainer for the heat pump.

[@MagicianMan]

Your correct that no one thinks about ROI on a boiler but then your looking at £2-£3k. An ASHP installation like you just did must run to £12-£18k excluding underfloor heating I would estimate. Even if you deduct the £5k BUS that's a shit tonne of money so it's only reasonable to consider ROI in that situation. I mean I could have bought a decent 2nd hand electric car for that and saved myself more money overall and helped the environment just as much.

[@edc1569]

Octopus quoted me £6k for an install onto my 3 bed semi, with the discount.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

comparable weahter compensated boiler with unvetned is around the same cost once vat and grant are taken into the account

[@David.0.0.7]

Yes here we have a typical normal home as usual funking unbelievable.

[@rich8037]

Lovely job and you make a lot of good points in this video. But while it's a straightfoward job to install the system in a house that is practically stripped to the bricks for a renovation, it would be a right head-scratcher if someone didn't want to do that. Thinking about my own place (mid-size semi) frankly I would pretty much expect to move out for a month and put all the furniture in storage for the period, which would add a fair bit to costs. Still, I might one day just have to bite the bullet and do that, I guess.

[@tonydaddario4706]

Depends on how well insulated your house is and whether you also want UFH. You could just require a pipe and radiator upgrade, if that.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

that is what we do. Clear parts of properties so we can upgrade rads and some pipework and some people move out for around 2-3 days.

[@the1beard]

wait for electricity prices to jump 400% ... soon .... the idiocy of government ideas is never ending .. diesel cars ... etc DO the opposite of what government advises every time is my advice ... 👍

[@BenIsInSweden]

And Gas will stay the same? An increase in electricity prices will just drive more solar PV and batteries being installed because it will make it an even more worthwhile investment.

[@zteaxon7787]

​@@BenIsInSwedenYou don't understand. They are CRIPPLING the grid with changing to electric everywhere. In Belgiums they already officially announce possibility of blackouts. In case of a bad winter the power WILL go out. On purpose. Because they sold and decomissioned, disinvested, phased out the nuclear plants. And try to create new gas power plants to make up for it. You don't want to have a bad winter and rely on a heat pump that can't get a decent COP to then have the power go out completely. If I had a heat pump I would have a wood stove just to make sure. Then it's ok I guess. I think having wood fuel stove backup is essential regardless.

[@the1beard]

@@BenIsInSweden yes gas will probably get relatively cheaper Shale gas coming soon

[@BenIsInSweden]

​@@the1beard You mean Fracking that Liz Truss lifted the moratorium on in her short term and that Rishi swiftly recommitted to it? I'll file that under the same folder as Hydrogen for heating homes. The problem is even if electricity does jump by 400%, gas would need to rise by 100% or less in the same period to maintain how things stand today with regard to HP vs Boiler running costs. I don't see that happening.

[@johnf3326]

So true! But we eill get shafted any ways!

[@meineszmf]

always a pleasure to see the level of craftsmanship, nice one again.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

thank you!

[@Chris-hy6jy]

I see you've installed quite a lot of these Valiant systems over the last year or so. It will be interesting to see how reliable they are and with that in mind, please make videos covering any significant faults you get over the coming years... If there are any.

[@Chris-hy6jy]

Vaillant I mean 😂

[@UrbanPlumbers]

within our group of heat geeks and Vito Energy (compnay that does the umbrella sheme) - we have installed propably around 200 units in the last 12 months, so we have a pretty representative sample of Vaillant units now. I will report on any issues. So far I have had issues with 3 Vaillant cylidners but none with heat pumps.

[@Chris-hy6jy]

@@UrbanPlumbers excellent, thanks 👍

[@nathanielescudero5379]

Amazing to see a real knowledgeable trades person. In Algave in Portugal they don't seem to exist. Let me know if you want a working holiday. 😂

[@ollyb7570]

Have you ever fitted a heat pump system on a typical Victorian terrace house with single brick walls and suspended ventilated timber floors? Do heat pumps still work well (heat sufficiently/ remain cheaper than gas) in these old buildings during cold winters? Considering getting one but haven’t found reliable info on old houses… oldest I’ve seen are 1930s semi-detached houses with double leaf walls with blown insulation, space for a large water tank (often missing from old houses predating modern heating or where combi boilers have been used for years), and plenty of garden space to site one.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Yes I have. Check my other videos

[@kkqd0784]

@6:30 would be great to see how you did all this pipe work and thought process

[@ladeanbartlett2530]

@urbanplumbers can I have air con alongside the air pump? Thanks

[@reneharkamp4309]

Plumber United ! Amsterdam, calling... Fantastic Job, well done

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Many thanks!

[@StuartTaylorEsquire]

@urbanplumbers i'd love to switch from the Valiant 937 ecotec to a heat pump, but my 20 year old house has nowhere to install an unvented cylinder, nowhere to site heat pump, is piped in 15mm flow and return with 10mm drops to under sized radiators. I've had three companies come and survey and price. Two wouldn't touch it, and one said £28k, so if gas comes to an end, this house will be getting electric storage heaters.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

yes, you can use direct electric, but in a long run it makes more sense to actually spend 28K, as electric storage heaters will cost around £8K a year to run in an everage UK home. If you cannot afford a heat pump, then you surely will not be able to afford storage heaters, unless on a cheaper tarrif. Heat pumps are unlikely to reduce in price when it comes to installation ot supply. We need more training and better engineers and better incentive to attract better quality of people to the industry. What we need is better financing for this tech with lower bills savings to pay for the loan.

[@kevinmills5293]

My brother has a small 3rd story flat. We pulled out an old boiler, DHW tank and header tank and fitted a combi boiler. The change freed up a lot of space in the bathroom where the DHW tank was located. If gas boilers are banned, an ASHP would not be a viable option. There would be no space for all the gubbins needed and with the ASHP mounted outside, the cost of servicing it would be astronomical as scaffolding would have to be erected to reach it.

[@StuartTaylorEsquire]

@@UrbanPlumbers but this isn't a job site. This is my home. It's £28k for the plumbing but that doesn't include reinstatement of the flooring that would need to be ripped up to get to the floor boards, and the reality that we would need to be out of the house for several days (including pets) while the work is taking place. I know your clients have big properties and bigger pockets, but for your average working man, financially it's a stretch and it's a massive inconvenience for a small reduction in heating costs (on a well insulated home with weather compensation) for what? It doesn't increase the value of the property and if electricity prices increase (which they will, because we can't produce enough of the stuff), then an additional+£20k in solar PV and battery is needed? I'm not saying burning gas is right, but we need a less disruptive alternative, that doesn't lock us in to a single energy source (electricity).

[@edc1569]

​@@StuartTaylorEsquire do you think there are electricity mines? electricity wells? Electricity is energy source agnostic like no other fuel. We used to heat our homes with open fires, a guy would deliver us coal. Central heating was an unbelievable expensive luxury with so much disruption to install, but in a decade or so burning coal became the luxury.

[@Jaw0lf]

I am not atrades person but a lover of our planet and being able to breathe clean air, not have a house that could explode as a gas leak had occurred. ASHP is a winner and certainly kept my house toasty warm last winter. I had equivalent of little or no cavity insulation at the time and used 3333kWh to heat the whole home all day. Updated the insulation and a couple of weeks inciated saving 30% of electric use. So 2000kWh or so is estimated for next winter. They work well and I agree all new homes should automatically fit ASHP for heat and solar panels on roof.

[@MrGraeme]

When you're doing s straight swap from and end of life stand point with a central heating system with much too narrow pipework. It still makes sense to install a gas combi boiler. I was £1600 vs £10k to £14k for a heat pump. Even with any savings in energy cost it would take 10 years plus to break even.

[@rogerphelps9939]

My house has microbore central heating pipework (8mm and 10mm). Some of it has been upgraded to 15mm but it all works fine with my ground source heat pump.

[@johnf3326]

Government says it will happen, without addressing any of the practicalities, costs or available equipment and installers. And its still 1 kw electric in for 3kw out!

[@primarypro1627]

another great VIDEO Keeping external pipework as short as possible is a great design; as you can see from your video, insulate with quality insulation that is VU protected and weather protected and seal all the joints/seal to the heat pump so as not to let any heat/energy out and not let water/moisture in that if it did get in would increase the thermal conductivity so reducing the insulation, heat pump, system efficiency. Sealing through the wall, as you show, is also very important to stop moisture from bridging the cavity and stop all other critters getting in 👍

[@bunnywarren]

With the Vallient heatpumps I couldn't see any information about how efficient they are during the winter months, when I'm doing most of my heating. Even though the gas boiler is much less efficient per kilowatt, the price different between gas and electric seems to remove any significant benefit from heatpumps. This is on top of their substantial costs when retrofitting. Doing a complete refurb of a larger house does change the sums though.

[@BriaCroTex]

So i have similar plan to do in my new house now since i still didn't do any consultation with Vaillant i was wondering how the system will work with solar panels, so heat pump, solar panels i was thinking to put massive buffer tank probably 1000L one twin coil and everything feed from that, since we have plenty of sun here where i live but very cold winters - 15c

[@timjackson1904]

It struck me that in a city environment, the air available for drawing the heat out of would effectively be that of your own back yard. In those cold still winter mornings, the cold exhaust air will fill up this backyard area until the units dont work! Most city housing is quite cramped with lets say a 250M sq garden (figure taken from Cambridge estimate which is one of the better cities), thats 250Mcubed of air before your unit is totally immersed in cold exhaust. ie, if everyone has one in cities, theyre not going to work on those still/frosty mornings. Doubtful of this, well look at it another way. Cities are 10-15C warmer than their surrounding countryside due to heat leaking from homes. If they go over to heat pumps, this will mean they will be 10-15C colder than current and then add in all that cold exhaust air from heat pumps. My conclusion is that for expensive new builds in the more country areas, they would be good. But for most people in older houses, itl be too large an investment with the cost of ripping up floors etc.

[@audrunasgruslys9243]

So just lift the heat pump up and the problem solved!

[@tlangdon12]

Don't forget that the house has thermal mass and the air has to get really cold (like -15C) to not be able to get useful heat out of it.

[@garethdesborough7960]

Great video and unassailable logic for a new build or complete renovation IF the building is well insulated. Domestic boilers are responsible for more CO2 emissions in the UK than our passenger cars reputedly, yet this is yet to be widely known or discussed. The government will need to push much harder on ASHP support and publicity because guess what; hydrogen is NOT the answer!

[@jonjo6886]

Here's where heat pumps are set to be a major fail. My 16kw is happy in the 35° c bracket, I agree with proper insulation and underfloor it is well possible. Now, when I ask for 50°c hot water, on economic, its drawing over 6kw and gets to 47.5°c. Seeing that electricity is 4 times the price of gas it is hopeless at CoP 2.5. What's going to happen is; we're going to be offered very cheap electricity when there is a glut from wind and solar. I have a 4,000 litre buffer with this in mind, in reality I could do with another 4,000 litres. Heat pumps just grind away 24/7 irrespective of the Grid, no use at all for Grid balancing! Available phase change heat stores need sort of 65°c to operate so they are out the picture. You might as well use an immersion heater to make use of pcm's. When I first had my 16kw ashp I pressed the " instantaneous power function " and it showed something like 9.4 kw and it made me wet my knickers, I contacted the manufacturer and to be fair they advised me to stick to "economic" but 6.4 kw is still a hefty chunk at nearly £2.00 an hour. The next major problem I faced was the warranty, for the sake of efficiency I was running pure water. According to the manufacturer, to avail of the warranty it is necessary to use glycol. The next blow was the £300/ year maintenance charge they wanted to drop on me to get to 7 years cover, that's a quarter of a gas bill. Even then they'll do their utmost to wriggle out. So the plan is the boiler I removed is being serviced and will go back in to service to be used as a sort of hybrid system for when the cold winds strike or the ashp breaks down, which it will no doubt. And before anyone mentions it, I was not able to claim BUS and on reflection I'm glad I didn't.

[@BenIsInSweden]

Heat pumps are like cars, will use more energy during the startup phase. You aren't going to have it using 9.4kW/6.4kW per hour constantly, and once it reaches "maintaining the temperature", you will find it's using a lot less.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Poor design. My GSHP produces plenty of very hot water and the SCOP is over 3.5.

[@rogerphelps9939]

Should have installed a GSHP.

[@callumvaughan5947]

I put Flexi hoses through the wall all the time, it looks neat, well insulated and it's less fittings, win win if you ask me

[@UrbanPlumbers]

good to know I am not the only one. As long as connections are accessible I do not see a problem myself.

[@callumvaughan5947]

@@UrbanPlumbers 100%, if you're ever unfortunate enough to install a lg heatpump, they often come with 750mm long hoses, absolute nightmare to deal with!

[@David-bl1bt]

Yes, I agree with flexi connections. They help reduce the transmission of any vibration noise into the property pipework.

[@markusass]

That's taking complexity to the next level.

[@natodemon1]

Always great to see one of your videos, especially a heat pump one! Given sufficient space to create a proper installation, there really is no reason at all to install a brand new gas boiler in new or heavily refurbished properties, it really is a shame to see it continue to be done. Even if the running costs are comparable right now, they will without a doubt decrease in the future. With so much misinformation currently circulating, do you find you have to suggest a heat pump yourself to customers and correct some of their misunderstandings or do potential clients come to you specifically requesting them?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I have to fight ignorant builders and plumbers all the time! The amount of misinfomration coming from our trade is just frightening. That is why I HAVE TO keep posting those videos to fight it. Customers that come to me are less of a problem, as they are usually well educated in heat pumps already.

[@natodemon1]

@@UrbanPlumbers It really is a shame to hear, especially that the misinformation is also coming from within the industry and not just the general uninformed media. You're doing a great service to the industry for sure, your videos are fantastic!

[@Joe-s2y4m]

@@UrbanPlumbers Shame you don't work in my area i am working at the moment as would be great to have you do an install in Nw2. Probably going to have to go with a new gas boiler instead.

[@Saaj2]

Thanks for making these videos and debunking all the myths that the media seems to be peddling.

[@Candisa]

You can't compare two technologies without checking if there is an ROI to go with the more expensive option. The problem is you can't predict gas and electricity prices 10-20 years into the future. Where I live electricity is slightly coming down while gas is going up. I took the gamble of getting a brand new gas boiler last year because gas was about a seventh of the price of electricity at that point, making a heatpump almost twice as expensive to run. Now it's somewhere between a quarter and a fifth, so running a heatpump is still more expensive but not by much anymore. If this trend continues and prices of heatpump vs gas boiler installations close up, it wouldn't make sense to run gas when doing a new installation, and in a few years it's absolutely possible I took the wrong gamble but that would still mean I would have to do an ROI calculation first to decide if it's worth replacing my gas boiler before it's written off or to go hybrid or just leave everything as is for a few more years. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for renewable energy and I think the future is electric because of that, but the infrastructure isn't there yet to allow everybody to do the switch today, investments will be needed and those investments will have to come from the profit margins of the power companies. The question is where they'll get that profit from, will they keep inflating the price of both electricity and gas, slowing down the transition, or will they tack it onto the price of gas which is only sustainable as long as many people still use gas? I think the best investment right now is insulation and heat-recovery ventilation, so no matter what you use to heat, you use as little as possible of it.

[@jonh1808]

Last winter we were threatened with rolling blackouts, such that they had to put our last few coal fired power stations on standby. Rolls Royce have been banging on about modular power stations for as long as I can remember, but as yet, no planning permission has been given for a single unit. I can only presume there’s a reason for that. Hinckley Point isn’t exactly proven technology. The modular ones are based on naval power plants, and whilst there isn’t much info in the public realm for obvious reasons, there’s enough to know they’ve not been problem free. The UK is miles away from having enough electrical capacity for us all to buy ASHP’s and EV’s. Just try getting planning permission for new houses and getting the electrical supply pulled in. Ridiculous backlog and lack of capacity. If they started dishing out planning permission for RR plants today, it’d be a minimum 15 years before they came online. You did the right thing. By the time they’ve built all this capacity, electricity could cost a fortune.

[@Candisa]

@@jonh1808 I live in Belgium, but it is no different over here. They extended two nuclear reactors for another 10 years because they realised it will take too long for renewables to catch up and relying on gas only to fill the gap isn't such a good idea in the current market. Not only the production is an issue, the grid simply can't handle the larger peaks. We now have "peak tariff" here: our energy bill isn't only calculated based on how much electricity we use, but also based on the average monthly peak consumption measured by the smartmeter... Now imagine having no battery, coming home from work, plugging in the EV, turning up the heat pump, and firing up the electric oven and/or induction hob. Yeah... I'm gonna sit this one out for a few more years, my current LPG/petrol car should last me a few more years, my new Vaillant gas boiler should last at least 10-15 years, and I'm perfectly happy cooking on gas. The next car will probably be electric, the next 'boiler' probably an ASHP unless drilling for a ground source hp becomes a lot cheaper, but I'm in no hurry, I don't need to be a pioneer, my energy consumption is low enough as it is and will only become less the more I invest in insulation and heat recovery.

[@rogerphelps9939]

In future gas prices will be increased to encourage tha adoption of heat pumps. It is a very sensible move because even if the electricity is generated using gas you will be getting twice as much heat from a heat pump for a given amount of gas as burning that gas directly.

[@Candisa]

@@rogerphelps9939 I agree, that's why I keep an eye on energy prices and as soon as electricity drops below 3x gas I'll check what I would save vs what I'd have to spend to go hybrid heating. I already run low flow temp and adding an ASHP is just a matter of running flow+return+power straight through the wall where my combiboiler is installed, so it would be an easy change.

[@briktujosh]

Can the heat pump be installed in a 1st floor flat that has a boiler cupboard large enough for a tank? Can the external unit be suspended by bracket on wall?

[@Paxanto91]

what's the brand of the flexible hoses?

[@davidp4456]

Heat pumps will work well as in this example if you are rich, undertaking a renovation with new heating, and have plenty of room. For many they will not be possible because of small size of UK houses and insufficient space for a plant room. Particularly so in flats where there is only enough room for a combi boiler and no possibility of an external heat exchanger. The only alternative in these situations is a community heat pump solution with an industrial sized unit at the end of the street or at the base of a tower block. I am not aware of anyone mentioning community solutions or the investment that would be required for such infrastructure. Is heat pump technology on this scale even available?

[@BenIsInSweden]

Yup, (probably) mostly with ground source instead, take a look into "Shared Ground Loop". Which eliminates the need for individual outdoor units.

[@DGT73]

Just curious about anti freeze valves without glycol. If the anti freeze valves open they won’t empty the heat exchanger completely, there’s still a risk it could burst.

[@angiej4865]

I enjoy your videos. Would really like to install ASHP plus solar panels in the renovation property I am buying. Did your client dig out the concrete floor in the existing part of the house for the UFH?

[@richarddicktaylor219]

Thanks you for another highly informative video. What would be interesting is to see what sort of solution might be possible for 1) a small flat where there isn't room for this type of system i.e. what are the practical alternatives as electric boilers are very expensive to run 2) could you put in a small system externally (inc. cylinder) for a small retrofit where there is currently an electric shower, a small electric system for 2x sinks & electric heaters along with a wood burner? I think it is these sorts of problematic systems that no one is talking about and they probably make up 60%+ of current housing stock. Our London flat is one of almost 400 in 5 buildings which are listed and can't have (so far) double glazing or heatpumps.

[@1414141x]

Most of Britains housing stock will not be suitable for ground or air source installations. Many reasons for this. The Government will have to back track on the ban on gas boiler installations because heating houses with electrictiy (those that are not suitable for renewable) will be too costly.

[@myatix1]

Can you please share how you do mass flow rate calculations for an underfloor heating install to calculate pipe size? Thanks for sharing!

[@johntisbury]

Here here on your return on investment rant! Great install and love the details. Thanks.

[@pete_pump]

I love your videos and learn so much from them, thank you so much for all your work on them. A couple of things: have you considered the ‘Vaillant Mono HP connect kit straight pipe’ kit, consisting of a pair of stainless steel corrugated pipes, which can go straight through the wall and which I used successfully on a recent job. I’d like to have one longer and one shorter one to accommodate the antifreeze valve, but that a refinement. Also.. for the isolator I have started taking the tail leading to the heat pump back through the wall and then down internally if possibly and then out at a point close to the pipes which keeps it neater and all cables invisible. Looking forward to learning why the flow rate was so low on your rescue job!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I use regular angled flexi hoses and cut them to size required and straighten the ends to make them straight if needed

[@pete_pump]

Sounds interesting but I don’t understand how you do that. I’ve tried chopping flexihoses down but don’t know how to terminate them after I have done so. Possibly something for a video of tricks of the trade some time? Thanks for the reply.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Video about it coming soon

[@rogerfroud300]

Wow, that's a crazy amount of plumbing. How do you get the domestic water hot enough? That needs to be way higher than the central heating temperature.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

It is. DHW can get to 70c if needed. Normally 50c is enough

[@martinvaci7166]

Yeah flexible connections, Yeah there is good reason why they use flexible connections. Perhaps compensate for termal expantions but predominantly dumpen the vibrations, then you dont have a noise conduction from heat pump. Also the distance of flow pipes 20cm to 50 cm would not have any thermal lost considering the velocity ( flow volume ) and pipe diameter. Excelent videos keep them comming its really good and educational.

[@ram64man]

I’m still in the gas lpg and diesel boiler over heat pump for off grid , my experience has been really bad with heat pump, I had better heat than underfloor, which in - 30c felt bitter (buffalo last Christmas) but irs exactly this reason I say gas and diesel whether it be biodiesel or in time synthetic, when the powers out people freeze, we had 7 days of negative 20c with no electricity , we were cut off for 10 days due to the sheer volume of snow , if it wasn’t for the fire place I would have been in a bad way, 8 people got taken to hospital in our street due to no electricity and a heat pump refit sadly one elderly woman passed away , in the U.K. we only have to go back to storm Erwin to see similar situation, no heat , and cut off it doesn’t matter if your 18 or 80 freezing cold can kill, the politicians and policy makers forget this, many have never been in such conditions before, let alone had the power off for longer than a day, all it takes off the main pipe is for one bad storm and the grid goes off, this is why I’m advocating that gas and diesel be allowed to continue especially rural Scotland especially with property’s with greater than 15kw energy loss , the cost off keeping the heat going through backup would make it far far more expensive ac it’s not hard to chew through 45kwh a day in sub zero temperatures this is why I say especially for heat pumps Designing for just -2 is wrong and should be for a least -6, which is typical in rural conditions

[@samposton9101]

Lovely install mate

[@stephenpeat3885]

My colleague friend had a heat pump he had a hot water tank but the hotwater tank the hotwater never reached more than 52 degrees. She kept the heatpump but add a small gas boiler for the hotwater to reach 65 degrees. The heatpump will be good for radiators but not for household hotwater.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

sounds like it was never installed correctly. This unit can bring the DHW to 70c.

[@96Lauriz]

bad product, bad install or defective product. Also why heat hotwater to 65 degrees? Above 60 degrees, excessive limescale built up is going on, so the lifetime will be shortened alot running at such a high temperature. 55-60 tank temperature should be max, and with weekly legionella thermal shock you can go down lower and sit around 50C to maximize COP and minimise heat loss of tthe tank.

[@rogerphelps9939]

We have a GSHP and get piping hot water always.

[@rosssporle9802]

i personally would of gone down the air to air heat pump and fitted a ducted system. Then fitted the daikin heat pump cylinder. that makes more sense as the client clearly wants to be able to cool the house as well.

[@michaelh5722]

I’d be curious to know the efficiency of these heat pumps at 75c flow temps? I think the Vaillant is one of the few to do flow temps that high.

[@edc1569]

Awful. I’m sure it’s in the data sheet.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

close to 1 I am afraid.

[@kevinmatthews3999]

Looks amazing! Love your content. What size HP for this project?

[@UrbanPlumbers]

7kw

[@mgbroadsterJ]

Is it alot more expensive to use that matting . Have you done the calls and do you fit close coupled tees .at the manifold .

[@UrbanPlumbers]

Why would you fit CCT on a heat pump???!!

[@brianwood5220]

Thanks for the upload. Great video. Looking forward to your next one.

[@timhancock6626]

How many combis got replaced because a heating engineer couldn't be bothered or didn't know how to fix a simple fault ? Loads. Now imagine whats going to happen when the heat pump develops a fault.."oh you need a new heat pump mate". Nobody is going to want to spend the time to learn how to diagnose faults on these systems. A manufacturers engineer will check the heat pump, but won't touch the rest of the system. I have a six year old gas boiler and its not going anywhere quickly until the heat pump market has matured and is orderly. I still don't think a heat pump will keep my old house warm at anything like comparable cost. The next owner of this house can take all that on as insulating this 1885 property is a real headache. We've done the roof space, we've double glazed and we have insulated underfloor where we can get there. The walls are solid, so it will mean dry lining the whole house, or there is one gable wall we could exterior clad. The one thing I might be OK with is oversized radiators as mine are pretty big, but I need to get a calculator out and do a heat loss/heat output calculation to get a real idea of the requirement. I need to win the lottery and then have a borehole dug, in that order unfortunately.

[@mcscotty1625]

The challenge will be the winter operation. I live 5 mins from a London tube station in Bucks, yet I am getting temps down to -10 deg C. Last year we had -16 C one night. I assume the heat store will be using electric boost heaters.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

No electric boost heaters are needed on modern heat pumps and this one doesn’t have it

[@rogerphelps9939]

Use a ground source heat pump.