USPSA is back at it

[@zachnugent1236]

I bought a couple of your books and I'm learning a ton. I really appreciate your work and teachings!

[@schneir5]

I started doing Limited division last year in USPSA and Steel Challenge after I bought my base model CZ TS2. I wish I would have gotten the racing green version now, but at the time it wasn't for sale here yet.

[@clintsantos]

Here in the Philippines we have two organizations. One is PPSA and the other one is PSMOC. PPSA is associated with IPSC. PSMOC has its own set of rules which is similar to USPSA.

[@corbinpeterson6252]

I’m in full support of a new organization. I think the fundamental ideas you mentioned are good and logical, and I think it would work. May take time to build and expand, but you clearly make that a point in your video. It will definitely be the underground version of Uspsa for a bit, and if it does work even as “good” as USPSA without the political BS that’s been on the next level the last 2-3 years then I think it will naturally win typical competitors over. Build a common sense organization, those with common sense will come.

[@wmetzler01]

Great idea Ben and would love to see it go forward and would put money and time into it. USPSA has very little protectable intellectual property and it can easily be copied.

[@rjrodriguez315]

I like the idea! Likely will have to be very organic in the beginning to build following which I would be willing to help with locally.

[@mckennaConfig]

Ben, my section in Colorado is seriously considering doing exactly what you are talking about. The biggest question marks come down to lawsuit concerns and creating a new classification system. We are currently going through the process of writing a functionally identical rulebook.

[@briansmith5712]

I would like to see the "Junior" category be able to shoot 380 or even 22, based on age (maybe ages 7-10 shoot 22, and 11-14 shoot 380). My daughter(11yo) loves to shoot but cannot handle 9mm for more than a couple rounds. My local clubs are cool and let her shoot 380, but she doesnt have a USPSA member number and cant get classified. Not a big deal really, but she would like to be able to get a classification and feel part of the organization. Also, I think it would just get more youths involved in shooting sports earlier and provide sustainability to the firearms community.

[@ryridesmotox]

110% agree with that. Honestly, I wouldn't mind having an adult 22lr segment where I don't have to scrape the bowels of the internet for fucking primers every few weeks to load ammo.

[@GLOCKsh00ter24]

Can't shoot steel with a .22. Especially if there are activators or any steel blocking another target.

[@ryridesmotox]

@GLOCKsh00ter24 true, but a lot of stuff like a full diameter hit on steel would count, and all activator triggered paper engagements still should have a head box to engage. Count the hit as an activate and make the person shoot the 22 accurately. Handicap of shooting a 22

[@briansmith5712]

@@GLOCKsh00ter24 could make it where the activator has to be shot 3 times by the 22.. once for the "activation" and twice for activated points.. or make the activated targets no penalty mikes/ or no FTE, for the 22 only.. i mean for the 7-10 year olds at least

[@GLOCKsh00ter24]

@@briansmith5712 yeah, I get that there are ways around it. But, IMO, kids that young that can't handle a 9 as of yet would be better suited staying in SC and building their pistol skills there. They can be worked up with a really light load since there is no PF.

[@seanoneil277]

I've learned a lot from your dry fire books and your videos here. I've worked on creating parallel construct situations in the business world in several settings. What I'd say as a relatively new (2 seasons competing) shooter in a relatively remote area is that many of the rules are needlessly complex and the divisions seem to be created so that more "winners" can claim "wins" than because of practical handgun advantage inherent to the category. Distinctions in use, revolver vs semiauto in reloads alone warrant separation there, I'd say. Otherwise a parallel organization, if it attracts enough shooters, will grow organically in parallel. If you don't want to tangle with organizational friction then don't "port over" anything. Just give your reference points for your categories, and let the matches play out as they will. The best result will grow this way. I've enjoyed USPSA matches I've shot, but I've also enjoyed steel challenge and "outlaw" steel matches where the categories are much looser. I don't feel unfairly challenged, equipment wise, if someone's running an open gun at the same steel challenge match where I'm running a P-10C w/ RDS. Same in USPSA, I don't think to categorize-down to make me look better.

[@ProjectD13X]

Really enjoyed PCSL's national championship. There's also a proposed pistol only match ruleset out there that gets rid of a lot of the silly divisions like L10, Revolver, etc.

[@bikenurse]

I love the idea of a 2 hour match. Not sure how you'd make it work but count me in. I think the large block of time is one of the biggest things that keep people from participating. I can make it to the range every week for a couple hours but can never block out a whole day for playing guns.

[@walterwilliams1791]

Pretty sure going to matches every weekend helped convince my wife to file for divorce.

[@rickm4295]

This is what Professional Golf did sort of with LIV and PGA

[@rimfirecommando]

I'm really interested in seeing pcsl grow. I think that's an event that would get a lot of traction really quick.

[@WoodsDog]

Glad I read your comment. Looks like a good event to join.

[@LiveEazy]

Been to a couple events. They’re lots of fun

[@charlienoreen3749]

I'm interested when a program gets up and running. I'm on the board for 3 different gun ranges and I'm sure we would be doing it instead of uspsa

[@joshfelton7652]

I love this idea. One of my biggest issue with USPSA besides the politics, is how long the local club matches take to run (i.e. three minutes of shooting and four hours to run). The current system may be fine for retirees, but for the rest of us basically losing a whole day to attend a match that may be 60+ mi from home is not a compelling proposition.

[@rafap1719]

but that's probably a matter of specific MDs not a USPSA as organization ect. In Europe you can have local IPSC matches where you shoot 6-8 stages for almost a full day, and some other local matches where you shoot 6-8stages in 2hours.

[@kred3208]

@@rafap1719 that also depends on the # of people that show up to shoot. We all know a squad with 6 shooters goes fast but 16 on a squad take fooreevvveerrrrrrr. So bens idea to tee times and smaller squads kinda cool

[@rafap1719]

@@kred3208 That's something you plan ahead even for Level 1 matches.

[@mariosmith8456]

What is your suggestion to fix the problem of taking too long?

[@rafap1719]

@@mariosmith8456 Small squads. Let say you have 6 bays and 6 stages on them. Instead of running 6 big squads for whole day, run 12 small squads each completing in half a day. Way better experience for competitors.

[@ibtaba]

I like the postal match idea.

[@professorbellorum]

My $0.02 after being out of USPSA for a couple years of grad-school and missing out on some of the optics drama: set up categories based on usage scenario, honestly the old ones still work for me: Open, Limited, Production, Revolver (purely for historical value). Instead of adding new classes every couple years to cover more corner-cases, just allow for the divisions will be re-evaluated every year and a board or organization can debate and decide what features to include in open, limited, and production. It should be based on what community is actually carrying and using. Part of the justification for USPSA is to let people experiment (safely) and figure out what works best -- I think fostering more intense competition within classes that have multiple takes -- e.g. classic limited guns versus carry optics guns. If one meta-feature becomes inappropriately dominant in a division, then bump that feature up a division. I'm not up to speed enough with things these days but I could take a stab at the classes: Open: mag length limited to 171mm as current and with a basic restriction on bore size and some reasonable safety requirements. Limited: No Comps, 140mm mag limit, no speed holsters, optics allowed that are attached to the slide (I see no reason to ban optics when so many people now have them on their carry guns) mag wells OK, gun has to fit in a given box. Goal of this division are guns as customized as you would make them but to still be useable without custom comp loads and are just barely open-carriable. Production: Whatever our standard for "from the factory" guns is at this point in time. Limit 10rd mags sounds fine, carry optics sound fine, no porting, no gas pedals, no big mag wells, customized triggers. The standard for this division is that this is a gun you could conceivably carry concealed. Revolver: Anything with a wheel and some mooooon clips. ;

[@jediknight1294]

Production 15 rounds makes more sense given the modern stock handgun market and would reduce the cost for new shooters by needing lass mags, Keep minor scoring Limited serves a purpose because its for the heavily custom guns and Lim Major and Minor is a shooter choice decision where both are valid. Revolver NEEDS to be split between 6 and 8 now as Seperate divisions if we want it to actually reference real world revolvers rather than game guns. (I don't shoot much revolver because of the fact that 8rd 9mm revolvers are the dominant force. Which isn't what I want to shoot and doesn't reflect actual revolver use.) SAO major scoring for everything and 8rd max honestly makes sense and improves match design vs SOA major/minor. Optics vs irons do need to be Seperate classes generally which is an issue because it IS a different skill set and different style of shooting. But other than that I broadly agree with you Some classes need to reflect historic use revolver and Sao, se need to reflect modern trends.

[@RobinRobertsesq]

I am seeing increasing numbers of "outlaw" matches locally.

[@Logicinfact]

I am in Phoenix and have a few hours each week to help. I just don't know how to take it from idea to the range.

[@swiftaudi]

Just go and help the guys there will get you rolling.

[@NFAProductions]

Need to define the organization structure based on the goals or philosophy of what you are trying to accomplish. If you are just making powerade instead of gatorade, it is going to be tough to get it off the ground. Needs to have a clear structural advantage over USPSA. I'm not exactly sure what that is but the tee time idea is a great start. Making the divisions and rule book significantly simplified is another angle. USPSA gets so convoluted that it is not "fun" to shoot. To me, the philosophy should be much less about gear specifications and much more about practical shooting. Dots vs irons, who cares. IYSYS. Radically simplifying the divisions is appealing to me. But tbh as long as its NOT USPSA lite, people are ready to support.

[@brized]

@yzfr1tony Elegance isn't easy but it's possible.

[@stevel9828]

I think if someone was to start a new shooting sport similar to what is available currently, I would simplify the rules, divisions and wipe the slate clean and reclassify everyone in the new shooting sport. The biggest hurdle is getting clubs to objectively compare what the new sport provides vs what’s currently available.

[@mabutarif]

Would love to see an organization targeting the grassroots. USPSA feels now more of a competition with all the bad things that come with people competing and wanting to win than a place where people go and learn and practice practical shooting. Not sure how you can make sure there is a club level matches and/or something that has more of the shooting part and less of the competitive cut throat part. I like the thought of 2-hr club matches and May be with smaller squads or even mini stages offered 9-11, 11-1, 1-3 time slots

[@RimfireAddicted70]

Big hurdles such as getting corporate sponsors to jump the USPSA ship will be very difficult. I doubt they will let their shooters partake in such matches, plus be willing to lose advertising they have through current contracts. USPSA holds a lot of the key components to running a nation wide organization. Despite differences, making a real change in overall management might be easier and more acceptable to many members vs overthrowing the org completely.

[@glenpiggott5815]

Match fees pay for events , clubs get that money plus a small fee for all santioned events to cover operating costs .thats how many Countries run things ,very little sponsors available as "firearms bad" .if the shooters are there the sponsors will follow

[@sondogalpha468]

LIV Tour, but for USPSA. I love it.

[@Strandberg6]

Hello Ben. Why not just run IPSC straight across. Rulebook already ready to use. Just need to form clubs in different places, then just arrange matches. You round uspsa parts and rules, but put yourself in tune with the rest of the world. Like in Europe only IPSC applies and you have a world shoot that took place in Thailand recently. just my 5 cents.

[@Strandberg6]

@@notetaking9308 Considering everything that has occurred in the board and more in USPSA, it would not be an impossibility to achieve.

[@benadams9037]

When are you starting BSPSA?

[@ryridesmotox]

I think a simplified division system would be nice. Keep an open race gun category, eliminate pcc and revolver. Hi cap irons with 140mm mags Low cap irons with flush fits and/or local limit. High & Low cap optic (have a max weight maybe) Open with no weight limit. I feel like half the problem with stuff is that there are too many divisions. Productions, L10, revolver all can be rolled into a low cap iron & low cap optic. Which would take a huge chunk of the lesser contested divisions and make it one. High cap irons (Limited) with 9x19 major scoring 140mm mags High cap optic (slide mount and 140mm mags) Open 170mm mags Just my crazy brain thinking I dunno.

[@GLOCKsh00ter24]

Like you said it would have to be parallel to how USPSA matches/stages are shot. HF scoring. Major and minor PF. But none of the dipshit divisions that don't mean anything anymore. It would be nice to see humanoid targets with a smaller "A" zone and maybe one zone in the head area that can neutralize the target with 1 hit. I like the idea of honoring classifications from USPSA. I don't know how or if you could do the same for guys from steel challenge and/or IDPA. Limit the divisions to a certain number, and if one gets added one has to get axed. Or only add one if the majority of members vote for it. Basically USPSA with a little more emphasis on accuracy, and not retarded with how it's run.

[@devongrey4135]

One of my greatest frustrations with USPSA/IDPA is the ratio of time spent standing around to time spent shooting. I tried to get into it as a way of training... but if I were doing a training day, and every half hour, I spent 60 seconds training and 29 minutes standing around, you would rightfully consider that laziness, not training. Obviously, the inherent danger of shooting actual weapons imposes certain restrictions, but I cannot help thinking that there must be a better way to do this.

[@davidmarlow1719]

Stop looking at matches as training events, for starters. A match doesn't provide enough repetition to actually learn or improve. Use a match as an evaluation of your skills and look for areas that need improvement, then go train to fix those.

[@somebrains5431]

A bunch of people shoot slow local club matches bc that group is their only social event. It’s gets weird, I just want to shoot and go. Not talk about online interactions, getting dinner like a supper club, inter group dating, weird gear whoring. Just lemme shoot and not feel like it’s a consequence of being around potential weirdos.

[@davidmarlow1719]

@@somebrains5431 Then go shoot on your own. It's a club. That makes it a social event by nature.

[@b0lbi]

United States PISTOL Shooting Association. Aka uspsa

[@jacrispy9603]

The fact that limited optics is so shocking to some people shows the bloated burocracy of the Org. They have shoe horned so many people into investing so much money into convoluted rules that they have become resistant to litteraly any change. Sao guns don't magically make you a better shooter, especially in minor scoring divisions. A 59oz shadow 2 has every advantage a 2011 would have, but they have no problem with those. Most divisions just need to be combined in some sense.

[@davidhoward9722]

Call it ASPSU (association shooting practical states United……like the bizarro Superman

[@jimmorrison306]

I think USPSA has changed a lot since I started in 2012. More hosing. Closer targets. A dislike for most things not freestyle. Too many divisions. No basically stock division that isn’t an expensive arms race. Also, I took it kind of hard when they killed Revolver Division with 8-shot minor. It would also be nice to see scoring reflect a little more of a bias toward accuracy. I think the sport was more practical when I started. I would hate to see the sport disappear, but I also hated to see Ben go. And some of the things Ben mentioned, like smoother running club matches, would be nice improvements.

[@R41D]

why not IPSC?

[@glefos3917]

Find a couple of MDs for big matches and have them run the match unaffiliated to USPSA. Double Tap or FLOP. Somebody really just needs to write a revised rulebook and set up an org as a “sanctioning body” only. No fees, no membership. MDs get to run matches for profit or non-profit. Hit up the mfg and ask what they want in an org. Let them be a technical committee. Do the same with a few high level shooters. Let them be a competition committee. It would start slow, but I think it would gain traction quickly.

[@thomassmith280]

I am all in favor of a new organization if there are enough younger talented people that are willing to sacrifice the time. Looking at the USPSA election calendar there will be 2 more elections in July of 2023. Area 6 and 8. If those two elections go well they would paired with the new strong Area 3 and 7 directors. If the new area 4 director has not been tainted by the current regime that would provide a 5 seat majority of new blood. The A2D has stated that he is not going to run in July 2024 saying that he “didn’t sign up for the drama”. A good deal of that drama, by the way, he authored himself. There is a glimmer of hope that by July 2024 the tide will have turned for the good. Just food for thought.

[@thedoubleop]

I would sign up immediately.

[@brianj3626]

Any attempt at forming a new organization will echo the fate of the USFL, XFL, ABA, UFL, USBL, WHA, etc.

[@alexanderv5190]

Hello Ben ! What is the speed and weight of the bullets in your cartridge?? Thank you !

[@lukearcher886]

Ditch PCC and we can talk..... lol

[@chrisdiceart]

Range near me shut down - USPSA has become irrelevant since there are no matches within a 4 hour round trip drive IN TEXAS! I left Ca thinking TX would be great… 😢

[@wmetzler01]

Really? I live slightly north of Dallas and there are no shortage of matches every month and a practice matches also.

[@chrisdiceart]

@@wmetzler01 I’m west of FT Worth. Triple C closed and I’ve been out of luck on the west side of the Metro… I’d be happy to get a list of matches….

[@wmetzler01]

@@chrisdiceart go into practiscore and enter these clubs: 1). NTXLF they run great practice matches - Ryan Wilks is the MD and he’s awesome. 2). JCSSA great match if you can get in and it fills up fast, 3). XMG USPSA another great club and the match fills fast, 4). CTASA has both outdoor and indoor matches, 5). Collin County USPSA great matches there also. All of those are within 1.5 hours of Ft Worth. Lot’s of talent at those matches with several competitors that finished in the top 10 at many area matches, top 10 in nationals, and many level 2 winners.

[@davidstephens9936]

So limited optics would be major power factor?

[@olathestanwalker6717]

If I'm reading the proposal correctly, the limited provisional division is minor power factor only. If you are a USPSA member, go to the site and vote. There are several options including skipping the provisional and placing directly into CO. Probably too radical for USPSA, but would be nice. I shoot a Wilson EDC X9L and am having the slide cut for an optic so I would be shooting open if they don't change the rules. Hope they do, but everyone needs to voice their opinion.

[@uscmCorps]

In. I haven’t renewed my USPSA membership due to the tomfoolery going on over there.

[@Dadsgrow505]

Hey Ben. Being perfectly honest I have never shot a match but I am very interested in starting which is where and why I have found your material. After seeing and hearing about the corruption going on in USPSA I will not be giving them any of my money until they have their shit together. So if another organization comes out of all this BS then all the better for everyone.

[@swiftaudi]

No one is always going to be happy with rule changes weather they are good or bad.

[@davidmarlow1719]

So, what is it about USPSA that people are upset about? Is it the actual matches being put in, or is it the administration? Most people just want to go shoot a fun match and don't really care about the ins and outs of how the system is run, right?

[@BlindBatG34]

At what point does USPSA just let everyone make up their own division?

[@EuropaChronicles]

They’ll also need to add in a bunch of age brackets like you find at 5k road races. I mean, how awesome would it be to say that you’re the champion of C-class L10 in the 55-59 age bracket?! Everyone gets a trophy!

[@pepengkaliwete5932]

How about just plain ipsc rules, instead of using uspsa rules.

[@robertthomas497]

Could you be any more vague? It sounds like a bunch of theories being thrown about with little if any true thought about any intention of putting anything into action. A "power behind the throne" move at best.

[@larryfrancis5839]

Sounds like you want the same thing as we have now. That sounds really dumb.

[@larryfrancis5839]

@@beefnyan opinions are just like asshole . Everyone has one.

[@tedy5676]

We need to completely eliminate the classification system. who cares what your title is? shoot the classifier and your time is your time. get rid of all the different categories as far as scoring. in the far right column you can see what kind of gun youre shooting. and if the top 5 are all raceguns, the next 5 are all carry optics, so be it. you can brag within your gun group. Ego is a huge issue in shooting and we need to remove ego from the situation by eliminating "false awards" like being classified as a "master" when in reality you game your stages late into the night in order to cut time. Also, when eventually you see someone with a gun that is generically "slower" than your gun (or so you think) you can understand its not about the gun. "WOW HOW DID BEN STOEGER SMOKE ME WITH IORN SIGHTS?!" uhh he shoots more, practices more, is better, is faster, is stronger? problem?

[@nicalife3849]

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