Value for Money

[@MarshalArnold]

Great video Tim! I worked as a machinist through my 20's. A few things we forget about or are unaware of as consumers are things like cost per unit. Cost of scale plays a big part in how much a final product costs ultimately. The more made at once usually translates to lower price per unit. They entire synth market probably never gets any ware near the numbers in the PC or mobile phone space, which is in part why we've seen prices of phones and computers fall off a cliff.. They make billions of those VS around 3000 Moog One's for example. Also, labor is a huge factor in the process. A product made in a country that pays nearly nothing to employees has a leg up, is sad that happens today, but is true. So where it's made can have a huge impact as well. In general based on my experience in that industry for a decade was that materials never cost more than the labor payed to employees. But that plastic euro rack chassis likely was formed in a mold.. Now a single mold is capable of probably thousands of units, but the process to make the mold itself is extremely complex and very expensive. Again the cost per unit here helps a ton, the more you can make quickly the cheaper they cost. Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Love your vids 👍😁

[@Eleni_Be]

So much truth in this. But you watering your plants explaining your take on humor was the most intriguing moment.

[@jasonramler]

Tim, I love the humor! Telling us a bedtime story works perfect with your calm demeanor and cozy sweater. Honestly, you have a very calming effect in this crazy world that has so much loud noise begging to be heard. Keep up the great work!

[@nalaeel219]

As someone else had mentioned. These companies are probably not selling alot of units. But your spot on. More affordable and cheaper gear is always going to benifit the consumers.

[@jdanielcramer]

I was fortunate enough to be a guest at Ensoniq’s plant in Philly years ago. 🤠 nice guys, limos and BBQ, their engineers let us design a piece of equipment on paper and helped us calculate its market pricing. 🤔 by the time we were finished, our little piece of gear (should’ve sold for $2000) was going to cost the consumer about $50,000.00 🤣🤣🤣 this is a great video but you’ve not even scratched the surface regarding the economies of pricing. 👍

[@TheDazlermac]

Agree the eurorack boxes are outrageously expensive! I was even surprised at the cost of the Behringer case. Great video btw. Thanks

[@sadblyte8404]

You're saying everything right. I live 30km from Moscow, we also have huge prices for foreign synthesizers. You say everything correctly, manufacturers without competition are completely brazen. sorry for my English, I'm writing through google translator :)

[@vitoleo7197]

Hello Tim, thank you for your very nice and interesting videos. I am an amateur musician but a professional in polymer processing. I agree that prices seems crazy high for those "piece of plastics". The fact is that a large mold, especially with moving cores to create intricate parts, holes or other features, would cost easily several 100 thousands pounds/EUR. This is why Injection Molding is typically used for large scale production (100.000 to millions). If you were to make only 1000 cases, the mold alone would contribute 200 pounds to the price ! Modern 3D printing techniques (for the mold or the part) or use of softer metal (Al) for molds can bring pricing down for small series. But as some other comments pointed out, with conventional techniques, small series do suffer from huge fixed costs, and Injection Molding is really not intended for few thousands shot...

[@vitoleo7197]

P.S. Material cost is only a few pounds/Kg

[@lindsaywebb1904]

Exactly. It's a tiny market and you can't compare it to consumer markets

[@stephenparry6811]

but at some point in the production cycle the cost of the mould would surely be paid for? it is comparable to ms office or other software r&d costs are at some point paid & the cost to the consumer represents pure profit for the company.... & elsewhere in this thread of comments people have mentioned comparable moulded items sold for a fraction of the cost 300quid for a plastic case does seem excessive

[@dodgingrain3695]

The profit margin isn't as high as you think on that piece of plastic lid because the sales volume is so low. The mold for that piece of plastic is expensive. Profit margin is heavily dependent on the number of manufactured units.

[@UndercoverBC]

There are HUGE tooling costs involved in creating moulds, and those costs need to be amortized over the number of units that you plan to sell. If volume is low, as has been said already, then a higher value has to be applied to each unit. Also, there is freight needs to be factored in. You are paying to ship the ‘air space’. This is why things like Gator cases are so expensive, even though they are “just plastic” as you say. I think this guy has no idea of true costs that are involved in a product. Just ignorance.

[@rickjacobs8923]

The Prologue 16 is mid-level like the REV2. I had a DM12, which was great, but the sound of the Prologue 16, with 32 VCO's + multi-engine (and compressor) takes it to the next level. Super value for the sound, especially using Tim's oscillators.

[@kevinbatchelor9566]

As someone who bought the 16 voice Moog One, I am not neutral on its value proposition, but I can say that the inspiration it has provided me with over the last 18 months has been pretty much invaluable. Especially in this weird Covid reality, where I rarely get to do much that would constitute normal, I have been able to pass the days exploring this fabulous instrument. I also ordered the Prophet 10...whoops!

[@LocaliLLocano]

kevin batchelor I agree. I can drop 3000 on synths and not regret it. If you use it almost every day you can depreciate the costs much better. Some weekends I spend easily 10 hours playing. Multiply that by 4. Ok let’s say renting a synth costs 20 dollars an hour and you spent 40 hours a month. You have easily used 800 of the synth already. Yes that prophet 10 looks good too I will probably get it too.

[@jdanielcramer]

I’d love to have one but I worry about the tuning issues that Tim demonstrated in his video? 🙀

[@FilipMilerX]

Everything depends on production volume. The first piece of plastic produced is extremely expensive, the milionth costs nothing. You need special tool for every shape you want to mold and every tool costs like a luxury car. I know of some kickstarter projects just for making pieces of plastic. So if you estimate only hundreds of units will be sold, you have to charge high price. Analog synths are luxury goods, nobody really need them for professional music making. So the estimated production volumes are very low.

[@mb72oz]

And getting that mold made is very expensive, something I think Tim is perhaps not aware of. It isn't just about production costs, it's about the costs getting to production (including the design, prototyping and production of the relevant mold).

[@isaakkelterer]

@@mb72oz in times of computer aided design (CAD) and 3D-Printers it's not too difficult to produce the master-form, or not ?

[@nerfytheclown]

You got it right. There are only so many potential buyers, the company needs to justify actually producing the product and no company can make a product at an intentional loss. Cheers.....oh yeah: it also matters that you are buying a thing that does what you want it to do. Make the tool and see if the time was worth your money.

[@mk1st]

Also, in regards to the Doepfer power supply kit example, you still have to make the case yourself. Assuming someone has the tools and skills, should the time and materials for doing that be factored in? Of course! Would that be worth $200? I'd think so, probably more I'd say. The "plastic tray" is a fantastic short cut to get going with a modular setup.

[@wildphilpresents]

Damn Tim, you nailed it. I don't normally like to comment on stuff, but I felt in line with this big time. I am a huge fan of synths and own 30-40 (haven't counted in awhile) full size synths/samplers/etc. For me the struggle has always been, with newer synth market, value vs. used now. With synths like the Virus TI/TI2 series it's hard to compare a lot of the modern stuff with their price tag. Even new, the TI2 (2015) was going for $2,000-2,500 and at the time was considered the ferrari of synths. Yet, today people are saying things like the Dave Smith stuff, like you, is comfortably expensive. Why though? Feature-per-dollar they're outrageous compared to previous pieces of gear. The Pro-2 is laughable when compared to any of the Waldorf stuff, even if you wanted to tap into the Blofeld. Yes, with the blofeld you're getting awful menu diving, but for the features and actual control of your sound? Not even comparable. I thought Studiologic was going to really push the boundaries with the Sledge line being what it was for it's price as well as mentioned the Behringer Deepmind series which were rather revolutionary once you factor in the modulation capabilities. Even then though, I'd rather drop $800 on a Sledge 2.0 black edition than a Pro-2. The only difference is you're getting to tell people the Pro-2 is analog. That's it though. You're paying an extra $1,300 to be able to say it's analog. In a mix, no one knows the difference. Much like the Moog. It's the Apple of synths. You're paying for the fact you can say it's a Moog and that it's made in America (well assembled, the components are still chinese). For some, this has value. Being able to say you have a modern Sequential Circuit or Moog synth. However, get your hands on an Ensoniq ESQ-1, or SD-1, or even the unicorn FIZMO. See what kind of sound designing you can do there and then look at your price tag. An SD-1 is a masterpiece when it comes to sound creation and hell I paid $150 for mine at a Music-Go-Round 3 years ago. This is why I entirely support Behringer. They're shaking the cages of these companies and telling everyone: "Look! It's so cheap to produce these devices, that we can do the same thing for 1/10th the price!" Is the build quality the same? Not really. Will a Behringer System 100 clone set last as long as the Roland remakes? Probably not. Can I buy 2-3 of those modules for the same price of the Roland and will those 2-3 last longer than the Roland one? Absolutely! That's usually the argument you see though, "it's not a Moog" or "it's made in America." So what? I'm not going to over-pay for a mediocre product just because it's got a fancy name or is made in a specific region (again, assembled). This is why I LOVED that you used the book at the beginning, because it truly touches the state of our synth community. In the past, companies got killed by their overpriced monstrosities. Like the FIZMO for Ensoniq I mentioned before or the Alesis Andromeda. They, like the Moog One, were priced out of the market, and in turn they lost their asses on those and nearly crumbled the companies. People boycotted them (except those rich folks that got the few that were sold) and didn't bother with them. The Eurorack market REALLY needs the competition to put it into realistic standards, and folks should stop showing off how much they spent on something as a sign of talent or status. Also, finally to address the power supplies? 2 separate voltage power supplies have been around for 30+ years and are dirt cheap. You can get a dual voltage psu for around $30 if you shop outside of the eurorack market and look more at electronic component market. Most redemption-style arcades run on dual voltage power supplies that do +/-5v and +/-12v to control the lights and the circuit boards separately and they go for $10-30 but need some smarts on the splicing of powerlines and what-not. Regardless if going DIY to replicate that TipTop box with a vacuum plastic press you're talking AT MOST $80 for the whole case in cost with AT MOST 1 hour of labor at $20/hr. so $100 out the door cost. From the outside looking in, as I've only been building my case for 3 weeks now, Eurorack has always been a nose-in-the-air setup because of how the boutiques market themselves. I was happier than a pig in shit when I saw Behringer moving into that market and that's why I just started joining Eurorack community, with my home-made box that cost all of $200 in parts/labor for a 9u that's going to be filled with a replica 100, 55, and 2500. After that I MIGHT look into the boutiques if they start coming down. Dreadbox definitely has been catching my eye spitting out $100 modules as well. I'd love to see some nameless/white label panels going for pennies on the dollar on some of these "fancy" modules like Maths. Sorry for the dissertation, but I'll leave it with this: What you paid for it, isn't what impresses us, it what you did with it that does.

[@markslandingsandaviationvi3123]

To this topic you nailed it😀 I recently saw a video about a live jam with a Behringer Crave. It’s amazing what types of videos are on KZbin right now! We are truly in the golden age of synth videos!👍 The video I saw was from a guy named “El Botzo” go and check him out, he can do anything with the Crave. This is just to show that you can do anything. It is in my opinion about how good the player is😀

[@rui5421]

I concur 😂

[@vigneshkarthikeyan8174]

My god this was awesome. Could you please recommend a good alternative to the oberheim. I just want to start with deep dark growly sounds and any input with a reasonable priced approach would be infinitely appreciated!

[@TheBBG31]

@@vigneshkarthikeyan8174 Hi Vignesh. Tim released a video on how to replicate the Oberheim filter sound 3 years ago kzbin.info/www/bejne/hXXNXoGiar2Mg6M . I hope it helps.

[@jukkauh]

The Eurorack situation is very simple: economies of scale. Tiptop isn't selling 50,000 of these, so their fixed costs are very high. This is a problem across the board for Eurorack. Lots of small makers with high fixed costs.

[@wildphilpresents]

It's a double edged sword though. For instance, myself, I'd rather buy any of the new Behringer reproductions of the System 100, Model 35/55, and 2500 modules at $50-150 than I would drop $500 on a module that I find out I don't like. Their price also hinders their sales. The lack of sales hinders their price. Basically, if these boutique companies lowered their prices to something a bit more reasonable, more people would jump on the bandwagon of eurorack. Being a synth player/collector myself, I waited until about 3 weeks ago to hold off on getting into eurorack simply because the $5,000+ to get a synth that is about 1/1,000th the value-per-feature of even like a Virus TI2 or hell even a cheaper Blofeld or whatever. It basically was a "rich hipster-only" market until some of the bigger companies started stepping in and bringing in affordable modules. Hopefully it changes things. I'd love to own some Make Noise stuff, but at $500 minimum per module, it's just not logical to me to buy into.

[@richardpennington5445]

Tooling for the plastic part using injection moulding would be in the region of $20,000. However it should be possible to 3D print these kind of low volume items for significantly less (as the printer would be able to be used for production of other items).

[@joeponce1394]

I paid $4,500 for my prophet V synth back in 1979! The newest synth prices are actually cheaper due to the lower cost of technology and production in China.

[@TheMirolab]

Forget the China part.... My Prophet-6 is every bit as good as good as the P-V (just a bit different) and Made in USA, and it was $2800. That's a steal compared to anything from 30 years ago.

[@ronj9448]

Remember an IPhone today has more power than a Cray Supercomputer of the late 70s. Tech is a lot cheaper.

[@a-nus]

@@ronj9448 "new tech the issue is that synths use old tech which isnt manufactured in a large capacity (or basically anywhere outside of China) anymore Same issue with guitar tube amps

[@ronj9448]

@@a-nus They might be using "technical ideas" that are older but the components they are using are modern manufacturing. So I'm not sure of what issue you're trying to point out.

[@SunsetRC]

Thank you Tim for making this. Always look forward to your videos and they are so well put together. So my thoughts on all this... I know we have people say " I bet this thing only costs a penny to make! " We have all heard that. While that might be true, people never consider all the overhead and other expenses that have nothing to do with the materials; Staff, payroll, designers, prototypes, hours of research, facility costs, web development, online marketing, product photography, video production, actors & models, packaging, box design, and the list goes on. All this just to get the gear out the door. So I think with this perspective we can see why the markup. Otherwise without it, I believe these products would never exist. Love what you do. Loyal fan.

[@matthewdeward1984]

what about the minilougue regular? that one is analogue

[@mk1st]

It's a great time to be a synth lover...so many choices for reasonable prices, plus all the different types of synthesis that's available makes anything possible. I used to lust after the original stuff but modern manufacturers have gone above and beyond.

[@davebellamy4867]

"Comfortably expensive." Love that expression!

[@CaptainAhorn]

Great addition to the dialogue. On that mantis case, the closest analogue to think of is a PC power supply and PC case. The PS needs multiple clean voltages and the case has some machining work for fitting components. A PS will run you $25 and a cheap case another $25, and we can figure the margins are slim but there. So a Eurorack case is probably “worth” $50-$75 tops. Even if you factor in low-rate production and double that, $100-150 tops. Clearly synth manufacturers are taking advantage of the “boutique” market to overcharge. Then you get willing shills on message boards who defend such pricing to assert the size of their wallets. Another interesting avenue to explore is comparing a Behringer product (who claim to price on the basis of components + margin) with its most similar competitor.

[@NOLNV1]

if that rack was in a different business, for instance if it actually was for mounting plants and the circuit boards were for driving lights or something and it was sold in a garden shop, it would go for 25 £ or so

[@MelloState]

So true!!! You can buy some crazy complex stuff for a cheap price. Hell if we want, you can buy a decent bike for a couple hundo when it's made from a bunch of metal which is more expensive than plastic

[@NOLNV1]

@@MelloState There was a guy on youtube who bought a cheap IKEA piece of furniture to get access to a large metal sheet which he was remaking into a plate reverb, because those raw materials would cost him more. It is very odd.

[@thegreaterconundrum]

I think it really all goes back to how much the consumer understands about how the product works. The harder it is to understand, the more companies can get away with huge markups.

[@NOLNV1]

@@thegreaterconundrum i honestly think it is mostly labour costs and scale, Ikea things are made cheap as possible and as many as possible,and the same is true of behringer and korg synths,pretty much.

[@iqi616]

Now there's a great idea - design it for both markets and just have different labels and circuits!

[@deastman2]

As others have commented, you need to consider economies of scale. Synthesizers are a small market, with a small production volume, and little to no opportunities to leverage the lower prices which come with production at scale. You also need to consider the cost of doing business. There is far more to the price of a consumer product than the cost to manufacture. They need to budget for employee salaries, sick leave, retirement plans, health insurance, taxes, rent, marketing budget, technical support, and any number of other expenses, not to mention profit margins. I'm certain that Moog and Sequential both believe they are pricing their products fairly at a rate which yields a sustainable business while treating their employees fairly. Whether the synth-buying public feels that provides sufficient value for money is a different question altogether.

[@bikegarrett]

Treating employees well is not a 'merican value, hence why did unions need to be formed ?

[@deastman2]

@@bikegarrett I didn’t mention American values. American capitalism seems to favor taking advantage of the workers in order to maximize profit. I’m thinking of specific small businesses such as Moog and Sequential who are more likely to value the contributions of their employees. Moog, in particular, is employee-owned.

[@bikegarrett]

Yes craftsmen should be paid well for their craft agreed

[@Heathcliff_hensel]

Labor is definitely costly especially hiring electrical engineers.

[@a-nus]

These arguments don't hold up when you consider synthesizers are not manufactured in a vacuum.

[@seancraig5373]

I enjoy your videos-and you've made some very good point here. I suspect we will see more companies moving into the polysynth world soon-with lower prices. At least I hope so! I think when you get to the $4-$8k zone for a synthesizer you start wondering if you could buy a car for that much money. Of course-some can justify it, but others with a music "hobby" like myself cannot. I will wait for the competition to ramp up more before buying a polysynth. I can see that competition coming (and several below do too)!

[@davebellamy4867]

I think the same about those plastic moulded dust shields for some synths that cover the top panels but don't prevent the dust getting under the keys where it's actually going to make its way inside - or the output / input sockets in the rear which are going to fill with dust also if left uncovered.

[@ktreier]

To be fair manufacturers must amortize the cost of R&D across the anticipated production run so even the polycarbonate cover likely has a pretty substantial initial tooling cost that must amortized across a likely relatively small production run. But there are clear wide deltas in price. I would argue my Novation Summit at a quarter the price of a Moog One is a wonderful polysynth but its a digital/analog hybrid and therefore might not appeal to those looking for that 100% analog sound. Let’s face it in blind tests most cannot tell the difference between a VST and the real thing. But those of us that prefer HW like the tactile feel. My day job is spent staring at a Computer Screen, I don’t want to it in my studio also.

[@sarahhey8654]

Interesting video analysis Tim👌 For the price of one Moog One, some folks might choose maybe 4 or 5 synths as a collection with different characters rather than one (albeit the Moog One is tri-timbral with fx)...e.g a vintage analog subtractive poly synth, a modern digital FM synth, a wavetable synth, a 3 osc monosynth with CV, a drum machine / sampler sequencer and some fx pedals. Ultimately which ever synth(s) inspires creativity and brings you happiness is most important, and that is priceless.

[@fattyboombatty7736]

Nice video Tim. Someone had to say it. I think in the niche market, like Eurorack where items are not being churned out in their thousands, then the design/tooling element plays a bigger part in the cost. That said, the vacuum formed lid, once the tooling has been done (which is moderately expensive) would come in at around 30p in terms of materials and energy. Add a bit of shipping and you still have an overpriced widget. I have a Eurorack system and when friends see it one of the first questions they ask is "How much?" and I'm sure they are thinking "...well it's a kit so it must be quite cheap". At that point I am genuinely embarrassed to tell them how much it was. There are people in the world who don't earn as much in a month as an average unit costs and yet you hear some saying, "oh, just go out and buy it", which is humiliating for our wee community. Emperor's new clothes - I think so.

[@24framemedia]

I do believe you get what you pay for mostly. I got a great deal on my Moog One 8 voice and I was still on the fence about buying it mostly because it's the most I have ever spend on a single piece of gear. However I've owned a lot of synths in my life, thew vintage synths that could compete with a Moog One at at minimum $10k or more for a vintage synth that is 40 years old and will likely require regular maintenance that comes at an added inflated cost. I don't regret spending the money I spent on my Moog One and I would take it over a DSI synth any day.

[@Pintosonic]

Plastic parts can be really expensive to make if the production volume is low. Injection moulds for parts that you have shown can be anywhere from 30k usd to 50k usd. After that it might cost 1$ of plastic for each parts you make. So if you make 1000 cases like that per year and you expect to keep the same model for 2 years it mean that your cost will be between 16$ and 26$ per parts. If your volume is 100k units per year, you get a massive economy of scale because the moulds cost is spread over more units so in that case it’s 1.25$ instead of 26$

[@phazerbrains]

I think a lot of people are fooled by Behringer - they make a copy of this case and sell it for $35 less. It is still $300 for a piece of plastic with a power supply. Their mono clones are all around $320. For $344 you can get a Korg Monologue that also has an added keyboard and sequencer. I don't understand the disconnect. The only exception I can think of is the Deepmind, which is quite a good value for the money.

[@mauchkimberly]

Interesting you brought up the minilogue. I actually think that Behringer's clones have done a bit of damage to the value of the minimogue, for the simple fact that, mentally, a person puts things in categories, even if they're not entirely rational on all levels. So, you mention the minimogue is just a bit more, and has a keyboard. Without the Behringer's this might appear, to a newbie, to be "entry level". But with Behringers's it comes off as just above a clone...so cheap (quality). So then, with the Behringers, a newbie might be more enclined to buy the cheap clone, because it's a clone of something people like (sound wise) than to buy the cheap minilogue, because it's poor quality (even if it may not necessarily be poor quality) and doesn't have a "special" sound. Anyway, my point is I completely agree with you about Behringer, but their efforts might actually be having a more damaging affect that goes unnoticed.

[@Syntox]

Always treasure your reasonable, sober analysis of things

[@jackpijjin4088]

Why hasn't somebody made a PC PSU-to-Eurorack converter... thing? Also that plastic case genuinely looks like a repurposed toolcase..

[@_P_M_]

I think people often want synths to be expensive because it creates an exclusivity among owners. There are no bragging rights in owning VST's like there is in owning a Moog or having a room full of vintage, sought after gear. It is interesting that Behringer gets lambasted for releasing inexpensive remakes of classics people want, but it's fine for Moog to reissue a 50 yr old synth and charge 3 grand for it.

[@_P_M_]

@@reasonablywintry7147 So what? Can only Gibson make a LesPaul? Does Moog get to trademark the Model D in perpetuity? Those trademarks have ended, and those companies have had ample opportunity to profit from their products and to reissue the old gear that people have been begging for. So far they've either made software versions of them or reissued them at premium prices. Behringer correctly read the market and gave people what they wanted, authentic circuit for circuit remakes with modern enhancements. Why this upsets people is beyond me because it happens in every other industry. Choice is a good thing. If some people prefer to drop 3k on a 50 yr old monosynth design, let them. These aren't 200 year old cellos, they're cheap electronics, which often weren't all that well built to begin with. I'm happy we have other options.

[@rosscogiordano1796]

@@_P_M_ They're perceived as akin to works of art, where the price is determined by speculative valuation- of the industry pushing the opinion (branding), market scarcity, as well as the opinion of the buyer (their upholding of the model/brand itself).

[@a-nus]

@@_P_M_ bad comparison, Gibson is despised outside of boomers

[@Chyuuch]

This was extremely insightful. In the end a light bulb went off and all I could this was, "Behringer!" I mean I still don't want one, but I definitely get it. lol

[@architectofechoes4]

The Schmidt synth is a rare beast at around £20K and the Buchla Skylab around £14,800 ouch !

[@ben1210]

The Moog Emerson clocked in at $150,000. Still sold out though!

[@noahsimons2716]

Arturias polybrute hangs out in that middle range as a competitor to all those Dave Smith synths.

[@timothyclay1943]

At least here in Australia, the Polybrute 6-voice clocks in at $3999AUD retail, and the DSI Prophet rev2 8-voice clocks in at $2799AUD. I wouldn't consider them to be direct competitors at that pricepoint.

[@noahsimons2716]

@@timothyclay1943 yeah in the states the polybrute is coming in at $2499 where the Prophet 6 is at $2799. The Rev 2 is still $1500 and it's competitors are probably the Peak and the prologue. In terms of full blown polyphonic analog synths using actual VCOs (the rev 2 uses DCOs) the polybrute is strangely the most affordable fully fledged keyboard equipped option on the market. Which is what Tim Shoebridge was specifying in that segment of his video. Is the polybrute worth $2499? IDK kinda maybe who knows haha.

[@samprock]

Beats it I guess. Keeping aside brand-religious attachments, it’s only $3.5 fair for pure DSI fans. As Tim calculated per-vco price. $2.5 PB is a right price for me, with innovative controls and sequencer, all together well wrapped up package.

[@SunsetRC]

I think Arturia should focus more on sound quality rather than build quality.

[@RayyMusik]

@@SunsetRC The sound quality of Arturia synths is superb. Why should they neglect the build quality?

[@wedream2]

How about the Schmidt 8 voice analogue synth for 16-20 grand? Or the CMS 2607 monophonic Arp clone for $7500? To me, the value is in the range and quality of sound production (and of course, the user interface).

[@pgpete]

18:33 by the looks of that piece of plastic - its probably compression moulded - this means 2 metal die(s) suitable to be installed into an injection moulding machine have to be made. I'm guessing at $5000 to $10,000 for those to be made - that costs has to spread over the cost of the finished product - so its not just the cost of the raw materials....

[@Angelstarscotland]

Good video Tim, the bit that really annoys me is the price of things like cases keyboard stands...... the things that don’t make your music sound any better. £300 quid for a stand can get a good monosynth for that.

[@senacht]

In the meantime Behringer continues to kick the legs out from under the industry in terms of pricing. With regard to “economies of scale” I worked for many years in IT. And there are few pieces of electronic gear that have been deployed in larger numbers than network switches, routers, servers, and similar equipment. Yet the prices on some of the premier name brands still remains quite high. When clients used to ask me why everything had to be so expensive, I had to fight down the urge to tell them the simple truth: It doesn’t have to be this expensive - it just is.

[@thedonal]

It's such an interesting and subjective discussion is value for money. I think that if you keep and use a synth for many years and it still works and gives a great experience, the purchase cost becomes irrelevant and therefore the value grows exponentially. Yes- you have to have the cash to buy the synth in the first place (or access to the credit), but the length of service becomes a factor. If you buy a cheap synth that costs under £300 that you don't really use, then that is poor value for money compaired to a £2000 synth you get loads of joy from- playing and programming. I do think some brands charge for the name in any instrument market- I liken Moogs to Gibson guitars. You are paying a premium for the brand and heritage. However, they are made in the US (or at least assembled there in Moog's case)- which is a more expensive place to manufacture than China, Korea or Singapore, fore example. Either way, if you get a Moog One, really click with it and get years of joy and use from it, then it's earned its cost. If you make money from using it, this dynamic changes. So many variables!

[@DavidLee07]

Another factor is the used value of a synth. If you paid good money for it but can recover most of that money after using it, that reinforces the value of the purchase price. But the ideal scenario is you love and use the synth for years at which point the price is amortized over time through the value you get out of playing it. I do appreciate Behringer's entry into the market as it enables many musicians with limited means to get a taste of analog beasts they could never otherwise afford (unless they were canny purchasers of then outdated and unpopular analog synths immediately following the digital synth revolution). Time will tell how all the models hold up sonically and for reliability but they're giving thousands of players the chance to live the dream.

[@thedonal]

@@DavidLee07 Definitely. And for me, the Behringers do a cracking job too and hopefully will bring us soon the opportunity to obtain something close to some rare and very expensive instruments that many of us would only either dream of, or use with software (which is fine- but I'm a tactile fella and I like the hands on thing with my synths).

[@DavidLee07]

@@thedonal It's exactly the same for me, which is why I have a UB-Xa on pre-order. I had a Matrix 6, but it just wasn't the same. Developing muscle memory without having to look at the controls is a huge part of the musical equation for me - that way you can change the sound intuitively while playing.

[@thedonal]

@@DavidLee07 Most of their pipeline is on my list- the modulars, 2600 and CS80 are lifelong dreams of mine! Though Sequential have dropped the Prophet 5/10 bomb and I'm starting to wish for a deep money pot.. :D

[@DavidLee07]

@@thedonal Yep, CS80 is a lifelong dream for me as well. While the new Prophet 5/10 look nice, thankfully I have my modded Prophet 600 as a less expensive alternative--with VCO pan spread, with the Prophet never had. Must resist...

[@davebellamy4867]

6:10 How about the $500 difference between the plastic Pro3 and the Pro3 with wood? What, $1600 vs $2100?

[@oddomadic]

Oh but the one with wood has tilting options.

[@MilesBader]

different markets...

[@makromizer]

I don't think the lack of competition is the main issue for high prices. There is probably a good reason why no other manufacturer is jumping on the bandwagon, undercutting these $50 wobbly plastic cases. In open markets, lack of competition is usually the result of low volumes. And low volume is what widens the gap between marginal and total unit cost. In contrast, Behringer is leveraging synergies from manufacturing components in large quantities that are used throughout the whole audio spectrum, thereby narrowing that gap. After all, a synth is mainly components cladded together, and only a few of those components are used for synths exclusively. And the result speaks for itself. A Deepmind costs about 10 to 20 times less inflation adjusted than a synth with vaguely similar capabilities in the 80s. This kind of depreciation is anything but insignificant.

[@DarkSideofSynth]

Exactly! Computers and smartphones are sold in millions, synths are not, never were. Even on the software side, audio and music software sales figures pale compared to other fields. Figures have certainly gone up compared to the '80s because more people have become buyers and there was no online market 40 years ago, etc. That is true for any other musical instrument, though and for other industries. And let's not forget that prices are not just determined by cost.

[@vincenteoppolo9025]

I tend to think manufacturers simply want to live comfortably on our money.

[@pyerbass]

I'm impressed how the question of quantity is completely overlooked. Yes pastic is cheap, but moulding is not. The smallest piece of plastic require an investment of minimum 15000, and 2cents of plastic per pieces, so the price depends of quantity. You want to check value for money of a synth? Add how many they make Inthe equation. This is why computer price have drop down and synth has not, and why eurorack is expansive. What we need is not more competition but more users

[@iqi616]

Good video but it's important not to focus exclusively on material costs (the hangup which means people think software and music should be free because a download appears to have no material cost). For niche products there's a living that has to be made from small sales (or at least enough income to maintain enthusiasm for the hassles of designing, manufacturing, and supporting a product). Eurorack versus Behringer is a good comparison. Uli knows he can sell synths in the thousands underwritten by his bread-and-butter products. That means he can use his "cost plus" pricing policy. In contrast, a good selling Eurorack product is only going to sell in the hundreds at best. The power supplies are probably the least fair product to choose to discuss pricing because they are the only true commodity product in that entire field because all racks need them regardless of whether the rack is commercial or DIY and regardless of the modules going in the rack. The material costs of plastic items are low but the tooling and development costs have to be spread across the production run. With small runs, the material costs are almost negligible in comparison to the other costs. That's what the customer is buying. It's only with massive production runs where development and tooling costs start to become negligible. Incidentally the closest I have to modular is a Neutron and currently I have no plans to buy modular products.

[@watchaddicts1213]

Perhaps now that MOOG is gone Big Corporate, they’ll get around to substituting some Walmart-sourced parts, tell us it still sounds the same, then after MOOG INC releases the VST Edition, the hardware will drop to $3800. I just have one question, Tim. RE: Typhon. Could you, in a sentence or two, how it is I can sometimes (some presets) play 2 or 3 notes and hear them all sounding together as a chord….on a monosynth?

[@stephenmurphywilson7294]

I saw the price of the Moog One and smiled at the thought of people willing to pay the price of a car. People pay to chase ghosts; buying what they couldn't afford back in the day be it a Prophet 5 that they lusted after on TOTP or whatever. I'm so grateful for Arturia's VSTs and Berhinger's desktop homages / rip-offs / whatever. My first synth was a Prodigy which I bought in 1980. I went back to the shop about four years later as a skint student and saw a Moog Source, A Liberation and a dead Polymoog. The guy offered me the Source for £100 which I didn't really have. I often think about that, but never consider shelling out the current asking price. That's my ghost.

[@shitmandood]

I think most people who buy things they couldn't afford in the past will usually buy a used version or the Berhinger types when they can afford it, even years later?

[@philipd2252]

Don't think about it. I had the juno's, jupiter,101,303,606,dx7,........ that would be worth something today but have no regrets not having them anymore. If I kept all those, I would be an investor and not musician. Find DM12 to be a very satisfying replacement for the 106 I once owned, the price is just a bonus. Don't like paying for bragging rights unless it is backed-up by some serious advantage over the competition.

[@shitmandood]

@@philipd2252 A lot of the old stuff I did have rusted out and broke over the years. I had a Carvin X100B Preamp and a Digitech Multi-effects rack unit back in the late 80s. By the time the late 90s rolled around, the Carvin rusted out, it had some water spilled on it one time. They eventually just quit working one day. However my 25 year old Tascam 4-track cassette and 20-year old Fostex hdd 8-track recorder are still operational.

[@iqi616]

@@shitmandood I'm about to put a fresh pinch roller in my Tascam 244. It's on its third set of drive belts.

[@A-Grat-A]

VSTs cannot replace immediacy of analog. Behringer is good bang for buck, but not over it, as their build & implementation quality still remains low.

[@ericMT]

It’s interesting that the Behringer 140x2 case costs about £300. We all know they could sell it for much less if they wanted to but they priced it just below the other cases and made it a bit larger and unless we make our own cases and power supplies, it’s just what we have to pay. Eurorack is not cheap but it’s the best way to make a synth exactly how you want it and different from any other out there. A Minimoog is great but they are all about the same. And if you think about it, £300 isn’t that much when some 14HP single modules cost more than that. Multiply that by dozens of modules and you’ve got quite a lot invested in a small modular system. But to me it’s worth it for what it’s capable of.

[@TheGuitaristChannel]

Just bought a brand new Sequential Prophet 6 for £2,300 and the pots are awful. Worst I’ve ever seen! Better on a £20 Behringer fx pedal. What’s your experience with this Tim? Thanks

[@Mtaalas]

I want to point out that one can't just use inflation calculator to approximate what the value of something from the 80's would be today... you need also to adjust it according to mean income at the time. Back in the 80's people made less money as well. So let's imagine for arguments sake that something cost 1000$ in the 80's and peoples median income was let's say 1000$/month... if that price would be 4000$ in today's money, but we have median income of let's say 2500$/month: it gives one much better picture of what things really cost back in the day. I'm not disagreeing with you as such, just wanted to point this out :)

[@Ghost-i5i]

in america back in the 80s real wages were actually higher

[@bluename4]

how much are feelings worth? how much are minds worth? what is pricing worth? what is valuing worth?

[@KarateWerewolf]

Great video as always. In the realm of analog Polly's, I think people are going to complain a lot more when it gets over 3000$, regardless of it's capabilities. Partly because it starts becoming inaccessible to them. Totally agree on needing more completion, the only other recent synth I could think of was the UDO Super 6 and the Arturia Poly Brute, which I find was reasonably priced.

[@franciscocornejo2932]

Hola son tan buenos sus videos podría incluir subtitulos en español

[@emdotambient]

The other thing you need to look at when trying to access why manufacturers charge what they do is (especially in the case of something as complex as the Moog One) is the R&D cost. It had to have been the labor of years for multiple people to bring something like the Moog One to market. And the other thing is, how many units are they actually going to sell? Boutique products like Eurorack modules generally sell very few units. There aren't a lot of these manufacturers making huge profits off their gear. Small runs of complex products are inevitably going to cost more than mass-manufactured products the likes of which Behringer produces. I'm not saying one is better than the other but the economics of both business models are vastly different.

[@edenhunter9904]

Spot on Tim. The hysteria surrounding the release of the reissue Prophets is another example of the memory being better than the reality. A MONO output synth in 2020? Really? Give me a Prophet 6 any day of the week. On another matter. I'm seriously considering the Moog One but I live in a very remote location and am worried that it might still be a tad underdeveloped and unreliable for my circumstances. Thoughts? Cheers, Eden

[@davemaverick8438]

Nothing wrong with mono, synths are mono by design except few cases with panning option for oscillators Much better to have dry mono synth than stick some lame effects and shift the prices cause its stereo

[@mastermachetier5594]

Curious how this would change if you included desktop modules

[@larsuk9578]

You can’t really compare Dave Smith with the likes of Korg as they don’t have the same economies of scales I think. I’m curious however as to why the Prophet 5 rev 4 is £1000 more than a Prophet 6... surely they must have a lot in common...

[@overload8741]

Great video, missed this one, thank's to behringer to share it, absolutly facts, you say the truth. “Competition is a really healthy thing. We need as as much competition as possible in the synth market. We really should be encouraging manufacturers to start making affordable synths. It’s the only way to ensure people get good value for money”. I absolutly say same to friends, and is why i encourage behringer for that. Becose this way hardware going to totaly disapears one day, in our generation younger peoples learn how to instal crack plugins, make music totaly without to invest 1 cents (except the computer), lots of peoples will like to buy some hardware synth but they can't afford it to becose they are to expensiv, just look at the new Prophet 5 3.5k€ Prophet 10 4.3k€ you got no FX no stereo out for a high price, maybe a quality build, great looking synth, authentique like the original, but that can't be afford by an etudiant, someone who have small kids etc, becose i speak with peoples like that is not a exemple is real! But now behringers make affordable analog synth, i speak more and more with young peoples interested about hardware synth and that's great. Im realy impatient to see the new Polyphonic analog synth from behringer, becose they are the most wanted type of synth that will make maybe hardware synth back into the game, 80's music is come to be new tendance with modern artist, The Weeknd, Lady Gaga etc... I think peoples will realy enjoy if they keep the price low, and the hype behind all that new stuff at a affordable price going to make others guy's thinking why not to try even if before they are not realy interested by hardware synth. I hope my english will be understood is not my native langage. Great talking im going to share that 💯🤝

[@MUNRO13]

I spoke to Decksaver about making some products for synths they don’t do yet, they said that creating the mould piece is an expensive procedure so they only do synths they think they’ll sell a lot of them for.

[@eikarumba429]

Jevon’s Paradox is at play, as many other viewers pointed out. Supply and demand, the often forgotten (by consumers) fixed costs of R&D, product designing, development, manufacturing setup for tooling, supply chain for distribution, etc, etc needs to be recovered in order for a company to turn a profit on a particular product. More products sold means those fixed costs amortise/divide out across a larger base of products, add to that similar economy of scale impacts of selling more product on materials and per unit variable costs and that all adds up to a lower per product cost to manufacture and sell - hence companies like Roland, Yamaha and even more so Beheringer have much more leeway to either manufacture and sell at a lower cost than smaller companies or chose to make more profit per unit. But that’s a generalisation and there are ways to compete on price even if you are a boutique manufacturer. - let’s also not forget that there is still human labour involved and unless you’re based somewhere still in the dark ages (no minimum wage) the people involved still need to be paid - you’re not just paying for a “cheap” piece of plastic.

[@BillVincent]

Thanks Tim, for a great perspective! I want to state that I don't own a Moog One - and although I am sure it is a great synth, the tuning issues coupled with the price keep me from ever entertaining the idea of buying one. I laughed out loud, literally, when I saw the Moog One introduced at @ $9K for the 16 voice. Analog technology, which after almost 60 years Moog still can't seem to tame in terms of tuning issues, and basically a one-trick pony - subtractive synthesis, dressed up with digital controls and effects. That is a LOT of money to spend on a synth, especially a synth that doesn't really break a whole lot of new ground sonically. If you have a niche need for a monster analog synth that, when stable, peels paint off the walls, then fine. But for me, it just doesn't seem like the price, while probably justified parts-wise and R&D-wise, is really something I'd want to pay for a synth that is still using (and still battling within itself) tech that is very old and not prone to staying in tune. The other big player in the rehashed analog space right now is DSI, and given the Prophet 5 history and such, there will always be a market for those synths, and the price has always been premium. My biggest problem with DSI synths is that I don't like the way they sound, but that's just my personal bias and nothing more. It seems that Oberheim is now going to get back into the analog game with Tom leading the charge, and personally if I'm going analog poly, that's where I'll put my money. I can't wait to see what they come up with, although the OB-6 didn't feel/sound to me like the old Oberheims - more like a DSI synth, and so I hope the new ones coming out of Tom's new company will be more like the old OB-8 or the 2, 4, or 8 voice synths. Fun time to be older and able to afford some of what I couldn't back when I was 18 and lusted after all of this stuff!

[@nisroch]

@16:13 It's not that we haven't found better or cheaper ways to manufacture synthesizers. It's more about the economics of scale. A mobile phone is produced in the millions so the costs are more spread out per unit and the profit margin is increased. Synthesizers don't sell in the millions so the cost per unit is increased to cover the R&D and manufacturing costs.

[@watchaddicts1213]

I’ll bid 4 cents on the plastic lid (Shipping included) On the Mantis, I’ll go ALL IN! $21.50 is my bid, open-ended offer!

[@JohnMcGFrance]

A product is worth what people pay for it. Some people are happy to pay £300 for a pair of trainers or £10,000 a watch. They do the same job as a £20 pair or a £10 watch. As long as people are paying the money why drop the price. I know my eurorack case/modules are pricey but I paid anyway. Looking back I think I’d probably not do I again and certainly won’t be adding to my current modular rig, but I might add something like the Behringer Crave. Now that is good value compared to modules. As for Moog, it depends. I bought the Dfam and love it even though it was overpriced somewhat. I couldn’t see any competition for it. The Mother 32 however has much cheaper competition so you are paying for the name really. But that’s up to individuals to decide. On a different note, just found your channel Tim and am really enjoying it. Thank you for making the content in such a professional and informative way. I particularly like the fact that reviews/tutorials etc actually sound musical. Not the dreadful sound effect bleeps an buzzes presented by many others. Loo ward to future videos.

[@rosscogiordano1796]

The realization Tim comes to by the end of the video reminds me of the end to "The Truman Show". It's like he broke the 4th wall and went into another world.

[@TheMachinesWon]

Why no mention of the Summit?

[@TimShoebridge]

It's not an analogue synth

[@TheMachinesWon]

@@TimShoebridge Gotcha, I thought you were mentioning hybrids...but I guess the DM isn’t a hybrid-had to look it up. Thanks

[@wowerman]

Thanks Tim.I would never pay £300 for that Euro Rack with plastic casing for £200 only.Soldering iron, kit and some DIY with timber or source ant type of casing with similar dimensions.PSU's are dirt cheap to buy online.Regarding synth I use now Novation midi controller sl49 MK2. I would like to replace it with same size synth.I like possibilities of Yamaha but creating a sound from scratch means diving into menu endlessly and most od Yamaha's do not have aftertouch. I like Hydrasynth but I am scared that it is more for people who want to go more or less FM synthesis and display does not give much info.

[@MikolaiStroinski]

Moog one CAN be compared to Polybrute

[@danstirling7386]

I’d considered getting the Polybrute but I realised how limiting 6 voices would be for the sort of work I do. It does look amazing but I wish they did a 10 voice version or more. I’ve since decided I’ll get a Moog One and spend less on other things in my studio. Although the tuning issues (and the tuning compensation issues) do worry me about the Moog.

[@eastvantony]

great video but how much was that sweater is what I want to know =)

[@TheObxpander]

Tim's sweaters are always A++ and on point. I'd subscribe to a weekly "Tim's Sweater Corner" or, since he's in the UK "Jumper Talk w/ Tim.

[@spaceman103]

15:30 Wikipedia states the Minimoog went for US $1,595.00 in 1974 and that would by the equivalent to $8,370 in 2020. Seems more like it in my perception….

[@jimharris6389]

The initial tooling and moulds for the TipTop case would cost many £thousands. They have to bake that into the cost along with expected sales. But yeah, it's expensive!

[@PacificIslandDrive]

I personally don’t get the ‘Moog One’. I’ve listened to countless videos, and high-quality demos of it on-line, and it just sounds muddy, and bland to me. For that matter, I’m not a big fan of vintage synths either (most of mine sit in the closet). I’ve always bought my synths based on what first strikes me musically (sound), and then specs, interface, and lastly price. I could care less if it has three-thousands OSC’s, a ‘joe blow’ filter, multi-colored LED’s, a massive touch-screen, is analogue, digital, virtual, hybrid, FM, granular, et al. It all comes down to sound for me, first and foremost! It’s not unlike guitars with more than six-strings... sure more strings gives a guitar a different sound, but is it really better than one with six strings? A REAL musician/composer/producer, buys musical instruments-equipment based on need, not based on rarity, price, or social-media hits. With that said, life is short, and independent songs/albums are extremely common (there are more songs than listeners today). My hat goes-off to anyone that can make a few bucks in the music business today. I guess if some people enjoy plucking around on a vintage synth, or a $6,500 Moog One, more power to them. :-)

[@Syntox]

Well said man.

[@bikegarrett]

Well said , boom ! Truth Bomb

[@lab-by-the-sea]

I played it, i liked the sound, it inspired me to make music. did i buy it - no, it was not the right price for me.am i angry that it is so high - no, they built something, made a decision about the price and i made one, we did not agree on the price.it is a market. if you do not agree, you have no deal.

[@Wagoo]

I'm with you. I wanted to love the Moog One, but the sound just rarely excites me. When it's not sounding fizzy and hollow I'm usually just thinking "I have other synths that can sound like this.." Where as something like The River always naturally manages to sound beautiful and creamy

[@Synthshop]

Same here, when the Moog One came out before it hit any stores around me, I heard almost nothing in any of the videos that struck me or inspired me to even think of spending even $2000 on it. I kept looking at the videos thinking I'm going to hear something incredible and inspiring, but just heard the same bland quality to the patches and many that were on the harsh side and certainly less inspiring than many analogs for far less $$$. At any rate I'm a big fan of Moog and wanted a poly moog sound. I ended up not buying the Moogone and instead bought 5 of the Moog Sirins when GC in Hollywood blew them out last Christmas. Now I can play chords in real time with that great Moog sound. And the Sirin sound is very inspiring and creamy. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that Moogone has, but it gets me there and is a very musical setup and 5 voices work for most of what I'm using it for. It gets me those chords in realltime. I saved thousands too. Which leads me to ask the same kind of questions/skepticism as Tom. Why can't Moog put 4 or 5 Sirins on one PCB and compete with Korg ?

[@PeruLover]

You should ask Dave how much it costs to produce. I'm Sure he'd be happy to answer you honestly.

[@donovanrebbechi3334]

low sales volume / niche market, means that marginal cost of producing an additional unit is not really the driver of costs. Cost to produce = fixed costs + marginal cost of production * quantity, and those fixed costs ( product design, marketing, some kind of minimal business footprint that includes bookkeeping, support and sales, etc) are probably dwarfing the per-unit marginal costs. So the thing that you're calling a "profit margin" here is probably to a large extent what is needed to cover the fixed costs. That might also explain why they do at some point drop the prices a bit (e.g. once they have their fixed cost back, they only need to worry about selling at more than their marginal cost)

[@bigdaddy4302]

You are such a down to earth, calm, cool guy...

[@SPL-6]

Andromeda was $2500 when it was released.

[@splitradix]

@@natebanks3110 Alesis went bankrupt after releasing the Andromeda.

[@paultuffy]

You should read children’s stories as a side gig!

[@inthedoghouse1985]

He has the voice

Computers or mobile phones are sold in insane quantities. The the R&D cost of a synth needs to be payed off by much smaller quantity. Also, most companies won't price their mid to high priced synths very competitively. Also, they price it accordingly to what a synth player expects a quality synth to cost.

[@final_mile_music9713]

As for plastic, you are missing the cost of tooling. Tooling for injection molding is very expensive. The cost is then amortized over the units produced, which for synthesizers is quite low compared to other consumer goods. The development and tooling for a synth is likely to be a few million dollars. And you might only ever sell a few thousand of them.

[@GavinKing_AKA_plumpNation]

Prologue in same class as the Rev 2 no? XD is a beautiful instrument. Sounds incredible. Prices, even for the plastic dust covers, are likely based on the low volume of sales compared to retooling a production line. I don't know. Guessing. Driving down of prices is one thing, but I'm worried about we want more for less, and who ends up with the shit end of the stick there? Is it the small manufacturers? Is it the factory workers in the countries of manufacture? Maybe.

[@augustamills5853]

25:20 ..but isn't Behringer making cheap synths??

[@mauchkimberly]

Interesting topic. I, like many others, reacted to the price of the Moog one with a feeling that it's quite expensive. Yet, when I looked at the Prophet 5/10 it doesn't seem as unreasonable. But when you put it into the perspective of oscillators that was pretty interesting, since it reveals that the Moog is cheaper using that consideration. Of course, people don't think about these instruments that way, unless they're comparing something from the same manufactorer. So they might make such a comparison about 2 different Prophets, but not a Moog and a Prophet. For me, the Moog one is too expensive simply because it IS too expensive (for me). But I do love it, and if it were willing to pay that much for the prophet I would be willing to save longer and buy the moog instead as I really love the sound (but they're both out of my price range). Where synth are concerned, these 2 models are comparable with motorcycles (here in the states). There are people who show up to Sturgus on their motorcycles, and they've got all sorts of great features that make them incredibly enjoyable for a long ride. And there are also people who show up on motorcycles that may or may not have all the features, but they're Harleys. These 2 models are the Harleys of synths.

[@Lainer1]

Don't forget the Roland JD-Xi which is multitimbral synth with tiny keys, with analog and digital with drum kits. I had the Moog Grandmother for a while, and loved it. But at the end if the day, I just want a synth with multi-timbral capabilities, the ability to tweak the sounds, and a playability factor. Eurorack/modular is fun, but I want to play songs via keyboard. Love Moog, but it is analog for the most part, (couldn't afford the Moog One, maybe the Matriarch, but not sure if it would be enough for me, because, I want more sounds from other synthesizer engines. (Love the Korg OP Six for its FM and Wavestate for its stacking of sounds, but keyboard is not big enough and I wonder if the Wavestate can do an actual song by itself. I had a Teenage Engineering OP-1, loved there size, the build. hated the speaker, the sounds were okay, but not enough for me to keep it. Great to start a sketch of a song, and but I want to play one synth and have many synth engines in it, without it being so dang confusing. Back in the 1980s I had the Juno 106, and the Roland D-50. Loved the D-50, but actually the Korg 01W/FD was more playable. I've read up on Nord, but on this side of the pond in USA, not too many in stores, where I live to try one. I am looking for one synth with a good keyboard like a Kurzweil, analog like a Moog, easy to tweak and be able to write a songs on it like Vangelis does in real time, but not so expensive or advanced. Yeah, I know. Nothing is out there besides maybe the Fairlight or Waldorf Quantum, or that fancy rig built in Europe I forgot the name of that is made by this one guy for thousand of dollars. I think this is why people just use the computer with a Arturia keyboard and buy VST sounds. But, I hate using the computer and hate computer music programs. I like to layer within the synth to create a song. I get so utterly confused by music programs as I am old school and had a Tuscan 4 track tape recording and a mixer. (The OP-1 has the digital tale which I loved, but younger people seem to hate. I grew up with old school gear that you had to play, nit compute. ) Anyway, that's my rant.

[@EnervatedSociety]

I went ahead and took apart a, currently, $3600.00 synth by a popular brand. I tracked down all the electronics/components and arrived at the conclusion that the actual synth (the innards of the keyboard) was entirely made in China and sells for about $300 (or less, timing) each if you're buying in bulk. The casing was made in the USA, the keybed is made in Italy (they're allowed to say that by law) but parts are sourced from Africa and China, and the instrument was assembled in the USA. That's is to say they screwed some things together and connected some wires before testing. Total cost is a few hundred dollars. I do not know what price they put on research and development, how much they pay their people, or how much they're charging for the brand name. Value for money. It's pretty subjective but the actual cost of the hardware isn't anything close to what they're charging.

[@dez1989]

What about a Poly Brute? It's a great synth at a higher mid price. I can say is It's worth it. Find one used! Worth the price and it's much cheaper used! Just a thought.

[@daniellllll]

Imo Dave Smith/Sequential synths are the best out there now. Other options are Novation Summit, now Arturia Polybrute, Korg Prologue. There are great digital and VA options like Roland System 8, Jup-X, UDO Super-6, Nord Lead too. Imo Behringer haven’t brought anything good to the table yet but also their quality has been sub par - and I’ve tested them (tested at least 6 of their synths on their own display). To this day I still wouldn’t go for Behringer. I’m glad there are multiple synth options nowadays though!

[@davebellamy4867]

Have you seen the "hyper" audience comments on some of the new P5 demos? You are spot on with this book reading, I think. By the way, Synthpunk brought me to your excellent channel. I love that vector synthesis thing you have just made, that is just such great use of limited resources.

[@fray3dendsofsanity]

Components are actually NOT the major expense. The oscillators and filters are going to be pricier than a digital synth, sure. But what makes Moog and Sequential so expensive is their R/D costs, and they are also assembled and manufactured in the United States locally. They are not built on cheap, exported labor which is admirable as they avoid exploitation that many other companies take advantage of. Also, the companies are both based in expensive areas in the US. Sequential, in particular, is headquartered in San Francisco, one of the most expensive cities in the world to run a business. The R/D salaries have to address the ridiculous cost of living there. I would say the hierarchy of cost of these synths is 1. R/D 2. Manufacturing 3. Components

[@mynameistechno]

Milling the mould for this pievce of plastic is expensive in the beginning. cnc model making is a on&off job, the machine is standing still. the rest, i dont know, i guess depends on the scope of an order + how accurate q/c will be.

[@gchristyer]

Your question will be answered when Behringer rolls out their poly synths 😁✌️👍🇬🇧🙏

[@FakeGlasses]

They're coming out along with Trump's taxes and health care plan. Any day now...

[@amusicians2cents]

Or 8 voice analog sound for 149EUR from U-He.

[@amusicians2cents]

... and DX7 sound for free with Dexed.

[@ptah23]

@@amusicians2cents not true analog though

[@amusicians2cents]

@@ptah23 That's true (that's not true :) ), but I mean more and more people are looking for sounding analog (and more people have not enough money to true analog hardware stuff) instead of 100% true analog sound by hardware, but I don't thing there is any problem with either approach, somebody loves/needs the true analog sound/feel.

[@thegreaterconundrum]

Love this video format Tim! Cool storybook intro and adding in some humor. Nice work.

[@FlyingLotus]

thanks but....how do you light your videos??? u got the best cinematography

[@_LSM]

And that is why Behringer is wiping the floor with the lot of them, luckily for many of us or we’d be priced out (while they would still have the same measly sales they have - some of the prices are simply obscene) but in time they will either have to sink or swim (and get their stuff together).

[@SoundmanCH]

Totally appreciate your thoughts: The Industrie obviously takes advantage of trends, hypes and demand of us consumers who drive the price. Personally I associate plastic with cheap, minor quality things and I usually don’t like it. I addition plastic really is monumental to representing today’s throwaway culture. As such, I love the reissue of the P5, made of solid wood and metal, living up to the original design and spirit of Dave’s legendary company. For me personally though, it does not represent enough value for the price Sequential is asking. I initially fell for the hype and ordered a P10, to shortly after ask myself the very same questions you are sharing here. This made me cancel my order. On the other hand, all these relatively cheap clones and reissues (made by other companies) somewhat destroy the nimbus of their vintage counterparts. It’s a bit of a dilemma, while I appreciate that I can buy and enjoy recreations of ultra rare, traditionally unaffordable and highly desirable instruments, all the sensation, nostalgic feelings and dreams about such an original seem to be gone.

[@melvinhawkins4567]

Your poor attempt at humor watering your eurorack plants wasn't too poor. It made me laugh 😂

[@georgeredpath5394]

The problem with euro cases is that they are built in small batches =expensive product. Add to the fact that not all power supplies are not made equal. R&D and design too. So it is a fair price considering they need profitability. Eurorack is the same thing. Small run , small team , high prices. It’s how it is until they can make most modules by the thousand vs the hundred.

[@katebovski6947]

You mentioned the Moog Model D why not the Behringer poly D it has a keyboard and is almost the same apart from price.

[@TimShoebridge]

Purely because it is not a polyphonic synth (despite its name)

[@katebovski6947]

@@TimShoebridge Neither is the Moog Model D that you mentioned @15:31 & it's price yet you missed the fact that the Polly(paraphonic) D is vary similar at a fraction of the price. Behringer also working on a prophet 600 cloneish with GliGli though it's likely to be a desktop box..

[@TimShoebridge]

@@katebovski6947 Ah sorry, now I understand. I have many people asking why I did not mention certain synths in the section relating to analogue polyphonic synths. When I mentioned the Minimoog, it was in relation to a vintage synth from 40 years ago and comparing it to prices of other tech from that era. As for modern equivalents it made sense to me to mention a genuine Moog reissue and not a clone, but yes Behringer are shaking up the synth market for sure.

[@squoblat]

Was this the warm up for the "Tim Shoebridge reads kid's books" series...

[@theuncertaintyprinciple]

Interesting video as usual. Difficult to compare some items but think you made some fair assessments. Have to admit it has crossed my mind that i should sell all the bits of kit that I've collected over several years, don't use, and get a Moog one...... With regards to Eurorack whether it be cases or modules its a very expensive area of synthesis when the bug bites..... which whilst it will never make a Moog look good value for money at £8K unfortunately doesn't really make it look expensive either. Ultimately its all down to economies of scale and number of sales. That said, some synth names always carry a premium.