Vampire Survivors Only Works Because We're Stupid

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You are terrible at maths. Sorry, someone had to say it. However, it's not all bad news - so is every other human being ever to live! You're ALL awful when it comes to numbers! Whilst you don't always realize it, humans have an incredibly flawed understanding of everything from size to statistics, changing the way we perceive and think about numbers, particularly in videogames - but does this make them better or worse?
After clearing out a few suspiciously similar milk factories and plumbing the darkest depths of the human psyche, The Architect has determined that although the brain might be flawed, it's these flaws that can lead to some very fun game design, and no game knows this better than Vampire Survivors.
You Saw:
Vampire Survivors - 2022
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Pentiment - 2022
Magic Survival
Power Wash Sim - 2022
Undertale - 2015
Persona 5: Royale - 2019
The Stanley Parable Ultra Deluxe - 2022
Signalis - 2022
Super Mario Bros Movie - Not Out Yet
Super Mario Bros. - 1993
Psychonauts
Minecraft
Super Mario 3D World
Pinball FX 3
Pokémon Pinball: Ruby & Sapphire
Wonderputt Forever
Hitman: World of Assasination - 2023
Disgaea - 2003
Borderlands 2 - 2012
Disgaea 5: Alliance of Vengeance - 2015
Xenoblade 3 - 2022
Diablo 3 - 2012
Clicker Heroes - 2015
Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn - 2014
World of Warcraft - 2022
New Super Mario Bros Wii U - 2012
Superliminal - 2019
Portal 2 - 2011
THe Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild - 20017
Marvel's Midnight Suns - 2013
Pikmin - 2004
Super Metroid - 1994
Pizza Tower - 2023
Counter Strike: Global Offensive - 2012
Sonic Generations - 2011
Space Warlord Organ Trading Simulator - 2021
Descenders - 2018
Satisfactory - Early Access
Resident Evil 2 Remake - 2019
Resident Evil 4 - 2005
Adventure Capitalist - 2014
Frog Fractions 3 - 2020
Destiny 2 - 2017
The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim - 2011
Fallout: New Vegas - 2013
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door - 2004
Bug Fables - 2019
Bioshock Infinite - 2013
Slice and Dice - 2021
Family Fortunes Wii U - 2013
Monster Hunter World - 2018
Pokemon Scarlet - 2023
Pokemon Black 2 - 2012
Baldur's Gate 3- Early Access
XCOM: Enemy Unknown - 2012
XCOM 2 - 2016
Spelunky 2 - 2020
Super Smash Bros Ultimate - 2018
Sid Meirs Civilization 6 - 2016
Dota 2 - 2013
Genshin Impact - 2020
Konami's Castlevania: Grimoire Of Souls - 2021
Runescape - 2004
Ni no Kuni: Cross Worlds - 2022
Diablo Immortal - 2021
Terraria - 2011
Super Smash Bros Brawl - 2008
The Last of Us 2 - 2020
Luck Be A Landlord - 2023
Deus Ex Mankind Divided - 2016
Passpatout: The Starving Artist - 2017
Lootbox Simulator - 2018
Hi-Fi Rush - 2023

[@ArchitectofGames]

What is a man? A miserable little pile of potential patreon donations! But enough talk... Have at you!: www.patreon.com/ArchitectofGames If you're a sexy twilight style vampire and would like to slide into my DMs please come in, if you're a spooky Nosferatu style vampire thank you for your offer but I must decline at this time: twitter.com/Thefearalcarrot

[@lordereney]

An interesting tidbit: The developer of VS is actually an ex developer of slot machines or something in that direction, I just remember he worked in gambling and used that experience to make VS.

[@denislamesch8155]

Not saying you are wrong, buuuuut I think there is another reason why people like games like vampire surviver. Let's call it the flappy birds effect. In these games, your actuel imputs are very limited and most things and progression in particular is automatized. That way, the game requires very little mental capacity and you easily enter into a flow. To prove my point, imagine vampire survivers required you to manualy trigger a new wave every minute. Or imagine you hade limited ammo for your weapons. That would enter to mutch complexity and disturbe your flow. Tldr, simple game good sometimes, me right, you wrong.

[@ietsbram]

NUMBER GO UUUPPPP!!!!!! BIGGER NUMBER IS BETTER!! BIGGER NUMBER GETTING BIGGER FASTER AND FASTER IS :0 :0 :0 :0

[@alalalal5952]

@@denislamesch8155 i agree with you my man, but Adam Millard is so wrong i cant dicide wither he is clickbaiting or saying stupid thing now out of sudden from lack of understanding.

[@zannall2699]

the difference is that one game doesnt use gambling to make you spend money and others do. and vampire survivors have in game mechanics to move rng in your favor such as banishing and skipping which you never talk about and is towards stratagey and not unga bunga rng. and you never talked about experimental probability vs theoretical probability which puts xcom in the dirt. xcom on hard mode will say 100% chance to hit and you do not hit 100% of the time thus making what the game says false and you would need to start collecting your own data (experimental probability) to find what the true % chance is. you never hitting these points in your video made me very unsatisfied with your lack of research. i respected you, now unsubbed.

[@SamButler22]

It should be worth noting that the developer, Luca Galante, was previously a programmer for gambling machines and learned at lot of this from that industry

[@koffing2073]

haha now I understand

[@cryptorcd9352]

I kept thinking during the video I wonder if the main dev had something to do with the gambling since he perfectly added all of these intricate systems. Good to know lol

[@too_kid2181]

yea... and?

[@GoodmansGhost]

@@too_kid2181 And that's why it's so perfectly tuned to engage you.

[@axew3127]

Oh… that explains a lot 😂

[@thatdanjamesguy.330]

I’m a weirdo who turns off enemy damage numbers in Castlevania games so today I learned I’m not human. Wait … does that mean I was the vampire survivor all along?

[@TechNinjaSigma]

@@Bone_guy correct

[@devforfun5618]

@@Bone_guy yup, most of those tricks are totally wortless for me, i find for example yugi-oh numbers boring, wish pokemon tcg divided everything by 10, and like the basic mtg card being 1/1 the only one that works is killing the hordes in the end, and only because the hordes means death early in the game, if it was something like dynasty warriors were the entire game consists of hordes of enemies it wouldn't make a difference, the fun for me is trying different builds and using the cards to turn useless items into amazing items, like the ricochet on the axes

[@MeatyZeeg]

I turn off the numbers, they mean nothing and I find them annoying

[@fartloudYT]

In 'number crafting' intensive games turning on certain numbers makes a lot of sense, mostly when you are theorycrafting, but has no use afterwards. Often having chunky healthbars is more fun to have. However, in endless gear treadmill games it can have a very different effect. Why even bother opening inventory to equip slightly better gear, if you can do that one hour later and equip the best variant out of 20 items? And even if you do the change in the 'actual gameplay' is so hard to notice that if you did not get those 20 items at all, nothing would have changed either. Overblown Numbers is just a symptom of game design flaws.

[@NeiZaMo]

Luck be a landlord is almost unplayable without turning off all animations.

[@vizthex]

EDIT 2: seems everyone ignored my first edit, but I know it's on mobile so please stop telling me - and I now own it on Steam and have played it for about a dozen hours now. It's noice. never played Vampire Survivors, but i think the fact that it's a paid game rather than one that constantly begs you to spend money makes a massive difference. playtime isn't profitable unless you monetize it. EDIT: Ok, i know it's on mobile! Stop telling me lmao.

[@harrysyodihermawan2739]

its free on mobile

[@harrysyodihermawan2739]

but the only thing we need to play this time is DLC, no ads whatsoever, but if you want to revive you can watch an ads or just be dead, also with doubleing gold you get, you can watch ads to add more or not

[@Garresh1]

This is why Diablo 2 is considered a classic(and it is) despite being basically a playtime based gacha game. And Deeprock Galactic does that with their hidden cosmetics crates you can find in missions, and matrix cores. But all of these great games don't charge you a dime for it. You buy the game and enjoy it as you see fit. Plus both these games allow modding and stuff. Exploiting our psyche for fun is fine as long as you're not using it to extract money from people.

[@vizthex]

@@Garresh1 *exactly.* i have over 1,000 hours in DRG for that exact reason lmao

[@abra_escaped]

That and on the mobile version, it's free and there's no involuntary ads. Only ads it has are ones you choose to watch to get an extra revive or increase the coins you get at the end of the run

[@HolyDeviant1]

As an aside early on in the video: the original reason many arcade games had a 'perfunctory' 0 in the score is because using a continue would give you a single point, marking the score. So if you saw on the high score chart that the top score had, say, a 7 in the ones place, you know that fella continued seven times - or maybe even seventeen, or more!

[@Gloomdrake]

So if you died and continued 100 times, no one would be the wiser

[@Kyrmana]

Neat!

[@alalalal5952]

great information, thankyou for sharing with yonger generation!

[@robologo]

@@alalalal5952 Do you mean you are confirming that this is true?

[@Rpodnee]

So continuing 10 times was impossible to discern?

[@monkeeee]

Vampire Survivors activates our chimp neurons

[@PdroxCbon]

Username checks out.

[@monsterhunterayame4941]

@@PdroxCbon I literally came here to say this.

[@collabrec]

It has just the right amount of flashing lights and rewards to be super addictive

[@Subarashii_Nem]

A number on screen go up = Brain makes the happy.

[@directorsclubpodcast8652]

Chimps evolved in casinos? Because that's 90% of the positive reinforcement in the game - the swirling colors, flashing lights, catchy music & sounds, and what I think is the real hook of the game: how the game is in constant motion until you level or open a chest, and especially in the latter how you cannot speed up the reveal. Even that little half-second between the chest theme stopping and the item getting revealed is perfectly timed to hype up our anticipation.

[@justsomejojo]

The part about timers is so ingrained in my brain because as a teenager, I played a lot of Sonic Adventure 2 Battle. In one part of the story, you're hit with a 10 minute bomb countdown separate from the usual timer that determines your score. I always haaaaated that level as a kid because I got so unreasonably anxious I had to give the controller to my younger brother. UNTIL I realized, hey, I *never* take 10+ minutes for a speed stage, at which point the anxiety completely vanished. The game had just tricked me (for years) into an irrational response just by making the timer more visible (it's big orange flashing numbers) and ticking down instead of up. I never paid attention to the regular timer, but that red one ticking down? Scariest thing in the game (except for the drowning music)

[@tafu4049]

I mean, there are 2 bombs, one in the speed stage, that's 8 minutes, and the other that's 5 minutes, which is an emerald hunt stage.

[@TheFakeMakotoYuki]

@@tafu4049 I hate that stage so much man it took me way to many tries to get the emeralds

[@bob8mybobbob]

Whenever there’s a big block of text in a video I pause the video to read it and then fast forward through the time that was put in to let viewers read. Because otherwise I’m so freaked out about reading everything on a timer that I don’t comprehend what I’m reading.

[@vampirecheetah]

This reminds me of my high school chemistry class. The teacher always made asignments worth 100.00 points, and it always freaked out the students because all the other teachers made asignments 10 points. It took a few weeks into the school year to realize he was just tacking on extra zeros that served no purpose other than to place more weight on doing your homework. It's interesting to think about that now.

[@goldenhate6649]

I remember in my highschool sometimes teachers wouldn't reveal that a project would fall under a different percentage (ie lower weight) than the other work until after to get students to actual do it.

[@obsidianflight2758]

@@goldenhate6649 this is why online school is way better, mine has a page that just upright tells you what grade you have, how many points you need, how many points each assignment gives, so you can go and calculate how well you need to do on a test to get your grade to say, a B if it was a C

[@saoirsedeltufo7436]

What did those points mean?

[@insaincaldo]

@@obsidianflight2758 Though that also means you can do the calculated bare minimum for whatever desired grade.

[@Sorain1]

@@insaincaldo I don't see that as a drawback, if a student isn't going to work to go above (say) a B, then letting them run the calculations themselves and make informed decisions on what assignments they choose to not do seems like an improvement. Mind, there is some wisdom to warning students that it may be wise to simply work through everything until they hit their desired grade, so as to avoid potentially failing to meet that goal due to outside circumstances disruption their plan.

[@matteoperilli2870]

Japanese games tend to have huge number for another reason yet (that's my theory at least): in most western countries you can buy things with 1-2-5 etc euros/dollars but the Yen is commonly used in bills and coins ranging from 50 yen to 50.000, it's just how they are used to use numbers in their daily lives! That's what I think informed the decision to have Magic cards have numbers rarely over 10 while Yu Gi Ho monsters deal damage in the thousands.

[@ArchitectofGames]

I never considered this! That makes so much sense!

[@cattysplat]

@@ArchitectofGames Average UK salary: £27,756 Average Japan salary: 4,530,000 Yen 👀

[@meneldal]

Not sure if it's really the reason in that case, but it explains the prices in like pokemon where everything seems quite expensive if you think the currency is pounds or dollars. Yu-Gi-Oh being a manga first is also a likely factor. Another example could be mahjong where the values are quite inflated compared to like poker (and the lowest hands are still a few hundreds).

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

I feel like they're used to seeing and parsing those large numbers.

[@MVAS-mp9oo]

attacking morbillion times with +3000 ATK Frightfur Wolf always has been satisfactory.

[@nellkellino-miller7673]

I never paid attention to the numbers. Still found it addictive. I think its just the sheer spectacle of seeing my little guy turn into a monster blender in 30 minutes.

[@maximeteppe7627]

Yes, also the gime only clicked for me when I started to manage weapon evolutions, unlocking transformations of the way my character works makes the numerical progression feel worthwhile. Also the reason skyrim works (for the most part) despite the scaling enemies : the perks system allows new gameplay possibilities that make the experience of playing qualititatively different, even if the challenges you face remain static.

[@iampliny]

Vampire Survivors is like popping digital bubble wrap for 30 minutes.

[@directorsclubpodcast8652]

That's EXACTLY what sound plays when you pick up a gem! Good catch!

[@sass2836]

Yes! That's how described it to a friend the other day. Bubble wrap in game form!

[@bodkie]

Comparable in price, too.

[@Yoanka]

But then it never ends after 30 minutes, there's always "just one more run".

[@side-beeetaloniswolfwolfac4179]

@@bodkie Except real bubble wrap is one use... so this game is more economical!

[@lobsterboy2020]

The difference is Vampire Survivors costs a couple of clams for endless enjoyment, and Diablo tries to make you destitute every seventeen seconds.

[@ranninotfromeldenring2832]

as a genshin player, genshin is like 70% diablo and like 30% vampire

[@ranninotfromeldenring2832]

@@MustacheMerlin as a genshin victim, i can confirm they are holding me in their basement

[@WanderTheNomad]

@@ranninotfromeldenring2832 why are you here typing a comment instead of making them more money? 🤨

[@ranninotfromeldenring2832]

@@WanderTheNomad shit my bad better get back to work swiping

[@naf8787]

@ranninotfromeldenring2832 sad

[@WayFinder42]

I feel this is really overselling the numbers part, and really ignoring the satisfaction of the variation of items, as well as all the unlocks and secrets. I don't keep playing Vampire Survivors because the numbers (which I sometimes even turn off because you literally can't see anything after a while), but because it is satisfying to upgrade the items and unlock more characters and secrets. Just the the desire to complete the collection and unlock Sigma alone is really enticing.

[@Fixti0n]

Exploiting our monke brain in videogames is like using a knife. If you use the knife to make me a nice meal, its a good thing, but if you use the same knife to rob me, its a bad thing. Just like this, exploitive designs are the same, if you are using my monke brain to let me have a more entertaining game, its a good thing, but if you use the same exploit to make me buy 1000 loot boxes, then its a bad thing.

[@LegoDork]

Gimme a super cashword and a win 4 life. What number's regular cashword on? ... Give me eight of those too.

[@Daniel-yy3ty]

my monke brain read the last sentence as "using my monke brain to let me have monke entertainment" thank you for exploiting my monke brain and making me laugh

[@helplmchoking]

Yes! If you want to trick my monke brain so I feel like a genius player cutting a path of doom through hordes of demons with my magic fireballs of pure dopamine, go right ahead! I'm so on board! That's basically how action movies work, anyway. That's just GIVING me a great experience, and it's what makes the very best games great. If you want to trick my brain into handing over my credit card, that's exploiting me to TAKE something away from me. That's how you get sad old people feeding a dollar at a time into slot machines, and it's literally how drug dealing functions

[@CiromBreeze]

What if you use the knife as a projectile in the direction that you're walking and eventually merge it with a glove to create an endless stream of knives

[@Juliana-qe2th]

gacha game defenders: "it's your fault you handed over your money at knifepoint"

[@bean835]

I feel like the difference between a manipulative game or ethical one is if the manipulative game uses manipulation to give it more money

[@astrixkz]

ooh good point

[@QuantumHistorian]

But they all do. Even without micro transactions or the like, a game that "manipulates" you into liking it means that you will recommend it more to friends, are more likely to buy DLC and/or sequels; this all translates to selling more copies meaning more money. But a game without "manipulation" that tries to get you to like it through "honest" means is also trying to get more money in exactly the same way.

[@SeanCMonahan]

@@QuantumHistorian I see where you're coming from; however, with a fixed, up-front price, paying once to experience a game feels fundamentally less manipulative than the lie that """free-to-play""" games sell themselves on.

[@freelancerthe2561]

You can have an ethical game that manipulates players into giving it more money.... thats the entire basis of DLC. The whole ethics discussion is both tangled into, and largely hamstrung by, our abysmal ability in understanding and determining value. If you place it in parallel to the context of emotional value of art and story, particularly with passively observed entertainment like TV/Movies, there is hugely unspoken, objectively quantifiable standard for "earning" an emotional pay of, verses simply cashing one in. As one of the biggest gripes about modern story telling, is that the creators expect huge pay offs, but do little to invest in the set up. This is also why a lot of meta humor now sucks; because its trying to cash in on a pension of decades of genre history, but never did, nor intended to, do anything to contribute to it. For example. Satire twists the premise, in order to expose an idea along a new view point, and enabling the audience to understand something on a more functional, mechanical level. So an idea that once seem perfectly normal in the context of daily life, is revealed to have always been absurd by expanding the frame of reference. IE: Someone spying on you all year, and then breaking into your house to stash good of questionable origin is totally ok, just as long as the guy is wearing a red suit. btw..... Love death and robots "What Santa really is". Absolutely brilliant.

[@doommaker4000]

@@QuantumHistorian Remind me again, what is the price of this game?

[@majorjohnson8001]

12:00 - also, the pentagram has a base 10% chance not to destroy items, not a 0%. Luck is also pretty strong with it, as it takes the uniform random value and *divides* it by your luck stat, so at max level with a 65% chance not to destroy items, having 154% luck (only 54% more than baseline) is more than sufficient to never destroy items.

[@WilliamSyler]

I would argue that Vampire Survivors does something very interesting that makes its simple gameplay more complex: because all you control is your movement, that means that your offense, defense, and growth are all tied to the decision of where your character goes and how they get there. This makes something as simple as movement feel like a puzzle to solve and very satisfying when you execute a plan both avoid the foe and pick up that pile of experience gems behind them. Combine that with the casino-like progression and I think you get something satisfying that makes sense to buy and enjoy.

[@freelancerthe2561]

But thats still part of the same power curve trick. And remember.... those decisions are governed by sense of probability; which the game fiddles with. Its not really more complex, its just more macro in its strategy.

[@omicron1100]

There's another element of this that I almost never see people talking about, which is the weapon-arcane-item synergies and upgrade mechanics. One of the most fun aspects of the game is deciding what items to use with which weapons to achieve a specific kind of build. It's not just that you get to upgrade your weapon to do a higher number of damage. You choose specific items to affect each of your weapons in different ways that can be seen almost immediately. It's a deck builder but with more moment-to-moment gameplay.

[@aliar86]

Reach

[@cattysplat]

- Destroys everything on screen automatically. Gamer brain: I did that.

[@Thatonedude917]

@@cattysplat This boils down why I hate Vampire Survivors

[@MellyMellouange]

17:00 the lack of microtransactons and monetization through loot boxes is a pretty big factor in the ethics, I would say it's one thing if the game design is, in some ways, inherently manipulative. it's another when that manipulation is used to extort money out of consumers.

[@KLIXORthe]

I actually really liked vampire survivors for the gameplay depth it achieved with such simplistic controls. It's basically all positioning and kiting, but how you do that changes a lot based on the attacks you have and the subtle differences in enemy spawns/behaviors. Circling back to pick up xp while also being incentivized to explore the area is also a really fun balance. The game doesn't get enough credit for what makes it unique and elegant in its design. Deriding it as simple is like complaining that burgers are too easy to eat.

[@Ds-xz3hc]

Sure, “Vampire Survivors” is fun and all, but I don’t think it deserves special credit for using mechanics we’ve seen in so many games before. It’s the same basic loop of positioning, dodging, and grabbing XP that’s been done thousands of times. The real reason the game hooks people is just because it taps into that primal part of our brain that loves simple, satisfying actions. It’s fun, but let’s not act like it’s some groundbreaking or even noteworthy design.

[@KLIXORthe]

​@@Ds-xz3hc "VS actually copied moving around and collecting stuff from other games, and its only fun because fun things are fun. So actually there's no way it could have done anything unique." Are you actually braindead?

[@Aldenfenris]

​@@Ds-xz3hcthat is like saying any modern game doesn't deserve credit because it builds on ideas from other ganes before. That's such a weird take to do, it deserves credit for taking the ideas and tuning and tweaking them for the game they wanted to make. Don't think anyone looks at a new Mario 2d game and goes "wow, look at how original and innovative this is, they give it credit for what they do with the ideas

[@Ds-xz3hc]

@@Aldenfenris I get what you’re saying, but comparing Vampire Survivors to Mario doesn’t really work. Nintendo genuinely tries to innovate with every Mario game, even if it’s just small changes. Vampire Survivors, on the other hand, feels like it’s just hitting that addictive loop without adding anything fresh. It’s like a slot machine-you pull the lever, watch the lights, and get a hit of dopamine. But no one’s out here calling slot machine design ‘great game design.’

[@Aldenfenris]

@@Ds-xz3hc I never said it was great design? just well implemented and in a fun way?

[@vanderkarl3927]

That's funny. I turn off the damage numbers to eke out a tiny bit more performance from my almost 10-year old PC. Yet, I've 100%ed Vampire Survivors repeatedly as it was in development.

[@lue64]

the grandma's computer experience

[@seighartmercury]

That's because you still see the hoards of enemies you're mowing more effectively than a weedwacker

[@MichaelRenner]

Might as well be that Adam completely missed the mark on what made VS so appealing in the first place. Damage numbers are a miniscule factor in the bigger picture.

[@theapexsurvivor9538]

I mean, Magic Survival is perfectly satisfying on its own, and doesn't have the damage numbers. Adam is exclusively talking about what makes VS more satisfying than MS, beyond adding loot boxes and more colours.

[@vanderkarl3927]

@@theapexsurvivor9538 That being the case, what got me interested in Vampire Survivors were really the meta-progression and the optimization. By eking out a tad more dps here, a little more exp there, you can make a huge difference in whether you make it to 30 minutes or beyond, and there are a fair few mysterious things that were fun to discover.

[@twilightvulpine]

In my view the line is pretty easy to draw. The line is charging money for the trickery. When Vampire Survivors or Borderlands or classic Diablo entices you with pseudo-random loot that is part of the experience with no negative consequences, but when a gacha game does it, you are being charged real money for a fictional contrivance, which is different than charging people for the real package of artistic and ludic content.

[@SMorales851]

Yeah, this makes total sense. "Manipulation" implies maliciousness, which is the case when a faceless corporation that sees you as nothing but a wallet is trying to get some money out of you. The difference between manipulation and artistic communication is intention: the manipulator sees you as an object and is trying to get something out of you, while the artist usually thinks that something is cool or interesting and wants to share the experience with you.

[@OrcaPlushie]

Completely agree with this. As someone who has played damn near every major gacha game thoroughly and spent quite a few bucks on a select few(Namely Genshin, Azur Lane, and Arknights), the tactics these companies use extend down to the core design choices of gameplay and visual design. These companies use underhanded tactics to make us spend as much money as possible. HOWEVER, I feel that as an adult who has control of my money, I make a choice understanding that I am essentially "wasting" my money and I cannot blame the devs for taking advantage of this fact. Anyone who complains about Genshin's "shady" tactics has either Never played the game properly, or can't control their impulsiveness. I dropped over 1000 hours into Genshin before I touched the shop and my profile was among the top 1% in characters and completion. I was personally one of the only people that reached 100% achievement completion before the huge 2.0 update without spending a dime. The game actually got less fun when I finally spent money, the slow grind and decision making on which character I wanted more was so exciting, and instead I now I have everything and it feels empty. This sentiment extends to all gachas I have played. These are mainly and mostly singleplayer games and picking and choosing your favorite characters and working towards getting them is the core enjoyment in my opinion. Regardless, the only devs we need to worry about are the ones targeting children. This, in my eyes, is scum behavior beyond anything else. The argument that parents need to teach their kids properly is valid in certain ways, but no parent is perfect and can understand and protect against all these scams. An adult SHOULD have self control, but a child rarely CAN.

[@lightworker2956]

Yeah, agree. Pay once and trickery is used to enhance the fun = fine. Gacha and trickery is used to repeatedly get more money out of people = not fine.

[@twilightvulpine]

@@OrcaPlushie I agree that adults should be allowed to make unwise spending decisions and the biggest issue is in allowing children engage with it. But before making excuses that these games can be technically played for free and blaming whoever overspends you need to acknowledge that the whole reason this monetization model exists and games like this keep going is to lure people with predisposition to compulsive spending. The game is like this for them, not for you. Free players are only tolerated on the hope that habitual playing and the sunk cost fallacy will get them paying. Which is why every single one of them slowly ramps up the numbers until only the most obssessive players can keep up.

[@OrcaPlushie]

@@twilightvulpine A fair point. To design based on the mentally unhealthy is a vile tactic. I think these games should be forced to give quick access to addiction hotlines and other such resources so that these people know they can find help should they so choose. Addiction is a major issue even I have struggled with(Luckily didn't have money to fuel it back then) and should be taken more seriously. However, most people who play gachas are not easily susceptible to psychological addiction to a level of cleaning their bank accounts, and to put that blame on the companies is the same excuse to why they aren't in top shape or don't have their dream job. The self control starts and ends with us.

[@ShankMugen]

I did not realise that "Game Makes Number Go Up" being the addictive part was not commonly known This reason is how all of the "Idle Games" are played by people

[@HSukePup]

"Clicker" games are the pure experience of Numbers go up. I've played many of them that go from thousands to millions to trillions to 1e50 to 1e90, numbers higher than the number of quarks in the universe. It's ridiculous, but it's a genre of popular addicting games for dumb gamers.

[@SemiIocon]

@@HSukePup Also a lot of idle games are free or basically free. You can play them in the background while at your job as well, which is pretty neat.

[@hiiambarney4489]

That's a weird conception of playing... At this point it's not even a distraction, let alone something engaging, thought or emotion provoking... It's just there... Like... Like a Tamagochi?@@SemiIocon

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

i'm a big incremental idle player, and the appeal of (good) ones is the anticipation of unlocking new creative content ie art and lore. also, some people like math or minmaxing.

[@KhangAJ]

@@HSukePup you're so wrong its funny, the people that play idle game (the one that is actually good and not just shitty slop that got mass produced in 1 day on google play or steam) is so so so far from "dumb gamers", i would dare to say that they are even far smarter than you and me. I could link you 10 different google docs guides from Antimatters Dimensions or Cookie Clickers right now that have even more mathematically formula than words in it.

[@Jim-wb7hl]

Regarding the numbers, this is why I fell in love with Ragnarok Online back in the day. The damage numbers felt "right". Doing 1-2k per attack was an achievement but once all the advance classes started doing a bajillion damage, I just stopped feeling it. MapleStory was kind of the thing.

[@orangeapples]

This is what killed me about Diablo 3. At some point I realized that dealing 7,000,000,000 damage meant the same thing as dealing 7 damage because enemies had trillions of HP.

[@getrdygames1146]

I miss ragnarok online, to this day I can't think of a single game that beats Ragnaroks items, ( drops, cards, etc ), oh and classes and guilds too ofc.. Really needs a good remaster while staying true to its roots. and preferably not run by gravity because they greedy lol

[@gustavogoesgomes1863]

tbh the only game that made me feel something with numbers was dungeons and dragons online. and that's because of the exact opposite. the numbers were incredibly small, and that made the progression much more noticeable. when you are playing action games, you don't have time to be reading and comparing numbers during combat. that's why I feel that smaller is better. although better than small numbers is, for me, no numbers at all, at least on gameplay. I literally don't care. I have more than 2 thousand hours of gameplay on path of exile and I NEVER know how much effective dps or hp I have. I just play and feel

[@Thalanox]

Another person who's played Ragnarok Online and Maple Story! I haven't thought about those games in a long time. I never really got to the end of RO and unlocked all the class features. I think I was around early to mid level.

[@Lexyvil]

@@orangeapples That's the thing. I always loved returning back to noobie areas in RPGs and see how strong I have gotten, but some games have the monsters scale with you no matter where you go, and it kind of beats the purpose. I don't know if Diablo 3 was like that, but I remember some other games did.

[@benjaminhinz2552]

"The fact that human brains are kinda broken is what makes art work at all" -- Adam Millard, 2023

[@SeanCMonahan]

It's true, too, of humor and magic, deceiving us to set up the reward at the end of surprise.

[@PainterVierax]

yep, trickery in art is part of the fundamentals. Pictural arts, acting, music, writing or even artisan crafts or things like gardening, make-up or clothing uses methods to create emotions inside our brains. So yeah, as a media, games are made fun by twisting the real mechanics. Otherwise it's not really a game but an application tool or a scientific simulation made for professional or educative purposes.

[@CRT_sRGB]

I clicked on this video expecting a narrowly-scoped commentary on game design, and was instead served an insight into how fiction works. Yes, it's more than a little weird when you look at it from the outside: non-existent people whom we are made to care about by skillful storytelling. And no one's trying to fool anyone, either! The question that's interesting is, is this peculiar to human brains, or is it an inevitable thing once a sufficient level of intelligence is reached? In the sci-fi classic _The Mote in God's Eye_ (no spoilers), the aliens discuss the human concept of fiction amongst themselves - they don't have this, despite having advanced tech. We'll probably have to wait for our own first contact to find out for certain.

[@birdfacemd]

The game prioritizing upgrades for items you have isn't exactly hidden I'd say, it's pretty obvious the game just wouldn't really work if it didn't do that and it plays into how you strategize your build over a run

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

it reminded me of Heroes of Might and Magic, where upon level up, you could choose between a random upgrade to a skill you already unlocked or a random new skill until your skill slots were full.

[@samplautz5586]

lol I had one game where it just refused to give the bird an upgrade

[@ElSolRacNauj]

I personally draw the line when the game has microtransactions: As far as I know, you cannot pay for more chest on Vampire survivors

[@JDReC100]

your are correct. no microtransactions. just 1 DLC.

[@tonysmith9905]

@@JDReC100 1 DLC so far which was beyond reasonably priced. They've already said they are planning to do more since the first was a massive success.

[@SeanStClair-cr9jl]

You should check out some of the early interviews with the creator - dude actually seems quite down-to-Earth, and very aware of the thing he created. This is actually his first game - he was a developer for gambling software before this. I feel like this is a fact that would have complimented this video quite nicely!

[@dani.2479]

interesting, that means he knows how to grab attention and keep it

[@Khanxay]

@@dani.2479 Yep. Flashing lights and sounds, feedback for every action.

[@johannes.kielmann]

@@Khanxay I believe I've also read that due to his experience with gambling games he knew very well what colors would work well.

[@acedias12]

That explains alot. When I first saw the gameplay I noted how visually and audibly the flashy elements reminded me of a Vegas slot machine.

[@StainlessHelena]

Feels like a redemption arch. He took what made gambling so attractive to the human brain but restrained from letting you drain your wallet if or when you get sucked in.

[@mito._]

@2:20 - ".. it is in some way... manipulative" Explain that to my brain which has damage numbers turned off.

[@ginge3845]

This is the first time i heard someone recognize that vampire survivors came from magic survivial, this is honestly so relieving i thought i made that game up in my head and everyone just thought that vampire survivors was super original stuff

[@cooly1234]

I know right? And Magic Survival is also even better. I don't seem to get that much satisfaction from numbers? I just get the hit when one of my flashy attacks comes of cooldown and destroys a bunch of enemies. And Magic Survival looks better so it better does that.

[@thefernbi4330]

Hell yeah, no one believed me when i told em that i played a game like VS a while ago

[@sithdude2436]

I actually didn't know what Vampire Survivors was about before this video. I'd heard of it, but I had no idea the gameplay was based on one of my favorite mobile games!

[@atb1175]

There's so many game ideas and concepts that go unnoticed because they don't get big exposure. And then people start believing the first popular title or what they experienced first is the original and become protective of it. Many people/gamers are reliant of passive exposure. A game I got a similar vibe from was the ubermosh series.

[@ShadowDLS]

Crimsonland is crying in a corner right now

[@sylvannight6153]

The thing that got me hooked on vampire survivors was the achievement system. I enjoy trying to get every unlock the game has. When the unlocks were done, I stopped playing.

[@CallofDutyBlackOps28]

so you say it's like a carrot on a stick that you'd have never played if there wasn't something to gain?

[@pondoz]

Same for me I got all achievements, did some limit break runs with 1 or 2 weapons and haven’t played since hahaha

[@cryptorcd9352]

The thing that hooked me and I think is really overlooked reason why the game became so popular. Is that drip of content with new patch every week that has been going in early access. 1-3 new achievements to unlock every week and then 6 months later I realize it's my most played game on steam lol

[@maxyang3386]

Same. I got all the achievements and secrets, had a run where I ROFLstomped with Sigma, did a few limit break runs, then quit.

[@paulaldo9413]

Well, I did not. I abused the trouser 1% greed and exponentially gained more gold. Now I have a trouser with 1.8 million eggs. This guy is absolutely spot-on about numbers.

[@wingdinggaster6737]

11:08 Small note, Elite enemies actually aren't tougher based on time. If you check the bestiary their health scales with player level.

[@TegridyMadeGames]

humans love watching number go up. simple yet insanely powerful concept.

[@legeul]

Me playing games like Trimps and Antimater Dimensions......yeah....

[@TegridyMadeGames]

@@legeul me playing runescape even tho all my stats are "maxed"

[@sulpherbratigh7936]

gamers should get a job then, watching your bank account go up is also quite satisfying

[@jasonreed7522]

Victoria 3, which is currently very broken, has already had its first universal meme of "line goes up". (National GDP specifically feels really good to turn into a hockey stick. Line goes up.)

[@Deppie_____]

@@sulpherbratigh7936 with the prices of games nowadays you need a lot of money to even play the newer stuff haha

[@themighty6813]

Nothing compares to the exhilarating thrill of a Darkest Dungeon crit for 12 damage.

[@GameDevYal]

DD crits actually has a bunch of extra effects to make them more mechanically rewarding, too: they ignore defense, they make any ailments/debuffs the move inflicts last longer, and if it's a killing blow the enemy leaves no corpse behind (making cleaning up pesky support units on the back line much easier). It's not just the bigger number, you get a whole bunch of presents in one go.

[@hectorgonzalez8614]

Darkest Dungeon uses low numbers because they increase the tension,you know that extra 1 damage can be the difference between dead or live

[@Fat_Rucker]

@@GameDevYal dealing crits also buff the hero too.

[@Fergusonhelper225]

Crit heal 1hp on a guy on deaths door. I yell "That crit mattered" or something to hide the pain

[@yellowblanka6058]

Honestly, I picked up Vampire Survivors recently and I hadn't really given much though to the damage numbers, oh I certainly give thought to the percentage increases for the skills etc. but it's more about the spectacle of the storm of attacks and laying waste to hordes of enemies as you become a demigod (until it increases in difficulty and you're merely pushing them back with the occasional kill and watching the clock desperately)

[@Alvienzi]

Vampire survivor proves that a game doesn't need to look good or be realistic. It just needs to be fun.

No, it needs to be good, and looks, visuals, do play into this. I could serve you a bowl of glop that tasted absolutely mindblowingly delicious… but would you really enjoy this as much as a well-presented dish?

[@iloveknife8798]

​@ Well.... The game straight up rip everything from castlevania... And i bet you wouldn't know it if i didn't tell you

[@ElBandito]

@ That's basically roux, and I LOVE ROUX!

[@CrypticElements]

@ ok but thats completely irrelevant to their point, they said it doesnt need to look good, not that looks don't improve the game.

[@gildias2556]

@ literally yes i would lol? i would rather have a good tasting dish that looks bad then one that looks incredibly fancy but tastes like ass, is that not common sense?

[@andrewdrost6786]

Opening a chest with 5 items in it produces the most euphoric feeling imaginable.

[@cattysplat]

That reward? That's all you. Pure skill.

[@TheRealXartaX]

dun dun DUN DUN *DUN* **whirr**

[@yaksher]

I think part of the difference is what the direct outcome of the "manipulation" is. Vampire Survivors (from my understanding) is a one-time fee. You pay for it and then you play it. Contrast this to games which use this to directly get you to pay much more than you would ever spend up front and I think it's a pretty clear difference.

[@ekimmak]

6:23 It still felt awesome in Crosscode when you have story bosses with HP numbers so big, you have to receive equally massive damage buffs to beat them.

[@deadfishyarou]

That was a fun moment especially because it happens outside of the game’s regular progression system. And it was extreme basically to the point of satire

[@Runegrem]

@They own you, if you're in debt. I think the numbers become unfun when they become so large you can't even count the digits.

[@draghettis6524]

Gastropolis, with the insane amount of HP it has and the Designer's reactions to you overcoming the impossible, is a really fun fight. And the Creator, despite the alternance of you dealing damage and you not doing anything, remains fun, with the size of damage numbers and the presence of the multiplier on-screen. Lastly, let's not forget the Sergei Hacks option in NG+. Enough of an attack boost to two-shots level 60 enemies at level 2 and at barebones strength ( most of your stats come from gear and the skill tree, and you have access to neither at that point ), during the tutorial escape sequence. It's also fun in the other escape sequence, with the Designer's unending "MORE !" and absurd enemy spawnrate.

[@jaysonrees738]

Heck, I liked it because of that awesome track they gave us during that fight!

[@supersonicgamerguru]

One of the team members used to work designing games for online casinos. When I learned that tidbit, it all made sense.

[@j.j.maverick9252]

they’re redeeming themselves!

[@jessh4016]

@@j.j.maverick9252 New genre: games with all of the worst microtransaction/skinner box practices, but not connected to irl money, and produced ethically? I think there's a niche there

[@JDReC100]

@@jessh4016 id say its a decent way of getting people with addictive personalities a gaming outlet without getting tempted to go into microtransactions. i see potential medical/therapy benefits

[@Aldenfenris]

@@jessh4016 you might want to check this Game called "luck be a landlord that is a slot machine games where you pick the symbols as you progress and basically have to get x money in this many pulls to progress gameplay. It is a fun distraction and feels like the thing that would have been a monetized piece of trash if it was done wrong

[@facebookuser1653]

​@@jessh4016basically the entire genre of roguelikes.

[@Aurumai]

You actually kinda touched on something I've been thinking about for years now -- I have a deep, special love for certain types of RPGs where you start off doing literally 1 to 3 damage per attack, and then you go on to increase that number immensely throughout the game. It's definitely satisfying for the reasons you pointed out, but I'm also obsessed with this idea from a story standpoint too. I'm not a very extroverted person, so games where you're playing as a well-known hero or even a famous person don't really appeal to me in the same way I presume they do for extroverted people. I love playing games where you start off as basically no one, just a regular, simple person who nobody knows, and you're able to drift from place to place without being noticed. I find that the progression from extremely weak to overwhelmingly powerful fits absolutely beautifully with the narrative of going from being nobody, to maybe saving the entire universe. I wish more game developers would really lean into this concept. Sometimes it adds an element of conspiracy and secrecy if your character(s) actually does have a grand plan, but has room to maneuver because of their anonymity. For lack of a better term, it feels almost like "social stealth". I also find that these games have more replay value because it's satisfying to watch this progression happen, knowing where it will all go.

[@birthdayzrock1426]

Grim dawn, path of exile

[@barnertalik1806]

One of my favorite things about the fire emblem games is the fact that they use small numbers. When your main character starts with only 5 strength, it going up by 1 on a level up feels like a really big deal, and when you're used to dealing 10-15 damage early on, getting your first crit over 100 feels amazing

[@duneysands946]

Surprised I didn’t see you mention that the main dev of vampire survivor used to design slot machines. Brings a whole new perspective to the addictive elements of the game. Shit now I want to go play more VS

[@mewletter]

I kind of not surprised regarding the main developer since I do see some similarities between the game and slot machine mechanics, right down to flashy, bright lights and big numbers filling the screen. LOL

[@madbruv]

It's on android too

[@thisisthelukas]

TLDR: Level scaling bad, power fantasy good. Ugga now go hunt meat for friend.

[@jeffbergstrom]

Most people learn pretty soon to turn off the damage numbers in Vampire Survivors. They just clutter an already super cluttered screen. You still have the hordes and whatnot but few are in it to see the damage numbers which are near unreadable anyway while playing.

[@Senayoshy]

i feel like we've all played something like this before in our life, but it wasn't until now that a game of this genre truly took off

[@goatlps]

Agreed. The gfx are bad enough without the numbers in the way.

[@olivercharles2930]

I personally don't do that lol And seeing the actual numbers doesn't matter as long as they look big.

[@koffing2073]

Yes damage numbers are only useful at the beginning, then its the sheer number of enemies themselves that is satisfying

[@kagemushashien8394]

They basically serve no purpose instead of manipulation.

[@mattkennedy146]

Mario has points? Seriously though, the numbers displayed in vampire survivors are meaningless to me, everything is happening so fast and there's so much going on that I barely notice they are there. "The numbers are why you keep coming back!" No dude, the numbers are just more visual chaff, lost in the cloud of everything else going on.

[@RyanBeardy]

Really interesting video. I personally loved the smaller numbers in Paper Mario. They let me better strategize how to defeat enemies in the smallest amount of turns and because some enemies are vulnerable only to jump and some hammer, it felt like I was making strategic impactful choices.

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

Same. It is the only game I can remember that each upgrade felt game-changing instead of, "I hit a little harder now, joy." I get excited about the upgrades from Paper Mario even when re-playing the game because I know it actually means something. I wish more turn-based games used smaller numbers. I quit feeling any attachment to the numbers that pop up on the screen any time a game reaches around 300 in damage output per attack. I can't even tell you if the numbers are getting higher after 1k. Maybe that is why my favorite part of any RPG is the early game, where you start out dealing around 14 damage, then level up and start doing 16 damage. If you are already doing 140 damage per attack, is 20 more that big of a deal? Well, yes. It is the exact same amount of damage increase, but it somehow feels less satisfying. More low-number TBRPGs would be great.

[@sparkyspinz9897]

​@@peaceandloveusa6656I agree completely. Rpgs should have smaller numbers. Things like diablo or other grindy action games big numbers can be fun but for tactical play? Nah

[@musicgardener2142]

yes a human mind is much more capable of grasping number relations in small numbers then let's say the difference between quadrillions and quintillions. I even once heard a theory about the human mind only being able to differentiate between the numbers 1-3 in a direct fashion, meaning with no further brain activity needed to perceive it. But that's taking it a bit far i think. :D

[@ZaItan1]

We consider differences proportionally rather linearly. Increasing damage output from 1000 to 1100 (10% increase) might be technically impactful in some situations, but it doesn't intrinsically feel as much compared to going from 100 to 200 (100% increase). This intuition makes sense when you think about how to optimally invest scarce resources too, but easy to trick.

[@PinkMawile]

I actually have found myself mostly turned off by large numbers in games. Especially in MMOs, I'd rather having smaller numbers that would make understanding the impact of my changing equipment more understandable. The difference between 2 and 3 in my head just seems more understandable than 2000 vs 3000.

[@leedlelel2373]

THIS!!!! Bigger numbers just start to get really dull to see thrown around alot

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

100% agree! Once I am dealing around 300 damage my brain just starts tuning it out. Once it hits 1k, I cant even tell you if my damage is increasing at all. Large numbers being "more stimulating" to the brain, I believe, is a fallacy. People feel more about two kids dying in a car crash than 10,000 people dying from a natural disaster. Why? Because we cannot conceive 10,000 people on an emotional level. Likewise, one (US) quarter *feels* more satisfying to hold than 25 pennies. Why? Because we can easily hold it in our hand and go "this is worth 0.25" while 25 pennies could be anywhere from 15-30 for all we know. Small numbers are so much more satisfying in all areas of life, except maybe your bank account. lol

[@porkerpete7722]

So if you start off with a weapon that does 1 dmg. 10 dmg makes you feel powerful? Really?

[@Khaim.m]

Highly recommend the game Into The Breach, by the guys that made FTL (which is also good). They specifically chose to use small numbers so that every difference was impactful. When most enemies do 1 damage the difference between 2hp and 3hp is massive.

[@lukask3714]

The fact that you showed the absolute gem that slice and dice is for some seconds at 12:45 makes this all the better for me :D

[@olx8654]

The first thing i did was turn damage numbers off because they are distracting. I believe the reason it is popular is because people like to multitask a stream/podcast/movie while playing it.

[@QuantumHistorian]

You touched on it here, but a video on the pros and cons of enemy scaling (and how different solutions work in different cases) would be super interesting. It's completely blown up the community in a couple of early access games I'm following: Wartales and Everspace 2. Both very different genres, but both struggling with the same issue.

[@cattysplat]

Reality is there are many players who will stop playing when they die to higher levelled enemies, often by accident from exploring. Developers don't want this to happen, so they scale enemies, even if it effects the world building and challenge of the game. Whilst majority would never admit it publicly, the data from testing shows otherwise.

[@jessh4016]

@@cattysplat Idk, a lot of the games with a huge following don't scale enemies. New Vegas, Souls games, Stalker games... Then there's Skyrim, which is really popular with scaling enemies, but even people that like it criticize the combat. Though it's more of a sandbox game. I feel like optimizing a game for "person who immediately quits after wandering into a high leveled area" is the best way to end up with a game that's like a big bowl of unseasoned oatmeal. There's a lot there, but no flavor. Also, a lot of people's favorite stories from games involve getting splatted by a giant or tree sentinel or something in the first 5min. Just spitballing I guess. Although if you're designing a skinner box, it's best to optimize for keeping people's attention like that.

[@aurtosebaelheim5942]

@@jessh4016 I feel like Souls and Stalker are bad examples here. For all their openness, Souls games generally boil down to a choice of pretty linear paths. You don't just stumble into Blight Town or the Tomb of Giants, there's whole gauntlets of stuff in the way. Stalker is similar in that it has clear, often gated progression between different zones. You don't get to the more difficult areas without passing through the military checkpoint between the Cordon and Garbage. In both games you have to pass through challenges that prepare you for later areas in order to access those areas. Compare with Fallout/Skyrim, where you can wander off in any direction and do anything at any point. The game can't set any expectations for your skills (either character stats or player skill) because it doesn't know how you got to where you are. Elden Ring might be a good comparison point, but I haven't played it so can't really comment. Personally, I generally hate scaling in games but don't think it's the problem in and of itself. The Witcher 3 had an unscaled world, but still had many of the problems of one, the world didn't change to match your level, but you spent a lot of time fighting stronger versions of the exact same thing that just had a bigger number over their heads. I think that's the big issue. The world feels less believable when Drowners are one of the first enemies you fight and they're very weak, but a random group of them in the corner of the map have more health than a mid-game boss and hit harder than freight trains. Similarly, in Oblivion, when you hit a certain level and suddenly the forces of hell send out the man-crocodiles, every bandit finds a set of glass armour and every tomb is conveniently packed with liches instead of skeletons it makes the world seem fake. Games need to appropriately contextualise power changes. Having levelled areas is an easy way of doing this: "the types of enemies in this area are stronger than the types of enemies in the starting area" is a good enough excuse most of the time (assuming it's actually different types of enemies and not just "lvl1 goblin" and "lvl10 goblin"). I'd also be fine with a properly-justified levelled world though. If in Skyrim, all enemy scaling was tied into the dragons returning up I'd be fine with it, equate the passage of time with player level and make sure that the scaling comes in the form of stronger enemy variants only. A standard draugr should always be the same strength, but as you get higher level, stronger variants are awoken. Make sure that there are some constants, like animal spawn tables, to ground the player's increasing power too. Same with Oblivion. Remove all scaling from the ruins and caves, but have overworld scaling tied to the Oblivion gates. As you get higher level, the invasion ramps up, Oblivion gates are more common, stronger Daedra are coming through and they're roaming further out, making the world a more dangerous place. Of course, those ideas run into issues where the end of the main quest is concerned.

[@Maladjester]

I love that you showed Satisfactory. At start, putting up a single machine that produces 1 copper per second feels like a big deal. Late game, adding another 960 copper/second is a minor chore you complete because you're seeing an occasional empty space on the belts. EDIT: Everyone who ever played XCOM remembers losing a lynchpin support colonel because he missed a 99% shot and was immediately stomped into paste by a Muton with one friggin' hit point left. RIP Cowboy, you will be missed. On the other hand, I also remember giving out the callsign Golden Boy to a rookie who made literally every shot he tried in his first two missions.

[@edoardocaccia6226]

It's worth to notice that people imagine numbers in different ways, and that can affect how we get affected by this design philosophy. For example, most of what you said in the video applies to me, too, but I noticed that when it comes to health bars, I like smaller numbers better: I visualise each HP as a segment and it's more satisfying to break a few large "blocks" than a bunch of (individually) insignificant ones. I also don't like when there are zeros that can never be actually changed like with Mario (Yu-Gi-Oh is a major offender) because I subconsciously perceive them as nothing more than noise and consciously as a scam

[@benmerkin3202]

One video games progression I always appreciated was Hollow Knight. While the nail level ups are pretty basic at heart, there’s a whole area before the level up with the basic enemies in the games. On your way to level up you’re taking like 3 hits to kill each enemy, but then on your way back you need go to through the same area and suddenly each only takes two hits, giving you a very tangible sense of how much you’ve grown

[@Wooskii1]

I realized what Vampire Survivor was doing right away (it was kinda obvious that the weapons aren't random) and once I realized there are no paid DLC/ MTX I fell in love with it before I could even imagine how powerful you can get... Great little game

[@stinkymonke3622]

there is 2 or 3 paid dlc's now but it is a good amount of content

[@arahman56]

@@stinkymonke3622 And the paid DLCs are extra stages and items (the latest one being an Among Us crossover), not random microtransactions.

[@bigkirbyhj666]

Honestly a 4 $ game that I got dozens of hours before the dlc I'll gladly reward them for the entertainment they provide.

[@Sky-ur1wk]

The fact that the creator refused to monetize the in-game aspect of it so hard that it made finding publishers for the mobile part way more difficult than it should have been is really respectable.

[@matteoar]

If I recall correctly, the head dev of VS used to work for a gambling company, so it doesn't surprise me that he managed to use the fun in numbers to make an addictive game

[@CMCAdvanced]

The slot machine motif in the game cleaves any surprise that might have given me in twain

[@arthurdurham]

That shocks me as this is one of the least predatory games I have ever played. Significantly underpriced for its value, free dlc, no monetization, and even the mobile version is free with unobtrusive ads. You'd think he'd use his powers for evil instead of good.

[@glooberofficial]

@@arthurdurham i mean it has paid dlc, but they are like 2 dollars, and 100% worth it (from someone that 100%ed the dlc) hyped for the new one that will come out in like a few days

[@danielm5161]

One thing to note is that the math trick only seems to work with single player, leveling up type concepts. Sports tend to use low numbers to define how well you are doing. For example, Soccer is the most popular sport on earth yet it's also the lowest scoring sport on earth. A goal is worth 1 point and games rarely get over 4 points in a single game. So how come competitive games generally stick to 1 goal equaling 1-6 points (basketball a goal is 2-3 points, football and rugby 6 and 5 points) yet self leveling games inflate scores. hmmm...

[@TheTolnoc]

I don't have to pay Vampire Survivors out of my real wallet for its chests, so I'll let them get away with it.

[@Yoanka]

As interesting as I found the discussion about us being dumb with big numbers, I actually turned the numbers in Vampire Survivors off almost immediately, because they felt like too much visual clutter. It's all in the shiny, shiny particle effects for me. The growth curve still applies though, my monkey brain really can't help loving the progression from throwing single knives at your enemies, defeating them one by one, to becoming an Unholy Vespers meat grinder. :D

[@paveljanik9970]

just a side note: enemies in vampire survivors scale with your level, not just the timer, that´s why death kill on level 2 was possible back in the day

[@no64256]

Large numbers in games is kinda why i wish stuff also displayed a percentage, and not just numbers. Makes things much easier to digest For example, lots of fighting games have the player health in the thousands, ten thousands, or even hundreds of thousands, and it makes reading damage numbers hard to visualize. But Mortal Kombat displays your combo damage in percentages, making it super easy to visualize

[@ArDeeMee]

Percentages just mean that you have 100 HP. So, yeah. It does make the game much easier to digest.

[@kingpotatochips9458]

Honestly i played so much magic survival, its actually super fun. It has some cool mechanics once you get into the late game that i didnt see in vampire survivors. It is very much a time cruncher, but there are a couple builds that i found to be super fun

[@MauAdri2135]

I also like the little bits of lore which are given after you completed a level.

[@talkingbirb2808]

I played like 5+ hours and couldn't reach 30 minutes mark in magic survival :( Now I want to try again though

[@GR4NT01D]

I feel like magic survival is almost unknown compared to how big vampire survivors got. Almost seems like vampires was a rip off of it.

[@de_g0od]

Yeah sadly magic survivals updates make it worse over time tho

[@AceOfBlade]

​@@GR4NT01D well yeah magic survival is the first-of-its-kind it just on mobile but recently the updates are making the game worse

[@sorensouthard927]

Ah yes, I relate this to the fallout stimpak proportion calculation. I always related how well I've done and whether an encounter was worthwhile based off of the amount of stimpaks I've gained or lost in the encounter. Although I already had stimpaks numbering in the thousands and getting anymore realistically worthless, I still felt like I was losing out when I went minus 1 in an encounter.

[@IamCoalfoot]

I really like this comparison. Stimpacks as you said are functionally useless as a resource, but whether you gain or lose feels like a mark of skill or how 'fair' an encounter ends up being. (Looking at you, acid damage that only three creatures possess and which no armor can ever resist...)

[@porkerpete7722]

OCD like me!

[@away7802]

I don't need someone to tell me what's fun and what's not. As long as I can enjoy it then it’s a good game. Why don't you people understand such a simple thing?

[@Soul-Burn]

You mentioned that Vampire Survivors don't have enemy scaling, but it does. Some of the enemies (those people find annoying) are actually scaled to your level. It's actually useful to *not* level up too much to make it less hard near the end. The crown is considered by many a bad item because of this, pretty much forcing your into the Pentagram combo as the *only* reasonable way to actually kill enemies at that level.

[@Shadesight]

I was looking for this. Many enemies - Deaths, at least - have health that scales on your level.

[@KlaverKatten]

There are other ways of overcoming them, evolved clock lancet comes to mind, together with the AoE slow of the evolved song of mana. It's definitelt possible to plan for it, especially with the new seal, which allows you to make the odds of gathering the planned loadout pretty guaranteed, if one knows how. Also the randomozzo have powerful abilities and are not taken into account for balancing the levels at all.

[@jawstrock2215]

You can stop leveling completely with how gems drops. after a certain amount is on scree, they stop spawning, and instead they all get accumulated into a single red gem. So the crown becomes a lvl fast early on to get your setup, then you can stop moving(and stop leveling) from 15-20 mins and finish without giving mobs more HP.

[@type-21yamashiro89]

after you get your hand on Infinite corridor and the coat, you will forgot that death have HP×Level

[@ElBandito]

Useful to know.

[@vinny_n_p]

Vampires Survivors is a perfect example of how simplicity can be fun and very successful in a game.

[@gryphonofmight]

and without being exploitative

[@TheTolnoc]

>D2 with less than a thousand Light Really checking the archives for this one.

[@CysmaWinheim]

Thanks for the term Stat Squish. I actually like trying to design stat systems with certain starting and ending points in mind, for many of the same reasons mentioned in this video. I've often felt like it's more impressive when your health stat starts around 100 and rises exponentially towards 9999, rather than starting around 30 and rising linearly to 999, for instance, and when your level caps at a nice round number like 100 instead of a weird number like 87 or something.

[@CanyonF]

i like of like when the max level is like, 87. It makes it feel more "real" like, yea that's when you get everything. it would feel artificial if it were a round number. Of course, it's all artificial, but it doesn't feel that way

[@CysmaWinheim]

@@CanyonF Your level in Final Fantasy Mystic Quest happened to cap at like, 42 or so, but that was because your EXP was capped at 999,999 and 42 was the highest level that required less than that amount.

[@CanyonF]

@@CysmaWinheim thats funny. I was thinking of dark souls where the cap is at 802 or something, since thats what you get if you level every individua stat to 99, which I guess is also arbitrary lol

[@CysmaWinheim]

@@CanyonF Funny how that is. Like in Old-School Runescape, your character is assigned a Combat Level which is based on certain stats. Level up all these stats to 99 and your Combat Level tops out at 126 due to the weird way it's calculated.

[@MehnixIsThatGuy]

The Only money Vampire Survivors wants from me is the initial asking price. Its "Exploitative" Game Mechanics do not aim to deprive me of money, and therefore are not nearly as immoral.

[@Kyrmana]

They still want you to recommend it to other people to get them to buy too.

[@xIQ188x]

@@Kyrmana I don’t care what they want. I’m recommending to people because I think it’s fun and like talking about it with people.

[@MehnixIsThatGuy]

@@Kyrmana Pretty sure every Developer would like their players to do that. That's just basic word of mouth marketing, common across all forms of purchasable product, especially non-mutually interchangeable ones such as Video Games or Movies.

[@TNTITAN]

Your wrong. At first it was the original asking price, now they want an additional $1.99. If we give in now do you know what happens. That’s right $2.50!

[@Orange_Swirl]

@@TNTITAN oh god, how terrible! anyway

[@latioshunter]

This finally explains why Mario even has a score system. Big number at end screen means we won.... but, you cant do anything with that score other than just brag to your school mates about not just how fast you got to the end, but also of how high the score was. I always thought it was pretty dumb when RPG games start out with the MC having like 1k health and doing hundreds of damage when just having 100 health and doing 10-30 damage would be literally mathematically the same. Fluctuations go crazy when you see your lvl5 party doing 10k damage like its nothing. Like great, this game is a big giant number sponge in disguise.

[@harrylane4]

The ultimate "Number Go Up" game. This obsession with big numbers is the same reason people (myself included) love idle games.

[@zeo4481]

My guy out here playing Mario for the score 🤣🤣🤣

[@LostHorizons0]

I don’t know any one who did that except maybe some weird score pusher or challenge runner the average play doesn’t even look at the score.

[@randomnumbers84269]

The early era games all having scores and scoreboards was always so weird and off putting for me. Good thing most modern games don't have them any more.

[@William-Afton_jejcjschheiqx]

This reminder me of how some raffles will give you like 10 tickets per dollar Wich feels ALOT more than one dollar but it’s effectively the same

[@FireballZora]

Adam: no you're not supposed to have fun! Me: ha ha big numbers go brrrr

[@zombiesue1054]

Ha, I literally just had this feeling yesterday. Tried out Elder Scrolls Online for the first time, rolled up my very first character on my girlfriend's account, took a look around the skills and whatever, saw that my level 1 healing ability healed 4,831hp/s, looked at her and said "oh, so this game has *those* kinds of numbers, eh?"

[@Guardian-of-Light137]

That's a thing I really started pondering when a mobile game I loved went down hill. King's Raid. It was the type of game where you could do billions of damage in seconds against enemies with billions of health. (It was more complex than that but this is the important part for my point.) Eventually the devs changed everything and nerfed ALL the numbers into the ground. You were doing good to deal more than 100 damage or so now but enemies had less health to compensate. ... But they nerfed the healing to! And way to harshly so now it does nothing at all practically and a lot of beloved skills got changes that make no sense. What we had before worked and people loved it. Now it's a dead game. But this got me thinking. Numbers are all relative anyway. 1 damage to an enemy with 1 million hp can't even be considered a bruise. 1 damage to an enemy with 5 hp is equivalent to losing an arm! Darkest dungeon being a prime example. All of its numbers are low but because they're all low they all have the same weight to them. (Now sure there's more to it all than that, but I think I've made my point.) Sure we like seeing big numbers but in the end if they're balanced right it really doesn't matter what the numbers are. Only that they're relative to your actions.

[@cattysplat]

The sad fact is the game likely didn't start that way, it has only become inflated over time with power creep coming with every expansion. The worst thing is you know this breaks stuff at the lower levels for sure, some things being snore boringly easy or getting killed quickly because the numbers didn't scale right.

[@Gfish17]

Something wrong with "those kinda numbers"?

[@Guardian-of-Light137]

@@Gfish17 They're big just for the sake of being big. Balancing is tricky of course but you can easily have less numbers on everything and still get the same experience.

[@Gfish17]

@@Guardian-of-Light137 Let's have big numbers that mean something then!

[@name-ie9qo]

I didn't expect an in-depth analysis of the psychology of numbers in games. Well done. It was enlighteningly engaging

[@Mysda_]

As a pinball designer, I was thinking about my own tables during the first part and I'm surprised to see you talk about it! It always have been an issue for me as my eyes can't count zeros in big numbers easily, it all just blurs together, so going smaller is tempting.

[@exidy-yt]

You have perfectly explained my near 25 year old period of total addiction for 4 years to EverQuest and my obsessive goal of chasing 'dings' for my Necromancer that slightly increased some numbers, so that other numbers could be increased or decreased (mana regeneration vs liching cost / health regeneration, among others) and stuff died faster while I died slower. Man. Well done.

[@Youhadabadday2021]

4:16 Bro, you have zero idea how happy I am to see Zen Pinball/Pinball FX in this relatively popular video.

[@grfrjiglstan]

I had a feeling the pentagram was dealing me a better hand than it claimed, but I'm glad it's tied to the luck stat instead of just being a flat increase. Feels a little more...earned.

[@Sorain1]

The bigger upside to it is that it becomes something you could build around. There are options to make it work, and that's important.

[@Gogoroth2]

I love video essays like this. I was expecting Adam to talk about how the flashing lights and other vending machine mechanics make for an addictive experience, but I wasn't expecting him to also showcase how those techniques are done in other games, or have been fine tuned over video game history. It's an essay about a specific game, and also many games at once.

[@FreedomDaveX]

I never noticed any draw to the numbers. That seems absurd. I thought it was just the ability to take out more and more enemies with ease, which is fairly concrete.

[@MalleusSemperVictor]

It isn't that we're stupid, we're _predictable_

[@lschnitzer7770]

The one doesn't exclude the other

[@Gfish17]

@@lschnitzer7770 Maybe not. However that doesn't mean we're stupid.

[@jinkeloid]

Wow, I'm on a streak! I'm almost starting to suspect I'm the sole Patreon on the $8 tier lol. I really like this particular video, didn't expect you went from number manipulation all the way to player progression. Speaking of, I noticed there are multiple instances where you bring up player progression(or topics related to this) to spice up your video, maybe it'd be a good idea to sum them up and give a general opinion on player progression in video games? I for sure would watch it. Though I guess you might have trouble thinking of a compelling title for such video.

[@jessh4016]

patron

[@garygameking]

Very interesting interpretation of the concept of fun in video games. I came here to try to defend Vampire Survivors but got blown away by your thoughts and went on hours to read about probability paradoxes. Great video!

[@hiiambarney4489]

You won't need to defend the game. Everyone who bashed it will accept that it can stay with the cool kids on the block of indie. Even if it has a very ugly jawline and crooked teeth. As long as there aren't MTX, which there EASILY could've been we are all cool with it.

[@bruschetta7711]

Vampire Survivor does have pretty good music, which is key for a simple game like this

[@hiiambarney4489]

Also note: not only are the animations for the chest almost 1 to 1 slot machine "bonus rounds" but the music is pretty much identical to those as well.

[@alpal4245]

Been playing rain world and learned that a spear does 1 damage and most enemies have 1 to 5 health. It feels fine and the game never tells you anything in game, but it still felt weird to learn

[@rbdriftin]

I turned the damage numbers off, I was still addicted to it.

[@gregathol]

Was gonna say, while this is definitely an aspect on Vampire Survivors, it’s hardly the only or even main reason it’s fun and addictive.

[@seighartmercury]

"bigger numbers" isn't just damage numbers, but also amount of enemies and exp orbs on the screen (among other things)

[@itsaUSBline]

@@seighartmercury sure, but all of Adam's examples refer very specifically to number numbers popping up on screen in various games.

[@seighartmercury]

@@itsaUSBline He also talked about hoards and "worthless blue orbs"...

[@oliverhalenius]

Keep in mind that the video isn't just about the visible numbers though, but just as much about the numbers and progression driving it from behind the scenes

[@Renagale]

I definitely understand a lot of the psychological tactics to make people play but a few of them I deliberately avoid in the game like turning off damage numbers and saving chests until I can evolve a weapon or have one or two items to force the chest to give me the items I need rather then banishing items in the level up so I don't see them in future level ups I enjoyed completing the collections and secret missions

[@Ashebrethafe]

I thought I'd read that the item in a chest was determined when it dropped, but I've seen that that isn't the case. Maybe it's just that if a level doesn't let you evolve weapons in the first ten minutes, then chests that drop before then won't evolve weapons even if you collect them later.

[@YGBHawk]

I think the take here is Vampire Survivors is good because it's so cheap. It can be manipulative, but along as it's not draining people's banks, then all good! It's a classic, like Bejewelled and Peggle.

[@Blizniak666]

Loved the little insights into how different games nudges the chances in your favor. Great video as always :)

[@williamguenard9654]

"It's all about big numbers" me who turns damage numbers off.

[@jada90]

You now made me want to play an RPG game where you start as a strong proud character at the height of his power and slowly get weaker and the numbers get smaller the further on in your adventure you go, until you're nothing but a pitiable husk of your former self, and the pain that comes from growing old and infirm.

[@joachimfrank4134]

As it is told in the bible: If you don't become a child you won't reach the kingdom of heaven. So some old people tell, it seems like they have to turn into a child again. Loosing the ability to walk and needing others to care for you.

[@barmy8219]

This could be amazing. Like if at the beginning you have all kinds of ways to increase your power but they gradually become less effective and then you start to backslide.

[@Luanmm]

As this may make a good story, playing it probably would suck. We like to feel progressing, and while watching someone melting might be fun in a movie or such, taking control of it in a videogame would probably feel you yourself is devolving... What do you think?

[@TheQrstOne]

​@@Luanmm, what about a switch from bombastic shooter to stealth? I've tried (and failed) to come up with a system like I've described for some time, but that seems the best way to show someone getting weaker.

[@Luanmm]

@@TheQrstOne ​ That seems interesting. Just maintaining the same game genre throughout the weakening might be too hard, but changing to a stealth game, as you sugested, could work! Maybe it is not the simplest thing to do, change the genre on the fly, as I can't recall any game that did it (successfully or not). But I don't think it would be impossible!

[@gregathol]

I was just thinking of the Hitman Merces amount. In the intro video, it shows the character getting 15 M and I was sad like “aw that’s it?”. Pleasantly surprised when it had that extra zero added. Such a weird funny little thing about us.

[@helplmchoking]

Yes! I genuinely decided I wasn't gonna bother that much with the side objectives since I didn't care that much about some cosmetic upgrades to 47's kitchen. And here I am getting into absolutely ridiculous situations to get that 3,000M bonus and I love it, that's manipulating me into having more fun, using my monkey brain to give me a better experience and it's how this kinda game design should be used

[@Fr.O.G.]

"you play as a knock off castlevania character" you can now play as an actual castlevania character

[@StyGGz]

That was a great video. I've wondered about this for so long and this explains it so well. Brotato is quite a good Vampire Surviors clone that has the game run for only 20 levels in order to cap the scaling. I think that is a good way of setting a min/max level to how high things can scale before the numbers start to not make sense anymore.

[@strai8665]

There's a pretty clear line; when that exploitation is used to steal real money from players.

[@marcforrester7738]

Okay yes, VS uses all these tricks to get its initial hooks in, but it wouldn't work if it was just that. The real game is one of finding a huge sequence of apparently game breaking weapon & ability combinations, then quickly discovering the game meant for you to do that and has a ridiculous stack of meta-challenges hidden behind the curtain where you must find ever more broken builds to deal with its next deeply unfair demand. It's a work of genius wearing a basic numbers-go-up clown suit.

[@BMoser-bv6kn]

So it's the same as Cookie Clicker. Neat.

[@HansLemurson]

I remember wondering as a kid why Pokemon cards had HP and Damage both in units of 10. Doing 20 damage to a 50HP critter is the same as doing 2 damage to a 5HP critter, which is how it works in Magic the Gathering.

[@Nazuiko]

Well because in the actual games you have roughly 20 hp to start the game and end up with pools around 300-400. The card games emulate those numbers, without getting overly complex by incrementing them down to the single digits, instead representing the pools/damage on numbers that fit on a die - 1 through 12 (120 HP being the biggest cards back in the day, but now theyre over 200 commonly due to powercreep)

[@TheJacklikesvideos]

Yu-Gi-Oh!: "hold my pot of greed"

[@LittleMushroomGuy]

I remember playing it every week with every update during its Early Access, at some point I realized that its a terrible loop of getting a combination of items and then wasting 10 mins just standing there until Death comes After defeating death and unlocking him as a character the wait period was increased to like 15-25 mins of not having to do anything to win

[@LateralTwitlerLT]

I don't care about the numbers or "higher" versions of them. In fact - I play with the numbers turned off, as they clutter the screen too much when the enemies flood you. And that proves there's not the big numbers that makes the game enjoyable.