Vanadium Flow Batteries

[@ACSReactions]

Periodic table grab bag of battery elements that are used for flow batteries: zinc-bromine (the oldest!), polysulfide-bromine, iron-chromium, titanium-iron, the list goes on….!

[@SylviaRustyFae]

I dont know if intentional or not, but i love that the element you hit was iron, which is also in the examples list; twice even

[@petevenuti7355]

And then there's the organic battery, can you cover that because as far as I know things like quinone don't have a charge when oxidized, as an ion of metal does.

[@mike27158]

Isn't Vanadium the better option?

[@petevenuti7355]

@@mike27158 I don't know about better but it's definitely cool because it has so many different valence states each with their own color so you could just look at the color of the electrolyte and know the state of the charge, and that's all using a single element & easy to recycle, so it's definitely cool. But as for whether or not it's better, you got to take into account that if this goes into mass production what would be the limitations of the resource and the price point increase when the demand goes up. Iron is probably best from a large-scale price point perspective, and lithium will always be king for power density, yet of the hundreds of different other chemistries in between, it's just a compromise between price and power all of them useful and they all should find a place.

[@ronkirk5099]

Fun fact: Vanadium is about as common as copper, nickel and zinc in the Earth's crust, but it is more expensive (at present) to refine the ore. I'm a retired engineer, so I really enjoyed your explanation of the chemistry involved.

[@realandimaginedxyz]

One thing to note is that spread of a mineral is often more important than how 'common' it is. Plus other roles it has. Considering most Vanadium comes from Russia and China, and it is a strategic mineral because of alloying, I'd not bet on it for a large scale storage solution. My money is on iron air batteries for grid scale.

[@johnathancorgan3994]

I've been hearing about vanadium redox flow batteries since UNSW's original work in the early 2000s. It's exciting, to be sure, but it and other flow battery chemistries never seem to have taken off since. It would be really interesting to see a home-scale off-grid implementation of solar + flow battery designed for year-round use.

[@tgeliot]

Yeah I'd be concerned about this particular model freezing up.

[@Roxor128]

@@tgeliot Would be completely usable in warmer countries like Australia, though. There aren't really any areas here that would get cold enough for long enough outside of a few ski resorts in the mountains. Where I live, it gets down to -10 overnight in the winter, but the daytime temperatures are always positive. Worst I've seen in terms of anything freezing is mabye 15mm of ice on a puddle after a big frost. A 9L bucket of water left outside won't freeze solid, so a 100L tank definitely won't and you can always insulate the pipes going to the reaction chamber if you're worried about those. Also, the dissolved metals are probably going to lower the freezing point of the solution, just like with the salt in seawater.

[@sjsomething4936]

There is a very large grid scale flow battery being implemented by Xcel Energy in Minnesota. Not sure if there are any for home energy storage in the works, that probably goes back to the much earlier point in the video about cost at small vs large scale for Lion vs redox flow.

[@TheDennisgrass]

"The U.S. made a breakthrough battery discovery - then gave the technology to China" by Courtney Flatt Oregon Publishing Broadcasting website.

[@nhlanhlasophaza5004]

Great video thanks a lot. Tapping into my old school inorganic chemistry. Used to love this at varsity.

[@is-gm6hg]

Thanks for you time and efforts to creating this nice video. Keep it up!

[@rsteel13]

Concerning your comments about investment and capitalism: my problem is with legislation and where the country will DICTATE what will be used. I feel like we are faced with either Cassettes or 8-track, VHS or BETA, CDs or Laser Disks. Obviously each had a clear winner, but we didn't know which one until several years and dollars had been invested. It's probably why the Big 3 pulled back the reins on EV cars for the moment. I too also appreciated your comment about inherited wealth. :)

[@brettito]

"Betting their inherited wealth" shots fired. Spicy for a science channel!

[@mr.bennett108]

I heard that and had to stop the video and say OUT LOUT "Oh Snap Shots Fired!" I love knowing I wasn't the only one with literally the EXACT same response hahaha

[@procactus9109]

This was more of an arbitrary craft channel... No science in this video.

[@junkyardmonkie]

This was the exact comment I was going to write before I found it in the comment section. Amazing.

[@KaushikAdhikari]

He's not wrong

[@AtlasReburdened]

Shots fired at whom?

[@playgroundchooser]

0:57 Hold on, we're not going to let that brilliant little joke slide past... are we? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Nothing better than taking a pop shot at trust fund "venture capitalists."

[@EladLerner]

I noticed! It cracked me up XD

[@allthingsdestructive]

Im finishing my PhD on VRFBs. If anyone wants to know the drawbacks or advantages feel free to comment below and I'll answer them. Also, the anolyte should have been colored violet, not blue. Blue corresponds to V4+, not V2+.

[@ILoveTinfoilHats]

What does the battery juice taste like

[@rkeil3145]

Can the regeneration process occur in the stack? Do the liquids need to be removed and redox chemistry done to the solutions?

[@cake0214]

Do acid solvent variant increase the voltage as much as the organic solvent mentioned in the video?

[@allthingsdestructive]

@@rkeil3145 if I'm understanding your first question, yes, the "stack" is where the redox reactions take place. VRFBs are considered fully rechargeable, meaning that the battery can flow all of its electrolytes through the stack to extract electrical energy, and then flow them again with a voltage applied to reverse the process. The whole process is only ~80% efficient for the sulfuric acid based electrolytes. This should answer your second question, since the liquids can be "regenerated" by flowing through the stack during recharge.

[@allthingsdestructive]

@@cake0214 no, the voltage remains the same for different acids. There is a theoretical maximum voltage (1.2 V) possible with the two redox pairs (V2+/V3+ and V4+/V5+) which cannot be achieved in reality due to thermodynamic and kinetic losses. Different supporting electrolytes can help reduce these losses but you cannot go over the maximum. The only way to increase the voltage over the maximum is to change one or both of the redox pairs. If you replace the cathode reaction with an oxygen reduction reaction, the voltage jumps to almost 1.5 V.

[@AidanRatnage]

I feel like you are setting a bad example by not wearing goggles while working with Conc H2SO4.

[@ACSReactions]

Oh, that's a great point. To be clear, that setup was a purely **metaphorical** vanadium flow battery, there was absolutely no H2SO4 involved.

[@filonin2]

He was wearing metaphorical goggles.

[@jeffreysoreff9588]

Also, since the anolyte and catholyte are liquids, rather than solid electrodes which can accumulate defects with each charge/discharge cycle, a lot of the mechanisms for the cells to wear out go away.

[@mrmaple]

I would have liked to learn more about how it would be recharged, and at what scale it could be useful to a homeowner (if at all.)

[@willythemailboy2]

They're almost infinitely rechargeable by running the thing in reverse. Electricity goes in, the V3+ gets reduced to V2+, the V4+ gets oxidized to V5+, and the whole thing is ready to go again. And yes, there are home scale versions available in limited markets. The problem is that the home scale versions are on the wrong end of that price scaling diagram shown in the video. Unless you have a very high demand application or much larger than average house, a lithium battery (or two) will likely be cheaper.

[@nicholaslandolina]

You don't have to have copper and aluminum wiring having a fire or lawsuit risk but youll be makeing it easy for a supplier and moving lawsuit somewhere else

[@AussieBobL]

A family member lives on a 42000 acre canola farm in pastoral Western Australia and they have just leased 250 of those acres to a Vanadium ore processing plant. I recently visited the farm and looked at the site which is part of the least profitable section of the farm. The ore is going to be trucked in from an iron ore mine which also contains Vanadium about 200 miles away. The reasons they are constructing the processing plant are - abundant supplies of natural gas are available via a large pipe line about 10 miles away. - Underground water not suitable for agriculture but good enough for ore processing is available locally - the property is about 40 miles from a large port where processed vanadium can be trucked to and shipped out from - depending on price the iron from the ore can also be sold. - a railway line exists between the mine, runs right through the proposed processing site and onto the port and once the processing plant scales up can replace the trucks. - concrete reinforcing rods (rebar) contain significant amounts of V which is what gives rebar its tensile strength. Rebar can be separated fro waste concrete and put through the processing plant to recover the V Once the processing plant is running a large solar array and Vanadium flow battery will be set up to replace the use of gas. The railway could also be electrified and the distances to the port are not outside the range of electric trucks to bring farm produce to the port saving huge amounts of diesel fuel used in the process.

[@arthurparry194]

I love this guy. Wish he was my chemistry teacher in school.we would have had a lot of fun

[@procactus9109]

If it works the. The LED would light up... Was there even a current limiter ? Did I miss seeing that LED actually light without CGI ?

[@willythemailboy2]

Seeing as it was a "metaphorical" battery that 1) didn't have a membrane of any type in the reaction cell and 2) almost certainly did not have actual vanadium compounds dissolved in concentrated sulfuric acid, I'm going to hazard to guess that it was just food coloring in water. Certainly I'd hope for some goggles and gloves if he was handling actual concentrated sulfuric acid.

[@playgroundchooser]

@@willythemailboy2 totally, didn't he even say something about it being a model?

[@procactus9109]

@@playgroundchooser models don't have to be inoperable

[@filonin2]

​​@@procactus9109The chemicals would be dangerous and it wouldn't work without a special membrane he does not have. It's a metaphor. Like a drawing. It's like you're complaining a whiteboard drawing of a circuit can't charge your phone.

[@procactus9109]

@@filonin2 lol.. I watch a lot on KZbin in all areas of science... If it's not real it's a joke, maybe the tech is real, but nothing in this video was... I know plenty of KZbin uploaders that would do this, since they do much more dangerous things than whatever that was meant to be.

[@philouzlouis2042]

At arround 6:00, You mention that capacity can be doubled by increasing the volume of the fluids of the compartiments by two; this is true if it is the same as the starting material. It can also be doubled by increasing the concentraction of the reducer or oxydizers by two (or more) until it reaches the maximum due to solubility issues or "activity" of the solute into the solution. I suppose that some flow batteries can work with a bottom layer of the undissolved salt; that will dissolve if the salt is consumed and converted into something else (as long as the cristals don't interact with the electrodes (touch or reduce electric flow). PHZ (PHILOU Zrealone from the Science Madness forum)

[@KouroshKhaje]

nice presentation. I like to add: more than 40% of the Vanadium-Vanadium Flow battery cost, is the Vanadium electrolyte and stack only contributes 20 to 30% max of the battery cost. Vanadium price is volatile due to the primary market which is the steel + catalyst industry. when energing technology arrives in the market the main problem is the source of material like Vanadium? + Because this electrolyte is water base ( aqueous ), in cold and hot climates performance has some issues ( in cold the battery needs heating support, and in hot conditions, the solubility shows some effect then the effect comes on battery performance and lower efficiency.)

[@htomerif]

I thought we were going to see an actual flow battery.

[@nicholaslandolina]

Why mix them together instead of keeping them sepearate

[@KaushikAdhikari]

So flow batteries need an element having a lot of oxidation states. This means one cannot select just anything. Must choose from the d and f block elements

[@thryce82]

watching this makes me regret not actually using my chemistry degree. thanks for putting out solid content

[@ZX81v2]

If these batteries are as easy as that to create, then you don't need "The Gods of CAPITALISM " as you call them. If everyone made them , then problem solved. The gods of capitalism are why we are in such a SShow right now.

[@TimeSurfer206]

I was thinking you were leading to the regeneration solution, pun intended, and I was right. And screw supporting the grid, I just want to support my trailer. I'm snooping around looking for things I can DIY. I'm about decided on Zinc Iodine Gravity Batteries.

[@nicholasrudloff]

I didn't see the LED turn on? Or was this just a show? An LED literally only needs 20mA to shine on its brightest so I was a bit shocked to not see it turn on. Also the statement you made about douboing the capacity was odd. U said to double lithium battery u need another battery. And then u said to double this liquid battery u just add more liquid. Surely u wouod have to double the liquid also? Not sure how that is an advantage over lithium

[@philouzlouis2042]

Ahhh Green Chemistry ;o) Very interesting to reread the past and basic principles of our ancestor chemists. (As a reference to your Haber-Bosch video on N2 and H2 to make NH3 and my comment on it ;o)) PHZ (PHILOU Zrealone from the Science Madness forum)

[@alexdunphy3716]

The efficiency claim is probably a lie by ommision for marketing hype. One step of this process might be 80%, say the energy actually hitting an individual cell to electricity in a lab test.

[@paulrodgers674]

now, if there were a DIY kit on the market, that let me build one, about the capacity of a standard car battery? I would ask Santa to bring me that,. Hook it up to a solar cell for recharging, and use it to run all my Christmas lights. Not about $$ really, about interesting fun stuff in the front-yard.

[@herzogsbuick]

ah yes, blue: the color of fake urine in commercials. and who could forget our friend yellow: the color of actual urine!

[@mr8ball1st]

With the costs we know that Lithium batteries have a shelf-life and will need to be disposed of. How do costs vary over time? Is it that flow batteries could have a high initial capital cost, but can last so much longer than lithium, that adding a time element to graph would bring that curve down.

[@LFTRnow]

5. Lithium is fairly rare and expensive, and the fluctuation in its price dramatically affects the overall cost of batteries made from it. Sodium-ion batteries should not have this issue as sodium is incredibly common (look in the ocean for example). Whether the sodium-ion batteries will have issues 1-3 will be interesting to see. I've heard they don't have the fire danger risk, but again - remains to be seen.

[@ILoveTinfoilHats]

Sodium has an even larger fire danger risk...

[@Ceo_Linux]

For this exact reason it wouldn't be suitable for a large portion of land near seas. (Take for instance japan, tsunamis are called that for a reason, and Fukushima taught us better)

[@smizmar8]

I love it how the dart landed on Fe. This is one of my favorite alternative batteries technologies! If I'm not wrong, don't we basically use this in our bodies?

[@lunkel8108]

What exactly are you referring to with that last sentence? We certainly use iron to transport electrons and I guess while they're "in transit" the electrons are being stored by the iron, but energy storage is not really the main purpose of cytochrome c and such.

[@ryanmcshane1695]

We do use vanadium in our bodies.

[@lunkel8108]

@@ryanmcshane1695 Do you have more info on that? It does have important biological functions in certain marine organisms but as far as I'm aware there is no known function for vanadium in mammals.

[@ryanmcshane1695]

@@lunkel8108lowers blood sugar levels and improves sensitivity to insulin in people with type 2 diabetes. Vanadium and chromium are important minerals for humans.

[@petevenuti7355]

I forget the channel name but there's this guy pretty much perfected the iron battery, apparently it's important not to have sodium in the system.

[@greenftechn]

Nice presentation. Lol'd at the phrase "gods of Capitalism".

[@charleshines2142]

Mining the metals in a lithium ion cell is not just environmentally but at least one metal which is cobalt is mined by child labor in Congo.

[@lautaromorales2903]

3:03 pervanadyl ion* 3:54 pervanadyl reacts with the electron and 2 protons to give vanadyl ion and water*

[@gabrielsireliangusteinhast9059]

Heavy metal in a jar of ..you know the problem😂

[@gregroberson220]

I've never heard of this. So cool!

[@RinksRides]

Ahh lithium fires, akin to the warm glow of a thermite grenade.

[@Caleb-lbj]

We went back to ancient Egyptian batteries

[@HalitÇelik-e7b]

gel battery. How can I make electrolyte?

[@perpetual4958]

Or run the pump twice as fast?

[@nickc8819]

Thanks for sharing.

[@zk9535]

Excelent info👍

[@SylviaRustyFae]

5:18 I was alrdy holdin a blowtorch for unrelated reasons when you got to this segment and i cudnt help but wonder... Shud i wait to watch the long story or just test the experiment myself :P I think i can wait the four mins or so left :p But if i had a battery closer at hand, maybe not

[@PralayMaity-z4d]

a GOOD ONE...🙂

[@Maestro-gh2ei]

Love yall content man

[@naxel37]

Love these videos

[@MalawisLilleKanal]

I think iron flow batteries have the highest potential simply because of the price. Hopefully the technical problems that exists will be solved in a reasonable manner. Not sure if potentially possible, but Ideally you would have a battery where you can add iron scraps to become part of the electrolyte. Imagine if you could use old tin cans when expanding your home-battery storage by some simple steps like heating them in the fireplace to remove zinc(or acid-bath) and plastic/lacquer, clean up and toss in an addition-chamber.

[@TheHiralis]

Is there a document or build design on how to make this?

[@tomholroyd7519]

Is there anything in the "Yes, You Can Try This At Home" category?

[@hrakss7605]

:)

[@Daniel-xv6xm]

Thank you. That was a fantastic explanation of flow batteries

[@Iowa599]

What is the divider that allows only protons to cross?

[@keithtidy186]

A carbon fibre membrane

[@mannyfernandez1713]

Sodium batteries could work for certain applications, also sand reservoirs

[@ryanmcshane1695]

When Wall Street finds out about this, VRFB investment will take off imo. It doesn’t cause toxic fires; that’s all I need to hear.

[@willythemailboy2]

Depends on whether they actually use concentrated sulfuric acid as the fluid. If so, a leak near anything organic could potentially lead to a hydrogen explosion and definitely to a toxic mess to clean up. Even a moderately sized leak would do serious damage to most common flooring materials, even concrete.

[@ryanmcshane1695]

@@willythemailboy2It’s diluted sulfuric acid mostly as far as I can read.

[@frankfahrenheit9537]

Not a single real cost calculation. What a bad video. Of course if the flow battery gets bigger and bigger you need to add more and more stacks. You remember, the expensive piece. I not only want big storage capacity, I also would want big electric delivery capacity.

[@vadymdykynshtein2896]

But you need a pump to make it work. Then what point of the battery ?

[@filonin2]

Like asking what's the point of a gas engine if it needs a fuel pump.

[@me0101001000]

There is another problem which you didn't mention, tied to something called Carnot's Limit. This limit states that a closed system can never pass a certain threshold of work efficiency and reversibility, which is determined by the speed of the process and the temperature at which each step occurs. Initially this limit was applied to engines, but it is applicable to any thermodynamic system. The main reason why flow batteries and fuel cells are potentially superior to conventional liquid state and even some solid state batteries at a large scale is because the batteries are much more bound by Carnot's Limit, due to them being "more closed" than the flow battery and fuel cell. Actually, a fuel cell is an open system, making Carnot's Limit irrelevant to its performance. And with regards to the flow battery, you could treat it as open as well, since the tanks are externally replaceable and replenishable.

[@majorfallacy5926]

I'm gonna need a source on that because both electrical and chemical energy are generally approximated as pure exergy. Carnots factor is for thermal power engines (if that's the correct translation)

[@me0101001000]

@@majorfallacy5926 the initial application was for thermal energy, that's correct. But the principles of thermodynamics apply to all forms of energy. I do have some books where I studied this from my undergrad. Advanced Batteries by Robert Huggins, and Introduction to the Thermodynamics of Materials by David Gaskell are great starting places. Though the latter is probably the dryest textbook I've ever had to work with, so fair warning for that.

[@majorfallacy5926]

@@me0101001000 The principles of thermodynamics apply yes, but in a practical sense (un)charging a battery barely produces entropy no matter the chemistry? (edit: apart from heat losses obviously) Also the wikipedia article for Carnot's theorem literally has a section dedicated to how it doesn't apply to electrochemical storage.

[@joachimfrank4134]

Even if some heat is produced when charging, this wouldn't be wasted in grid scale applications, because if it was much heat it could be used.

[@majorfallacy5926]

@@joachimfrank4134 Only to a degree, that's where Carnot actually comes in. At low temperatures, most of the exergy is lost. You can use it to heat greenhouses but that's about it.

[@Kenjiro5775]

No. They will never compete with existing chemistry.

[@tgeliot]

Is that really sulfuric acid you're handling without any eye protection?

[@filonin2]

No. Metaphorical acid.

[@JohnLeePettimoreIII]

iridium +8 iridium +3

[@willythemailboy2]

Iridium is almost comically rare in the earth's crust. The entire world mines under ten tons a year.

[@JohnLeePettimoreIII]

@@willythemailboy2 yep. The K-T boundary

[@seanc6128]

Where is lithium on that periodic table, y'know for comparison purposes? oh you didn't show that part... wonder why that could be. Oh there it is.

[@TroyRubert]

Hey yeah. That's very strange for a chemistry channel to show the table like that.

[@ACSReactions]

Great question! Lithium is the third element on the periodic table, directly below hydrogen! This means it has a single electron in its outer valence shell, so it forms bonds in a +1 oxidation state. Also our cloth periodic table turned out to be slightly too big for our whiteboard. Sorry!

[@majorfallacy5926]

This comments reads like it's insinuating that the video is obfuscating some truth, but I honestly have no idea what? That lithium is lighter? That was mentioned.

[@LFTRnow]

Those elements were removed for cost-saving measures.

[@ezgolf1764]

@@majorfallacy5926man the original comment is so fucking confusing, they’re making out to be some kind of conspiracy??? and it’s just lithium

[@sebastienl2140]

avoiding cost of recycling and power density making this video an sponsoring ad. ENR need high power density because solar energy need charging rate 4-6 times the continious discharge power

[@filonin2]

Wut

[@zacbergart6840]

could you cover the so-called "rust" batteries? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_redox_flow_battery

[@ireallyreallyhategoogle]

So the answer is "Meh".