Fiora's Rework - How A Perfect Concept Was Ruined

[@Fossilfighters123]

riot’s whole concept for her was fencing french lady

[@danielsolyarikov7908]

La Creatura

[@Dexuz]

@@danielsolyarikov7908 Quaso

[@yomatokamari]

and why I played league on her release date.

[@felicesenemongabamortoni9576]

@@danielsolyarikov7908why are you speaking Italian sir😂

[@Intoxicated4768]

@@felicesenemongabamortoni9576what do you mean? It’s Spanish!

[@hozimina]

I like how even on the pie chart you showed, Skarner is still forgotten...

[@BoiiHeadlesss-cj3ps]

Oh he did him dirty lmao

[@Deltastream7567]

I mean, it’s consistent with how Riot’s treated him up to this point

[@trenza2566]

i couldn't find shaco too

[@BoiiHeadlesss-cj3ps]

@@trenza2566 who ??

[@smoogieoogie]

skarner isnt real

[@amysakalov6915]

One thing to add is that her rework came during the Juggernaut era for League. With her rework being developed along side the Juggernaut patch Riot likely had a skewed perception on things. They knew big tanky beef stick champs were going to be on the rise and so gave her a tool to deal with those champions without really thinking it through.

[@Ghosta085]

im surprised how you didnt go indepth about how potent of a counterpick she is to the majority of top laners. so many of them have predictable cc or 1 ability that needs to be dodged, or are just tanks that cant do anything about fiora in their dreams. people dont just hate fiora because of maxhealth true damage, they hate fiora because most of the people who have to play against her dont have a hope in hell to beat her.

[@alex2005z]

Until you realize fiora doesnt actually counter tanks until 2 items. So by the time she counters them, lane is over

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@alex2005z She hard bullies every tank besides a good Poppy until the first recall cause they can't tank shit with a doran's shield, so if the Fiora is decent enough she wins lane in the first 4 waves through wave manipulation (like most top matchups), then she proceeds to snowball and you're just fucked. And even if she can't kill tanks, she'll just go even and outscale them anyways, so in sidelane the Tank can never lane cause she'll shred both the towers AND the tank standing under tower.

[@alex2005z]

@samuelcavalcanti3345 if you cant survive 4 waves while being slightly weaker then it's on you for being shit at the game. You can't win the lane in the first 4 waves unless they cooperate. And if you pick a champion that spikes in the midgame and do nothing with that spike you deserve to lose. You talk as if fiora can simply sit back and scale while the enemy team gets soul.

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@alex2005z If you think you need to kill the enemy laner to win in the first 4 waves this already says you know nothing of top lane lmfao. Do you even knwo what happens in that situation? The advantage you get and the disavantage you put the enemy into? No, that's why you're talking shit. Shes got 52% winrate emerald+ and at masters+ it's almost 54%, Fiora IS strong as fuck right now. And yea, Fiora CAN just sit back and scale, cause if she does so then her jungler wont waste time ganking top, so what guarantees HER jungler wont take soul instead? If the enemy top TPs to a fight she'll just take 2-3 plates and get fed anyways? If he keeps TPing then it's a free tower and a fuck ton of gold. -If the enemy gets soul then her jungler gets voidgrubs and her split push is EVEN STRONGER, what now? People usually get soul around 20-30 minutes, by that time if the enemy gives up voidgrubs you'd be needing 2-3 people just to stop her in side lane, whats your soul doing now when you can't stop Fiora in sidelane and your cant abuse your soul cause your team is always playing 4v3? "If you pick a champion that spikes in the midgame..." cherrypicking situations to make it seem like you have a point, how classic. Like most champs who spike Midgame arent either skill matchup or Fiora favored lmfao. Werent you talking about tanks? Midgame is around 2-3 items and you said Fiora beats them on 2 items, so now you cant do anything at midgame anymore? The only tanks that have a good winrate against Fiora are Malphite and Poppy and it's for a reason.

[@alex2005z]

@samuelcavalcanti3345 1: pls enlighten me in this amazing trick you have to win a lane in the first 4 waves while only being a little bit stronger than your opponent. 2: almost all tanks spike in the midgame. I'm not cherry picking. And 3 items isn't midgame. From the moment they get bramble to 2 items they beat fiora. That's a plenty big window to make sometime of. If the enemy top TPs to a fight and fiora is left to push that's going to be insane amounts of gold for the enemy team, which means fiora's team can't hold 4v4 anymore while the tank hold fiora on sides. And without vision you can't splitpush

[@c0n33r]

Old Lunge was targetted. It was just another button to mash.

[@Ron-gh4dr]

I only played her like 2 times and even I remember her lunge being targeted

[@lillyie]

fiora has the tools to fuck you up on everything. you only have one potent cc ability? she can riposte it. trying to kite her? she has a low cooldown dash that practically resets if it hits anything whatsoever. trying to build resistances? she deals max health true damage so no amount of health or armor will help.

[@Dexuz]

At least she cannot prevent you from uninstalling.

[@AGSTER]

@@Dexuz she parried my uninstall help

[@SluttyFiora]

@nathanwaterser8218 True damage is calculated based on a percentage of max HP, so it can never deal 80% of your max HP as true damage

[@Dexuz]

@@SluttyFioraSource?

[@SluttyFiora]

@@Dexuz search the passive detailed, I just sent you a link from the wiki and KZbin deleted it for "cyberbullying"

[@Theheadgiver]

5.3k damage with 88% being true damage = 4.6k true damage, balanced af

[@augustusmaximus11]

Single target damage where you need to dance around your opponents.

[@IAteDaBaby]

​@@augustusmaximus11 no way you just try to justify 4k of true damage ☠️

[@decidueyezealot8611]

@augustusmaximus11 no champion with the capability of dealing thousands of true damage will ever be balanced no matter how its dealt

[@coolchrisable]

@@decidueyezealot8611only expection is vayne because you can atleast hard CC her and she pops like a ballon fiora jsut says lol no than does the Uno reverse card to you

[@dracotoy]

​@@decidueyezealot8611 chogath is pretty easy to play around

[@johanndavid6287]

THE FRENCH

[@AGSTER]

Playing against Fiora is like playing with time bomb, with every second you lose more and more advantages against her, especially if you are tank. And you basically cant do anything against it

[@aaronscott7467]

On the contrary, she can be zoned off minions and kept from being allowed gold to build her damage with. Not to say that it's easy, just that it's doable. Unlike how it would be if her damage was XP based.

[@stelio4874]

give me one champion that can zone a fiora of cs without having a major level/item lead@@aaronscott7467

[@arminarlelt7471]

Tanks are actually fine against her early. Mundo, Ornn, K'Sante, Tham Kench are good against her. She only starts becoming strong at 2 items.

[@HSE331]

Tanks when they can't lock in a 0 intetaction champ and win at champ select screen.

[@aaronscott7467]

@@HSE331 as a tank main who only plays interactive champions, I find that offensive.

[@idontlikekmart5582]

I will never forget that one Cho'gath game where between my stacks, heartsteel, garogyle's shield (r.i.p), and steraks I had essentially worked my way to almost 20k health. I was the only issue on the enemy team, everyone else was behind but if I tanked properly we could eek out victories in team fights I fought for it, played well, won my lane, and did everything correctly on my end Only for the enemy Fiora mid that was inting all game thats was a whole THREE GOD DAMN ITEMS BEHIND ME to begin assassin bursting me and we just lost. An effective 20,000 health with god knows how much armor and MR to only last 2-4 seconds in a team fight That match broke me, Fiora is the only champion to actually make me dodge games, if I lock in an hp scaling tank and the enemy goes Fiora I just close the game. In a game where you can't change your character counterpicks that hard should not exist, period.

[@bamgbose3309]

that sounds traumatizing

[@AlryFireBlade]

Yeah fiora dont care what you pick... squishy tank idc it dies in max 5 vitals.

[@bonticabogdan9961]

While i totally understand your frustration it just means your team was bad, you have no job fighting fiora as Cho unless you straight out eat her. Sidenote if enemy had a Vayn wouldn't it have been the same though? By the same deffinition a 20k Tank should not exist in this game :))

[@tminusboom2140]

​@@bonticabogdan9961Vayne true damage is actually way, way slower than a mid-late game Fiora. Silver Bolts doesn't scale with anything and is a three hit passive, where a full build Fiora can literally do 100% max HP true damage in four hits depending on items.

[@tminusboom2140]

Also the worst counterpick is Sylas into Malphite, which is such a hard counterpick it was the single greatest win rate counterpick in three positions at once.

[@danha3107]

I knew where this was going before clicking on it lmao and you're so right. Idk why they still think %max HP true damage is okay in any sense of the term as 4 hits is basically a guaranteed kill and with how fast she can hit all 4 vitals, she's no longer a duelist

[@PhailRaptor]

The problem is they keep giving it scaling. True Damage should just about never scale, and when it does scale, it should be very low scaling. That's why Vayne works reasonably well. It's a fixed %, and it takes 3 auto-attacks in a row to proc.

[@gr4ve686]

If they changed it to % max health physical damage, everyone would benefit, with the slight problem that tanks, the one thing she's the best at shutting down, would feel a whole lot better in that matchup. Maybe the passive does % max health physical, while the ult converts it to flat % max health true damage that only scales with the ult's level? Make it feel like a proper ultimate without turning Fiora into an assassin for tanks

[@jonathanrussell8998]

Even making it magic damage could be fine, she would be hard to build against because mixed damage but a lot easier to build against than she is now. There’s items that give both armor and MR, so…

[@BrutalSalamander1]

Or make her ult similar to Yasuo in that it gives pen specifically against bonus armor for the duration. That would make the ability effective against tanks but more or less neutral against squishies

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

I'll take literally anything over %health true damage. Make her a whole new fucking damage type called French damage or whatever with no items associated with it, and at least I could build health against it. What we have now is the worst possible option.

[@dragonboytsubasa]

What if the passive was still % Max Health true damage but the ad scaling was removed? That would make things more manageable, right?

[@jonathanrussell8998]

@@dragonboytsubasa It’s a solution but I don’t think it’s the right one, you still have the core design issue that there is literally 0 way to itemize against it.

[@ragnarok1984p]

This reminded me of discussions back in the day when everyone complained how Fiora deals damage while untargetable every 50 sec with her point and click ult but Master Yi getting penta after penta dealing damage while untargetable every 1-3 sec with his point and click Q was and still is perfectly fine . Balance ladies and gentlemen

[@erlingamundsen1137]

The thing that irks me on Fiora is how potent her W is, irregardless of countering cc. The AS slow makes it such strong tool in almost any ad matchup, and in my opinion removes a lot of the fun risk/reward playing against her. IMO they can honestly buff Fioras CC on W, if they gut the slow and AS

[@baptistecochennec5956]

If they buff it she become useless in any match-up where is opponents have no/unreactable cc. Dodge the w it's not like it's targeted

[@AGSTER]

@@baptistecochennec5956 oh, i need to dodge abilities? Wow! Why is everyone complaining about Illaoi E then, if you dodge her e shes useless!

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@AGSTER because illaoi has way less cd, makes you insta lose the trade, go out faster, has a bigger hitbox and if she has 6 even if you dodge it she can r when you engage and kill you? Maybe idk tho

[@AGSTER]

@@baptistecochennec5956 so Fiora W doesnt make you insta lose the trade? What are we talking about? Fiora with trinity force and all the items that give movement speed makes almost impossible to run away from her

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@AGSTER you can like dash away if you have one or cc after that to run... If you are under your tower in the laning phase she can't do a whole lot... Like that's not even comparable. Oh and if you face a fiora in the sidelane with nothing to hide while she has multiple item yea you die same story with Jax, Camille, trynda, yone any duelist

[@thagrandafroduelist5705]

She would need a rework to get rid of the max health true damage. The actual point of it is to create a fixed output. She's a fully melee, single-target, top-lane fighter. She has to be able to kill Ornn in a reasonable time frame, but if she deals enough physical damage to do so, she's one shotting Ashe. I'm a Fiora man, so trust me---squishies don't want that version, and any loss of damage, considering the above and the lack of guarantees, and she's unplayable.

[@JohnYourMama]

no one can justify max health true damage

[@JustAViewer44]

Whenever I get autofilled as top. And I go against a Fiora I start to cry.

[@authenticbaguette6673]

I play exclusively top lane, and I still cry when I have to go against fiora... at least urgot can't tower dive me every time his ult is up -_-

[@Juria1987]

Max health true damage is the worst idea they ever came up with. True damage should not ever have percentages near it. And it very much shouldn't be scaling.

[@KawaiiAzusa]

"If the champ gets free stats outside of their passive, it usually means the champion doesn't do enough" So like 80% of all toplaners? Free armour pen, AD, Attack Speed, Scaling damage with health, % armour and magic resistance, you name it

[@baptistecochennec5956]

Legit every champ in that game get free Stat...

[@KawaiiAzusa]

@@baptistecochennec5956 Stats through level up yeah. And top Laners get way more of that anyway. I'm talking about something like Darius e giving armour pen. Which is the point of what Vars was talking about

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@KawaiiAzusa yes pretty much every champ gets free Stat just from their spells I was not talking about lvl up trough Stat

[@KawaiiAzusa]

@@baptistecochennec5956 what are you even talking about? In other roles getting free passive stats is an exception, for top Landers it's almost the norm. Where does Smolder get free stats? Renata? Ahri? Viego? What Vars is talking about is called a Band Aid, free stats so the champ functions. See Tham Kench HP damage scaling on his ult, Aatrox increased healing and extra AD, Darius Armor pen, K'sante or Ornn (while a passive, it's one of FOUR passives) extra Armor and MR

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@KawaiiAzusa pretty much every adc gets free Stat either atk speed, crit, range, ms, etc. Every bruiser or tank jng have the same thing. Tank support also gets bonus free Stat like leona, alistar. So yeah....

[@haihuanlin97]

As a Camille player I never found Fiora lane too egregious. She's fine when your champ can match her dueling, she's just infuriating when used as a counterpick

[@lelandwhitehead56]

brother you just listed another horsewoman as the counter to the horsewomen

[@walkelftexasranger]

@@lelandwhitehead56 You can beat Fiora with most Top laners - Darius, Wukong, Jax, Gwen, Aatrox to name few. People act like Fiora is some insane unkillable monster, but that's only the case if she counterpicked you and you're forced to side lane against her.

[@lelandwhitehead56]

you misunderstand the problem with the horsewomen.@@walkelftexasranger

[@walkelftexasranger]

@@lelandwhitehead56 There's no problem with them. They're solid champions that take skill to play and greatly reward you for playing them well.

[@vitortakara7090]

@@walkelftexasranger they are champions that have the cope of "skill" but they don't really need that much skill if they are overtuned 90% of the time

[@OrangutanPeeper]

Fiora’s kit is well designed around the idea of a duelist, since her abilities match what you might see in fencing. She also should have true damage in my opinion, as it makes sense for her to gain it when striking openings, or in this case, vitals, but should it be max health true damage? Absolutely not

[@joehudson7007]

Should it bypass armor, yes, but it shouldn't bypass all armor. Fiora's character fantasy doesn't need to outright ignore the tank character fantasy. If she had a flat armor pen for those hits, not percent armor, but her passive acts like you have, idk, 60 less armor, it'd feel right, the tank still takes less damage, but sue still is finding their weaknesses, their weaknesses just aren't as little as bare flesh. Otherwise, have it just be flat true damage, then squishies can complain more. I just don't believe max hp% true damage has any place in this game, and that extends to vayne, there's a reason they had to rework jungle items like 5 times because of her.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@joehudson7007 if you change it she might become even stronger, she is a duelist, so she need to win the sidelane and that include killing tank. So even if you change it she might have bigger true dmg, or physical dmg, etc making her stronger agaisnt squishy or earlier in the game. I understand not liking the idea of Max health true dmg but Camille doesn't have it and she still destroy tank because she has big number by default, same for yone yasuo trynd and their high ad+atk speed+crit, gp, Jax, master yi, etc

[@joehudson7007]

@@baptistecochennec5956 depends on the number, but tanks should never take as many hits to kill as a squishy, which percent max hp true damage does, at least squishies tend to have mobility to avoid the crap flora does

[@52blue72]

I think she'd be just fine if they went with flat true damage rather than percent. It could still scale with AD and would make logical sense. If she gets a stab into your vitals then no amount of armor will protect you but having more health will make it so those vitals drain you of strength much less quickly.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@52blue72 would make her stronger against anyone that's not a top tank after 3 item

[@matthewmoran1866]

I think it's fair that Fiora gets max hp true damage. It's not really true that %hp true damage has no counter play, you just can't build against it. Fiora is a perfect example of how you can play around it, since she can only proc it from a certain direction (bar her ult, but Ults are allowed to be kind of bullshit anyway). It's also not really fair to say that her ult has teamfight utility. Even when ahead, she builds straight damage so she's a glass cannon in fights. She's definitely powerful and scales like a monster, but when she's behind, she has nothing but non-existent damage. She's just a feast or famine champion, simple as. She's allowed to be a monster when she gets ahead because she's useless if you put her behind.

[@flunks8127]

I love how given the opportunity Vars will without a shadow of a doubt say seldom whenever he can

[@alexursu4403]

Does he insist that he seldomly says seldom ?

[@leventesos8040]

Let's not forget about the first iteration of conquer when fully stacked you dealt true dmg instead of healing yourself. It was "fun" on Fiora

[@Spin793]

You dealt true damage AND healed yourself, but I think you overestimate how much that helps Fiora. When half your damage is already true anyways, the extra true damage you got out of conqueror was only half as efficient as if you weren't doing any true damage.

[@InnerTriggerer]

The she right to the concept of "Perfect Duelist". The concept is there is no "Defense" or no "Way Out" against her, only way to deal with her is "Dueling her". She have low CD dash, multiple slows and movement speed burst. The problem is that you cannot realistically outplay "True Damage Percent HP, *Burst* your 90% hp with in 2 seconds". The true damage percent HP is not broken with right implementations, but her ult is poorly designed.

[@cye2310]

True, her Ult makes her an assassin, and not a duelist.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

I think her passive points being slightly smaller would be interesting. Like having 6/8 points around you but keeping the ult as 4 would keep the identity while making her have more windows of genuine weakness

[@Hi-lu5vf]

not sure how much that would change; seems like it would just be rng at that point because fiora can reroll vitals

[@the_last_ballad]

​@Hi-lu5vf you could say the same about the current Fiora, as she can still reroll them until it's accessible(and so can you by leaving range and coming back

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

@@Hi-lu5vf it makes avoid getting hit in a vital more interactive than just standing against a wall. Fiora has to be more accurate w/o ult

[@Asuhaa]

As a fiora main, “% health true damage” is the most beautiful thing ever

[@elrond7887]

go away with that noise

[@truetritonien9338]

agreed

[@ItsJoeHut]

tl:dw: Vars ranting about %max health true damage lol

[@cye2310]

Yeah, he's definitely a cancerous tank player. He thinks that we should remove this beautiful counter to the disease which is being a tanky champion.

[@JohnYourMama]

@@cye2310 lmao bro is actually trying to justify 5k true damage in 0.6 seconds while being 3 items behind

[@mistermaky01]

I h8 fiora because you can't run away from her, you can't chase her, you can't out damage her, you can't cc her and you can't build against her. You have to either outplaye her or get some else to help take her down.

[@cye2310]

Because she's a duelist, so if you run away, then she should be able to chase you down for being a coward.

[@boldisordorin9010]

13:30 oh my god that was clever, i didn't think of this interaction

[@aemperorgamedev]

Look! Cool clever gameplay! I’m sure Ornn didn’t think about it either and if I was him I wouldn’t even be mad! Cool concept but ruined by true damage case in point.

[@donkylefernandez4680]

My favorite part of old Fiora was one shotting the enemy team feeling like I had limited resources aside from damage. One fed Graves later and as I'm ulting him he shoots the krugs once and goes from 10-15% hp to 80-85%. As soon as my ult ended I was the one getting one shot since Graves can combo himself as a trap.

[@ACMaNNeN99]

As a old fiora main. I think that her new kit seems way more fun in the freedom it provides with movement and outplay potential with parry

[@Oscar97o]

I think that's generally the opinion of the people who play the champions he talks about.

[@the_last_ballad]

Well duh, who _doesn't_ like having the deck stacked in your favor? How can having more movement than a fair amount of the cast, and the ability to deny literally anything from the enemy team with their only counterplay is to hope you waste it on a subpar usage so they have a chance of landing their big damage/cc abilities, ever _not_ be fun for the person playing. Absolutely no one looked at Fiora's design and went "this is bad because it looks unfun to play".

[@infiniteearth6996]

Yeah the kit is incredible just the damage type is completely unfair

[@Celmondas]

I think when talking about rito getting more creative with champion designs it is important to consider that they stopped releasing a new champ every 2 weeks in 2013 or so

[@juanpablobecerra2779]

TLDR: Fuck max % health true damage. Any champion that has that abomination in the game is automatically a nightmare to play against, specially as a tank or bruiser.

[@cye2310]

And? Having more tanky and bruiser champions is good? Fuck off, it's good to have a counter for this kind of cancer.

[@cye2310]

It would be very VERY boring if most of the fights all comes down to who's more tanky. And all I have for that is, fuck off.

[@DSMister]

Yup, you hit the nail on the head. That is the single biggest issue that I have with her. It would be far more bearable if it was percent max health physical damage, or even flat true damage, cuz at least it's not nearly as punishing as it is now.

[@brosam_]

Personally I think making it physical damage would kind of destroy her whole idea of nuking tanks, maybe magic damage so it's harder to itemize against her? Although that would mean the new magic shield item kaenic rookern would be an insane buy against her. Personally idk what I'd make it, I'm just not a fan of max % health true damage lmao

[@volcanicviper5984]

imo her passive should be %current health instead of %max health. she'll still take out a chunk of your health when youre full but as it scales down the less health you have, you have more of a chance to fight back instead of just exploding. she gets to keep her true damage, but doesnt do 1k true damage when youre at 20% hp

[@meneither3834]

Idk man, as a top main that doesn't play any of the horsewomen, I like going against them, makes for interesting games.

[@risy95]

I can't forget when I pressed R to get my first ever pentakill, but then my teammate flashed onto the last target to deny it. I was waiting for the perfect moment when all were together to press one button... :(

[@giovannicampostrini6309]

finally somebody talk about fiora big problem, and i think the same, just a change in the true damage turning it into magic or physical damage would fix the entire kit, still is surprising how some people in the comments try to "justify" Fiora saying things like "if you lose is skill issues" i mean like try playing any tank against her and you would see, even ksante have problems dealing with that monster

[@moshrom3473]

Naaah K'sante is the only champ in the game broken enough to be able to deal with her. He can W through her riposte, throw her half the map away an one shot her with his billion dashes, unstoppable windows, CC, non-existent cooldowns and damage than scales on MR and Armor. It would be a skill matchup at best.

[@alex2005z]

What a great idea. Im sure everyone will love seeing fiora do 200% max hp dmg. Because if you change it from true dmg to physical/magic dmg, you have to buff the numbers massively. So instead of being a duelist, she is now yone

[@giovannicampostrini6309]

@@alex2005z ? That not have any sense, and there isn't another thing to do to her passive more than literally changing it, and the % health damage can be tanked by building sheer resistances without alot of health, isn't that hard

[@alex2005z]

@@giovannicampostrini6309 if you make it physical dmg instead of true dmg, then numbers need to be massively increased for it to do significant damage. Which then means she becomes a bad assassin rather than a duelist, since being able to deal with tanks is necessary to be a duelist.

[@giovannicampostrini6309]

@@alex2005z why a assasin? She would be able to deal with tanks anyway just making it a little more fair taking out the true damage, and still holding my point what other brillant idea of a change can repair fiora outside of changing the true damage?

[@Bsebt]

Perfect timing, the end of my work shift and the start of vars video

[@Unoriginal0n3]

Going to be honest, the only thing I remember about old Fiora was hard countering her as Teemo. Mind games with faked autos for the first couple of minutes to bait out Es was fun while it lasted, but then you went back and got a chain shirt or two, and what little she *could* do against you went up in a cloud of funny smelling smoke.

[@Dalton-ke9rw]

wait at 12:01 shouldn't malzahars spell shield blocked that sett W wtf happened

[@veroku_]

same question

[@maciejkleszczynski9808]

When full build Fiora (300 ad) jumps at you immidietly procing her passive and then uses her ultimate and triggers the passive another 4 times she deals 75% max health true damage. I wish it was physical damage ignoring part of your armor so damage reduction like Exhaust, Alistar R, Warwick W, Plated Steelcaps, Anathemas etc. still reduced the damage

[@spookyface4304]

What I hate most is that fiora players INSIST she is a hard champ when most people above gold can win with her easily. Like sure she CAN have a high skill ceiling but her skill floor is so laughably low.

[@GiRR007]

I like percent max health true damage. Fuck tanks, fuck building health and defense. FIGHT

[@F-Tier_Physique]

I really enjoyed old fiora.

[@dtstar331]

Imo, Fiora, Vayne, Gangplank and Camille true damage should be changed to physical, even if it means they'll get buffed True damage, in concept, is end-all-be-all and, as such, should be incredibly limited and under heavy conditions If a champion, that wants to rush you down, deals damage you simply cannot build against, you're going to have a terrible experience

[@cerulean5032]

You can build against normal true damage tho, it's specifically max health% true damage you can't build against.

[@tiagolopes4687]

people overreacte when they see they took half of dmg true dmg but forget when they get killed by an ap or ad assassin with full pen is doing true dmg to them it just appers red or blue in the dmg chart

[@gingerdude3666]

Learning trading patterns against Fiora has been one of the most frustrating experiences for me in top lane. Intuition says that when a champion uses their only defensive tool without blocking anything, you should be able to punish them, but Fiora is the only exception. The amount of 1v1s I've barely lost because she just throws W at me without blocking anything, but the damage and cripple are so powerful, is too many to count.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

Frustrating but you need to learn to dodge it or bait it and using that high cd it's not free

[@cherno8336]

don't get hit by her w maybe?

[@walkelftexasranger]

We need more champions like Fiora who aren't just "Let me uga buga kill you real quick with my wholesome statchecker" That champ forces you to play better or you lose and that's a good thing.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@walkelftexasranger no but apparently "learn to dodge fiora w" is a bad advice in this comment section

[@walkelftexasranger]

@@baptistecochennec5956 Don't want to be mean, but majority of LoL community is not even in Emerald.

[@SENPAI.Popaii]

man i totally forgot about fiora's old splash art. it looked 10x better but the same way they ruined darius splash art. riot really is a failure..

[@valnovanoth]

Dude that ult was broken, they either had to nerf it or rework her completely

[@cye2310]

I don't get why they didn't realize this thing. Bias really does cloud our judgment.

[@cye2310]

I don't know what he's smoking for saying that the Ult was fine.

[@noamias4897]

Fiora has the greatest concept and worst execution of any champ. The fantasy of parrying and dodging while attacking weak spots is fantastic but in the end both playing and fighting her comes down to button mashing and unfair advantages from max health true damage, no dash CD and her W cripple and slow that makes attacking or escaping basically impossible even if she doesn't parry anything The one thing I feel works against Fiora is that she has no "get off me" tool, defense or clear escape and all her pressure is front loaded, so she's pretty easy to stomp if you somehow get fed enough. But that's also just another problem in her design

[@cye2310]

Fiora is fine. She is meant to be the Grand Duelist so it makes sense for her to hit vitals and deal max percent health, since it's a vital. And what's wrong with spamming abilities? I never seen anyone complain about Lee Sin before.

[@Kinkarus02502]

As makkr0 puts on his bible for Ornn Matchups "BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA BAN FIORA"

[@ttalentlessl]

amen

[@JohnYourMama]

amen indeed

[@mrmacedon]

Never forget old fiora ult, It was perfect

[@max-potato-muncher]

Rage bait?

[@dirtymike3329]

It was so fun

[@Dexuz]

Just play Juggernaut

[@onetwopikachu8122]

If i remember correctly I think Jax's counter strike could dodge her ult?

[@blacklight1104]

@@onetwopikachu8122 Teemo blind as well, iirc.

[@misgeklordalltrained]

For a time, Fiora was my favorite matchup as urgot, because of how much of a skill check the lane was. But as I started facing more and more Fioras, I just started to feel awful. No matter how ahead I was, no matter how hard I won lane, eventually she'd melt me with %max hp true damage

[@elton3470]

My buddy named his daughter Fiora Rose to show how much of a Fiora main he is. He still plays League but was so disappointed when Fiora was reworked 😆😆

[@gamingadmiral9796]

Riposte was amazing for laning. The about of pressure you could exert by waiting for someone to get some poke in with an auto and slapping that back with riposte was huge. It also did triple effort in certain match ups like nasus and garen when you could block their Q which was a huge amount of dmg

[@felipercalvo]

%max health true damage works as something very situational and sporadic to use. Vayne's entire kit is based on her %max HP true damage, how frail she is, the need to atk 3 times, the inability to change targets, the fact that this damage does not scale with ad. But fiora's %maxhp true damage being simply an extra that scales scales with her AD? That was simply insane

[@Fish-vs6jf]

I'd like to add some nuance to your analysis of her Q. You mentioned that "unlike her modern Q, her old Q could be cast twice". While it's true that you can't literally double cast her current Q, it still retains some of that identity, because if her modern Q hits a target the cooldown gets reduced by 50%. Interestingly, this allows some extra skill expression; for example, if i'm running away, I can choose whether to Q directly towards my tower, or whether I should angle it differently to hit a minion with it for the cooldown reduction.

[@metrux321]

Yeah, fiora is really cool as concept and even to play against on the first few levels... But after a while it just becomes irritable sighing.

[@gabrielalistair8948]

I feel like fiora is balanced, her late game is kinda stupid but so are so many champion's. You say that the problem is her %maxhp true dmg but i feel like if she had regular true dmg or physical dmg the numbers needed to compensate would be ridiculous and i can guarantee she would act be even more broken. As you say vayne has to hit her target 3 times but she has way bigger range, invisibility, and higher att speed overall (without the animation cancels) without mentioning that she can hit the oponent from whatever direction wich means vayne can prock her dmg more consistently moreover, fioras vitals take a while to apear once you hit them, more time than it takes for vayne to hit you 3 times late game (although i guess if she alternates between diferent people's vitals its faster wearas vayne can only apply silver bolts to one ennemy... maybe fiora would be better with a kindred style passive where she choses who she puts her vitals on and by default its the first one she gets in range of. This act sounds rly fun and would make her more skill expressive though she is alr a ton), what makes fiora feel unfair is her ult that gives her 5 vitals instantly (1 +4), but then again her job is to win any 1v1 so the fact she can do that is normal, I feel like fiora is kind of like assasin vayne, she specialises in killing one target or targets that are alone, wearas vayne is more of a teamfighter, vayne deals way more dmg on the long run, fiora specialises on killing one person fast but she deals less dmg after her ult if out. if multiple people focus her, she can only parry cc once and she can only use her ult once so she becomes way less of a threat. Now I will admit i hate playing vs her in light of me being able to do fk all abt her (im a anivia main btw) but i dont think she is broken. I love your videos even tho i dont always agree with the opinion (this one included) KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK 😊.

[@man_ham_aslume484]

I think that if Fiora's passive dealt Flat td or %hp magic or %hp phisical dmg she would be actually fine

[@walkelftexasranger]

%Magical seems fair, %Physical would make her terrible, since Armor items are way too good.

[@houseofmurder]

i think it might be fine staying true damage if it was % bonus hp instead of max

[@Gojiradogzillagodzilla]

@@houseofmurder Or just make her passive do Flat true damage that scales with AD, this way at least you can tank more if you have health.

[@ArcadianCatharsis]

If the ultimate didn't immediately reveal 4 points but it'd level up with time, and also just make it so it shows 4/5 weak points in a short consecutive amount of time, one after other, where you don't always gave a granted 4 stacks procked immediately because they won't always show up on the same side of the enemy. That would be cool

[@noishfanboy1141]

5:50 aint no way no one saw what that lulu was saying in all chat

[@duytran9086]

If they wanna balance her passive, then split it into two part. One part is %HP true dmg that scales only with levels (maybe 3-7%), another part is %HP physical dmg that scales with bonus AD (maybe 2% base and scales by 1% per 30 bonus AD). So now she can have that true dmg without it being opressive, and stacking armor is still useful against her.

[@alex2005z]

That makes her useless. For a passive to do the same damage against a squishy late game it would need to scale 2% per 25 bonus ad. So you make her an assassin, not a duelist

[@thedargon6899]

If you think about it jax has had both a visual and gameplay update recently so jax is essentially a vgu

[@justincando1]

I still miss flora she was the first chamo I got a penta kill with

[@justincando1]

Almost as bad as I miss old roka

[@paulfeeder4262]

the akali comparison is great. in the early game both playing and playing against them feels interactive and like both sides need to try to do stuff, but in mid to late game(and when they get ult) a lot of that gets lost to the most effective strategy available; learning one combo like akalis r e or the various fiora proc ult fast combos, that makes it hard, if not imposible to react as the opponent and thus also takes away from the skill expression that makes them fun in the early game, as the champ starts to come down more and more to just practicing the combo, and less and less about the dance around their respective passives. i feel that for both of them their ult replaces their passive and in both cases the passive is interresting, requires skill and can be mittigated somewhat by awareness of it and the ult does big dmg and drasticly lowers the reliance on the passive. i feel that both their ults need reworking. like if fiora couldnt give you 4 vitals shed be unable to really combo u without you being able to react, as shd need to proc at least a few vitals to kill you, giving you as much time to react as it takes her to figure out where the vital is(and triggering it but that time gets reduced by how good the player is), as opposed to current fiora that just needs to ult u and the proc the vitals fast, thus enabeling her to reduce the time to proc the vitals to such low amounts that reacing gets incredibly hard.

[@fvb7]

I have few moments more glorious than riposting a warded Malphite Ult gank and getting a double. That is the kind of high that made playing a game like league continue to happen.

[@neonsamurai4604]

I miss Fioras blade waltz but new Fiora is clearly superior and she’s my top main.

[@cye2310]

Blade Waltz feels more like a Katarina assassin type shit than a duelist so I'm glad they changed that and gave her a more fitting Ult for her.

[@maxtyzzler7666]

If they did change her passive I believe they'd change it to be Flat true damage scaling with level and a small%BAd ratio it'd make it so she can still fight tanks slowly picking at their hp weaving around their abilities and you'd be able to build around it to probably prevent 90% of her damage from it being *Almost* entirely Physical

[@mia_c_21573]

Something not covered here: Fiora was released during the peak of crit item’s power and before the whole item system was reworked to enable AD casters and melee AD carries as a play style. She had to be balanced around having a 120% AS steroid and access to a dramatically stronger version of Infinity Edge. Thats why she didn’t have … any real abilities. If she had nice things (cc, a cleanse, the current riposte) in tandem with her AS and season 2 crit items … she would have been completely insane. This is some pretty old discourse - back in the day “how to make melee ad carries” was a big point of discussion.

[@sandu9779]

Her W being used as a initiation (so that a lot of people can't trade after) says a lot about her design

[@ZZValiant]

Her concept is sooo cool and unique and it's actually crazy how "easy" she would be to make way less frustrating: just get rid of her true damage and the attackspeed slow on W, lmao

[@nononono-n2j]

love the video but 10:53 when he said Fiora had no team fight Voyboy run it down in 1 v4 or 5 that not on the champ but earlier he said that it could do 2000 with ult that could hit all 5. i did play old fiora if you had a team that was willing to fight when you. it was almost a free win teamfight. since her ult hit everyone and would do good dmg, even in the clip he put voyboy is doing half of a ez health and he didnt have a team but other then that he right.

[@shacolin6546]

In my opinion mobility creep is the biggest problem here. She gets a massive reward for hitting a vital, balanced around the fact it is conditional. However, giving her a dash which's cooldown can fall below 3 seconds and giving her movement speed everytime she hits a vital means that all of a sudden hitting a vital is no longer a condition, but an expectation. Camille and Akali face a similar problem, to where their damage is made too powerful but balanced around having to meet a condition to access that power. The thing is, their very same kit provides tools to make that condition easier to achieve, meaning that what's meant to be a condition which you may or may not get, becomes an expectation. Removing the movement speed steroids of these champions would make them significantly more manageable as it'd make more reasonable for their opponents to play around and avoid that empowered damage. I favour that all champions with access to low cooldown or multiple dashes, should have movement speed steroids in their kit revisited. Zed, LeBlanc, Elise, Lee Sin and even Fizz are healthier with their mobility because when its on cooldown, it IS on cooldown. You can't just ignore your cooldowns because 500+ movement speed all the time.

[@TriantafyllosTsiakiris]

Vayne's true damage scales with attack speed instead of AD, also there are no conditions to proc it, on a ranged champion of all things. Also you forgot to mention that hitting a W pretty much autowon any trade with an AA champ.

[@8itesize]

i miss fiora so goddamned much.

[@cetofox]

11:49 but you can make the exact same argument about Armor, for example considering Rammus or Malphite. If you are an ADC in the mid game sidelaning vs Malphite or Rammus there is nothing you can do, you just get statchecked and die. Since the Item rework made it so Rageblade doesn't give Armor Pen anymore and You cannot build Black Cleaver and an Armor Pen Item (like you could before) there is no counterplay any ADC has vs Tanks. If you complain about Max Health true dmg rendering all sorts of tanky stats useless why isn't it the exact same thing when Armor renders ADCs useless because they have no counterplay and can't build enough % Armor Pen to even break through the Armor their enemies get. Certain Champions are just very good into other Champions, for example Malphite/Rammus into ADCs and Fiora into Tanks. Fiora is very strong and you could argue for a W nerf but she is not broken, most ranged Champions can counter her and win Fights. I don't like it either because that basically means you are just not allowed to blind certain Champions but it's not a specific Fiora problem, it's just how Counters in the game work.

[@hqhuy931]

as an artillery mage player, I have countless times been screwed by her personal damage but more when I can swap lanes with my losing top and bombard fiora so that she has no choice but to 1. all in and risk dying to flash+ignite+all my rotation or 2. back off, be behind, contribute nothing to the team and continue to suffer. I recommend the same

[@jojotv9383]

Well I know the counter to max health true damage. just stack more health regeneration so you get the health back faster! Yeah, but I agree, percent max health true damage is so unnecessary. Just change it tho physical gamage or make it flat so that a vital can just deal a max of 2 percent true damage, or flat true damage. This champ is pretty unpleasant, to say the least.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

That's definitely not the problem

[@jasoncarnelian3325]

The biggest crime was what Riot did to her hair. A close second is taking her dagger away.

[@zackbauer4562]

Akali's base stats + lvl up stats are ludicrous, at level 18 she has more MR then Galio, who's theme is anti magic tank, what with being made of petricite

[@renatoramos8834]

perfect? % max heath true damage is busted, not balanced.

[@cye2310]

Cry fucking tank player, just because you have more health and defense, doesn't mean you win.

[@joobin1049]

well the problem here is the only thing that truly scales about fiora is her passive and all of her other abilities don't do any damage on their own. q doesn't have good damage scale, w scale with magic that fiora has no reason to build, e does not scale at all and by just being there prevents fiora to even consider building for crit items, r in its true sense is only small speed buff that activates your passive in 4 direction one of the harder skills to execute and the reward part that doing it gives you is just heal) and fiora is a terrible auto attacker for melee bruiser, so all of her damage comes from passive and if they nerf that passive to be simple physical damage they have to add that much power to the rest of her kit, and just imagine fiora q doing tons of damage on its own from any direction or she had damage scale on auto attack reset.

[@joobin1049]

I know fiora ulty does a ton of damage very fast that almost feels unfair but that all to the fact that you are getting 4 passive procs back to back not ulty on its own adding any damage to the prosses.

[@shinymuuma]

So your expectation of the Grand Duelist is she challenge you to the duel fair and square? No, she's the Grand Duelist because she WILL win the duel with her bullshit tool. She feel bullshit in 1v1 because she is. They intentionally give her the %hp true damage because it's intended for her to be that way. They don't want a single tank or mediocre fighter to be able to match her splitpush Did you mentioned her W apply 50% slow and decrease attack speed from lv1 even if she didn't riposte CC? Cause I feel like that's also bullshit

[@MakoShiruba]

Lunge was a targeted ability. You are encouraged to spam it into an opponent as the cooldown refreshes on champion impact. There was no meaningful interaction with it. If you had one disengage on Fiora, as long as you were in range, Fiora would dash back in and force you to fight or force her out of the fight. It was a no-brainer skill.

[@sheicode3748]

6:45 Had to doublecheck if he is describing Master Q

[@celloj3703]

It also isn’t helping her case that her Q is literally an aimbot that prioritizes champions

[@alex2005z]

It wont hit champions if there is a low hp minions nearby. You can use it to dodge a q

[@cachorodovizinhodojoaquim6945]

12:01 not really, sett's W is still normal true damage so building hp works against it, the issue is that sett is good against high hp targets thx to his Q and R but its normal true damage he just do waaaaaay to much of it

[@avinashshaheed9597]

old fiora W was a monster at lv 1 and 2. singlehandedly won you lanes

[@typervader]

We are seeing the %true damage issue arise with smolder, who is a huge balance problem simply because riot doesn't want to fix the actual problem

[@TheKing-qz9wd]

One of the things I love about mages is they tend to have at least one hard cc tool, so even if you're a Nautilus and Fiora is about to kill you and use you to heal her entire team, your Malzahar suddenly silences her so she can't cast W, so you ult her on the spot before she gets the 4th proc, and Malz just drops everything her has on her to finish her off. I kiss the mages feet when they save me from incomprehensible manmade horrors like those.

[@thefonty.]

I feel that making her passive to be %physical damage people would build her more into an assasin. If it is true damage max hp, but a fixed amount, people would build her fully tank. And making it just true damage scaling of ad it's a straight nerf, so it would require some type of compensation. She was cursed when in her rework they added this feature.

[@tiagolopes4687]

yes people forget why champs like riven or aatrox go full lethali making it physical she would go full lethali like that ones and the %physiscal would be higher than the current true dmg to make it balance so it would just make her an assassin letali champ

[@8S1ns]

I missed Fiora's Omni Slash Ult, not sure what season is it but that's the peak Fiora version that i loved and i think the best.

[@vortraz2054]

If Riot really insists on Fiora keeping her role of trashing right through the tanks, I dont think its fair but FINE heres an alternative that will make her less of an assassian at the same time. I as a Tank Ornn player would settle for this, the OTHER option to fix Fiora, is make her do % CURRENT health true damage. She still trashes my HP, but atleast she doesnt 100 to 0 me HOWEVER. I think that it should be physical damage instead of true damage because, chipping down a tank with a bottomless well of damage one bucket at a time, is the role of an ADC. DAMNIT. Before I get into this, no im not an Adc player. Role sucks. Everyone hates you for no reason and wont let you play. Because we dont need them or their damage. Why babysit a class of champions who can only do their job if they get to free farm for fifteen minutes? The only time youd do that, is if noone else can kill the tank. Meaning I would get to engage at will and walk away if noone dies in the first three seconds. But because we dont let tanks be strong enough for that, you dont actually need an Adc. So people never help them, and they get forced to start picking shit like ziggs Bot and play a poor mans mid. The truth is the game was rigged from the start. Riot arent dealing fair hands. What you guys call a Tank meta is actually Adc meta. and none of you realize it. So noone bothers to help an Adc when all they need is someone to zone so they can hit minions, crash, and base. AND THEN WE WONDER WHY WE CANT KILL TANKS and we whine to Riot. And Phreak listens because he doesnt know any better either. Im an Ornn main, and I feel BAD guys, when I look at bot lane and I see the enemy jg leave his Adc for dead like hes Gabe Newell abandoning games. I know that noone will be able to kill me that game. That isnt tank meta. Thats a healthy state for the game. If you leave your Tank buster to be assassin food, then you deserve to lose. Nerf Fiora, so that Tank players can lane, and Adc players can find meaning in life again, cutting me down while their team holds me still.

[@NickiTomi0303]

For people that played long enough this game, it is safe to say you tank players don’t deserve any peace in this game and need to be countered in your own lane, not by the adc only.

[@nurbekkhazhimurat3038]

i think in order to make her passive actually work and balanced u need to make her hard as a champion. Which she is. Not only the high skill floor but also one of the highest skill ceilings among all champions in the game. Also, those vitals still DO have counterplay: spacing/kiting them, standing against the wall and punishing her cooldowns and etc. - all work pretty nice against her, especially considering that 99% of fioras tend to suicide into them, which makes them an easy object for bait. In addition, slowing effects counter her extremely well, since there will be no way for her to proc those vitals if applied correctly. And hitting slowing effects is usually much easier than every other source of cc.

[@Dualstories]

i think if they replaced the %max health damage with magic, that would be more balanced, bc then fiora would be able to do something vs a tank stacking nothing but armor, but if the tank did itemise against the %max health damage they would be able to keep themselves alive vs it.

[@Arob4343]

I feel like if they just made her percent max health true damage into percent max health attack damage or even magic damage, it would still be strong but wouldn’t be uncontrollable

[@mythmage8231]

What if, hypothetically, Duelist's Dance was changed to %current true damage, instead of %max true damage? That way, her damage is alot more front loaded, and she'll have a harder time finishing people off, forcing her to build assassin items if she wants to 100-0 someone quickly, but doing so means she doesn't get to build fighter items like Death's Dance.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

Let's go now we have a champion that still shred tank, spike earlier and also destroy absolutely everything making her stronger agaisnt other duelist and bruiser. The dmg type is not the problem

[@lelandwhitehead56]

@@baptistecochennec5956 Between this comment and the other ones you've left in the section, your opinion is entirely irrelevant. Yes, clearly it would make her stronger by making her do less damage. gigabrain.

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@lelandwhitehead56 yeah you really didn't think this trough right... So now fiora the 51% percent champ do less dmg, guess what she isn't at 51% wr right now so we need to buff her, we'll probably buff her passive or any other part of her kit making her stronger than current fiora against any champ that isn't a 6k hp 300 armor champ. (guess what they are less common than sub 6k sub 300 armor champ making her on average stronger than current fiora)

[@baptistecochennec5956]

@@lelandwhitehead56 if you don't believe me the same thing is happening with vayne in high elo she once was an on-hit true dmg champ now her best build in high elo is lethality assasin...

[@themarketgardener]

%max hp true damage IS the problem are you okay? its even more cancerous than her W because you can't outplay it@@baptistecochennec5956

[@krystians2016]

it looks like hmmmmmmmmmmmmm %hp max dmg is a bit annoying to deal with and is always broken but when you look at few champs that deal insane amount of that type of dmg like fk fiora that few months ago ppl were trying full ad/lethality fiora cuz you could kill ppl with just 2 procs of your ult and then your AD will do the rest and your ult would deal close to 100% hp true dmg just remove %max hp true dmg and execute%missing hp true dmg (garen ult should deal ad or ap dmg)

[@kane4ik]

Garen's ult was actually dealing magic damage before, when he had a "villain" mechanic(if I recall the name correctly).

[@Yino-Yango]

Well idk about all that, but fiora with a full ad rune page had 121 ad at lv 1 with repost. Not many people if at all could fight her do to her sheer volume of ad. I remember i had a 2v1 lv 1 and won against udyr and lee