Juggernauts: The Class Balanced Around Going Second | League of Legends

For today's video, I wanted to discuss the Juggernaut subclass in more detail, namely to describe how they're balanced and why it feels like they can be simultaneously really strong yet really weak. That's because, they're the only champions in the game that move second!
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#LoL #Juggernauts #Fighters

[@Xephyranth]

Sett's whole line of "You swing on the boss? You better not miss" really captures Juggernaut classes

[@lucasrv2630]

It's so ironically accurate that juggernauts are practically what other games have for bosses. Big and tanky and also dealing a whole lot of damage, and the opponents have multiple turns to hit them, sometimes even healing like estus in dark souls. It's exactly like playing as a Boss. Lol

[@Xephyranth]

@@lucasrv2630 really love the games I play where people just call my Mordekaiser a raid boss, tanking all damage as an appetizer and the enemies for the main course

[@sababezhashvili598]

@@Xephyranth Laughs in 7k Hp Sion. With Fimbulwinter and Titanic Hydra

[@franchmancsa7527]

@@sababezhashvili598 me when fimbulwinter is honest trash

[@lorscarbonferrite6964]

Being a raidboss is why Gallio's one of my favorite for-fun champions. He's not a juggernaut, due to not having enough on demand damage, but with aftershock and his passive, every ~20 seconds, he can get quite close. And there's few things more satisfying than essentially being the unexpected 2nd phase of one of your squishies.

[@wastelandking]

Honestly, I like juggernauts. Save for some certain times in the game’s lifespan (Juggernaut Rework in 2015 and pre-reworked Stridebreaker in 2021), they’re usually pretty honest in the way they fight. Mano a mano, up close and personal, and capable of taking a punch and going the extra mile.

[@ironboy3245]

and most of them are honest champs, no 4 dash, invis and 2k true damage on a basic ability

[@Machosause]

Unless it's morde, fuck fighting morde

[@leohrvat3987]

@@Machosause just buy qss and kite the shit out of him

[@HamsterPants522]

@@Machosause I play Morde and he's the weakest champ in my pool.

[@SHAYTAN6666]

@@HamsterPants522 I was going to make a comment on this, but wtf is that profile bro?

[@MatsYoo]

I love playing juggernauts since you get that "im kind of a problem" moment when you hit powerspikes. With the right items you can sacrifice a bit of damage that would be overkill anyway to get the speed to close the distance. Like i play against garen and my adc never understands that he only needs a deadmans plate to kill them with ult. Or my most beloved champ is probably urgot, you may be slow as fck but you can also tank a whole lot and once someone is dumb enough to get close they end up in the grinder. Or morde with ghost and lethal tempo, just bonking someone to death who didnt buy qss or a spellshield.

[@lilBx554]

I like your picture, its neat.

[@MatsYoo]

@@lilBx554 umm thanks

[@walkelftexasranger]

Actually Urgot can't tank shit since he doesn't build that tanky unlike Garen or Nasus.

[@aaronscott7467]

The adc didn't forget that garen can kill with just ult and deadman's, they just couldn't do anything about it

[@nechocat1234]

spell shield isn't even that effective because mos ap characters are slower thab morde anyways and those who aren't don't need it because they can just avoid him even in brazil

[@AceOf_Diamonds_]

I couldn't wrap my head around the "Class balanced on going second" meaning until you mentioned turns in turn-based games, then I felt as if I trascended in intelligence. That's why I adore your videos

[@jaywu4804]

is it strange that a Smash pro making analytical videos on a moba being my favourite youtube series?

[@apollonarawfwfw5426]

i thought he meant the general feeling of top lane "counter or be countered pick second and win"

[@luizhenriquegarcia3186]

Being the raid boss is the feeling everyone wants, and the only class capable of is Jugs.

[@nyramtf4406]

especially when u get fed top, you can easy 1v2, 1v3 and even take on their whole team to stall baron. UNLIMITED POWAH... till teamfight start and you went full dmg LOL

[@Betroid]

Dr mundo can too

[@PowerEd8]

@@Betroid Mundo is a juggernaut, so yeah

[@stormdragon2529]

@@Betroid mundo is garbage rn bro against good players

[@jumper3624]

Illaoi story time: just had a game against a full AP team, final fight lasted 50 seconds 1v4, and I got a triple

[@AllYourPals]

Probably my favorite class of champion. straight forward, satisfying and not depended on 200 years BS to be functional

[@lilpotato]

plain and simple "run in do damage, you live and it feels nice, you die and you still feel nice"

[@mechahit1296]

Claping ranged toplaners is the most satisfying thing ever

[@zodiark93]

Totally agree with you! However, every time I try to play them, in the last period, I found them a bit squishy, even with tons of defences. I can't wait for the new patch in 25/5, which is going to increase the general survivability and to lower the effect of the damage bursts.

[@alex2005z]

@@mechahit1296 darius is kind of countered by ranged champions

[@alex2005z]

@@zodiark93 everyone feels squishy. Unless you are a fed sion or orn

[@atdum1]

Love how Vars used pokemon to describe mutual exchange while having a clip of Ursaluna, a relatively slow pokemon, getting 2 moves in a row lmao

[@thebaron9405]

Juggernauts also feel good to play as, being a Mordekaiser simp i love the feeling of "I am an unstoppable force" the Juggernauts give people, makes you feel like you're the enemies main threat and even if you're loosing (at least to) it feels oddly good And oh man, how good it feels if you're actually doing good, running down groups of enemies makes my synapses go wild, when you hit that "SHATTER!" On every kill

[@jaotrx7163]

A morde main 🤢

[@AceOf_Diamonds_]

My exact feelings when playing Aatrox and going ahead, you just feel like an unkillable raid boss going 1v2-3 and still winning

[@thebaron9405]

@@jaotrx7163 yes i main the trashcan

[@thebaron9405]

@@AceOf_Diamonds_ side note i really hope they make the Juggernauts in the mmo as bosses, Mordekaiser probably being the final final boss

[@franconunez925]

@@thebaron9405 they're doing a Lol mmo? Because then nobody screams "I'm the final boss of the raid" than Aatrox.

[@thebaron9405]

Basically juggernauts are like game bosses, you have out maneuver them and out range them before they can hit you

[@klaus6091]

yeah, i'd love to see you outmaneuver a darius with ghost or an illaoi that ults once

[@ryuujinjakka]

@klaus6091 illaoi you can run, but ghost darius good luck

[@spatz2219]

I personally feel that the smash bros analogy can extend to fighting games in general, with grapplers taking the role of “juggernaut”. In guilty gear Potemkin has no dash but pot buster 3 shots 90% of the roster, Zangief is slow but SPD can completely turn a fight, in Tekken, Gigas has very easy access to hyper armor and overkill into a wall can damn near 2 shot.

[@franconunez925]

And then there's Faust at the 10% who just dies the moment he enters the match.

[@walkelftexasranger]

Oh man I remember when I used to play Tekken and I was playing Devil Jin. I wasn't very good at him ,but he was really fun to play.

[@volcanicviper5984]

yea, but he probably uses smash since hes more familiar with it and can easily make comparisons

[@spatz2219]

@@volcanicviper5984 fair enough, I just thought it was cool how far the concept can truly be applied

[@happycamperds9917]

To a similar extent, strong poke kind of shuts grapplers and Juggernauts down because it's designed to prevent the opponent from taking their turn.

[@ChickenCast100]

When I saw the title I just said "YUP" out loud. It is 4 am

[@ahmedhossam3993]

same here

[@shacolin6546]

Oh, yes, the champions all Yasuo and Irelia mains say are braindead and broken because they lose to them 1v1 and always fail to realize they have no range and no mobility, meaning brute force is all they bring to the table. I find it especially funny when those same players claim we're in a "tank meta" and then they're talking about Mundo and Tahm Kench.

[@AllYourPals]

Imagine an irelia main complaining anything is broken

[@2BsYummySoles]

@@AllYourPals I don't even play her anymore and she's not. I've never lost against one in tbe past month and they are higher elo than me. Also my whole issue with tanks is that miss any one ability against them or even get hit and you are dead. The counter argument for range doesn't really apply because you need time to kill them and they can set up their team to kill yours within seconds which isn't long enough for an adc to do anything. You could be Vayne and still just get Ed or Qed and even if you dodge that you are still cced one shot by Zac. And everyone knows Ornn can one shot an Irelia from full health while perma ccing her with tank items

[@2BsYummySoles]

there's plenty of clips of say for example an Ornn doing this or surviving an entire teams for so long. And the adc gets one shot for even stepping close

[@theimmortaleye7511]

@@2BsYummySoles i mean thats good, orn should be able to kill irelia so hard she becomes permabanned

[@Vetrial_3038]

@@theimmortaleye7511 i mean poppy could do that but ornn does it better

[@mikedangerdoes]

There's nothing quite walking into a fight, causing some trouble, realising you are in trouble, and then just walking back out while chaos goes on around you. Other classes make use of mobility or dashes to get out, but the juggernaut just nopes out (or tries to).

[@hotcocoacoffe3938]

Always love playing nasus and being harassed by the other top laner, until they think they're safe and I go ham on them with over 300 stacks and tanking more damage than they're able to ditch out only with the basic abilities, not even bothering with the ulti

[@1SSJA]

You flash q auto e ult as garen and just ran away until your cooldowns come back up (your adc and mid liner will die in 2 seconds)

[@MAMAJUGO]

I still miss role names like "initiator" and "counter-initiator"

[@BobbyMcRosso]

@Poor Quality Gameplay I'd say both vanguards and divers would be initiators

[@mistared4021]

Dota2 still uses that, why did lol change that?

[@TTMILKYTT]

@@mistared4021 “flavor” Vanguard sounds better than Initiator

[@sababezhashvili598]

@@TTMILKYTTVanguard sounds better. Initiator conveys the meaning better.

[@Super_Top_Secret_Area]

What feels bad is people confusing juggernauts with tanks and, since many of them don't know how to play around juggernauts (a big part of the playerbase is in low Elo), they would say that tanks are overpowered. And the Collection tab in the game doesn't help, they haven't updated that thing even though the class system was updated in 2017. It still calls Garen, Darius and Sett "tanks", while the real tanks are the ones hurt the most by those claims and nerfs directed at their items.

[@Sammysapphira]

They are still tanks and primarily tank damage.

[@chillaxboi2109]

@@Sammysapphira They aren't tanks in any capacity. They are stat stick bruisers on steroids. They have auto win 1 vs 1 passives and they definitely don't build tanky. Or are you saying that since Virgo is capable of outsustaining a team and getting a penta, he is suddenly is a tank?

[@Super_Top_Secret_Area]

@@Sammysapphira Juggernauts are not tanks, they are a type of fighter/bruiser. Tanks are comprised of only vanguards and wardens.

[@OuhHey]

For an assassin or an ADC point of view, Juggernauts are just tanks And the fact is that they buy a lot of tank item, except the mythic and maybe death dance sometime Even Morde' Jngl Predator, wich is secret OP even in Master/GM elo, is played full tank Problem is just that tanks runs so fast, at a point it's almost impossible to kite or escape em, especially if you are a melee, with their CC/Slow/Speed

[@mohammedalsma266]

Two of mains are in thumbnail let's gooo

[@strategist973]

Juggernauts are fight or flight because yes they have the damage and durability but their consistency is non existent. Darius and Mordekaiser have ways to engage the fight but they are to slow or lack the range. Darius's E having +50 range and Mord's E being faster will be way more viable even if their damage gets nerfed with it. There is no point in having so much damage and then have no real skill to use it

[@stormdragon2529]

i would honestly sacrifice a bit of Sett's dmg if it means more range with E or more MS with Q. dosent matter if you can destroy the whole enemy team in a few secs if you cant hit them

[@elderlich7562]

You don't need to get close if your caitlyn can attack for you. If they fight her, they have to stand still, meaning you can just shred them.

[@nox22119]

Nah Jugs are in a great position right now they're actually my favorite class right now my main being Urgot and flex pick of Mordekaiser if the team needs AP damage or Aatrox and Sion if I just want to relax and slight int on games but still win. Changing those stats will make them lose their identity of being slow but high damage high survivability and I have no problem gap closing against enemy champs since I don't walk up to them they walk up to me by using bushes and teammates as bait for them also tower pressure.

[@Dingdong2730]

If they get more tools to engage they will have to be nerfed in other areas. Mordekaiser and Darius are already retardedly strong. Darius has the same amount of AD if not more than a full built ADC at 1 item + Conq and passive stacked.

[@mohammadsaddam4560]

one of the thing i love from juggernaut is their glorious animation. assasins gameplay are flashy but their animations aren't. they just come, ,kill and go in a blink. juggernaut on the other hand take some time to kill and you can watch the animation play out. aatrox spreading his wings, volibear leaping like a madman, morde sending you to shadow realm, sett giving a fucking RKO to your opponent, and the list goes on... they always feel good to me because of that

[@fadeddragon123]

“Tanks do what tanks are supposed to do” as a tank main I disagree. They need to actually tank. Not do unexpected damage (as much as people hate ornn.. his 25%ish max hp dmg is expected.) Late game tanks just don’t do anything frankly. Firstly. Vayne and Fiora exist. Secondly. You just melt like a squishy late game. You can have 6k hp and 400 defenses and still not survive more than 3 Seconds. I hate to beat the dead horse of “tanks do too much dmg and don’t tank enough” (when I say too much damage I mean something like zac. Ornn does a lot too but you can tweak brittle

[@SamElZombie]

with all the true dmg and armor and magig pen it's normal that tanks don't do shit, specially when there are items than by themselfs give 35% and 40% pen for a lower cost than most of items

[@greatgatorgaming6024]

I feel like a big part of this (on top of true dmg) is the whole mechanic of physical and magic dmg. Tanks are forced to split their itemization to accommodate for two types of threats where as the dps characters can just stack up ad or ap. It’s the whole reason why tanks can feel so squishy but then you can have a game with 5 ad or 5 ap and next thing you know the tanks become unkillable. There just isn’t many tank items that can cover both so ur usually left not having enough of 1 or the other for most of the game.

[@RustingPeace]

you misundertand what a tank is supposed to do... either cc lock the target or peel your dmg carries. thats it

[@fadeddragon123]

@@greatgatorgaming6024 even with 350~ of each as ornn and 5500 health you still die on less than 3 seconds. Happened to me last week

[@SamElZombie]

@@RustingPeace it even say's it on the name, they are supposed to TANK dmg and block skillshots, cc locking is a support's role in every other moba except in this one

[@einjharrelraca]

the way i look at juggernauts and being slow is, If you are going to auto win if you get into melee range, you should atleast have a hard time getting into melee range.

[@TaraHalls]

When I played League, Juggernauts were always the class I found myself going back to, with personal favorites of mine being Urgot, Sett and(new) Mordekaiser. In most games, I always have an affinity for classes where I just go fucking ham without much care, and Juggernauts really lend themselves to this playstyle well.

[@aatroxtheworldender933]

Aatrox is hybrid of juggernauts and fighters. On the theory he is the strongest top laner. But in reality he isnt anything special. He will be once certain fighters get nerfed. (Fiora,Irellia,Riven,Cammile).

[@ptbro3334]

Hope they nerf the listed toplaners

[@RustingPeace]

juggernaut is a subclass of fighters/bruisers... not a hybrid and by statstick he isnt the strongest toplaner either, nor utility, or usefullness

[@aatroxtheworldender933]

@@RustingPeace i meant like hybrid of statcheckers and skillfull fighters. He has range that juggernauts are not supposed to have, he has good base stats (one of the highest base ad in the game and resistances a little below juggernauts), he has short but usefull dash for combat and movement in jg, he has kinda bad passive but its usefull, saved me many times, he deals mostly AOE damage, he heals from that AOE damage without penalties,he has w for locking down immobile enemies, he has one of the best ultimates in the game, his whole power is in his ult, movement speed steroid, damage steroid and healing boost, he becomes ghosted (can pass through minions) and fears them all and jg creeps, plus his ult "resets" on every takedown. He is almost like a statchecker without class disabilities. But others like i said are much more stronger in stats and skills right now and they have little amount of counters while Aatrox has little amount but really affecting counters like armor, anti heal and constant fast mobility. Riven catches mobile enemies, she defeats tanks because her sustain is on her spammable shield, and anti heal in current meta is a must because of all the items but before it wasnt counter to her. Same with Fiora and Irellia and Cammile. Their skills are too good, Aatrox had better but he was gutted and they are not.

[@AsazLeague]

Coolest and hardest toplane class Idc about your "b-b-but fiora irelia" they statcheck even more than they do while having easy mobility and less counterplay

[@alex2005z]

If you have a quick acess dash in your kit fiora absolutely doesnt stat check you

[@gyocy6820]

anyone else saw the flying karma? 11:04 jsjsjjjs kinda funny to see her dodging SS like nothing while flying and supporting 7w7r without a doubt the strongest champion hahahha

[@cokecan6169]

Juggernauts also don't really have burst. They often have pretty telegraphed animations, and can't mash abilities together for super fast combos like slayers or mages, there's usually a sizeable cap on how fast they can unload a rotation.

[@VictorLopez-lf5ke]

I think the problem with juggernauts is that they become a kind of Stat checker and that's why people think they are unfair to play against, cause no matter what you do you can't beat them if they do that one thing that make the success, and in most cases is to get close to you,

[@cokecan6169]

Which is why you force them to go first.

[@VictorLopez-lf5ke]

@@cokecan6169 did u mean second?

[@cokecan6169]

@@VictorLopez-lf5ke no first. Force the melee player to burn things engaging. People lose because they get too close and use their escape spells before the melee champion uses their gap closers/cc spells. Melee loses when they burn these spells closing onto someone with all mobility spells up.

[@oleglukichov2037]

One other thing that I think is important to mention is that the "turns" in LOL are easily underutilised by newer players, so a newb might just stand around for the time Darius gets to them and then flunk the only advantage they had. In smash bro's, you similarly need to know how to interrupt an opponent to make use of your speed advantage. In my experience, this makes characters like Illaoi or King dedede seem unfair to worse players because they don't know how to utilize their advantage of "speed".

[@maddog_majima9553]

Though I still feel sad for those sett mains after the gore nerf. I mean after gore nerf they buffed rhaast max health dmg to kingdom come but sett didn't any help in anything. Every goredrinker abuse had something going except that guy. But I still do have hard times against a good sett. I remember the time I went against a exhaust sett as volibear. It didn't end well

[@walkelftexasranger]

What ? Sett literally got W buff, HP buff and R buff and now he is doing really well.

[@maddog_majima9553]

@@walkelftexasranger 7-8 months ago. I quit playing ranked after I reached plat(i used sett voli and garen , all where broken back then) last season but I can say with full confidence that every item change effected sett more than anyone else. But everyone still on about that W buff which was too strong mind u but its not that anymore. Last day alone while playing with my friends I took sett for old times sake in like months and played it like before the gore nerf was pretty hard that my own friends started laughing at me calling boosted XD.

[@ahmadafzal1918]

Yea Sett is is a really awkward spot rn but they cant really buff anything besides his AD ratios cuz then he can be flexed in other positions aswell which riot doesnt want. perhaps they could give him a higher armor and mr stat to begin with but rn Sett can only wish he gets a proper buff but if u ask me im ok with having Sett as the most useless and crappiest juggernaut to play(i main him) cuz atleast then ppl wont rant and get him nerfed to Oblivion again.

[@MettatexYT]

This video came out at the perfect time for me. One of my friends and I typically tend to argue about League related things, for fun as we enjoy having our back and forths. One of the topics I cant seem to explain to him though is why, in my opinion, Juggernauts are an exceptionally designed class. His response is always "I fucking hate how being a Juggernaut means you just win a 1v1", and I couldn't really ever bounce back on that front. Now I can thanks for providing me with ammo to shit on his opinion /s

[@julianpradarodriguez7336]

I love how you can adapt juggernaughts to your own play Style. You can go high damage/low survival potential or pure tank sacrificing damage.

[@tsuntsunpenguin6530]

"What is a fighter even" - I think a fighter's role can change depending on the state of the game. They're usually adept at isolated fights (where the holy trinity of dps tank support doesnt apply) and in teamfights, they usually do try to break the enemies' formation and get the dps or the healer past the tank. In certain scenarios though, they can act as a pseudo tank in the formation, like to take aggro their late game ADc, as a tank's role anyway is to make space for the carries to deal damage

[@toastmitkitkat2625]

I love when i hear players say darius is the most broken toplaner while, its rly fun being one of the few players whos playing around macro, matchups and so on in low elo, people just think differently there

[@halycon404]

My only problem with Darius top is I forget how much damage hemorrhage does early game. At 1-2 games per day I'll go weeks without seeing him sometimes. Then we engage and I remember.

[@BaconWestern]

He's not broken if you know how to play against him (he is pretty simple), but holy shit does he ruin your time if he gets a lead

[@lutter4818]

I just hate playing against him because it's so unfun. You gotta wait like 9 levels without doing much until you outscale him. (At least if you're not incredibly good or playing an early game champ). He's not unfair, just unfun for me

[@N0TYALC]

I don’t play top, and I don’t have much problem dealing with Darius. I still despise playing against him because there’s a 50-50 chance my top lamer will walk right up to him lvl 1 and be useless for the rest of the game

[@halycon404]

@@N0TYALC It's not that they walk up to him. It's part of the meta of top noone talks about. Everyone talks about how it's an island or a wasteland. What very few people talk about is the diversity top. Everything, everything, can be found top. There's top tanks, top skirmishers, top mages, top supports, top adcs, and on and on and on. Every class in LoL has a champion that either plays top or can flex top. There is more diversity in top lane than anywhere else, including jungle. And that means there's more just fail matchups. Darius can just stomp certain champions that play top at will, without them walking up to him. Conversely there's some champions that play top which can stomp Darius at will. That means top is the king of counter picking. Being the second top lane person to choose in champion select can define the game in a way no other position can. I know at champion select if I'm going to win or lose top. It's not even a question. That 50/50 you're talking about. It's the coin flip of who picks first in champion select. There's games I look at being down 30cs and 1 death as a win, I massively outplayed them to get that horrible result. That's how bad top is sometimes.

[@SuperAutastic]

I'm sorry, did he just say that juggernauts dont have range?! that's why they're broken... not only do they have insane HP & defence, but most of them ALSO have insane damage AND range or ways to gap-close

[@lutter4818]

ADC player?

[@vincemegasonic]

I actually think that juggernauts are fine with striking "anytime". Being resilient enough to engage and last long in a clash without having to worry about mobility is a trait that makes them simple yet intimidating.

[@beo3828]

Considering the patch we're getting, they're about to be able to run down anything and everything.

[@simplyded1055]

I feel like as of now it's a 50 - 50, depends on which team gets ahead early, you'll either carry or be completely obliterated without doing anything useful. But the upcoming durability changes I feel will be healthier for juggernauts, since they'll survive long enough to deal damage

[@TheRevolverKnight]

Juggernauts are always going to have be balanced around utility, self and otherwise. They have to be able to succeed in a game where the optimal strategy is antithetical to how they play which is why they are so binary. The TP nerf has been a huge blessing in disguise to the class as it allows flash + ghost into more games.

[@hopeandpiece]

My favorite bit is that, because you go second, and juggernauts have such honest kits, you have to think outside the box to sneak some of those turns back into your favor.

[@uzzy1364]

if 50% says the class needs a buff and the rest say they need a nerf the class is probably balanced

[@recon_ik]

I like them. I play Kat almost exclusively and have often joked to my friends that I like the fact that I just die to mordekaiser regardless of if hes mega fed or not. They feel pretty fair. I think the only issue, as with most of the game currently, is STILL with items. A mord building MR and bruiser items and making me feel useless? Thats okay. A garen rushing all movespeed percentage items and becoming too fast, too tanky, and too high in damage for my team to stop? feels super gross.

[@clownactivist]

garen has always been kinda cancerous in this regard, like his only thing is speed for engage or disengage, hes like this weird ass horrible exception XDD

[@GuardianGrarl]

Braum: To friends, i am snowflake. To enemies... i am Juggernot

[@psalmyyvan]

Dear Vars, I've been enjoying your videos but sometimes, it's hard to follow the narrative. I wish you could use more analogies. I'm thinking Super Smash Bros would be a good example.

[@wilddaemon7340]

Juggernauts are balanced against ranged but if you play a ranged top you're a no talent, elo inflated, hack. But in reality you're just playing whats balanced? And everyone should accept you as a skillful counterpicker while playing ranged top against Juggernauts?

[@Machosause]

I like to play tanks and juggernauts because of the playstyle of using your health and other resources, to effectively get you big damage in, basically, I like "waiting my turn" because then I get to kick everyone's shit in once the ball is in my court

[@GateBreakerZ]

Juggernauts is literally the most balanced class in this game And ADC's are still cry babies I LOVE THIS GAME SO MUCH !!!

[@grimlockgreg3063]

Yes…. Yes

[@Alma-bs7un]

adc main here... yes we are, unfortunately. still recovering the yasuo and yone incident

[@wazabi41]

Well with the durability patch, clearly something was off about range being equivalent to stats. And with league, not having vision on that juggernaut means you most likely won't have those turns...so they become assassins with massive health pools and defenses. They won't be able to chase you down without deadman's/ghost/flash, but you also won't be able to run without those two. The only advantage of range is being good at kiting...which is why juggs are often called braindead/skill-less : they kill you without giving you a chance to do anything or they endlessly chase/run away from you(1vs1 scenario, in a teamfight, there's a lot more than that). Both of which don't require much effort and give maximum or no rewards. IDK about you guys, but i never see a juggernaut do average, they always carry or feed.

[@samuka7118]

I dont think there is a lot to say about SUBclasses but i think this one might be interesting. I also wanna see a vídeo about skirmichers, that would be nice too.

[@flameofmage1099]

I do enjoy Juggernauts but everytime I play them I just get hired to all hell smh

[@boogrs55]

and thats why my darius uses deadmans force of nature mercs and wits to "stick" to a target

[@darthbishop5973]

Juggernauts in a nutshell: take 0 damage, deal 10 million damage

[@sprayandpray6976]

11:16 Karma casually walking in another plane of existence

[@freegaming2334]

0:47 assassins cons: low resilience and low survivability . laugh in yone.

[@mokutomedia1253]

What I like is that league just has specialists. Like Teemo. They can just do what they want them to.

[@epicgamernik76]

As someone who mains Mordekaiser, this video was very informative and actually helped me realize a few things

[@schlopsker.mp5]

I don’t think Mordekaiser mains realize too much - morde main

[@123silverslash]

i'd be okay with juggernauts if their whole "can't get on top of you but if they do they win" thing was like, actually true. Seemingly every juggernaut now has a movespeed boost or a dash or simple to use CC, and if they don't, there are a million items to help them get to that point, so if you're immobile or even if you're just normally mobile, but not hypermobile, they will catch you. The only juggernaut i can think of that actually has a hard time getting in is Illaoi, and you did a great job explaining why she is very niche.

[@hecatia666]

On my group of friends, I'm the only one that play Juggernauts characters and it feels nice to be the tank for the team, despite their complaints about "playing tanks is boring". Seems like people like to play anything else but tanks because they can't do sick plays or that kinds of stuff when you're the slower man of the bunch.

[@SpiffSpaff]

i remember one time there was one pushing my tower, and i was adc, tried to stop them, they proceeded to completely ignore me, i autoed them 15 times before they killed tower and then got one shot by them, having only dealt half of their health that was a gameplay experience, certainly

[@BaconWestern]

Does no one have anything to say about the karma at 11:10

[@alexandrubucurica4084]

If stridebreaker isn't allowed to have a dash neither should galeforce. Both aleviate the weakness of their respective class in the same way.

[@Gorecatto]

But then you remember Galeforce has a 120 second cooldown, did stridebreaker had a 120 second cooldown? Im a Shyvana/Garen main , and even i know that stridebreaker was broken , it not only gave us mobility , but removed the target mobility

[@lildinocap3539]

but what is karma doing in the sky at 11:17

[@hayleehey3050]

I think giving juggernauts a way to play neutral like Dr. Mundo's cleaver or Illaoi's tentacle slam let juggernauts have more consistency. I personally think Darius recieves too much compensation for range to the point a ghost darius with 2 solo lane kills before turrets lose plating is essentially an auto FF. Darius is an example of a lack of consistency resulting in a massively varied perception of juggernauts, making his moves more consistent in exchange for power should be the design philosophy moving forward in my opinion

[@daymianhogue1634]

My big issue with juggernauts is if you're also a melee champion like a diver... you just basically aren't allowed to do anything near the juggernaut. Or edge cases where said juggernaut takes ghost then he just seems to have little weakness at all.

[@aaronparry2636]

This honestly showcases the importance of counterpicks. if you get counterpicked in lane, all you do is try not to die and hope the rest of your team does well. There are counterpicks to all the juggernauts too, though, so it's not like they just get a free lane by picking them. In general top lane is essentially just a big game of rock paper scissors, where skill expression lies mostly in how well you can survive bad match-ups and how well you can take advantage of good ones. That's why champs with global pressure (like Shen or GP) are so good in solo queue. Even in bad match-ups they have tools to impact the rest of the map before plates fall.

[@daymianhogue1634]

@@aaronparry2636 yeah but no class should just counter "melee" as a whole.

[@Gorecatto]

Except that ....nothing stops you from taking ghost too? Also , you as a diver has clear advantages above juggernauts , you can get to immobiles , and even mobile champs way easier, the game is not 1v1 , you arr not forced to fight juggernauts alone

[@aaronparry2636]

@@daymianhogue1634 as God of Demencia noted, juggernauts do not simply counter all melees. They counter some melees in some situations. Melee tanks lane fine against them as a nullified lane, melee skirmishers outscale them in team fights and divers can put out more map pressure if they roam and gank other lanes early. Just don't fight them 1v1 in melee range.

[@eminkilicaslan8945]

I mostly see juggernaut's pretty versatile. I like to play them, they are just cut to play top lane.

[@jinxthememer3118]

At the moment I think juggernauts are fine. As a juggernaut player myself well, I also play mostly singed but he has low juggernaut qualities when fed. But you see where as Skirmishers are fast and tend to dive the back line and work well in even matched up fights like 1v1 and 2v2 and vice verse I think a good path to go with juggernauts would be to make them the go to champions that deal with 1v2 and 1v3. As in make them stronger against multiple enemy's when they are alone. Like a split push class similar to what we have with hullbreaker. For example old irelia before the rework had that passive that made her gain more tenacity when more enemy's were present. Or in another game Hero's of newerth. Before his rework prisoner 945 had a passive that made it so when he was alone and there was a enemy he'd gain a ridiculous 25% more base AD. But tbis adds up per enemy so he can have 125% more base AD if the entire enemy team was there and he was alone. Kind of like making juggernauts a anchor or a true raid boss. Where they'll be stronger with more enemy's when they are alone but weaker if they are vs a lot of enemy's but they also have a team. It would be weird but imagine if darius couldn't get noxian might if he was close to a teammate. Or if Garen doesn't get his HP regen out of combat near allies. But in turn you can also buff those aspects for that reason.

[@franciscovelasquez647]

I feel like juggernauts can effectively 1v2 or 1v3 already. It’s just always a game of fighting around them and never directly on them

[@pebblebrowser]

I'm surprised you didn't talk about the fact that most juggernauts just attempt to ignore this now quite successfully often times by going flash + ghost as well as some move speed items and runes like dead man's plate Its funny going Nasus, getting approach velocity and just using W on the poor adc as well as a ghost maybe, watching them try to run in fear but for no reason ehehe

[@D3V1LBr34TH]

Friendly reminder that Illaoi (2015) was the last Juggernaut that got released, if you don't count Sett (2020).

[@fashionsuckman4652]

Why would you not count sett?

[@mybrothersboringchannel3825]

@@fashionsuckman4652 Likely to emphasize the stagnate releases for both tanks and juggs over the years.

[@Gorecatto]

To compensate , early league had alot of them

[@JordaanM]

@@fashionsuckman4652 Sett on release was designed as a Diver/Duelist. It was only after they reworked all his numbers to emphasis his W over other abilities that the "Mathematically Correct" juggernaut-style HP-stacking Sett builds became popular.

[@duffles3106]

My biggest personal problem with juggernauts is how they have the capacity to be as tanky as a dedicated tank champ like Poppy, but still have massive damage output. It makes playing a traditional tank feel underpowered. Especially since most have large amounts of healing in their tits of items

[@CoolGuy-pz5et]

tanks have more engage and cc and utility, but i agree tanks are pretty trash rn

[@nox22119]

Tanks are balanced around hard CC problem is tanks are just bad right now especially in solo que they don't have the carrying potential of Jugs a fed tank does nothing in a team fight as the enemy will just ignore them and go for their squishier teammates then focus fire them 5v1. A Jug though can't be ignored and can even clean up team fights if left for last examples like Aatrox and Darius with their reset mechanic can easily 1v5 a low HP enemy team.

[@ugestacoolie5998]

poppy's damage actually isnt bad

[@chillaxboi2109]

@@ugestacoolie5998 Hers, where is Maokai top?

[@geoDB.]

Tanks are overpowered, wait until durability update that will BREAK the game with having every tank unkillable while still one shotting squishies! Tanks are so overpowered it is insane, there will be like atleast three tanks every game, jungle top and support! As an ADC main, I am truly horrified of the worsening of the long term tank meta that has been in place for years at this point, and wish there was more damage to make games faster and more exciting as it used to be!

[@crusadertsakos4638]

11:07 wtf is happening on screen

[@Trollrijas]

Barren valley from pmd eos :)

[@aaronparry2636]

Gotta say, the best mid-late game counter to juggernauts is a skillfully played Lillia. A good amount of percent health damage and enough mobility to dance around skillshots (and even ghost late game), not to mention the option to build a couple tank items if needed.

[@ericemanuelsson7416]

As a Juggernaut player(mainly Darius) I completely concur, Lillia completely neutralizes everything most juggernauts do, she stays just out of range when going for Q’s and her busted movement speed means that unless I have ghost, flash and Force of Nature I can’t keep up

[@AGuy-0751]

Lillia is cancer and I hate her, you can't touch here ever, she qs once and has 425 ms, and by a full rotation she has double your ms and dodges everything. I play zac so I can at least flash on her

[@aaronparry2636]

@@AGuy-0751 yeah, she is pretty vulnerable early when her q is only level 1/2, but by level 5 (3 points in q), she is a terror to try and catch. And the fact it has ap scaling ms boost makes it even crazier late game

[@notyouraccount6038]

The diference betwen jugernauts in MOBAs and heavy weiths in Smash is the diference betwen heaven and hell. Characters with feel engage opitions work better in games with strong system mecanics. Since they dont have good mobility to get a good position when they are not fighting, they need stuff to do when they are not fighting. LOL has plenty of macro play choices to do, such as pushing lane, chosing which oponent to fight, buying iteims, farming, and helping with objectives.

[@cambrasher3875]

I don’t think I agree with the turn based analogy. Sure assassins “get to go first” but there are so many other factors in a league match. If a Darius or illaoi are one level ahead for whatever reason, it changes your whole game. While ranged champs have the edge on melee in some regards, if a melee goes against a melee, that makes Darius far more dangerous. Essentially counterpicking is the only solution for some of these champs and I think that’s a bad way to balance your game

[@MsMathmath]

But that is the problem as a whole, where do you balance league, in the high elo or the low elo? effectively speaking, those juggernauts will be monsters in low elo, where, yeah, the players won't be able to use these "turns" to their advantage, but in high elo that's completely different, since problably a slow, clunky champ will not even touch a high dps, high speed player if the last don't make a mistake. So i think the problem is not with the class itself, but how it's played and what resources(in the form of bonus or items) are supplied.

[@HuxtableK]

As an Illaoi main, who plays in casual matches and has a regular 70% winrate, it isn't just about playing second due to being slower. It's setting up in your kill zone. Or, for Yorick, having your ghouls or Maiden ready. For those two especially, if you're caught out without your passives, you're basically lost. And with Illaoi especially, if you miss the E, you're boned.

[@slav_bonk1655]

Yeah, true. In low elo, where I reside, seemingly no one knows how to play against Illaoi, so people tend to think she is overpowered and brakes game balance beyond repair. Same goes for every juggernaut, especially if player knows his champ and understands the basics of the game. By the way, yesterday I had a game, where enemy ADC had 200 more health, then me as Aatrox (I didn't build lethality, so I should've been tanky enough, but alas). Oh, yeah, and in every fight enemy team just cancelled my movement speed by endless slow and stuns, so I could not deal any damage or escape. We won, though, thanks to my friend who played well in jungle and decent team efforts.

[@MrWarpPipe]

Finally my favorite class. Illaoi and Urgot my beloved

[@cupidcaught]

tbh i could listen to vars talk about anything for days

[@zetachaox]

I think they perform the tank job better than actual tanks sometimes. Since they are an actual threat, they have to be focused, and that gives the rest of the team the time to do their thing, if you don't focus them, they destroy you. Their built in survivability also makes them the most raid bossy when fed. Mages, assasina and ADCs still die to a couple of mistakes, even when fed.

[@klamerino]

Tanks: tank Adcs: consistent damage Assasins: mobility and burst damage Juggernauts: Yes.

[@Significantharrassment]

Juggernauts: yes I do control the speed at which die

[@klamerino]

@@Significantharrassment Olaf goes brrr

[@JustAJauneArc]

I love juggernauts, my main class, but man do they just feel so...weak this season. I don't know, I've just felt the damage ramp up hella and ever since lord dominiks and grudge became what they are today anyone with either of those items just obliterates me regardless of how fed I might be.

[@tomasmickus6254]

LIke with every class its also player has to make a decision whether to chase down or back off and what to build in what situation. Yes aatrox and Darius can be op, but give them to someone how has no idea what hes doing and he will feed 9 times out of 10

[@dontdieSECond]

I think a similar form of the mobility question is in mmos, specifically ffxiv since that's the one I'm familiar with. There are 3 types of dps in that, melees, casters, and phys rangeds, who don't need to cast. You can usually find some people debating about the balancing of the phys ranged, more than you can the balancing of any other job, because the phys ranged have "mobility tax" on their dps, meaning they deal less because they don't have to stay in melee range, or stay still to cast. The debate comes from the mobility tax having to be calculated not only on the relative mobility of the other jobs, but also how much mobility is needed in the fights, because if a fight for example, has full melee uptime and no movement, then what use is the mobility, the phys ranged are getting taxed for no reason.

[@Da_Devil666]

*laughs in Lillia*

[@cheech_cheech]

Simple. My team Darius goes 0/12 while the enemy Darius Penta dunks

[@OrdanKarris]

I FUCKING LOVE ARCHETYPES!!! tank, sentinel, cavalier, juggernaut, bruiser, berserker, fighter, brawler, marauder, assasin, whatever edgy thing its beyond assasin

[@mkckey2418]

This video quality and the way the rift looks is amazing. Great video concept too but the quality was just so good. Really enjoyed the video

[@widekuma]

Juggernauts are slow Volibear: Lemme introduce myself

[@Izigurand]

Darius: ghost phase rush *There is no god*

[@Alma-bs7un]

Darius: besides me

[@Setonix1-.-1]

There is much i hate about them, when you want to pick tank top, you will loose lane and you will have the same amount of tankines since you are loosing on gold but 0 dmg compared to them, premise of this class is interesting but badly executed, unless you are tank with infinite value ult like malphite or outscale them on two items like orn there is no point on picking tank over them when you want to have fun, but then your team is lacking crucial component and you loose because you have no cc and no value for team, this class is imo so badly designed to be capable of everything yet completely useless for team, i dont wonder why people play vayne so much on top, its the only good counter against this type of things, i would be like if riot added more counters to this class on lane so people wont play them so much because its exhausting to play against it as well as have it in your team…

[@livvyheartex]

Vars my man i would love to see you talking about the lanes as a whole, starting by the jungle, and why is it so important and (imo) why is it TOO important

[@mattbell888]

I think juggernauts tend to do really well into divers, vanguards, and wardens, but matchup poorly against marksmen, artillery, burst/control mages, skirmishers, enchanters, and catchers, and are sort of neutral/it depends vs assassins, battlemages, and other juggernauts. Juggernauts really like it when champions have to get up close to hurt them. They don't like champs that outdps them up close (skirmishers, some battlemages, other juggernauts) or can burst them before they get rolling (some assassins, some battlemages), but they are better off up close then not close at all. Artillery, catchers, and control mages tend to smoke them by keeping them out with range and CC, while marksmen and enchanters can usually control them or DPS them down before they get close. So primarily, they actually exist as a lever to control Divers and Vanguards. Think about it. Vanguards generally just roll over most other classes if they can just weather all the damage and get up in your face and beat the snot out of you. They really only hate skirmishers, but because Vangaurds shine so much in teamfights, where skirmishers are worst, they have ways out. Divers are usually the same, you can't burst them out like you can assassins, and they have lots of explosive, disruptive CC and damage. Some can even beat down skirmishers. Wardens generally exist to stop these classes, but aren't capable of being teamwide threats in their own right. And in the same way that Divers differ from Wardens, so to do Juggernauts differ from Wardens. Trade extra crowd control for more damage. Most classes in the game have some sort of tradeoff from an adjacent class or two and exist only in their relationship (in general) to other classes. Every class is naturally countered by some component of another class. Assassins hate tanky targets they can't burst. Divers hate slippery marksmen. If you build a teamcomp, and you draft some high range characters to snub out some battlemage or control mage, and the opponent responds with dive, then you can respond with a Juggernaut or Warden for close range damage. Very few classes are good in isolation. If Divers and Vanguards and Assassins are strong, Juggernauts, Catchers and Wardens rise up to answer them. If Juggernauts and Wardens and Catchers are strong, Skirmishers and Enchanters and Artillery become strong.

[@hqhuy931]

I love playing yorick and urgot and mordekaiser and sometimes illaoi, though she lacks consistency compared to the former. They are just impossible to kill while ahead, tanking up most of the frontline damage no problem while dishing out twice the damage a carry should do. I also like playing against juggernauts because we're both slow and we can actually, honestly hit eachother unlike the game of dodge the skillshot and predict the dash with all those assassin. Juggernauts are for straightforward people who want to get in their opponents face and smack them

[@laicord]

I think that an interesting passive for a future juggernaut could be something like "you get from X to Y% movement speed based on your current health" this would make it so that once they use their cooldowns, you are realistically able to get counterplay, and also introduces risk and reward which is mostly an healthy thing in videogames. ofcourse I thought of this passive imagining that the numbers would be pretty high like 20-30% at max and the champion in question won't have any other form of movement

[@nothanks6216]

As an avid juggernaut player, if I'm running ghost, dead man's and FoN, no DPS by themselves should be able to use their CC abilities (Jhin root/trap, Jinx trap/zap, Cait trap/net) more than once before I catch up to them. If they delete me in that time, all's fair, but Jhin shouldn't be able to spam root me 3 times before I've closed half the distance.

[@zeusz3237]

Ok, let's say juggernauts are easy to kite, and if you dodge the one ability that could prevent you in that (Illaoi's, Darius's and Mordekaiser's "E" for example), than yeah, it is kind of well made point... But Nasus's "W"? I am actually curious where is the counterplay there? You get a 90% movement speed decreese point and click! OK let's say you will fight your way out! No you won't... You are either a mage and die in 2 hits while can't oneshot him, or you are an assasin, who is doomed in that situation most likely, an ADC, who is also doomed, since your DPS is reliant on attack speed a lot, you are a tank and altough you can survive longer, he will outdamage you... And the CD is almost as long as the duration... He has no mobility, but he makes up for it by getting rid of most of YOUR mobility! While having an infinitely scaling damage, that is easy to stack... I can't lane against Mordekaiser and always ban him, but if you would ask the question of me, what one ability should be removed completely, I would say Nasus's current "W" without hesitation... It is an ability that remained from a different game, with different rules, from a long time ago...

[@DennyDormant]

As a Mundo Jungle main, nothing compares to the sheer satisfaction from starting the game so weak to running down the enemy ADCs under tower and running out unscathed. I feel these are my favorite champions because of the simplicity they have. I'm not mechanically inclined but i can outwit my opponents and choose my battles wisely enough to obtain that raw power to overwhelm them.

[@davidunkown1925]

I may be misunderstanding the "classes" but my big issue with juggernauts is the ability to heartsteel + Titanic hydra (or AP equivalent) and build tank and match dps in AD 😅 >.>.... mundo

[@michaelbowman6684]

In Heroes of the Storm, these kinds of champions would be classified as "Bruisers" which I think I've heard used in other games beyond just MOBAs, but basically it means having some form of tankiness or sustain, as well as the capability to dish out decent chunks of damage. You don't have the same level of durability as a tank or the burst of an assassin, and you don't have any hard CC and are usually lacking robust mobility options, and while you might have abilities that have an "extended" range, you aren't going to be sniping anyone with anything from far away, and if you do have some kind of long distance ability, it's probably very reactable, you'll see it coming from a mile away, or it does relatively minor amounts of damage. You more than likely have mana inefficiencies in your kit meaning you need to be selective with your abilities and not just spam them as well. A hero (champion) that I feel embodies this really well in Hots specifically is Ragnaros. His Q empowers his next auto attack, makes it have an AoE effect, and functions as an auto reset. His W summons a meteor that rolls across the ground, and you can choose what direct it rolls in, and his E empowers himself or an ally with bonus movement speed for a short duration, then after it expires it explodes for some AoE damage. Like basically every other hero in HotS, he has the option of 2 different ultimate abilities, but the one I feel would fit League better would be the one where he summons a giant hammer at a targeted location which does high (but easily avoidable) damage. His other option summons a lava wave in one of the three lanes starting from your nexus, then goes down the lane killing all enemy minions it comes across and does pretty high damage against any enemy who stands in it otherwise. And it's visible on the map regardless of team affiliation and it has a global audio que, meaning you know it's coming to get out of the way ahead of time.

[@madsgrams2069]

I don't like these champions...their lack of mobility makes them really dull to play. They're very...reactive and not at all proactive. I'm a dedicated top laner and I honestly much rather prefer to play high-risk divers that most people only play in the jungle (Xin Zhao, Olaf, Jarvan IV) or squishy skirmishers (like Fiora) than things like Darius, Garen, Nasus, Illaoi, Urgot or Mordekaiser. The only one I find even remotely fun to play is Sett. Otherwise...no thanks. Also, while they can be VERY STRONG in certain situations, it's because most of them are annoying lane bullies that rely on specific match-ups to get by. Put them in front of a Jayce, Gangplank or Gnar (heaven forbid someone like Vayne, Quinn or Akshan) and....they're really, REALLY effed.

[@The-cyber-imbiber]

So is what you're saying that the reason I feed on Rengar/Talon/etc. is NOT because the lose stats checks on basically every other fighter, but because I suck and don't know what a good first move is?

[@mikemartin6748]

I think this analysis falls short. You mention that Zed can burst a juggernaut in 2s by "going first", but dropping that much damage in 2 seconds would imply that his DPS is very high. In reality, Zed's DPS isn't very high, but he does have high burst and very high mobility, so he can engage quickly, burst his opponent, then disengage quickly before there can be any counterplay onto him. LOL doesn't really have a clean analogue to turn-based combat like Pokemon and forcing it doesn't really add anything that can't be better explained with concepts like DPS, burst, engage, and disengage.

[@Dima666Air]

I like how riot games like: yeah, juggernauts deal tons of damage and has tons of survivability but you can kiting them And you when you try to run from almost any juggernaut and cant if your champion not somthin from modern league with 10 dashes: yeah