New York - Kennedy ATC GETS ANGRY WITH AER LINGUS!

[@BollocksUtwat]

90% of the people in this comment section know little to nothing about how ATC actually works. Pilot hero syndrome dominates their inexpert opinions. Here's what a real controller thinks: _I know the controller in that tape, and I know the circumstances surrounding this event. I listened to the whole thing, and I totally understand what happened there. I've been in that situation many times. it is one of the reasons why ground delays due to weather are perhaps a bit longer than they need to be. We have a very dense airspace, and each airport within N90 boundaries has it's allocated airspace and departure tracks. You deviate from one, and you're going into another, which belongs to somebody else. If you can't fly the assigned route immediately after departure, then why did they accept that takeoff clearance?_ _What happened in that particular situation on that day, GREKI was one of the few fixes that were open at the time, and departures out of EWR, LGA, JFK, HPN, TEB and MMU (those last two go over Brezy first then Greki) were being launched at the same time. When the Air Lingus got up, and turned the wrong way, they missed their gap reference the other departures from the other airports, and he couldn't just drive through LGA departure airspace, not to mention that try NOT penalize all the other aircraft flying their routes for the one that didn't comply. The best option is to do exactly what he did, hold him until another gap that the aircraft can hit becomes available._ jetcareers.com/forums/threads/shamrock-104-heavy-vs-nyc-atc.262634/page-2#post-2801516

[@rubenvillanueva622]

P*Funk Excellent! Thank you for that. I have retired from ATC, but, when I first listened, I knew there had to be some other contributing factors. So now we can see why the controller became frustrated, seeing his slot go out the window.

[@VASAviation]

Thank you very much for sharing that. Pinned comment earned!

[@bradleyberard5883]

P*Funk I'm neither a pilot nor a controller but I completely agree with you. In fact, I was a bit irritated by the way the pilot was "behaving"

[@frgpilot]

I don't agree with you at all. As both a pilot and passenger I have been in situations where what ATC is seeing is vastly different in terms of weather than what a PIC is seeing in the left seat at altitude. I do agree sometimes pilots make decisions to take advantage of situations. However, given the insane weather NY has seen this week and the the fact that regulations state the pilot in command has final discretion to accept or decline ATC, the pilot was 100% in the right here. The pilot thought he could fly the accepted route, saw weather that would not allow that when airborne and made a decision in the interest of his passengers and aircraft...period.

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

In my non-expert opinion, we have a set of conflicting goals, the pilot is not comfortable flying the course given by ATC, ATC just has had no prior issues routing other aircraft that way nor reports that the weather is bad. I don't see a reason to be chippy, because that makes a crappy situation worse. If your recourse as ATC is to have him do donuts till the pilot gets dizzy then do that, I think there was probably a better way to relay the information that the course ahead was the best possible route though. At the end of the day the PIC is the one that has to deal with the consequences of ATCs choices.

[@Sawta]

The airplane version of, "Oh yeah? Well, my dad can beat up your dad!"

[@gooberthoreau]

I think I interpreted the conflict differently than most of the comments. To me, the pilot took issue with ATC saying "you got yourself into this situation" and interpreted that to mean ATC felt the pilot had made a mistake of some kind, thus the battle to try and clear their names (both ATC and the pilot) began. Classic high stress communication breakdown.

[@DJDangerHouse01]

Agree with this analysis ^^

[@APCLZ]

@Craven Moorehead wrong, it's their plane, safety is their first priority. you trust YOUR equipment before any ATC. there was a fatal incident where 2 planes collided in air as their equipment was telling one plane to descent, while the other plane to go up... unfortunately, an ATC told the plane that had their TCAS saying descent to go up instead and the other one only listened to their TCAS and wasnt able to hear the ATC. the result of that was both planes crashed into eachother. the ASB immediately ruled that TCAS is ALWAYS priority over ATC and it should be with any equipment unless proven faulty imo.

[@ThatSB]

@@APCLZ yeah, not in NY bud. You can see 3 of the busiest airports in the world from the top of your building. If you can not take thr assigned route, you stay on the ground. That is like driving a car onto the freeway blindfolded, and telling your navigator "no thanks, I am going to drive the opposite side of the highway first. Make those cars move around me"

[@abdul-hadidadkhah1459]

@@ThatSB lol newark and la garbage arent even close to being the busiest in the world. Aircraft safety is more important than what city you live in...

[@ThatSB]

@@abdul-hadidadkhah1459 I live and work here under the airspace in question. It isnt about living here that makes it more important. It is the air traffic. And what are you smoking? What is the busiest airspace then? You mention Newark and Laguardia and completely ignore JFK. Newark itself might not be the busiest airport but that doesn't matter because two more major airports are within miles of it. Hence why you don't get to claim "aircraft safety" when you are endangering the patterns for 3 major airports the criss cross. Not to mention the helicopter traffic and the traffic from the handful of smaller airports all within miles of Newark. Or even traffic passing headed for other major airports in the far vicinity like Boston. You dont get to play around and not follow ATC instruction when you roll through this town. If you need space to fuck around you could instantly be diverting 30 planes

[@johnk2743]

Considerring the stress for both I think they did well. Both recognized the constraints of their situation and acted as they thought was best. Let the tone (controller) and complaint (pilot) be the cost of their huge skills and adaptivety. They vented their emotion and so cleared their system to continue their duties. I commend them both!

[@arliesam217]

Well said

[@TheHobade]

Rubbish!!!

[@erichert1001]

If you, as PIC, feel that your assigned route is unsafe you have the responsibility to deviate. However, especially in busy class B like New York, that may mean a hold or delay vectors afterwards until you can be resequenced, it's not carte blanche to do what you'd like.

[@seraphina985]

Just have to remember that while yes as PIC you have ultimate responsibility for the safety of your aircraft and have to do what you feel is safe, but ATC does also have responsibility to keep a whole sky full of aircraft safe and are due to same courtesy while they do what they need to do in order to do that job.

[@seraphina985]

@irshi Well ATC is always working to ensure all the aircraft in their care are safe and will do everything in their power to aid an aircraft in distress, but they will not jeopardise the safety of other aircraft to do so nor should you expect them to do so. My point was simply that yes at no point should a pilot accept a clearance they judge to be unsafe, but that such a decision should never be taken frivolously either nor should the pilot expect ATC to immediately be able to resolve the conflict your decision creates either. ATC is not in the habit of making frivolous requests so by refusing you are almost certainly putting them in the position of having to issue instructions to one or more other aircraft to protect them from you while they plan around your limitations to the best of their ability to facilitate a safe outcome for all the aircraft in their care. Sure it may not be obvious to you why it is taking time to resolve the situation but ATC are professionals doing an important and stressful job to keep everyone safe and it's important to respect that, sorry but if you think they are being petty and personally taking it out on you that is almost certainly a you problem as is you taking that as an excuse to act like a prize dick the reality is that you are being an ass to someone that is simply doing their best to help you.

[@Belchmaster41]

@@seraphina985 patience is crucial, but many people can't be calm before they go crazy. If you are asked to wait, then you have to do your part & comply

[@daodyrakotomalala787]

I agree with you but he does not have to have that attitude of it is not the first time for me out of New York then he should have known that it is quite cramped and the ATC has to look for the best option to slot him in again, he made him hold until he found a way, not that many options out of New York

[@joevenuti1201]

Clearly ATC was doing a great job. The Irish pilot was just a cunt.

[@decline2state]

If only Kennedy Steve had been there . . .

[@toemblem]

I miss Kennedy Steve.

[@kg4boj]

EARTH TO DELTA TUG 2!!!

[@ronrolfsen3977]

@@kuber5987 These operators do not have a fixed position if I am not mistaken. Even within the shift that can change.

[@timjohnson5418]

I was thinking the same exact thing!

[@heinz551]

@@kuber5987 Steve did all posts. Give Captain Joe's interview with Kennedy Steve a watch on here, it's pretty interesting

[@adam207321]

If kenedy Steve was up there at that time he would have mocked the 104 pilot for consuming the microphone

[@normajeanettevaughn425]

Lol...love love love Steve.

[@slappymcgillicuddy7532]

well he ran ground control, so..

[@ridernotrunner]

@@slappymcgillicuddy7532 that's not strictly true. He ran tower from time to time, although he had the opportunity for some of his "best work" with the more casual setting on ground control. Controllers rotate field positions, but I don't believe he ever did radar control. However, I'm not an expert.

[@thejakey46]

At the end of the day he has to follow SOPs and not turn into bad weather on his weather radar just because ATC told him to. It’s actually recommended that if PIC feels the route is unsafe he/she should request an amended clearance.

[@Ergzay]

Pilot wasn't wrong in what he did but neither was the ATC. Pilot changed what the plan was after takeoff and thus suffered the repercussions from doing so. He shouldn't be complaining about being made to wait.

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

hallelujah....someone gets it.

[@JLB-eu3wk]

Just like that. He must have thought he was somehow being punished, but the truth is he was Just being accomodated to the new situación

[@dennisgordon2789]

Precisely, he accepted the departure clearance, after briefing, knowing full well what was ahead of him. He could easily have easily delayed his departure until he felt more comfortable with the prevailing weather conditions. I chalk this up to "get-there-itis" and a total lack of regard for accepted operating procedures in some of the world's busiest airspace.

[@falcon759]

@ispumpkinking "The ATC acted like a childish ass making a snide comment." What video were you watching? The controller makes no childish/snide comments here.

[@ShuRugal]

@@dennisgordon2789 ​& Richard Vaughn pilot said he had a weather cell showing on his on-board weather radar that he could not fly though. prior to takeoff, his radar was incapable of showing him that cell. if the radar disagrees with what was planned and briefed, trust the radar, not the briefing, and keep the plane safe.

[@drumsandpaints]

Not speaking as an expert but imo the pilot first did the right thing when he did not comply with ATC. If he thinks its unsafe because of the wheather thats fine. But when he does that he has to know that he just cannot go back to the normal route immediatly. The ATC accepted his decision and lead him around until there was an opening. He "snapped" at the pilot when he repeadetly asked him to go to GRKI directly.

[@piggy201]

Anybody noticed the black and white grid looks like a grumpy blob monster?

[@Fuzy2K]

LOL it looks like a pissed off boxing glove

[@boahneelassmal]

Both were right in what they did. They both checked each other. Pilot said he doesn't like the way, controller advised no issues with previous flight going this way, pilot stuck with his decision not wanting to go where controller wanted. That's acceptable. He offered a routing that was more to his liking which the controller couldn't accept for fair and square reasons. Aer Lingus didn't mourn about the hold but advised tower continuously of what they'd prefer / what would be possible in their eyes. The controller on the other hand was due to weather really stressed leaving him - understandably - with little patience thus heating up quite quickly. I think this is why many people have an issue with this situation in the first place. if the controller remained (cooler than ice) ice cold nobody would've batted an eye (or ear) Both did their job. Both accepted the others were doing there job. Now, EI could've declined take-off in the first place if they knew they couldn't go their assigned rout anyways, but what the radar show from one position can be a lot different than what it shows from another position. We don't know what showed on the WxRadar. So no need to blame anybody here. It was the system at work, not more, not less.

[@EmilyTestAccount]

fancy terminal charts, smooth animated plane visualizations, clouds done with mspaint

[@buckwheatjones762]

ATP, 10K hrs heavy. For petes sake, he accepted the clearance because onboard radar probably didn't show a 40k' cell on the departure path. When he got a little closer, it lit up. No, PIC didn't want to turn his airplane upside down or bend a wing. ATC is seeing NexRad on a minimum of 5min delay, and claimed nobody else is complaining. There also were no departures for the last 10 mins at least as the ground hold had been in place for a while, so that was a bit bogus (WHAT a/c had no complaints?). A WHOLE lot can happen with TRWs in 5 mins of a NexRad sweep, or 15 mins since last westbound release. The controller's sarcastic belittling of this crew by steering him in circles off the departure end of the runway using at least 30 separate heading changes and tieing up the freq for at least 15 mins is ridiculous. He put a lot of people and a/c in a precarious position because of his temper. Everytime 104 flew across the departure path, multiple times for about 10 mins, he created dozens of TCAS blasts. And in the process he was giving the crew a sarcastic tongue lashing like they were little children. I'd bet if we looked at this a bit closer, there was probably another alternative/heading/alt other than the silly penalty circles. In any event, I'd do just as probably every other pilot would do - just as this crew did. FARs are quite clear that PIC has priority in any given safety situation. Security violations are some of the few exceptions. I just wouldn't have wanted to be either of these guys on that day, especially the controller. *Sup should have pulled him right away*; as soon as he saw this getting out of hand. When all the stars line up along with a NY temperament, we can expect the dangers that ensued in this event. Thankfully it went without incident that day, but we're lucky.

[@5153flash]

I have no idea what I just watched but I think someone turned the wrong way .

[@jonathancassels4835]

The airplane took off and was told to fly straight. His equipment on board told him there was bad weather if he did that, so he asked for permission to go around it. But, in busy airspace, it wasn't possible to give him permission to go around it... so he got put into a holding pattern and didn't like it.

[@gunny2shoes102]

thank you, same here , lol

[@spudwish]

And same here. No idea what the "clouds" in the vid meant either, if clouds = bad weather then going north looked perfectly clear. But again, no idea about any of this...

[@TheMarker510]

Bring back Kennedy Steve to defuse!

[@ryanwilson2665]

Great work again with the ATC tape and visuals 😃

[@VASAviation]

Thank you, Ryan!

[@oscarnovember]

@2:20 it is an EGT “peak” not “pick”.

[@Stitchwitchstitch]

I’m not a pilot or ATC, but I find this kind of stuff fascinating! I love knowing how systems work- they’re so scientific and technological but intermingled so much with humans, and each have their own fallibilities- well, i have an immense appreciation for both atc and pilots. It’s because of that teamwork and capability that all my flights went terrifically (and if there were problems, it was handled so well that most of us passengers had no clue)!

[@SwapBlogRU]

It is interesting to look into how systems work. Listening to these recordings as someone who hasn't studied how air traffic control works - you start to pick up on certain patterns and the logic of it all after a while. And it makes you respect the human problem solving mind, with how they invent these protocols, how they make certain changes to them after something goes wrong. It is pretty awesome.

[@pilot_micah]

Definitely feel like the pilot did the right thing to remain in safe conditions, however in a busy airspace like that I don’t understand how he can get upset with atc for that

[@josephdale69]

Micah Wade If there was weather over Grecki that he didn’t like, then he shouldn’t have accepted the clearance.

[@railgap]

The pilot doesn't know everything going on, the controller does.

[@ronrolfsen3977]

@@railgap But the pilot, in this case, knew what was going on. Might be his instrument where wrong, but they seem to state it was unsafe for him to go where they wanted him to go. Not that the ATC did anything wrong either. However, the pilot is responsible for the plane.

[@futureshock7425]

this one is great! I had to see the comments to see what the pros are saying about this one

[@deepposeidon289]

I am surprised the controller didn't ask him to remove the mic from down his throat... *Vatsim sad face*

[@jonathanchester5916]

NYC airspace is pretty intense, even that should be clear to the casual or novice aviator. Had a great ride outta La Guadia 2 years ago through bad weather and every time we saw a break in the clouds below us on climb there was traffic. Now imagine marshalling that lot for an 8 hour shift or whatever. Hats off the controller.

[@boooster101]

That's the reason why ATCs are only working 120 minutes tops without a half hour break, excluding emergencies. The work is demanding insane concentration and no human can keep that up for 8 hours straight. And even if you could, you would work yourself into the grave in just a few weeks.

[@dpm-jt8rj]

VASAviation I will never cease being amazed on how quickly you get these videos out. Nice work on the video.

[@VASAviation]

Thanks for the support!

[@jrhunter007]

Air Lingus boss likely told their pilot to "get over it"'. The controllers boss likely said "so what's the problem?"

[@chasekruse7047]

ATC responded to his boss with "another prick pilot thinking he's the only man in the sky"

[@garyhutton2654]

@@chasekruse7047 American atcare the worst for sure

[@VASAviation]

*We all have bad days but it's not OK to reprimand a guy who is trying to keep his aircraft in a safe position* OPINIONS WELCOME!

[@pmvaldez1]

VASAviation - exactly. I'm a long haul truck driver and I make the final call on whether to proceed into bad weather. Not my dispatch or the broker or the customer. If I jackknife into a school bus during a snowstorm it's my ass that is in trouble, not theirs.

[@phapnui]

Agreed. Pilot rightly expressed his concern. Pilots have the rights and responsibilities for safe operation of their aircraft. ATC failed to take that into account.

[@rickypbrown1]

I agree to not reprimand on the R/T, but he did accept a takeoff clearance knowing full well he would not be able to fly the SID. He should have mentioned this before being in the air...no way ATC can anticipate it when other aircraft have been flying the route without issue.

[@Antonio_4]

True, he shouldn't have snapped at the EI pilot. Those 893 jets that all made that left turn to GREKI prior to EI104 mean very little. The dynamic factor of weather is always tricky. The way this ended was unnecessary too though, in my opinion. If I were the pilot in this scenario I would've shown some understanding for the weather chaos at an already crazy busy JFK too. After all, the controller did pretty decent after that lil altercation. I wouldn't have ended with those threaths and just let it slip.

[@rubenvillanueva622]

A very interesting situation. First, I agree that the PIC has the last say on how the flight will be operated, that is a given. Secondly, I do see the frustration of the controller. The previous departures accepted their clearance, and departed via vectors to Greki, so when EIN 104, did not, it messed him about. Viewing the Wx displayed, and knowing the pilots view, a radar vector to the south and then East, paralleling the previous (Greki) departures, until such time a climb and turn NW to Greki could be issued, might have worked. EIN104, was not placed into a hold, he was vectored. This delay may have been while a new clearance was worked up. One last thing, the pilot could have delayed his departure, and wait out the wx while on the ground. (Could crew time,have been a factor on his decision to depart?) To much gabbing on the radio, not good nor professionally handled by both parties.

[@smartyrdumb4681]

ATC got that Jersey attitude..

[@Tendomcgoobin]

You need that survive as a JFK ATC

[@rinleez]

Respect to the Aer Lingus pilot for trusting his weather radar and putting safety first, despite that decision putting them in an annoying hold. I hate flying and I rarely fly with Aer Lingus as they're not exactly a cheap airline, but whenever I did end up flying with them, it was the most relaxed I ever felt on a plane.

[@pjs835]

It’s not an “annoying hold” the sequencing in that airspace is ridiculously complicated and approach/departure controllers there are almost always saturated. I understand why the pilot did what he did but it throws a wrench in the sequencing and it takes a lot to work an aircraft back in especially when you have 20+ flight strips to work in.

[@rinleez]

@@pjs835 Still, I feel like safety should always come first and the pilot's decision should be respected. The controller was audibly annoyed by that approach.

[@andreea007]

​@@rinleezFrom what I saw, the pilot agreed to a route on departure. Then, while on air, he decided to deviate. Then asked the contoller to deviate the other flying planes so that he could get back on track. Could be that his initial deviation had to do with safety concerns, and that's understandable. But then again, why ask the ATC to deviate the others instead of waiting for a safe slot so he could get back in? Not fair for the other pilots.

[@user-mp9rd4hg8b]

@@andreea007 Besides that, several other aircraft accepted the same clearance and followed through on to their destination. The only aircraft that didn't was Aer Lingus. He got up in the air and changed his mind, which is fine if that's what he feels like he needs to do, but now ATC has to babysit him. So yeah, ATC was annoyed… especially when the pilot started asking to be prioritized for insertion into the sequence for departures. It's a classic, "you made your bed now lie in it."

[@leechjim8023]

​@@user-mp9rd4hg8b!!!AMEN!!!

[@cdub2727]

Just sounds like a frustrating day at work for both pilots and controllers. I don't think you can ever really fault the PIC for making decisions that regard to safety but both he an the controller could have worked better together to come up with the safest and most efficient plan without the bickering... That being said they're humans just like you and me so they aren't invulnerable to frustration and emotions. I'm sure if they ever had the opportunity to sit down together and go over the situation a second time they would be able to step in each others shoes and come to a respectful understanding :)

[@n16161]

This is the nicest and most well-worded comment I have read in a while, Chad. Cheers.

[@RobTi]

Very well said. Have a good one.

[@crimony3054]

Translated: Pilot: My God, do you see that UFO ahead of us? ATC: It hasn't hit anyone else. Shut up and fly.

[@SantiBotero]

"It's not my first day in New York, it's not my first day in an aircraft" Ouch

[@fhuber7507]

But it could end up his last...

[@royveldboom7266]

That was another nasty little radio exchange. It was a tense situation with high stakes but yowch.

[@deltaboy767]

I agree 100% with the Shamrock Pilot, as an former Airline Pilot I WOULD not put MY aircraft that's right MY aircraft In a dangerous thunderstorm cell if my radar showed danger I don't give a damn if the previous 50 plance went through it, weather can change in seconds and minutes, and pose danger to aircraft especially at lower speeds and lower altitudes.

[@jafetcastillo7251]

​@@deltaboy767 no further word, is the way it is.

[@alex2143]

@@deltaboy767 Agreed, the pilot is ultimately responsible for the safety of his aircraft. That being said, the ATC is responsible for getting pilots up in the air and back down again, and had to manage many more pilots while all these pilots have authority to overrule him if they deem it necessary. If the pilot thought it unsafe, he was right not to go near the thunder storm, and he should not be chewed out by ATC for flying his airplane as he deems safe. That being said, ATC has to manage a lot of airplanes safely in a small airspace with poor conditions, and if the ATC decides that the only way to properly manage this is to hold Shamrock for a while, that is his call to make. And I don't think it was necessary or professional for the pilot to go back on the offensive towards the ATC. The whole situation would not have happened if both sides weren't that busy waving their dicks around.

[@Panhead49EL]

I think the PIC has the right and responsibility to judge the cell for himself. But after that he has to accept whatever holding pattern the ATC gives him.

[@alexanderhadjikrastev4023]

Do you write over a vector image of the airport or do you download it from somewhere?

[@WilliamViets]

The airline was named after Connie Lingus.

[@vanlifeonthego6684]

Well played. You're speaking of the area near the landing strip I assume. Their call sign should be Gee Spot

[@ThatSB]

Literally every plane going that direction except him 😂

[@BeCoShooter]

Thanks for posting.

[@consolemaster]

AER LINGUS wants to head out quick, but, other aircrafts from the other airport nearby was coming as well. Nothing that AER LINGUS can do to make it faster. I guess the pilot wants to jeapardize the risk of safety in the name of quickness.

[@pjs835]

This is one of those situations where ATC and the pilot were right in their frustrations. Pilot has to follow his equipment and the controller is most likely saturated and traffic must be crazy difficult in that airspace, especially when pilots aren’t taking turns and messing up the sequencing.

[@climbfl410]

2:17 I think it‘s „peak“ - not „pick“ 😏 Thanks for your great channel 😃

[@VASAviation]

It definitely is :)

[@suekamm]

I'm not a pilot, but I've read most of the comments here. Two questions: Does ATC equipment show a wider look at the weather than that on an aircraft? Couldn't ATC radar have seen weather the Shamrock pilot's didn't?

[@jackmorrison7379]

I'm with VAS It is not right to reprimand a captain for reading his weather instruments and trying to keep his aircraft out of dangerous cells. I know New York attitude :) and there is some of it here, complete with a streetwise badda bing accent. Not a good day all around and yes I know ATC has a tough and mentally taxing job. But keep your cool and be professional.

[@TheFrogInYourClosetWatchingYou]

I think some people genuinely think the mic goes inside of their mouth.

[@Jorgespino]

Could it be that the WX displayed on ATC radar had a delayed image compared to the airplane’s real time WX Radar?

[@rael5469]

Good question.

[@duomusicoffical]

The same ATC that always gets pilots mad all the time 😂

[@bechirbenothman5453]

atc is not a person you know? :')

[@nikovbn839]

@@bechirbenothman5453 context - * exists *

[@michaelmesicek2235]

@@bechirbenothman5453 An Air Traffic Controller is a not a person?

[@bechirbenothman5453]

@@michaelmesicek2235 not a single person with initials A.T.C xD xD... u didn't get the joke, did you?

[@judgemarshall6127]

Timing is everything and Fate is its master.

[@CV-ly6ct]

Great Vid

[@Jdalio5]

That's a lot of unnecessary chatter on freq atc shouldnt give be giving lessons, move on or file a report.

[@gotacallfromvishal]

if i were in that cab in an airspace as crowded and hectic as nyc and some loser accepted a clearance, then in air said he didn't want to take the turn because he was scared, then i try to get him on his way meanwhile 6 other airplanes take the exact turn he wouldn't AND THEN he says that i was in the wrong? nuh uh i'm going to explain to him how it works in new york. this isn't shannon or munich

[@falcon759]

The pilot is the one who was gave the butt-hurt speeches at the end. Controller had already said "good day" to him.

[@lennyp2237]

I got a question, would the pilot have seen that weather cell before he accepted the take off clearance or does his equipment only show the weather cell once he is in the air?

[@VASAviation]

I'm sure they saw the weather before takeoff but remember they were instructed "runway heading" after departure. That cell I tried to represent was a little off to the left of the extended centerline so they supposed they would receive vectors to avoid that cell. Then the DEP ATC instructed a left turn that got them directly into the cell and that's why they requested to keep on runway track. That's my guess.

[@JerryLaw]

They can see the weather on their screen but their is a delay on displaying it right after the turn for the line up. Some pilot will ask for a delay of 10-20sec so they can make the decision to take off and if it’s ok for take off will a heading they want work with the ATC or if it’s that bad they may say we will wait and taxi off the runway. Other problems is the weather radar does look 360* around the plane and also if the cell is bad enough it might hide other cell behind it.

[@boyousef544]

if your taking off rw 22 your clearance is to maintain rwy hdg and expect radar vectoring to greeki so the pilot didnt know about the left turn before take off and even if he did , some wx radar wont show an acurate wx picture on ground .

[@ikarlhd1]

lenny p Also wouldn't have the radar on when getting the clearance (at the gate) as it frys us ground workers

[@pearlyshells2430]

Weather cells move...they are not stationary!!!!!!!!!!!

[@Lizzie-sp5dq]

Shocking exchange! ..and these people are in charge of our lives once we board! The outcome of 'my people will contact your people' would be interesting

[@cdreid9999]

that ATC got his ass chewed.

[@michaelwilliams9234]

My guess is that the NY Tracon said “okay? What do you want us to do about it?” And Aer Lingus said “get over it”.

[@asteverino8569]

This one few minutes in time, makes me glad I never trained for ATC career. Way too much to handle for me.

[@rosen9425]

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get KJFK as your very first assignment anyway

[@asteverino8569]

Addictive_LiquoriCe Yes, I realize that. And only if I made the grade at all. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@rosen9425]

@@asteverino8569 I was told to apply for training. Never did. This job would kill me or someone else or both at the same time. I'm hearing our local airport will be using CAMERAS and have one central TWR for multiple airports. Now that's high-level bullshit for sure.

[@philipmcniel4908]

The first subtitle should say, "Shamrock 104 heavy, any sign of GREKI opening up?"

[@JamesGJGSUSHI]

I think that both the pilot and ATC were at fault here. The pilot needed to accept the fact that GREKI was not possible, as the controller stated. The controller, however, shouldn't pressure a pilot to go through a cell "because every one else has"

[@losttownstreet3409]

Never do something because every one else does. Some planes take heavy weather quit well some not. Some pilots fly through weather and some other doesn't know to handle this weather. Add the airline standards for handling and you get multiple results. If you look at the tests for a new airplane type you get to the point where the human factor is the limit of the construction (12g+ 6g-). There isn't a real danger of dead passanger with a modern jet, but the danger of injuries are real.

[@olivieronrails]

US atc phraseology is the worst of all. Non standard, just rubbish

[@kleinbottleprod]

This might be true for military fighter jets, transport category aircraft have a load factor limit of 2.5g and -1g , depends a bit on the aircraft but these are the minimums which for example are the case for the A320. This is not a lot, in fact even less than the humble C172 that I fly.

[@musicalmelodies3595]

Then knowing that Jgsushi, the captain shouldn't have accepted clearance. End of story. He claims it was not first time in NY, maybe as a tourist, because as a pilot he seemed very Amateur. Sorry that's all I got from that

[@musicalmelodies3595]

If you can't play in NY with, don't cry in NY

[@OninDynamics]

Is that weather MS Paint?

[@NotArcticHD]

U mad?

[@OninDynamics]

@@NotArcticHD i don't even know what i was talking about here...

[@Evolution14387]

@@OninDynamics sorry for my kind to be toxic. No worries they can yiff in hell. Good day

[@sparkequinox]

Atc was very salty lol. The "for your delay" punishment was particularly *insert bad word* move. At the end of the day, the pilot is responsible for all souls on board and aircraft safety, some Atc are also pilots, I doubt this one was.

[@BollocksUtwat]

*The "for your delay" punishment was particularly insert bad word move.* "For your delay" is phraseology to explain why you're instructing them to do something. The fact that he had to be delayed is because airspace in New York is so congested that in order to fit anyone into the flow you either get your slot right or you delay until there's a gap and gaps are few and far between, hence the constant turning. ATC is also responsible for safety in the air and they're also responsible for assuring safety while also assuring an expeditious flow of traffic. The refusal to go to GREKI caused no other choice in that congested airspace because you have to keep airplanes apart too.

[@cymbala6208]

P*Funk thank you for your explanations! For non - experts like me it is quite hard to understand what was going on. And I can see why ATC's frustration was building up...I guess the pilot should have been more patient due to circumstances. There is only one thing I would like to point out: the comment 'you got yourself in that position ' was not necessary in my opinion and makes communication non professional. (Please correct me if this was only another standard phraseology ) . As a physician I would never tell a person with a bad lung disease who has smoked lots of cigarettes in his life 'you got yourself in this position' even if I am in a stressful situation or the patient has been rude. Maybe this is not the best comparison but it just came to my mind 😄

[@dijoxx]

New York controllers are a disgrace. It will end in disaster some day.

[@HansCSchellenberg]

Holy shit they fight it out on the channel?

[@jerrybutler605]

Im kinda curious, why didnt the Aer Lingus guy just take Greki like the other flights if they didnt have issues?

[@natedon703]

Will you have the single prop plane in Chicago’s atc soon?

[@ikarlhd1]

Alot of people are missing the point. Captain refusing to fly the weather - acceptable and within his right Atc giving a vectoring hold until they could get the aircraft through/around/over the weather is also acceptable and within their right The attitude and general speech delivery of the controller is the issue. Instead of trying to help the aer lingus/accommodate the weather concern it comes across as 'fuck you for not wanting to fly through it'. No need to ask why and say everyone else has gone through it, your delay and you got yourself here. Just vector the aircraft or give it a vector to a holding fix without the attitude and it would have been fine

[@stephaniedejesus5704]

Listening to these live ATC are usually so enjoyable...unless it's NY ATC. They're so irritating.

[@B3Band]

"without the attitude" Someone doesn't understand how New York City works

[@timsaxer6442]

@@B3Band If you don't think that controller didn't speak with an attitude, you're delusional. And why would you want to brag about that being normal NY attitude? Botton line is that controller has a job because the airplane is there, not the other way around. The only weather that really matters is what's outside the left front window.

[@jr13227]

Stephanie De Jesus I listen to ORD and LAX. Always skillful and professional.

[@IrwinDeGannes]

Well said sir!

[@roncarney9158]

One day, the habit of some pilots having the mic placed directly in front of their mouth, instead of off axis, which can cause totally unnecessary plosive distortion, will be part of a NTSB inquiry!

[@dfw_motorrad1329]

It sounded like it wasn't in front of his mouth, but rather half a foot down his esophagus.

[@zacharytaylor190]

It's a habit private pilots pick up when using low gain microphones in a noisy GA plane. Doesn't translate well to the higher gain of an airline mic and earpiece.

[@robertzeurunkl8401]

The captain might be wrong, or might even be stupid. But in the air, it's his call if he feels there is a safety issue. The controller may be looking at weather reports on his desk, but the captain is looking at the weather right in front of his plane. Interesting video.

[@michaelwilliams9234]

The captain was right to not take the vector. But he also has to understand by not taking the vector in one of the congested areas of airspace in the world, he’s opening himself up to having to hold until he can be cleared back onto his routing. Neither side is right.

[@stephennelson7884]

Welcome to Noo Yoik folks....

[@DrTWG]

You wanna cuppa koawfee huh ?

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

Cause ATC a headache and you'll go in circles.

[@fhuber7507]

Yep, could have circled him until he had to land.

[@rogerdavies6226]

patience is a virtue AND I WANT IN TIGHT NOW---Bust pilot to super cub mail carrier

[@gregmarchegiani6656]

....which is actually on the worldwide list of VFR dream jobs along with commuting passengers on a float plane in the Caribbeans and crop dusting, firefighting and the rest of the real pilot jobs

[@gibsop1]

And this is how pilots avoid unsafe situations. Maybe the we're overly cautious, but it takes a certain type of person to fight that.

[@tiarnan76]

Totally agree

[@merkin22]

He was allowed to avoid the unsafe weather (as he saw it). Then he got all pissy 'cause he had to wait.

[@Lexor888]

@@merkin22 and the ATC got snarky just because that pilot wasn't blindly following the other sheep and dared to act on what he was shown by his equipment (which he classified as unsafe for the crew/passengers/aircraft). Who needs a controller berating you to having put yourself in the situation you're in?

[@stunna6572]

Lexor888 he’s departing jfk and accepted the departure clearance with the weather right in front of him. The controllers in New York have one of the most stressful jobs. The controllers tone wasn’t great but nothing he said was wrong. Gotta love a cautious pilot but both sides could’ve learned and improved from this it was no way one sided

[@djmiller232]

The only thing worse that the ATCs New Yawk attitude is the people in the comments criticizing the work done by VASAviation and making demands for perfection.

[@aniwack]

Two words: Light chop.

[@pannybaek6538]

DAYUM! ATC RADIO CALLS GOT MORE DRAMA THAN JERSEY SHORE!

[@aviopath]

Anyone know what happened to that emirates flight 388 who didnt follow instructions and turned into a no fly zone over Yangon?

[@UnrealNarcissist]

Air Lingus pilot refused the direction due to cell. As such he did create the situation in which he was left to circle until he could be slotted back in.

[@ShaneFleming]

I'm also with Shamrock on this one but if the controller said other aircraft took a left turn, then were they all taking a risk that the Aer Lingus pilot wasn't risking to do?

[@seraphina985]

@@malahammer Actual changes in the weather situation is just one of the factors at play others include aircraft limitations, company limitations (These can be stricter though not looser than the type certificate allows), radar equipment variation (Two radars can "see" the same sky differently and then you have the specifics of how the software interprets that raw radar input which will also vary).

[@racheljennings8548]

JetBlue is always the fall guy in every video

[@JohnyComeLately]

That's the pilot I want

[@jeffreykirk8087]

Interesting that the pilot for Aer Lingus voice was disguised in this recording after the original played that didn't.

[@dravakian]

where's Kennedy Steve when we need him .. I hope he's enjoying his retirement.

[@coreyw7684]

I think both were right up until the PIC decided to be a DIC* and report the controller for doing his job.

[@railotaku]

The Aer Lingus crew would have to tell their superiors the reason for the delay (Weather and ATC). There would probably be some follow up chat between EIN's HQ and NY ATC but I doubt anyone would be fired.

[@johndeltuvia7892]

I'm one of the > FIFTEEN MILLION people who live under the airspace for JFK/LGA/EWR/TEB. ATC's job is to protect us as well. If a pilot is so incompetent to take off when weather is inadvisable for takeoff, and then bitches about ATC vectoring him to protect the people on the ground, then it's completely on him. If he did so because of company rules, then that company should be banned for a period of six months from all PANJ facilities.

[@darius5050]

I at least like how they acted professional about it and didn't start making unnecessary chatter.

[@cjr1881]

Where???!!!!

[@bcflys]

Any ideas why the Shamrock COM system sounds so garbled. He's barely understandable. His headsets and mic must be junk is all I can figure. Everyone else on frequency is 5X5.

[@Bobrogers99]

Two professionals with conflicting safety concerns - possibly not clearly communicated to each other.

[@terrydavis8451]

Dont piss off a drill sergeant or an ATC.

[@tdoster1]

It is easy enough for a pilot to file and not air his grievance in that way. Having the last word after the hand off is where the Shamrock pilot became Captain "Happy" and immortalized on KZbin. Accept clearance, and if it is not safe, hold until it either becomes safe or you can work out another option - in this case it would be hold or return since that was the only road out of town open. Controller gave him the option to get back in line when it was safe to do so, and should have just accepted the instructions and hand off. I don't see anywhere where the controller punished Shamrock other than get him out of line and give him the option to get back in when it was safe to do so without making a bad day worse for the thousands of people in line to get on the same road.

[@enoughofyourkoicarp]

It might be an idea to not piss off ATC, or any ground teams for that matter...

[@TheFrogInYourClosetWatchingYou]

It also might be an idea to not force a pilot in weather he's not comfortable in.

[@hotaru8309]

That thumbnail looks like Strong Bad and confused me scrolling along.

[@Iamwatchingyou75]

Why was Runway heading not avaiable?

[@notafanboy250]

Extremely complex airspace with arrivals/departures out of EWR, JFK, LGA, TEB etc. Not all traffic is shown on this radar overlay.

[@redgt3244]

Tipical NYC ATC.

[@publicmail2]

First controller sounds like everything he says is followed by "yea, you gotta problem with that" Wow these controllers put him on their shit list, I wonder what set it off other than the taxiway. I am sure all the tapes will be looked at.

[@00BillyTorontoBill]

his request after takeoff. Thats when it went gnarly.

[@gotacallfromvishal]

he had no attitude. it's new york, people are up front. and he explained to the pilot the reason which he did. if you don't like it why don't you go deal with chinese atc where they cannot handle any ambiguity

[@immikeurnot]

@@gotacallfromvishal People in New York are "up front"? No, they have attitude.

[@TheMasterhomaster]

immikeurnot so ALL New Yorkers have an attitude? Seems like you have an attitude towards all New Yorkers. You’re the definition of prejudice.

[@Dhalin]

@@immikeurnot You apparently have never been to Noo Yawk. It's just how people talk there commonly. Not that they have attitudes, it's just how their voice and mannerisms carry. Though in this particular situation, I would not be surprised if the ATC had a bit of a "Really!?" moment when dealing with the pilot in question. Can't fault the guy for being mildly annoyed. But can't fault the pilot for wanting to play it safe either. It's just one of those things you gotta shrug off and go 'whatever, it happened'. The pilot threatening to call his boss to get the ATC in trouble is just eye-roll though. Seriously just get over it.

[@tomjordan378]

This is Kennedy not Dublin. The Aer Lingus pilot should have been more prepared to accept a hold if he couldn’t fly the same SID/departure clearance as the other aircraft in front of him.

[@xx3868]

I'm a bit rusty on my ATC, whats a Greki?

[@thestorymachine8872]

It's a SID waypoint in the New York area.

[@brendanstanton7079]

what a hero flying the aircraft hot head

[@paultassinari780]

what is a Greki?

[@dgale1023]

so what happens when the bosses are contacted

[@jetroar17]

They have a sexy party.

[@ikarlhd1]

dave just reports are made, tapes will be pulled for a superior to listen to then any action will be taken against the controller; more than likely a 'just keep your cool' chat, or further action if there's multiple reports against said controller

[@dgale1023]

Thanks for answering appreciate it

[@railotaku]

Also the Aer Lingus crew will have to report the reason for the delay on arrival - "Weather and Grumpy ATC" - European airlines will almost always back up their crew's decision in this situation.

[@jimknapp8731]

In situations like this I always wonder if there is a way for us to find out what happened after the "bosses" had their discussions.

[@gtoger]

What kind of radio does Aer Lingus use? It's not good.

[@VASAviation]

I'd say he has the mic too close to his mouth.

[@notafanboy250]

lol yeah. That Shamrock guy's voice is pretty horrible too.

[@stijnvandamme76]

irish mumbling

[@7667neko]

I don't find it being that bad... Maybe the subtitles help.

[@jennydiazvigneault5548]

Pilots have final say concerning aircraft safety. Period.

[@redraider2l7]

then dont accept the clearance to takeoff, knowing where youre heading. sheesh.

[@brentfoto]

STFU, Howard!

[@masflow09]

@@redraider2l7 weather changes in minutes dont you know that? PIC has the final say period.

[@redraider2l7]

@@masflow09 bless your heart.

[@masflow09]

@@redraider2l7 same

[@stephensantilli9690]

What is Greki? New to aviation and not really sure what this means.

[@VASAviation]

GREKI is a fix (an imaginary place where airplanes fly to) and is north-northeast of the Kennedy airport.

[@rubenvillanueva622]

Stephen Santilli GREKI, is a navigational fix (point), on the JFK SID, Standard Instrument Departure. If you Google it, type in KJFK CHARTS, you can look at all the SIDs and STAR (STANDARD ARRIVAL CHARTS).

[@GhostDrummer]

Are we just ignoring the whistling @ 1:12? Edit: 1:11 to 1:12

[@HamburgerExplosion]

Tune is The Entertainer (1902)

[@tiarnan76]

no - just ignoring you

[@GhostDrummer]

tiarnan but you replied

[@irishmal1]

Well done aer lingus. Fly the plane.

[@rubenvillanueva622]

Malachy Diamond And he did, 2, 360s and a 270, lots of fuel wasted at low level.

[@BOHICA_]

They were Cunni lingus on this day.

[@luanlorello3059]

I didn't understand why they did not follow the Route?

[@VASAviation]

Bad weather.

[@mamalillycat8756]

Since this was going to each others bosses, who was the one in the right? The ATC? the pilot? I would really like an update if possible.

[@TDPAviationAndGaming]

Both parties would be able to justify their positions, however (as a matter of opinion) I believe it was unprofessional of the controller to be so adversarial on frequency.

[@michaelwilliams9234]

Both were technically right. The PIC is responsible for the safety of his aircraft and can refuse a certain routing if he feels that it isn’t safe. However, ATC is responsible for the safety of the airspace and has the right to hold that aircraft so that it doesn’t conflict with traffic flying that route.

[@pro_lab9748]

Wanna see CA876 declare emergency in French yesterday