What Went Wrong With Dragonflight PvP? Venruki Reacts

Check out Skillcapped's video! • What went wrong with D...
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[@skillcappedwowpvp]

Thanks for the react! 💪

[@AlunethMaster]

Thanks for the small spotlight bless u both !

[@colocode6979]

dont have to thank when you pay for it. most contradicting wow streamer there is.

[@ElfinHilon10]

Cool to see the creator here. Funny enough, you mentioned Project Ascension, and as I was watching, I couldn't help but think this is the exact same issue that Ascension has when it comes to PvP, and then you mentioned it minutes later. I audibly gasped haha. Either way, I wholly agree. Good video.

[@megahaogie1784]

Dragonflight pvp totally killed my passion for wow, I resubbed this season got my heroic clear and thought alright let's see what pvp is like so I geared my main and my alt for pvp and can't even get 1800 I quit

[@IrOfLaTtHeMoOn]

I miss gear upgrades. For me personally I quit after 2-3 months due to the lack of progression. I miss the days where you could push higher rating and get rewarded by upgrading your gear. I used to help a few PvE bro's in PvP, teaching them the mindset and the flow of battle, my higher PvP ilvl would help keep me alive to assist/help them enjoy the game mode. They would get so excited each time we hit a new rating, upgrade that gear, test it out, enjoy the extra dps and survivability. Now you basically max your conquest each week and log off to play other games. Once you are max conquest there's nothing more to do. You beat the game, wait until next season.

[@itsbalang1659]

The comparison between micro CC and M+ is on point.

[@Valvax4500]

the cc and interrupt chains are so bad that after playing classic i realized that i was too afraid to cast due to the anxiety that retail gave me because i usually dont get to cast anything..

[@not_vern]

THIS!!!!

[@benjaminghazi787]

You might be 1400

[@not_vern]

@@benjaminghazi787 Even if he's only 1400 xp doesn't change the fact that the micro cc is awful game design. Classic actually showed that since you can compare the 2 now. Plus we want low xp people / new players in this game! I swear anyone who plays retail arena now is all 2k+ xp because the barrier to entry for new players is so high. It's not healthy and why numbers are dropping.

[@react6258]

With the way hero talents are looking, it may well be that the best place to pvp for the next few years will be Cataclysm and Mists of Pandaria Classic. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[@itsmichaelwave]

Man i can't wait for mop, they better do it right.

[@Avo7977]

What's wrong with Hero Talents - new player for 1 month

[@crewnecks7922]

​@@Avo7977they don't balance the game for PVP already. With MORE customization it will make PVP balance significantly worse

[@jaded-harper]

@@Avo7977 they are 90% designed with pve in mind. like everything in this game, they make changes focused around pve and it inadvertently disrupts things in pvp. the 1 poor dev (if they even exist) that works on pvp cannot compete with the sheer amount of pve changes/additions that are made. its prolly a 95-5 pve to pvp ratio in terms of the development time they put in. pvp will always be bad cause it will never be the focus of dev time since its a small minority of the total players.

[@AlunethMaster]

nice, not only skillcapped featured me in a clip, but also venruki was reacting to it, lol this is my lucky day

[@WoWDontu]

You made it!

[@savadorp9948]

Love your vids man!

[@jcvm8915]

gold

[@davidjackson5390]

​

[@KimBoKastekniv]

Man love seein you here :)

[@prestencederien]

Because botting is how 50% of the pvpers chose to play the game. And by that i mean like grip bots,interrupt bots, cc bots to full automated "just make a dh and let it queue forever" bots. Kill all addons for pvp and let only custom ui work. No scripts,no addons. Edit : kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioDFdI14YseWi5Y&ab_channel=Venruki this for some ppl that keep repeating that it's only external tools that are used to make bots work.

[@mythiccx7434]

It's definetly not 50% dog

[@carlosrevolledo291]

I left in s2 because of this. I suck at the game, but losing to idiots worse than me that have interrupt scripts or bots or whatever, people that whenever I press a button, before I even finished pressing it they already pressed the counter to it, those stupid weakauras telling people what to do and when to do stuff and all that bullshit. Its awful to play.

[@prestencederien]

@@mythiccx7434 you haven't been high enough in arena then,cause some times it's higher :D . Try to find a russian account that doesn't run interrupt, grip or cc scripts :D. I am 100% sure that honor level 20 account with 2.2k cr is legit bro. Edit: And let's not forget the one button rotation crowd,which still claim that automating your rotation is not botting.

[@WoWDontu]

@@prestencederien sounds like an EU issue then.

[@ricardolionheart4920]

Not sure about your numbers, but to disable all addons, scripts and macros for pvp, would be something rly nice. Lets see who really have the fast fingers =D

[@Kurnhelios]

I'd like to see them try a double dps only queue for 2v2

[@spindoggytheexplorer2915]

Every aspect of PvP is in shambles, and Blizz won’t lift a finger for more than sub par mmr adjustments and out of touch class tuning. Class tuning is too little too late despite feedback. MMR needs further tuning. No new BGs for 6yrs. Regular BGs and Epics are over run by Premade Communities. Every Epic BG is untuned as seasons progress leading to soloing bosses and 3 min zerge wins. The low level PvP brackets are overrun by scaled down level 70s with template stats that are wayy too strong, Twinks, and Premades. Sharding in Warmode needs adjustment. New content zones need 30% more players and Legacy Zones impacted by Chromie time need Sharding removed all together since you only see like 3 hostile players from lvl 1-70 and they’re not your lvl. Literally every area of PVP play is lacking the most basic of maintenance needs. They’ve thrown us in the trash, and with Hero Talents coming PvP is gonna be a 💩 show in TWW. Ven, I know arena is more your area of expertise but it would be great if you’d use your platform to call out all of these issues and ask some of the other PvP content creators to join in. We’re not going to see any changes otherwise, it’s been 6yrs. With TWW coming up they’re going to have too much on their plate to fix this stuff, this is kinda our window of opportunity. I’ve been working with some other people and a few Community Council Members on the WoW Forums to try to have this stuff addressed. If anyone cares about the health of PvP overall and wants to lend a hand the post is titled “PvP Issues Organized Megathread Plea for Aid to Community Council and Blizzard”..

[@a1pha_star]

“Out of touch class tuning” is spot in. 🎯

[@Rizzerio1]

this has been the case for forever in WoW but somehow people still cling on to hope that things will change. Everyone flocked to league of legends for a reason.

[@spindoggytheexplorer2915]

I think as soon as Blizz glances at the impact of Hero Talents on PvP, and start testing the New BG they’re making they’re gonna look around and realize the PvP kitchen is on fire. By that time it’ll be too late and all we’ll get is more of the same out of touch Class Tuning trying to pull together the mess these Hero Talents made. If they don’t get to work fixing all this now, I don’t think they ever will.

[@TotalRejection]

@@Rizzerio1 you are not wrong, but giving feedback still feels better than resigning

[@NUTGORE]

This comment needs to be pinned

[@spacejamzyt6461]

As a healer I was just not having fun sitting in CC every few seconds with 40% damp so I stopped playing pvp and moved in to mythic+ where it actually feels like you get to play and your heals feel powerful. When healers aren't having fun nobody is going to have fun.

[@paullowe8437]

100% blizz jerks all the dime a dozen dps players off!! swap the status quo ! make healing op as fuck and dps just awful!! overcome the healing!!

[@Rizzerio1]

it's the trinity system. When one role isn't having fun, nobody is having fun. Overwatch is the perfect example of role imbalance and how it perpetuates massive mmr disparities so that queues fill at a reasonable rate...poor role = nobody wants to play it = every flocks to the role with the best ability to win games and screws up queue times/mmr disparity badly.

[@invictus7736]

@@paullowe8437 that just leads to insanely boring dampening matches where nothing happens for 30 minutes because everyone is unkillable

[@edwardhatfield5360]

Healing being too strong while bliz said that "players need to die" and too durable healers lead us to healer EFCs because a dps might die in one CC. While healers are the most durable pvp specs you also got healer area deniers in BGs, and then to compensate, more MS specs, more arena dampening, higher burst from dps, more micro CC, more movement. The delicate balance that is pvp is pulled in a dozen different directions with every expantion to try to make ranged feel like they can effect a positive change in combat/objectives, and they do the same for melee, healers, and 2 tank specs. The armor nerf/buff they did and all the other tuning and spec reworks were to *try* to make most specs feel like there is opprotunities for feels good plays, but many players feel like a victim when any spec gets an upgrade in playstyle or effectiveness. Basically most people got things they wanted, but when most specs can do most things well, an individual player will fight many specs that can do most things well. For BGs, you may find yourself in a fairly even number per team in a battle, but everyone has long and short CC, lots of specs have knockbacks, slows, fears, MS effects getting put on almost everyone...the team that uses better or more CC prevents the enemy from controling their characters and they win. As the video mentioned, it is an arms race. The changes may have been in an effort to make things interesting/fun, but most people recognize it as complicated fluff.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

so true. m+ best mode in the game. blasting with big healing numbers no stupid cc damp mechanics only annoying affixes 😅

[@AnotherCrazyClown]

I advocate for letting players get Elite sets and Gladiator mounts from Previous expansions and seasons

[@cykaboi336]

people cant go pass 2100 because of boosters and the dead mmr ladder , this is out of touch

[@eloniewordan8890]

Agree give them just for playing no rating needed

[@kevinworley7096]

That would negate the purpose of earning them in the first place.

[@user-pe6ct7ut8t]

@@kevinworley7096 Agree, while it gives a motive for players to engage into PvP, it fully devalues the meaning of said title/achievement. same would apply for hero titles or CE achieves

[@mimklive]

fuck no

[@kkjjqrysdgadff7782]

Where to start. Homogenized classes. Mindnumbing ability stacking. Botting galore. Top tier PVPers ruining lower brackets for views and/or money.

[@NDM100]

I've played 3-4 healers each season of Dragonflight, and the micro CC META is absolutely miserable. I'd rather be stuck in a 15 sec CC chain from RMP, because me or my team could actually prevent that. Instead I peek the corner of a pillar, get hit with instant cast stun from DH, then a warrior leap fears me, then the DH fear, then the warrior stormbolt. It isn't fun to have no outplay potential. Everything is instant cast. To highlight this even further - warlocks barely cast fear anymore because it isn't rewarding when compared to their other options for that global. I yhink Fear, Clone, Poly should all be the most important spells for their respective classes and they just aren't anymore.

[@Infidel.]

Exactly but 1200 rats thought that casted CC was the problem. I'm glad that pvp in retail is dying. SOD is the only reason I'm subscribed.

[@brandonturner6099]

Arena needs to be its only “client” similar to how Plunderstorm is another game option

[@ricardolionheart4920]

This idea is nice too. No gear or whatsoever disparities, just pick the class.

[@brandonturner6099]

@@ricardolionheart4920 yep and the class has 4-5 core abilities and you select 4-5 utility and you have a maximum of 10 abilities and suddenly you have a game that is balanced and totally accessible to new players. And no addons, everything just has a very obvious visual effect

[@ricardolionheart4920]

@@brandonturner6099 We could only dream mate =)

[@elijahowings2033]

This is interesting! Never thought of this.

[@Kanoog]

@@brandonturner6099 EXACXTLY, shit, I returned form Wrath as a Glad player to DF which I had to get a 12 side button mouse, spent a shit load of time with add ons, 12 buttons with shift and Ctrl modifiers and still using Q,R,,F,G,Z,X,C,V, Tab, Caps, Shift, `, Game is STUPID high bloat, it's a pain in the ass and mashy.

[@DinoAndCrew]

I think Venruki's critically wrong on one thing, people don't just make alts because they can't find games. They make alts because they enjoy stomping players, if it were just because of the fact you couldn't find games you wouldn't see the same smurf bullshit in other communities, just look at overwatch and their "bronze to grandmaster" series. Playing solo shuffle and as a relatively unskilled player it feels incredibly demoralizing and makes me want to quit when I get absolutely shit-canned by one of these players. I'm sure others just outright quit, and then the PVP community is surprised that their game mode is dying.

[@DinoAndCrew]

Adding on to this, I honestly think they should split rewards from ranks, if you want to ego-push rating, fine. but by openining up reward tracks in a sim. way to plunderstorm you'd actually encourage us noobs to participate

[@williamlangley2505]

Dude your missing the point

[@SiopeR]

@@DinoAndCrew yeah they did it in FF with new free pvp "battle pass" that works like Renown. U get it slowly just by playing the mode.

[@BeefSalsaa]

Not many in the PvP community is surprised it's dying. We're disappointed Blizz wont try and fix it. Or at least give us some new games modes or maps. Playing the same maps/modes for 6 years gets old to anyone. especially when its unbalanced asf

[@icaanul]

This is true. Just look at some streamers that will do things like, "no addons challenge" while stomping through lower ranked players. They also do a 42-0 challenge where they dumped their rating so they could get a good 2/3 of those wins going against average players. It just demoralizes them. It's not good for pvp recruitment. For example, people in fps hate spawn campers or rats. They will split. It's like any game. If you make the experience suck, you will bleed players. Add in bots and things mentioned in this video, it's just not worth the headache for many.

[@Acaran]

I said this when they did the whole CC nerf and I will keep saying it and commenting it. The problem is not the amount of CC, the problem is that all the CC in the game right now is very easy to land and the CC that is hard to land is not rewarding enough. I will give some examples. For example in classic wow, to trap someone as a hunter, the trap has roughly 1.5 seconds arming time, it doesn't trigger instantly, so you have to use it as a follow up to some other cc or to outplay someone with good placement and predictions. You can also only use it out of combat so you have to commit feign death to use it every time. Finally, in classic its obviously a melee only ability. You have to go up to your trap target as a ranged class that gets fucked by deadzoning if you come close, to even have a chance to use the trap. And the trap is very rewarding it gives you 10-30 seconds of CC. If you are in a team fight, there are many ways you can counter this ability, for example, you can try to eat the trap (you have 1.5 seconds to do it) so the trapping team might have to commit another cc on you so you can't eat the trap. You can reflect the trap. Ground it. You can dispell the trap either with a potion, trinket on some classes, or just with a spammable dispell ability like cleanse or dispell magic, even as a dps spec. The trap can also resist. Now compare this to trap on retail. It's an instant cast ranged ability with 0 arming time usable at any point. With diamond ice its undispellable. Its very very hard to eat it, because of the instant arming time. There is 0 risk with the usage for the hunter, because it's fully ranged. You can't counter it with dispell if its on your healer. You can force dispell from the healer and then trap a dps and the healer can't dispell it, (unless they play double dispell). But, you can fade or death it, you can bubble it, trinket it, tranq it, emerald communion. There are ways to counter it. But you already see the complete difference in CC design. The trap went from being hard to land and easy to avoid while some responsibilty being on your teammates with eating the trap or dispelling it, while being very rewarding if you land it. To being almost a micro cc (If you play diamond trap) and being relatively easy to land. Trap is not a perfect example and it's not that bad in its terms, but this has happened with every single CC in the game, slowly switching responsibility from making a play to land the cc to making a play to ever avoid the CC. When you do this with every CC in the game, the game becomes cancer for the healers. I'll give another example. Blind-Sap. In Classic and tBC to sap a blind it is pretty difficult. #1 you have to commit vanish to do it. #2 the other team can stop you from doing so by using flare, or aoe around the target. It's not overly difficult to do, but it requires some skill and has some counterplay. Now compare blind sap there to blind sap in retail before the nerfs. #1 you have 2 charges of shadow dance that you will be using during your blind sap anyway because they are your burst windows. You no longer have to commit another cooldown to get the sap. #2 even if you had to commit vanish or get stealth in another way to land the sap, there is no counterplay. You have subterfuge. Even if someone uses a flare on the blinded target or gets you out of stealth with aoe, it doesn't matter, you can't stop the sap except with CC on the rogue. I could give more examples. Most longer CC now removes all dots from targets, which allows you to switch targets freely and avoid any planning with landing your sheeps, traps etc. I could go on and on but I think I made my point. Until CC is harder to land and the responsibility to avoid it is divided better among the team, healers are gonna hate the game and the only way to make the game playable from balance standpoint will be micro CC because making any CC meaningful would ruin the game.

[@kakaroot92]

Venruki, I totally agree that high rated players should not be punished or blamed for making alts, and I have no problem playing alts of high rated players. What are your thoughts on a system that takes into account the highest current mmr that a player has? If I lose to a bunch of r1s or mutliglads who are sitting at 2500-2700 but playing at 2100, I feel like I shouldn't be losing rating as if I was playing another duelist player. I'm not sure how exactly it would take it into account, but some level seems necessary.

[@fenristhor9204]

All the healers are in classic wow were healing is fun because you get to plan your heals with mana control and ranking/de-ranking spells, and you actually have to consider what stats you want to use depending on situation (Spirit/MP5/Healing bonus/Mana pool).

[@JS-skankhunt42]

Quick fix? Increase rating inflation across all brackets. Allow variations of gladiator mounts across all brackets not just 3s(maybe color). Just those 2 changes would entirely save pvp and bring tons of people back including myself. I tend to sometimes reach 2.4K ratings but season 3 I didn’t even bother playing since it was impossible to get the rewards.

[@Infidel.]

Will still be trash, the core pvp problems will remain.

[@user-rh2gn3ek6o]

Remove. The. Addons.

[@roo2127]

I watched it once it dropped. The sarcasm is/was amazing to watch. Very enjoyable but to the point.

[@brianyou2]

the worst part about wow is they are letting you using addons and zooming out pov until you make ur character a dot.

[@icaanul]

They stopped that a few expansions ago. If you can zoom out to be a dot these days, you must be playing on a gameboy.

[@xeikai]

I agree about healing as a life long healer myself. I walk into a bg and I can keep people up very easy. Hps with no dampening is insane. But dampening is just.trash. it feels awful to struggle so hard Fighting against this debuff. They need to find another answer for heals

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

Plunderstorm is my favorite PvP mode right now. Fast queues, rewards every level, no button bloat, not having to worry about a million different types of DR, no addons, no visual clutter, pretty balanced, etc etc. I'd be in favor of them making a PvP mode in the main game where you only have 5-7 core abilities and addons are disabled. For example: Fel Rush, Blade Dance, Demon Bite, Eye Beam, Meta, Vengeful Retreat, Darkness. Those are the only abilities DH get. Death grip, death strike, howling blast, obliterate, AMS, Frostwyrm Fury, Chains of Ice. That's all DK gets. "hurr but too simple, muh complexity!" look at CSGO, LoL, or any other serious PvP game and tell me how those games would benefit from having 40+ keybinds and a cluttered mess of a UI.

[@demolishweaklings]

WoW is an MMORPG. It is perfectly normal to have lots of spells. Playing with 6 spells in a MMO is the most boring thing I can imagine. Playing for years using 6 buttons is such a stupid idea please refrain from commenting such utter nonsense. Is it too crowded on some classes? Yes. Are all classes equal? no. There are simple and more complex classes, and there are simple and more complex champs in LoL.

[@crowwithknifecawcaw]

@@demolishweaklingsthey’re not wrong. I’ve had the same idea for years now. WoW’s pvp should strip you of all but the bare essential abilities that define your class. 1 mobility, 1 defensive, 1 gap closer, 1 interrupt, a 2-3 button rotation and an “ultimate” or signature ability (like blade storm, or explosive shot etc). I fully agree with you if we’re talking WoW gameplay in PvE, but man this video wouldn’t need to exist if things weren’t horrifically broken in PvP rn. It’s an ugly mess and not only pushes players away by being incredibly unfun, but puts some people off of playing entirely because if they want to play PvP primarily, but have to settle for -this- crap? They’ll just look elsewhere. It’s no mystery that WoW PvP isn’t just dying, it’s already dead lmao. The fact that addons are even allowed in PvP is insanity. You cannot name a single other competitive esport that allows such a wildly variable factor. Overwatch, LoL, Dota, Counter Strike, Fortnite, apex. They all place players in a neutral and fair position. This shit is so cracked and beyond fixing it needs to be completely destroyed and rebuilt as something newer and better. No sane human can keep track of 150+ abilities and buffs/rebuffs across 13 classes in the heat of battle and it’s at a point now where if you DONT have all these idiotic bots and automated helpers, you will get absolutely demolished in seconds. Instead, if blizz turned the WoW classes and specs into simplified, almost MOBA-like versions of themselves with

[@demolishweaklings]

@@crowwithknifecawcaw This is where you are wrong as well: you compare WoW pvp to esports like CS and LoL. WoW is an MMORPG, it can never be like those. MMORPGs have a lot of variables and can never have that "neutral" ground. WoW is not an esport either. Even in Dota or LoL you have tons of variables that are not balanced, hence why they balance patch every 2 weeks. I play both LoL and Dota for more than 10 years. MMORPG PvP is fun especially because of variety and fun nonsense. WoW classic PvP is amazing not because it's balanced, but because it's open world and you find every little advantage to dominate your enemy (engineering, weird trinkets, westfall sleep dust, root tubers etc. I enjoy a plethora of abilities in PvP, not PvE. I don't enjoy PvE at all actually. Some class prunning would be warranted, for example I think DH and reworked Ret are in a very good spot for button bloat. Horrific cases would be enh shaman. Spell variety is extremely important in a RPG game, which WoW is first, remember that. You can't run around with 8 spells playing a char for years. Hell, I know people that play the same char for 15 damn years!

[@DankMemes-xq2xm]

@@demolishweaklings GW2 manages to have good PvP and far fewer buttons per class.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

@@demolishweaklingsthen enjoy how pvp dies 😊. plunderstorm like is the future pvp mode. pve players hated it but everyone played it

[@vinaryn6064]

Hi Ven thanks for you insights into PvP, I dabble in PvP with friends and as such I as a M+ and raider do like to cheese trinkets early with conquest Trinkets as I can guarantee when I get them and not pray for a good drop from the PVE side. The only thing I don't like as much about the PvP trinkets is why does the on use stat trinket switch stats at higher level... I mean I think I know why which is also a issue I see in PvP it's crit and crit is terrible in PvP even for the 2 specs I play DH and FDK crit loving specs and crits often do the same damage as normal hits which also feels odd in most cases.

[@samkearon4341]

Need a series taking a m+er like a healer that needs frames and work with them to create their PVP UI / binding changes and get them into PVP, show us the way! Would be great content.

[@kimithr]

Amazing how it listed every single one of the problems I struggled with every time I try retail pvp, good to know I'm not the problem.

[@shadusx]

Part 1: People ask for less button bloat, then there is less skill expression. They give more skill expression with buttons, people say it's too complicated. Every single expansion the devs have to flip-flop this Lose-lose situation... A major issue in my opinion is that healers in arena don't actually have to cast spells anymore. I know this isn't what healer mains want to hear, because it's already annoying to heal, but it's still a large problem that compounds issues. I watched Cdew play for 3 straight weeks on his shaman and only finish casting 4 healing spells TOTAL. Every ability is instant, and you can fake cast every single ability and still keep everyone alive, all game, through the use of 15 cds. If you cant kick someone who's "healing", they don't have to worry about interrupts and can spend all of their time dodging cc. If they can dodge all cc, the only legitimate strategy left for dps is to just ramp up the aoe dps parses to force mistakes through spread pressure. Part 2: Half of the arena ladder is rank 1 alts. Lock in your r1 seasonal title, reroll an alt. Imagine trying to heal near the 2k bracket and for the next 50 games it's a blizzcon healer on an alt; you wont win. Petkick has 5 rank 1 dks, and is also rank 1 in solo shuffle on all of them. Too few elite individuals are sucking up pristine rewards on alts. Maybe they should expand title ranges to accounts instead of characters? It may seem like 250 players get the r1 title every season (being the top .1% numerically), but in reality it's only 50 people, the rest are their alts. The incentives are illusory. Part 3: Fix mmr and queue times.

[@Zetherior]

Black market containers as a 1% chance from healer boxes at the end of ranked pvp would be dope.

[@waz6438]

My biggest problem with the game is that I can't choose both pve and pvp rewards in vault. It's like the game tells me that I can only play one aspect of the game to the fullest at once. and it also stand for embellishments. You need different gear and embellishments for pvp and pve.

[@nerdfury6007]

PvP feels absolutely terrible for several expansions because there is this huge dependency on addons.. and because there are so many modifiers and such. It's just a terrible experience.

[@Belver97]

i've been saying it for quite some time, pvp in df feels like m+, it started in bfa/shadowlands, i miss legion

[@Kalyzery]

21:30 I have tried raiding in 5 expansion again and again. I really gave it more than a fair shot, and I'd rather drink hot cooking oil than go raiding for weeks till I get this 1 Bis item from raid for my class.

[@deenman23]

this is so weird,i literaly got bis heroic gear in 2 weeks,and a few m+ to fill out the set pieces,its so easy to get gear in DF,i actualy dislike it,i enjoyed wod way more,just raiding and hoping it drops

[@Cashinn_Outt1754]

Don’t forget once you get that BiS item you’ll enjoy it for a week before it’s worse than green quest rewards next patch and then no one even wants to run the content anymore when it’s your time to shine you can’t even enjoy the power spike

[@deenman23]

@@Cashinn_Outt1754 you enjoy the power for months lol,and as expansion goes on you just get stronger,with only amidrassil hc gear you feel like a god in outdoor content now as its stronger than season 1 mythic

[@boostly654]

just like the lvl or number squish we need another ability and class pruning to start adding back to.

[@BarrettRTS]

For the "feeling of progression" for high-end players, I wonder if they should experiment with automated tournaments. These existed back in Warcraft 3 and I remember enjoying them back in the day. Maybe having the feeling of actually winning a bracket would be more appealing than fruitlessly attempting to grind MMR against other top players or smurf repeatedly.

[@Reyo1517]

I started pvp in bfa and remember farming that two handed axe with the bleed effect because it was bis in pvp

[@daliuspaulauskas9184]

It was fun at the beginning of the season, when one famous paladin ( elite :) had a 9 - 32 win ratio in 2 Vs 2. Good season!

[@geraldbolum9422]

One improvement that would help, is to put solo queue back to what it was during shadowlands, when it came out

[@critshowcritner9103]

cool suggestions maybe we see them next April 1st

[@flamingjob2]

Lmao died at the demon hunter 😂 description. True story of how a caster like warlock sees a dh fistweaver etc

[@LouisGuidetti]

Thanks again for making this type of video

[@christmasham4312]

thank you ! for saying that about outlaw i agree 100% i do have the most fun playing outlaw but yes omg i miss old outlaw. also i love PS i can't get enough

[@simonbartha6934]

They should make a totally different talent tree for pvp with different setups and spells. Which you can try out in like a pvp lobby thing like in guild wars.

[@arcadialive4265]

It’s not fun because everyone has similar defensives. Gets and goes feel homogenized. Talent trees give everyone access to defensive choices. In classic we had to give up something offensive to go more defensive. That trade off made talents more fun for PVP.

[@kylegray1060]

I remember having two hpala specs because one was more defensive and the other was for more output because I couldn't have both and if you queued with the wrong one it was a hard win or just straight up loss. Tool kits are now tool stores where everything is available

[@user-pe6ct7ut8t]

Fun for whom is the question. Classic PvP is 100% telegraphed. Classic PvP had the worst balance of all, in fact, it actually had no balance at all. Most classes didn't even have options in their talents in terms of defensives or offensives. Just because there is a talent tree doesn't actually mean you have a choice.

[@Kanoog]

@@user-pe6ct7ut8t According to your logic the game now is balanced, there is still a massive issue in DF. Some classes are unplayable while others rain supreme as Flavor of the Month.

[@user-pe6ct7ut8t]

@@Kanoog Game will never be "balanced" in way to make everything viable. It's not possible in an asymetrical system with hundreds, if not thousands of variables. There will always be an optimal meta of some sort as even in later expansions, some classes have clear counters. Difference being, they're more likely to come out on top than ever. But I am sure you could balance all classes to be viable, when even a dev team of hundreds can't get close. Look at any other competetive game with variables and tell me it's perfectly balanced. Not even CSGO or SC2 are 100% balanced. The goal isn' to achieve perfect balance, but to limit classes in a way that nothing is so strong that it's a must play. Sadly, due to how many arbitrary systems WoW always has, this is never the case

[@marcopium9025]

Wow thanks for your in depth opinions

[@Cigma3]

Can we talk about how dampening is a terribly unfun experience for healers? Being rewarded for keeping your team alive by slowly watching if you or the opposite healer will suffocate first is not the best way to incentivize healing.

[@barty1995]

Imagine if the longer a match went on DPS did less damage, getting weaker and weaker... yeah, it would feel incredibly shitty wouldn't it? I genuinely have had loads of fun in BG Blitz as a healer but arena makes me want to eat a bullet.

[@zwabTheRealOne]

@@barty1995 The difference there is that in the DPS scenario, the match would never end. In the healer dampening scenario, the whole point is to force the game to end so that it doesn't devolve into a 15 minute slugfest. There are some healer specs that would arguably never go OOM if it weren't for dampening's existence, enabling them to keep their team alive perpetually. Is healer dampening in solo shuffle and 2s a bit too aggressive? There's an argument that can be made there yes. But if you remove dampening, you have to buff the bust DPS capability of every DPS spec in the game. Would it need to be as ridiculous as s1 Shadowlands burst? I'd hope not.

[@jesseharju]

Dont forget that healers "job" is also to do ridicilous amount of dmg

[@Infidel.]

​@zwabTheRealOne dampening exists because blizzard does not care about PvP and its literally that simple.

[@drummerguy438]

Honestly, I love the idea of specific talent trees for pvp. Fully redesigned or pared down kits, focused on pvp, only for pvp. They would have to have a team specifically doing pvp balancing, but I don't think removing options game modes will help anything.

[@kaiserstritz136]

We had that before and pvp players were crying. They always cry no matter what

[@drummerguy438]

@@kaiserstritz136 Im not talking about the pick from 3 options trees we had in mop and on. I'm talking about A full talent set but specific to pvp. Like what we have now, but the tree only exists in pvp.

[@kaiserstritz136]

@@drummerguy438 but whatever blizzard does, pvp players are the most cry babies in this game. That's why removing pvp as a whole would be much better. Pvp will never be popular like it was, most people dislike pvp or just don't care

[@dustinfidalgo915]

I honestly have to say i admire your drive and sticking with the topic that retail PvP needs help. One day we will see the light and you will be the reason. Adding to my comment. I think when entering PvP. Classes should have a separate talent tree where abilities are limited. Maybe even a different tree all together. Giving PvP its own identity completely. The game has evolved so much that one talent tree can no longer fit all aspects of the game.

[@carlossimon8993]

Here’s an idea to fix pvp. Change the pvp template. And what I mean by that is maybe prune the abilities on the action bar every time you enter pvp activity or zone on world map. Make it so there’s no more than 15 or so relevant abilities for pvp. Also remove addons and overhaul the PvP ui to compensate. All of this will simplify the game and attract more players. And to bring old players back maybe add vendors that give PvP blues, for the current season, for free! Then progress normally from there based on rating, adding better gear from higher rating and all that. Treat every season like an arena tournament server. This will remove the unnecessary grind so that everyone at anytime can hop back into pvp.

[@iknow3335]

Micro CC (cannot control character) and Weak aura tracking had me. These are the reason I dun even want to step in and learn PVP. (I play since 2005)

[@ihavealife002]

Will priest finally get a button for mobility?

[@bubba01z]

foxyllamas rating hasnt moved because of other reasons. he misses or doesnt press his spirit link totem

[@FernandoMartinez-zh6jz]

I wanted to check PvP for season 4, give it another try. Haven't played solo shuffle cause I heard que times were a mess and that it was really hard to get the rewards so I got interested and ended up not participating because of this. I started to check some guide for my class. It opened talking about omnibar, then omni CD and omni CC. Then sArena, then something like nameplatebuff? As the guy showed a few matches of which I understood pretty much nothing of it... And got discouraged again... I had tried to get into PvP during BfA but the gearing was a mess and I didn't understand it at the time. I left during Shadowlands, everything kinda sucked then. I remember having fun with Battlegrounds during my WotLK time... I honestly would like something like FFXIV mixed with maybe hero talents sort of thing for PvP. Turn the PvP talent system into something like a hero talent tree that modifies skills or add things but giving us a base kit like they do in FFXIV.

[@enzoshink7597]

I would love to see a test where there is no addons and the only q avaliable is soloq. No unfair advantage and faster qs

[@josephdickson8176]

this is a great video that really highlights how different retail has become from the original design of WOW pvp. watch high-level WOTLK classic arena and it looks like a completely different game. watching RMP vs thunder cleave, the two comps play entirely differently, positioning and coordination make or break a setup, etc. those core elements are largely absent from retail nowadays and the game is worse for it

[@DethrowDestruction]

When he used Frost mage as an example, I was like nah I love frost rn too haha

[@Arntor-kf9hi]

Used to PvP back in the ancient times but a hardcore pve player now and M+ is 85% the reason PvP is the way it is with raids being another 10%. M+ is wildly popular as you can see and when you’re doing higher M+ he’s not exaggerating by saying you absolutely must use defensive to survive quite often. Mechanics like these have led to increased health pools, better defensive and shorter cooldowns. Also the way M+ is played leads to class design being the way it is. You need to be able to cleave on as many targets as possible while also being able to put up solid single target numbers. Then lastly classes need ways to deal with interactive affixes which have become more popular lately so more classes need more CC and more dispels. I haven’t personally done it but I’d bet all my gold that if you look at the meta M+ specs they’d also be the meta arena specs.

[@kbob9625]

The IE analogy is hilarious.

[@Sio91pmw]

The way PvP is right now i feel like solo BG fitting the best

[@Rizzerio1]

solo bg's where half your team rage afk's after losing the first team fight....classic bg experience.

[@Sio91pmw]

@@Rizzerio1 I’ve seen that but a rated game with a deserter debuff along with rating earned and lost would probably help.

[@Gentche]

The thing with m+ is that most people dont even want the cc requirement its just annoying. I also used to love pvp but now its just annoying, wich wouldnt change for me unless every class would stop being able to do everything

[@121WoWfreak]

actually had a que pop for solo shuffle 4 mins into the video :p

[@SmilingAbyssinianCat-dl9dl]

Ill share my experience just incase. I played Dragonflight last year for 3 months and tried pvp arena it was soo boring and hard after 1 solo shuffle i played league match on my phone and had so much fun. As a casual player there was 0 communication between my teammates and i just felt like chasing training dummy for 30minutes one thing i suggest is that they should create a 1vs1 mode with no healer tank stuff

[@LTZXD]

there forsure is a issue tho with high rated players playing so many alts. they take up more of the r1 spots. look at wotlk 41 spots. some of the spots are 1 person on 3 chars.

[@aic20]

I'd like to thank Ven for being a voice for the PvP community for well over a decade now. I respect the passion and honestly we just want to be heard and to hear some communication. If pvp isn't something theyre interested in reviving then they just need to come out and say that and stop wasting everyones time.

[@SmartMarkSterling]

I don’t know if this is a hot take…but I would play more if there wasn’t such a risk of losing so much rating making a mistake. I understand gaining rating when you win…but can we not lose rating when we lose?

[@onlyhuman3281]

Time Q's and Gear Incentive MUST CHANGE!! pnts will follow suit if the first to issues are addressed, CC and Instant cast speed tech is the new norm and will continue to dominate class and ability/spell changers or updates yet once any power lvl is attained the time limit or its life limit is only available until it becomes Nerfed!! Is this to all ways be expected? Imo i can see this being a huge problem and challenge for any design team.

[@duckspinach]

PVP needs to be massively simplified if Blizzard ever has a chance of bringing in new players. That means every class needs a rework for pvp -- that's just too much work.

[@AD690smcr]

Its true specs are getting way to complicated. I love how the specs have got reworks this xpac, but bloody hell i feel like some specs you need a rotation helper. Bring back the days when all i needed was a dot timer for all my feral bleeds. I still had as much fun in the game back then.

[@davidc750]

It is MMORPG after all, and at the end of the day rated PVP is a minor content by game's nature. Since singular class design ethos has to fit multiple play style of many different contents, Blizzard cannot help but to put more resources towards ones that have more player base.

[@Rizzerio1]

which is why mmo's are dying because they can retain an audience with a worse version of one that is optimized around content someone specifically wants. There's no denying that League of Legends killed WoW PvP.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

@@Rizzerio1they released sub numbers and we are at 7mio. trust me wow isnt dying, pvp is

[@Rizzerio1]

@@ic3t3ap3ach and easily cut out 20% of those numbers from bots/hackers.

[@kaiserstritz136]

@@Rizzerio1 Majority of wow players are mostly pve so we just dont care about pvp. They could remove it and many wouldnt care at all

[@ransaktehelder4260]

Dark Age of Camelot and Everquest were two big MMO's that were going on for years before WoW and those players fed heavily into building WoW's original player base. They came from games where the PvP had a goal of either defending the realm's castles and relics or securing the kill on a boss for your guild. It added depth to the PvP past digital currencies and achievements. When we all came to WoW we hoped this idea would continue but instead we got bottled pvp fights with no real connection to the greater world and were pretty disappointed and wrote off the PvP in this game. Blizzard has tried to make it work a few times but still fell short in recreating the magic of what made MMO PvP so fun that it made MMO's a genre back in the day... and this is the avenue they should look at to fixing it for more people to participate. Arena is just too sweaty with or without adds for the majority of people.

[@maruhto3508]

I agree with most points they bring up. As someone who plays pvp on and off and never got far above gladiator ranking, my enthusiasm of hopping back into solo shuffle is almost always instantly dampened by the eternal queue times and complicated classes. Imagine not playing half a season or an entire season, then you jump back in, suddenly some classes are the meta again which havent been before, and youre greeted by nonstop micro cc...the biggest frustration about that is if you dont even know its coming...and you keep thinking "ok NOW they dont have anything! I can cast..." *zap* micro cced... "but NOW they cant possibly have anything else, can they?"...*zap* The amount of effort it would take to know and track all the micro cc is just too much for an on- and off pvper. I am, however, against the idea of reducing the mappool, and I also dont want seperate talent trees for pve and pvp. Since I play both, I want my class to feel like my class with the same hotbars and talents, not something completely different. What theyre kind of suggesting here is FFXIV pvp, which has maybe like 10 buttons per class that sometimes dont exist in pve. The buttons try to keep the class identity and feel iconic, but it still feels like a different game and I personally dont want that. what I did in DF s2 and 3 was getting the elite set on 3-4 classes which takes like a couple of hours if youre a healer, and then never go back again.

[@vraxialidv9362]

Played since Wrath only gave pvp a try in DF s3 because I really wanted the 1800 priest set, also never played healer before.. the grind was unbearable, addons etc yea got the 1800 n was more pleased to not need to do pvp anymore than getting the set

[@jn3820]

Why is the volume so damn low? Is this your first day?

[@gtak1439]

I am getting older and cant keep up with all weakauras addons and all the other bs. I am 52 still love pvp but getting harder to keep up. What are your ages ? and anyone having same issues?

[@user-zd3re1gc4k]

Really depends on the class/spec you play. I main ret and have for a long time and alt solo shuffle on other classes. I usually get to 1800 easily on alts without any WA. Just have a pvp UI setup via Edit Mode, Bigdebuffs, the Hellikili rotation helper for my alts so I can just look straight at the center of my screen and the battle and know what needs to be done (because defensives are the same keybinds on every class I play as are my interupts/cc). If you play a caster, get the interrupt bar addon as well to juke. That's it. Aside from those two addons the rest of PvP is literally just like anything else in WoW, the more you play the more you learn and get the feel for it in that specific scenario!

[@fatlittlepaypig]

funny how im playing d4 and that also suffers from the balance of power creep and one shots vs survivability

[@a_pizza_is_fine]

My favorite video yet, 100% spot on.

[@AkiRa22084]

I had all of these years ago.

[@WoWDontu]

I like the BMAH containers idea.

[@ic3t3ap3ach]

😂 yes they do it a container worth 500k gold. you know what pvp has the best rewards in all modes and all pvp rewards are time exclusive.

[@WoWDontu]

@@ic3t3ap3ach 😂 I’ve gotten a shirt out a box so hardly.

[@Tacticool_Mutton_Chops]

And this is why I've gone back to classic. I'm not going to say WotLK/Cata didn't have it's problems, but at least classes felt unique. I tried to get into Dragonflight but healing arenas as an r-druid main with all the ability bloat just wasn't fun.

[@Damingo54]

Needs a great pruning. Sadly a lot of people would scream and cry like last time

[@placeholdername3206]

I actually like when you can weave in a PvE ring or two from raiding/mythic+ that has slightly better stats. Not overly good stuff, like weapons or crazy trinkets. Just something to be excited about. In my opinion PvP is rather stale and less interesting when people always are mirror images of each other

[@Intelligenkeit]

i dont understand why he said they lose their identity for game balance, theres no balance, you make the game way more unbalanced if everybody has a stun, now you cant even control your character anymore, just go into a BG and try to move, its impossible, you get 5 different CCs before you can even press your buttons, real balance comes if one class can root, one class can stun and one class has fear, if everybody gets all the CC the game becomes unplayable and unbalanced, which is the problem right now

[@Infidel.]

It's common sense but blizzard does not care about PvP. Adjusting damage of classes does not fix the game. The core design of classes needs to be fixed, separating PvP from a PvE.

[@icaanul]

What is said about losing identity to game balance is true. The balance in this case is M+. Just like he said. If you watched it. Because of M+, they have given everyone so many tools so they can be viable in M+, and balanced, that it has stripped class identity across the board. Not everyone needs a stun, an incap/disorient, a root, a snare, double or triple charged gap closers, and etc. But here we are all because the M+ crowd needs it. So yes, the attempt to balance has stripped away identity.

[@steven301]

im 30 know a 2k player and its hard for me to get this, this game what i love sinces classic is going so crazy.... it stressed me out. maybe i go cata...

[@redrogue2715]

The fact there are classes that can be botted well. Shows how badly things need to be fixed.

[@dovahsween3378]

I’ve been a big team member on the side of timers being so bad for game health. I don’t think anything positive comes from having a system built with timers as a core mechanic.

[@Indianaownz]

what if the classes have set pvp abilities like ffxiv

[@officialtog]

I agree that healers are op. I play my druid (way over geared) in random battle grounds for fun. It takes 5-6 people (minimum) focusing me to kill me. I duo q with my warrior friend and we literally just faceroll the whole bg,

[@GodlyNoodle]

People like solo shuffle because its more accessible, its obviously less complex because you cant control your comp and coordinate over coms. It also completely blocks boosters

[@Stamaxim]

RBGS are less active because there is still really only 1 main tank. so you spend 40min looking for tanks to que 1 game and have people leave if its a win or a loss. Id also like to say that DPS keeps getting easier, especially with weak aura's etc (just look at Ven's outlaw rogue video that increased his rogue dmg by ~100%), and there for healing keeps becoming harder. As a healer main i literally have people tell me i must be a masochistic. As always thanks for the video and reaction Ven! I dont blame the streamers for playing alts, but it is ruff trying to teach someone 3's to get more people interested and then getting stomped and doing a checkpvp on the team to find out its r1's. Of course if your going 50/50 at 1800 and playing r1's you just gotta keep getting the ques in because your already playing for Glad.

[@officialtog]

damn, 100,000 ish hrs of Mythic plus ran every day is crazy.

[@Atakan198X]

Yes, the other half of the footage is from the other PVPer

[@roflcopturz]

IMO, I believe the issue is two-fold. The talent tree redesign was a fundamental misstep and will inevitably lead to massive issues in every aspect of the game relating to ability bloat, balancing and spec homogeneity. One of the given reasons for the redesign in the first place was to give new / leveling players something tangible every time they leveled up, and that now results in 35+ things that need to be stuck in the class and spec trees, meaning what used balanced by being on the same talent row are now available together because they are spaced out. Couple this with blizzard's continual inability (whether based on time limits and deadlines or genuine inability to do basic math) to prevent some specs from being multiple times as effective as other specs, and the almost grudge based attention span they give to some specs over others, and it's a disaster waiting to happen. The other part is Blizzard's absolute REFUSAL to improve the default UI in such a way that you can easily and compactly view information that you need (personal need, spec need, etc) without having to use addons like weakauras, omnicd, DR trackers, etc. It took Blizzard almost 19 years to do a "full" UI overhaul and in some cases you LOST functionality. You see this in PvE constantly, with how some encounters are difficult solely because you simply cannot see information clearly. These problems combine into a cocktail that makes PvP an actual nightmare for a majority of players.

[@keats27]

Number of abilities could definitely be paired back on a few classes. But I really think the main barrier to entry is 476 when you're fighting 489, and I think the pve ilvls 415/450 or so are a joke compared to pve, but need to be on par with them....not better...not even the same, but at least close so that we don't feel like 2nd class citizens in M+ and LFR.

[@dk-zh4nc]

Plunder style arena and bgs would probably be the only way I ever pvp again. No grind, no addons and no gear. just press play and actually play the game with my limited free time. Maybe even no rating systems just play for fun

[@icaanul]

There are probably other games like what you want instead of trying to turn an iconic game into something it never was and should never be.

[@AnotherCrazyClown]

The thing about micro cc is since the introduction of Precognition there's no point in trying to kick as often as now, that's why everybody prefers first to micro cc and let the caster waste time trying to fake cast and then use the kicks when the caster is low and/or trying to kite because he has waste 3-4 seconds already trying to get a proc all while tanking damage

[@edwardhatfield5360]

Also lots of rotational dps abilities kick and counts as a kick. So you attack a caster and give them a free precog cuz you wanted to do damage.

[@AnotherCrazyClown]

@@edwardhatfield5360 eh kinda, i know that some casters can get precog from reflects, like using counterspell against a warr reflect or warlock reflect pvp talent to give himself precog but it doesn't happen that often, i think previous s1 but specially s2 was terrible, anyone could die if the caster had precog cuz of the 15% haste

[@edwardhatfield5360]

@@AnotherCrazyClown alright, that is another two I didnt even know about. Would love if CC volume was reduced to validate just removing Precog.

[@AnotherCrazyClown]

i would prefer to just remove precog but also just nerf everyone's dmg, there was no point in bfa to micro cc because no one is going to die in micro cc but now there's so much dmg spikes that micro cc'ing became the correct way to kill

[@xarbinchaoticneutral1785]

Shadowlands was when I quit pvping after getting duelist/gladiator in nearly every expansion. As a disc main all I did to get gladiator in shadowlands was use two buttons PI and Barrier with RMP. There's too much burst, too much CC, and the playerbase is more toxic than it's ever been with Solo Shuffle. It's less fun to play than it's ever been. Especially as a caster. I doubt I could break even 1750 if I picked it back up and then I would get bullied for "buying" my gladiators for not playing like a 2800 meganerd 24/7 365

[@Ganon999]

If you need 20 add-ons for pvp, there's too much bloat. Knowing each class and their abilities is one thing but the insane amount of things on the screen scares people away. Instead of just knowing to track a few of your opponents CDs it's just sensory overload at this point. If this is the barrier for entry for pvp then there needs to be a class overhaul which I assume won't happen, at least for a long time.

[@shiftone242]

What went right?

[@JC-uy9hs]

I honestly don't even know why i watch this content still. I haven't played since the last season in legion. That expansion was fun. I pvped, i raided, i did mythic plus, i world pvped, i did area and rbgs.

[@JC-uy9hs]

And I reached okay spots in each aspect of the game I was satisfied. I think I was most satisfied with mop design I did everything in that expansion too but the PVP on the wall was so good. Id regularly make groups and go kill the other factions pvp vendors and start drama on the wall.

[@JC-uy9hs]

Some of my most memorable moments were huge like 40 man brawls on that wall, and chasing people down and pvping at all the world daily quest spots.

[@JC-uy9hs]

I absolutely hated wod I was so alone in my Garrison

[@yuchuuba-naritai3466]

The UI addon bloat is crazy. Sad to see the state of PvP. It felt good in Cata. Then I played shadowmans for a month, and was eating dirt in the arena. FFXIV raid design doesn't revolve around all classes being able to whitstand one-shots, only tanks need to survive tankbusters. Now I get why PvP is in death spiral.

[@X_Mayce]

when wow finally realizes to do it like guild wars2 and completly seperate PvP and PvE, specifically gear and spells therefore balance it suddenly should start to feel much better and more well rounded for PvP too, but oh well