🍸 Vesper Martini / Cocchi Americano or Lillet Blanc - Winner?

[@cocktailpost]

Big round of applauses for all of you guys, very useful video. Thanks a lot. In the name of all of us who couldn't get Lillet and/or Cocchi! but please guys, stop grabbing the glasses by the rim. Stemmed glasses have stems for a reason. Thank you very much, and keep doing the right work!

[@dp4788_actual]

Took your advice and used the cochi... but used Tanqueray Rangpur instead. Try it. Thank me later.

[@RolandsSh]

Out of the somewhat exotic ones - Clavis Riga. Awesome drink if you can get your hands on Riga Black Balsam. Ingredients: 10ml rhubarb liquor 20ml Riga Black Balsam 55ml apple juice 5ml chocolate syrup 5ml pomegranate syrup orange peel Stir all the ingredients in the mixing glass, strain in coupe glass and spray the oils from orange peels over the drink. Usually I add a little bit less of the syrups and more of apple juice (3ml of syrups and 60ml of apple juice), but that's just my preference. While it sounds like it might be overly complicated with a lot going on at once, it somehow works. First thing you taste is the bitter herbs from balsam which transitions nicely into fruity notes from rhubarb and apple juice. Then in the aftertaste you get chocolate and orange.

[@cmcocktails]

never even heard of riga black balsam and I've never seen a rhubarb liqueur (but I can imagine the creation of one) :)

[@RolandsSh]

I'm surprised that you've never seen rhubarb liqueur. Don't you have De Kuyper or Wenneker over there in USA? It's a neat way to bring acidity to your cocktails if you want to change things up or simply run out of fresh citrus and don't feel like going to the shop. As for Riga Black Balsam - yeah, I'm not surprised at all that you've never heard of it before, it's extremely region specific to Latvia. It's quite viscous herbal balsam with 45% ABV, a distinct taste and it comes in a really nice clay bottles. It's very popular as souvenirs as well. We generally drink it as a digestif, pour over ice cream (a few years ago an ice cream with RBB was introduced as well, and it's awesome), add it to hot tea as a remedy against cold, mix it with heated cranberry/blackcurrant/cherry juice as an alternative to mulled wine, but it's also gaining popularity in cocktails. The most common recipes can be found here: rigablackcocktails.com/en/ Personally I like Clavis Riga, Black Honey Money and Hot Blackcurrant the most. On its own it's a love it or hate it drink, but I think it might be right up your alley considering your love for bitters. According to homepage, it is exported to USA as well. If you're willing to try it, I found this link: www.wine-searcher.com/find/riga+black+balsam

[@justmutantjed]

That's nifty, RolandsSh. I just googled rhubarb liqueur for grins. Most hits come up for a brand called "RHUBY" or pinterest recipes to make your own... And down the rabbit hole I go! :P Thanks for the idea!

[@BulletESV]

i love the tiny shards of ice in a shaken cocktail

[@AnthonySforza]

What's funny is that instead of asking for a "Vesper" I just run down the ingredients... as I usually have to do that anyhow. Though sometimes people will surprise you. I was in a campus bar at OSU in Columbus, OH and once I got through the ingredients, the bartender responded "That sounds a lot like it's going to be a Vesper." Pure elation. Although, so many places DON'T carry Lillet. Or something like Campari.

[@cmcocktails]

yeah, you'll have better luck with campari than Lillet though, that is so niche. I've also found some places that don't even have ginger beer :)

[@AnthonySforza]

Seriously? Haha, I haven't really ordered ginger beer before but now I'm curious. Sometimes I like to just hang out with something like a Campari and tonic... only to be told that they don't carry Campari. There's even lounges in Vegas that don't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to sound snooty, I'm just surprised. The company has enough money to own Ferrari, but hardly anyone carries it, never quite figured that one out. Lillet though, yea, much less people carry that one. I tried the Vesper with vermouth once just to see if it could be done. Not really. I thought that if it could be done, then I could actually have them in the places where I'm told there's no Lillet, but the whole mouth feel was off and it came out kind of like a sour off color.

[@chitoryu12]

I always look at the list of cocktails on the menu and give the bar a glance before asking for anything. Some bars won't stock much more than what's in the cocktails on the menu, so seek out a craft cocktail bar with a huge menu and you're likely to find what you need for any custom request. At The 18th Room in Manhattan, I asked the bartender to help with a Vesper but they had no quinine-laced aromatized wine at all. He even sent a waiter to the storage room just to make sure that they didn't have one hiding in the back.

[@ch0224a]

This will make an interesting follow up video if you are up to it. Try making the vesper using three different gin keeping one of them a London dry gin, like Gordon's or Beefeater and see your reaction to each version. Someone confirmed the other day that the choice of gin is the single most important ingredient in a Vesper. I used Beefeater gin when I introduced him to it and later he tried it on a cruise using a different gin, probably not as good. The result is it tasted like two entirely different concoctions. He loved the vesper using Beefeater gin and hated whatever gin was used on the cruise. Secondly, in an informal taste test using Beefeater gin and Absolut vodka as control, men generally prefer the vesper with the Cocchi Americano and ladies prefer the vesper with the Lillet Blanc. I think Fleming's choice of Gordon's gin is probably questionable, given its price point compared to Beefeater gin, but Fleming was right to insist on using a London dry gin.

[@cmcocktails]

Sorta like this? kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2iQY2Rjp9F8d8k

[@ch0224a]

Okay, you have got the deconstruction, but now try taste testing it between men and women and see which gender prefers which recipe. I suspect you may get two different results. Also forget Gordon's gin, it is not a real premium London dry gin. Anyway it is good as one might think from what I have heard.

[@SnifterRoux]

Hi would you ever consider holding a competition for your fans to submit their own cocktail creations and yous try them out on your show?

[@cmcocktails]

already did that, yeah, it's a lot of work and tends to not get a lot of viewership

[@GeorgeChar95]

Another great thing to try is to infuse the vodka with cinchona bark, this will add the quinine missing from the Lillet Blanc.

[@cmcocktails]

yeah, for that I'd probably use higher proof vodka or mooneshine, like a good 100 proof version. I've got a bag of cinchona bark :)

[@Enrico_Palazzo_opera_singer]

I know it`s for food...but shouldn`t you have a palate cleanser between the tasting?

[@cmcocktails]

you can if you want, I've not seen this done often. At professional tastings usually we do that if we've got like a range of, say, 10 spirits to taste in a row. In which case sometimes saltines or just water can work.

[@PnutButter1986]

I'm a professional bartender and I may have to look up a recipe occasionally, but once I have made it once it stays in my head for next time, and my collection grows

[@cmcocktails]

good to know!

[@CocktailsConsoles]

So glad you guys are making the Vesper! Thanks for the recommendation for Cocchi Americano as a more true-to-life swap for Kina Lillet. Why did they stop making Kina? PS: Am a similar fan of the ice shards, especially in a Cosmopolitan or a Corpse Reviver #2 :)

[@cmcocktails]

the company that made Kina went out of business I believe...it happens. Same thing happened to the original Fassionola syrup used in the original classic hurricanes.

[@jollopar]

The "kina" in the lillet is quinine, and imparts a subtle bitterness (which to me makes the drink). At some point a few decades ago, the makers of Kina Lillet decided/determined that their drinkers preferred sweet lillet, and so removed the quinine. So by all means use the Cocchi Americano. Also, when the book was written, gin was typically 47% and vodka 50%. Gin is still often 47%, but vodka is typically 40% (50% vodka can still be found). Grain vodka is the preferred. And if using period-correct spirits, shaking it - and diluting some of that rocket fuel - probably saves lives. Then again, martini glasses back then were a little smaller... so there's that. And - to nitpick - you technically did do something wrong: you left out the lemon peel. The citrus oil is a small thing, but the devil's in the details, so to speak. But you left it out of both so... your scientific method is secure. Otherwise, nicely done!

[@chitoryu12]

I don't think you'd need to worry about small martini glasses, as Bond specifically asks for his drink in a deep champagne goblet. When I worked with a Dear Irving bartender to make this, I did 3 ounces of gin, 1 ounce of vodka, and half an ounce of Cocchi Americano. It filled up a glass quite well.

[@wrany72]

If you used the Lillet (which I have) could I add a few drops of Campari to mimic the Cocchi?

[@cmcocktails]

I don't know, but it probably wouldn't hurt!

[@wrany72]

Common Man Cocktails I was going to try it regardless, but thought I would ask your opinion.

[@cmcocktails]

it would be much like utilizing bitters. Campari is like a cocktail bitter, but in a larger bottle (and probably with more sugars)

[@pcmacintyre]

If using Lillet add a couple dashes of Angostura bitters.

[@AnthonyMagsajo]

Kina Lillet was made with quinine (the main ingredient in tonic / tonic syrup) It's said that Lillet has made some odd runs of bottles with quinine - but it's easier (and I'd imagine cheaper) to find Cocchi Americano. As you can guess Cocchi Americano is made with quinine.

[@JLei1987]

So glad to see this video. I have 3 bottles of lillet because of this. Well the old video. Good to see Doug back in these episodes. He adds so much to your already "awesome drink"ing series... would be cool to see Doug and Donn make more appearances together.

[@cmcocktails]

Thanks. We had him here for 8 hours so we did a month of filming :)

[@cinderblockstudios]

My memorized drinks are the Daiquiri and like Ian, the Whiskey Sour...really anything that follows the 2:1:1/2 ratio is pretty easy to know. Also the Gimlet.

[@cmcocktails]

true, you can always make it up if you're doing 2:1:1/2 and get something that works.

[@spikesproductions1096]

QOTD: I've memorized some of the basic IBA cocktails-like the Whiskey/Boston Sour, Dry Martini, Old Fashioned, Margarita, Daiquiri, etc... I also (for some reason) have the Brain Hemorrhage Shooter committed to memory.

[@Trespasser249]

you should put a dash or 2 of angostura bitters in the little one.. its even better that way.

[@cmcocktails]

it's always better with bitters :)

[@Pengothing]

I'm not going to lie, the only recipe I remember is the old fashioned. Sometimes using a bourbon, sometimes whisky, sometimes reposado tequila. The tequila wasn't the greatest idea, but it wasn't terrible either.

[@cmcocktails]

nice :)

[@justmutantjed]

I'm not a fan of tequila, generally speaking, but you may have something that could get me interested. What brand did you use, Pengothing?

[@Pengothing]

It was Hornitos Reposado. I wouldn't really recommend going out of your way to get a tequila to try that. It was a spur of the moment thing so I wasn't just drinking neat tequila without lemons.

[@justmutantjed]

Ah, OK. Thanks anyhow! ... Tequila Sunrises too, though...

[@charlesingram5818]

Guys, Gin is a "recipe" spirit, unless you have forgotten. That is why every Gin tastes a little different. Every label has it's own unique combination of Juniper and other aromatics. There is nothing "low" about any Gin, only marketing and recipe which gives each its own taste and thus makes one Gin better for different mixed drinks or taste preferences, sort of like a Wine's combination of sun, soil, grape, cask and aging. Gordons was chosen by Bond because it's "flavour" was his preference. Over marketing by other distillers is what has made Gins like the "Blue" labels percieved (by some less knowedgeable drinkers) as being lower shelf. You say "potato" and I say "potAto".

[@cmcocktails]

Personally, I don't see how your argument is a gin-only one. Why is gin a "recipe" spirit, but whiskey isn't? Or mezcal? Unless we're talking about vodka, pretty much every core spirit is designed by the designer to taste a specific way. Just as I didn't forget about gin as a spirit, please don't forget there are many spirits on the market that aren't gin ;-) The fact is, however, that if I make a vesper and I don't make it with Gordon's gin I get all types of negative comments, so I like to address this as such. At the same time, I cannot fully agree that all gin is created equal in the eyes of the gin gods and you can definitely have a lower grade gin just like you can have a lower grade vodka, whiskey or tequila. The raw materials, the amount of raw materials, how those raw materials are handled and used in the recipes is going to make a difference. If you use less raw material (herbs) and neutral grain spirit that's cut with more heads/tails than another you can indeed get a cheaper gin. If you use more than just the "heart" of the distillate you'll make more product and have more yield and create a lower priced product as a result. Just because you can hide a lot of those imperfections using a vibrant herb like cardamom doesn't make it on par with others that put in a longer effort, use better herbs and only the heart cut of the distillate. So... I guess we'll have to disagree with the concept of no low grade gin.

[@charlesingram5818]

So tell me the Recipe for Burbon? Or Scotch? What herbals and botanicals are blended to give it it's unique flavor? Ageing in different wooden casks doen't count because no two are likely the same.

[@cmcocktails]

Whiskey? That's too easy! The Mash Bill is the bases for the recipe itself. The ratio of rye to barely, the ratio of corn to barley malts, etc. A whiskey that's 51% corn, 45% wheat, and 4% barely is going to be entirely different from a bourbon that is 99% corn and 1% malt. Hell, you can buy the whiskey recipe and have MGP make it for you if you want: www.mgpingredients.com/distilled-spirits/beverage/product/bourbon If you're taking away wooden casks as part of the process, I'm taking herbs away from your gin as "the recipe." Just because you don't agree doesn't make it true. Whiskey uses different filtration techniques to impact flavor (e.g. coal, for what those call "Tennessee" whiskey), they also take into account proof of the spirit before it goes into wood. A spirit cut to 140 proof will not get the same impact of the wood as that of 160 proof, or 90 proof. The water that is used makes a difference (as it does for other spirits), the amount of time it is spent in wood, if the product is blended with different wood styles over the course of the time, or solera blended to work to get a specific taste (or a specific consistent taste). Of course, with whiskey the final proof makes a big difference as well. A Knob Creek cut at 90 vs. 120 is entirely different and the notes it picks up from the aging process is different. That of course doesn't even account for any cask conditioning or reusing old casks vs. new. How the product is stored, the humidity that is used all plays a part (just as it does for island rums). Your narrow view of what makes a recipe for consistency doesn't take into account all the other parts of the process. In the case of rum, part of the finalized recipe may be something such as the ratio of column still to pot still used to build out the product. Or, how much dunder is added from the original molasses base to the product that gives it the sweet funk. Or the terrior of the land that was used for a specific recipe (the grounds used for a Jamaican rum are entirely different than those for Barbados making the final recipe different). Rum is like a red wine, the land has as much impact as the process. Whiskey may be more region specific, a Canadian rye based whiskey recipe won't taste like a rye based Japanese recipe even if you were to use the exact same ratios of grains. I could get more into tequila (and mezcal vs. baca nora and raicilla but I hope you get the idea)

[@brettholdaway7989]

Twist of lemon!

[@steveflood3734]

I know right? They didn't put the large thin slice of lemon peel! WTF

[@JB-sz4wy]

Ive only drank G%T (fevertree I love) although a client of my dads said he loved Cocchi and gin martini which my dad said to me he said had Q in it and also likes the vermouths etc. Never knew what it was before although when I heard I said that tonic anything is good to me and I found you can get it at the local liquor store. Cocchi is superior to and more expensive than lillet blanc and has a higher quality tonic taste though actually lillet blanc does too its just watered down and lessened. Most people everyone I know KNOWS good stuff is better, although you have to go through lots of watered down crap these days which companies produce to cut costs like Schweppes Tonic which is so bad its essentially a sugar drink. I found fever-tree and want to get Q though it isnt here - never got to Lillet or Cocchi though would like it. Our market in Halifax NS many not be the best in the world but Petes Frootique has some improved stuff. The store is not licensed though he sells alcohols elsewhere. Still I found Fever-tree tonic and bitterlemon there which are very good

[@cmcocktails]

most mass market soda's and such are really not that great, but they got a lot of marketing power and, let's face it, people are just unwilling to spend money on good stuff. This has been a problem for a long while, once you give people something cheap they don't want to spend more--a good reason China and Walmart do so well vs. american made stuff. Even cheap stuff that won't last, people will just buy it 3 times as it breaks down rather than spend 20% more up front to buy something that won't break down.

[@btomlin2383]

Fevertree beats Q hands down. I want to like other (less expensive) tonics, but none are close to me.

[@GG3191145]

No lemon?

[@arkatoz]

Cocchi is better than Lillet, but if you want the closest thing to the original Kina Lillet you should use L.N. Mattei Cap Corse Blanc.

[@cmcocktails]

haha, everytime I find "something closer" someone comes up with a new suggestion :)

[@sbrownproductions]

Manhattan and the Leg Spreader -- two completely different drinks, but I make them often and they are damn simple recipes.

[@cmcocktails]

lol, leg spreader, I remember that one.

[@sbrownproductions]

When I order it at a bar, I just give the recipe, they always ask for the name and I refuse to say it. But ever bartender that has tried it really loves how it tastes

[@sniperwolfjs]

Where's the the lemon twist?

[@cmcocktails]

If you want a lemon twist you can add it

[@CoryI]

These new videos. Doug + Ian. Dream come true. I'm hoping for a mayonnaise drink they can bond over.

[@cmcocktails]

Thanks!

[@NightSilk]

I love you guys! You always make the best cocktails

[@cmcocktails]

Thanks!

[@Kaija97]

I am so happy doug is back

[@cmcocktails]

yeah! :)

[@ArchShockzPS3]

idk if it would be possible really but if you could do a video on the Donald Draper Old Fashioned?

[@cmcocktails]

what makes that any different than a standard old fashioned?

[@charlesbrun5475]

The "Don Draper Old Fashion" is that 1950's style. Muddle fruit, sugar, bitters, Canadian Club (although he does use a Rye once) and a healthy amount of soda water. REPLY

[@cmcocktails]

so it's just an old fashioned with Canadian club? :)

[@rayje7098]

Funny that I see this. I had just read the part about Bond ordering a Vesper in Casino Royale. Also, this is the first video of your I've watched in probably... a year? Liking the new format. I stopped watching mostly cuz the videos got so long and just seemed to ramble. As for the QotD: I trained to be a bartender and so while I can't really think of any recipes off my head but once someone lists off the recipe I can name it most of the time. The one cocktail I probably have down in memory is the Irish Trashcan. Any thoughts on redoing that one?

[@cmcocktails]

You've been gone for a year!? Well, in that time...you missed us re-doing the irish trashcan :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/ip_Nf4KCirKkn80 I've shorted the videos down to attract a wider audience, and our new channel will be even more on point (probably around 5 minutes or so)

[@grayblanchard]

Much more approachable with lillet Blanc

[@cocktailcinema2690]

Cheers gents!

[@cmcocktails]

cheers

[@philipcooper6828]

Doesn't lillay have a t in it

[@cmcocktails]

did I miss the T in the ingredient breakdown?

[@mmaandel]

Lillet

[@bornlastnight7286]

Lillet is a French word. When they end with et it's pronounced like a long a, so it sounds like lillay.

[@chrisbaker4622]

I love cocchi!!!

[@cmcocktails]

yeah, it's not half bad!

[@lassekarlsson5385]

swedish gin

[@philipcooper6828]

Are you confused Doug,it's the Jen show,if your gonna talk that much shouldn't you be in front of the camera

[@dakotaflores56]

Are you guys hiring?

[@cmcocktails]

hiring for what? I can't even afford to pay myself :) lol

[@tannergrinzel1835]

He is a bartender at home but others help out

[@spikesproductions1096]

Cool! ^_^

[@sniperwolfjs]

Cokey!

[@Carryon392]

Guy in the Middle... please use your normal tone of voice. You've given me a headache and yourself zero respect.

[@cmcocktails]

fuck respect, respect is for losers and whiners :)

[@Carryon392]

@@cmcocktails I stand corrected. If anyone on this planet knows about losers it would you.

[@cmcocktails]

Yep, we'll just call you the Where's Waldo of losers. 2 months later, but I found ya! Just took a bit of time.