VFR ABOVE CLOUD - Inspired or INSANE?

[@crooked-halo]

Excellent video! I made a foolish flight as a private pilot similar to this video. I had a Piper Arrow and two friends & we were going from San Antonio, Texas to Harlingen, Texas for the CAF Airshow that day. Forecast from just south of S.A. to just north of Harlingen was for widespread, thick fog up to 200 feet AGL and visibilities less than 1/4 mile. Our 235 mile flight took about 1 1/2 hours. Yes, I went. Risking the lives of 2 friends. I flew high, 10,500, I guess to prolong the misery should the engine quit. I've never seen fog like that before, but I wanted to go to the airshow. Harlingen was VFR & we made it without incident, but damn! In hindsight I wouldn't do that again!

[@simonevans8979]

Weather kills. FACT. All VFR pilots should practice IMC with IFR trainers. The fact you have such training means things are safer.

[@rickkennerly2379]

My dad used to spin our Stinson down through the cloud deck, not unheard of on the Great Plains at that time (60’s)

[@lionelfara1990]

Hello. Interesting approach, but as always producing fear among VFR pilots about does no reach the goal of flight safety. Question : Why - on ALL VFR aircraft - is on the main center of our instruments is an artificial horizon ? What is the purpose of this ? I fully agree with you provided we then take ou from our instruments panel the vacuum pump, directional gyro and horizon. And we all will save money. Then, you will fly VFR. You cannot imagine how many VFR pilots killed themself and their passengers trying to respect what you are saying : I shall never enter in a cloud, or above, then let try below, (even with an IFR certified aircraft like SR22, and the pilot was familar with the use of autopilot....)...and of course it ended with a controlled or uncontrolled flight into terrain, because the clouds of fog was hiding the mountains. They were killed because their fear to broke this dogma, like disciples of a sect. I was 300 FH, only VFR, when during a navigation in a C152 I found myself trap in a classical situation : terrain altitude increasing in a mountainous area, clouds descending, and my height above terrain decreasing...meteo forecast not as good as described and planned. Not a situation with an happy future....At destination, VFR conditions were confirmed. Then Solution A/ attempt a 180 turn, hoping the mountains hidden in the mist were far enough for safety... Solution B/ choosen, and I am still here to talk about it : Climb above this, using...the artificial horizon. It is done for that. Full throttle, 7 deg up, wings at level, and it is starting. Check the heading, stable...OK. 5 min later, I was above the clouds in a clear air. Radio to ATC as normal. When arrived above destination, I was still above the clouds OVC, but I know that under, ATIS was saying : > 10 km, OVC 4000 ft....Then, I did a descent using the same technics : down, horizontal wings, check heading, speed, and vertical speed. 5 min later, I was back to VFR....Safe and controlled. I used this famous Gyro horizon, and I found it efficient. The failure probability during the 5 min I used it was closed to 0, and I used this procedure several times, from then, always in contact with ATC, squawking, followed and controlled, no risk of collision. I even fly several minutes in IMC with a failed horizon, using the turn rate indicator (should remain horizontal), directional gyro, and vertical speed to manage the situation. Instruments are in from of you for a purpose : helping you. Then, use them ! I finally get my IR rating with 900 FH, putting me on the right side of the regulation, but not sure that I was on he wrong side of safety before....I now have 1500 FH, and still convinced of this : ALL pilots, VFR or not, should be trained to used the gyro horizon ion a stress situation : climb, turn, descent. and I can insure several lifes wil be saved. Because the pilots knowledeges and capacities level will remain above the situation difficulties and stress level, meaning safety. Accident occurs when the former level goes under the secong one... We are all different, then our management level will be different, we just shall all remain on the right side of the difficulty level we can manage. Situation awareness, workload management, etc...are the compentencies to be expanded. Not fear and dogmas. Of course, we can discuss about IMC single engine safety, etc ...But the purpose is not to fly for 3h00 in IMC with not-redundant instruments, but only enough time to save the situation. Failure proba is then less that the one used for certification of the aircraft itself. If you increase the level of knowledges and capabilities of every single pilot, you then will increase the flight safety. If you increase fear, you increase stress, and then your capabilities can be overcome by the difficulties level (See above), and accident proba increases.

[@neemahwright3193]

Great videos! Have you considered using ND filters on your cabin GoPros? Would enable you to reduce your shutter-speed for clearer outside and inside view simultaneously (would be especially beneficial in bright summer weather)! Safe flying 👍🏻 Ha

[@ralfmatters448]

Great thoughtful videos. I find in Australia on a long cross country it is better not to diverge from planned track too much but get to the last hole closest to track to descend through. When the clouds are thin stratus the air is pretty smooth under them anyway, thus avoiding hours of bumpy cruising. If the clouds have embedded tall cumulus in them consider landing at an alternative. I have spent many hours on the ground walking up and down airstrips waiting for the weather to clear... enough! Thank you for the effort you put into sharing your aviation experience. As I do my DI I have thought of your commentary about what mistakes will I make today? It helps to have another pilot in your ear when you are assessing the risks, I recommend these videos to my friends.

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

Your approach sounds similar to mine. I formalized it into a simple rule. When flying VFR over-the-top, I will not pass one hole unless I can see the "next" hole. This saves me from worrying that I'll trying to turn back for a hole only to discover it has closed up in the meantime.

[@ShortField]

Yes that is exactly the way I try to do it. Thank you.

[@davebuggins2198]

I really enjoy your videos Terry, I’ve watched your previous ( VFR on top ) many times, however you never really showed climbing and descending through the gaps, however you did with this video and I found it very informative, great video. As you know I like to go VFR on top when I can but still quite conservative with it, however watching your video I realise I’m doing the right things, I check airfields Metars on route but listening in on ATIS around your destination is another great tip/ reminder…. I will probably watch this one a few times as well.👍👍

[@ShortField]

Cheers Dave need to go flying together again soon.

[@midlifeppl4969]

A well thought out and informative Vlog - Always looking out for your quality presentations!

[@ShortField]

Thank you so much.

[@johnling4299]

Brilliant video, as I just just qualified last year NPPL M and fly a flexwing, this sort of video is perfect. Decision making, how you go about your flights superb. Originally from Harlow I spend many days at North Weald. … a very happy and impressed fan . John ling

[@ShortField]

Thanks John

[@geoffreycoan]

I saw that AAIB report when it came out last week, a horrible series of mistakes that surprised me happened. Hope lessons are truly learnt from it. I’m personally not at all comfortable with VFR on top because you are so reliant on finding that hole. Maybe VFR over the top and as you said at 10:19, flying such that you can always see an “out” even if that is behind you or off route, but not for long distances though. I had one descend through thin cloud that was not as thin as it looked that scared me and made me very cloud-adverse for a long time afterwards. No desires to do that again

[@ShortField]

Thanks Geoffrey I agree it certainly isn't for everyone.

[@CJThePilot]

Nice video Terry. I agree with the needing to have several alternative plans and options. It's also crucial to assess the actual conditions before deciding to go up above any cloud layer. I'll hopefully be posting a video soon of a cross country flight I did back in 2022, where the majority of the cruise was VFR on top. I hope you're keeping well

[@ShortField]

Thanks Chris, looking forward to your next video. All good with me buddy and you seem to have sorted out your situation which is fantastic.

[@Valy18]

Great video. I also has a similar incident. The scariest moment probably in 100 hours as a VFR pilot. I was asked by the advisory controller to descent due to incoming traffic. This happened while at 9000 feet above the Austrian Alps with overcast at around 8000. In my mind I was convinced that the layer is not think. Ended up in IMC with mountains below descending to around 6000 using only the GPS terrain map. Also banked a bit as I wasn't trained to fly IFR. Fortunately, I've got out of clouds in a valley and nothing happened expect a good scare. Morale of the story, be careful when above clouds, and *ALWAYS* say unable to a controller when you are having doubts And this also happened in a Crusier by the way😅

[@gzk6nk]

What about the risk of engine failure of you are above a solid layer of cloud with no holes within gliding distance?

[@meznaric]

This. Especially if you only have vacuum instruments. Imagine having to descend partial panel in an emergency without any training in instrument flying. What could go wrong...

[@AV8R_1]

In 18 years of flying (I am instrument rated but not current) I have never allowed myself to get above a solid layer VFR, for the very reason you describe. "VFR on top" is perfectly legal, but like you said, if you have an engine failure, you're screwed. Now you're going to have to deal with not only the engine failure but the unplanned decent into IMC without engine power. An engine failure alone is enough high risk high stress situation without having to suffer it in IMC also.

[@FasterLower]

My instructor will not fly unless there is 1000 ft BELOW the cloud (and he has a full instrument rating!) to the ground. That way there's a fighting chance to pick a suitable landing spot on clearing the could. IMHO, if your aircraft is IMC capable (though may not be IMC legal) them you really should get some instrument training and keep current. This doesn't have to be in cloud - just carry a safety pilot who can look out and then you focus and fly the instruments. As always said: IM NOT AN INSTRUCTOR - DISCUSS WITH YOURS!

[@gzk6nk]

In 35 years of vfr flying I would never entertain vfr on top in a single. The Chipmunk has vacuum instruments but that aside, it's really a vfr aeroplane and I'm a vmc pilot. Engine failure above solid cloud is a death sentence under those circumstances.

[@ShortField]

Always something to be aware of but I suppose you have to treat it the same way as if you were flying a single engine aircraft over a large body of water Vince.

[@Treadstone7]

Great video! As in many cases, it comes down to what you personally feel comfortable with. It also depends on the actual weather conditions. Therefore, precise flight planning and weather observation is key. In the end, it's important to know what to do in case of engine failure. As long as you can descend below the cloud layer either through holes or turning back or to the side, all good. No need to take unnecessary risks but also no need to constantly distrust your engine. If you start to overestimate the risks, it won't take long until you are not flying at all.

[@halfrhovsquared]

An interesting point to note is that VFR for a PPL(A) is not quite the same as for a PPL(G). VFR on top (of overcast) may be legal for you. It is not for us. One of the conditions of our licence is that we must remain in sight of the surface at all times. VFR over broken, would be legal because we can still see the ground. VFR over fog is not. Also, despite there being a night-rating for gyrocopters, there is no such thing as an instrument rating. I think that similar VFR conditions apply to PPL(H), too but perhaps a heli-pilot will correct me on that one.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

PPL (H) VFR minima below 3000ft is only 800 meters.

[@halfrhovsquared]

@@GolfFoxtrot22 - I knew someone would fill in details for me. Cheers. Do you happen to know if PPL(H) VFR require to always be in sight of the surface? ie no VFR over the top of overcast ? (Or... from that perspective, would it be considered undercast??? ;) )

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

@@halfrhovsquared it's the same rules for Helicopters, just a lower minima for horizontal below 3000ft.

[@altomar718]

I think I've watched every video you've done mate , but that was brilliant with so much useful information.... cheers Terry mate ... Chris

[@ShortField]

Thank you buddy, cheers Chris awesome support.

[@SpectrumGeeks]

Excellent video thanks for sharing. As a recently qualified pilot its great to get insights from others with more experience.

[@musoseven8218]

Another great video Terry, great graphics and great explanations too, so much better than a book👍✌️💜 I've been caught out on two notable occasions, once as a student and with my father as I flew from the right seat - that was through several MATZ's, with a plan AB & C. It's not fun, sweaty palms, tests ones mettle and focuses the mind ("I learnt about flying from that"). Nowadays pilots are lucky to have so much information at their fingertips as long as analysis paralysis is avoided or, worse still, over confidence. You raise very good points about the real world and being there on the day. If I ever get back to it, I'll always class myself as a rank amateur and plan accordingly - hopefully always being cautiously confident as opposed to over confident. An engine failure on top would concern me, as, morbidly, I always look out of the window when VFR and think, "which field can I get down in, if the fan stops?". Above cloud that's not possible without electronic maps etc. I'd like to know your thoughts on this aspect 🤔🤔 Thanks again and keep up the good work, your thinking is very sound with sage advice 👍✌️💜😊

[@wingandaprayer883]

I think it's a bit of a trade off. It is a bit of a calculated risk, flying at a night in a pitch black sky with all the lights twinkling below is an incredible experience to me.. one that I never grow tired of. In a single engine I am very much aware that should I lose that engine my options really are limited so I try and plan a route that takes me past the vicinity of lit airfield runways, but of course that is not always possible. So there are stretches of time when all I have below is inky blackness. A successful forced landing in that scenario is highly unlikely, so I guess I accept that risk. It is the same thing flying over large banks of fog or mountainous terrain. Flying can never be considered perfectly safe. All we can do really is try to stack the odds in our favour most of the time.

[@InducedBank]

Great explanation Terry, and love the animations! I think for single engine aircraft - at least for me - VFR on top, over 3,000 ft, I still want to have an 'escape route' available at all times, and if I can't be sure that will continue, then it's time to get below cloud. On my flight from Darley Moor to East Fortune, technically I could have stayed on top all the way as it turned out the cloud was well broken at my destination, but on my way up despite sitting up at 8,500ft, all I could see on my path north was endless unbroken cloud, so chose to get down below the cloud - then there wasn't enough clearance between land and cloud base to continue on my planned route, so diverted out to the east, eventually flying around the Newcastle CTA and then was once again able to get back on top until descent to East Fortune - in hindsight I still believe that was the safest decision, although it would have been technically legal to fly on at that 8,500 over the cloud. Safety has to be our first priority.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Mike I loved that video Mike an episode every flex wing pilot should watch kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2e1h6Z_r6d1hNU

[@philostroff6163]

Terrific videos, Terry! I've been watching your channel for a while. I just entered into a partnership that owns a Piper Sportcruiser here in Texas, and your videos were very helpful! I bought into the partnership so I can have the plane to train on (Going for my Sport license here), and later explore some of the quieter airfields of Texas and beyond. I'm also British (born in Essex) and passed by your home airfield when there a couple of months ago. Oddly, I also checked out Duxford Air Museum, so was delighted with your video about flying there. Anyway, keep up the great work!👍

[@sarahsharpe7392]

Thanks for the interesting and informative video. I haven't felt comfortable getting above the clouds yet, knowing the changeable local weather in New Zealand. Useful to see how you approach it.

[@ChrisFlies]

Great video Terry and something I am often thinking about as I build my experience and confidence. I have an IR(R) rating and fly a IFR aircraft but also fly a non IFR aircraft. As you say proper planning is key and I would add not to fly outside of your confidence or capability, as it’s rarely the aircraft at fault and usually the pilot, as in the very sad accident you mention. Great insight into how to plan and fly safely if you want to go above the clouds and make the most of the weather in the UK.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Chris, excellent comment buddy.

[@jonnytailwheel]

Really appreciate your videos especially these that are very practical and informative thank you!

[@kevchilton908]

Another excellent video, Terry 👍 A controversial subject beautifully explained. Love your graphics 👌👏👏👏

[@ianclampin103]

Great videos. I remember when I hadn't long gained my licence. I took off from an airfield and within a few minutes flew into IMC conditions, it took me by surprise, but I kept calm kept level and did a careful 180 back to VMC. A very unpleasant experience but a lesson learned.

[@Stumpchunkman226]

What a great channel. Thanks so much for your videos. I’m contemplating going for my Sport Pilot license in the US. This is great info!

[@ShortField]

Thank you so much. Go for it, the US is the best place in the world for GA flying.

[@Stumpchunkman226]

@@ShortField out of curiosity, what makes it the best?

[@ShortField]

@@Stumpchunkman226 Lots of reasons, the variation in terrain, the sheer landmass you have to fly in, free or very cheap public airports, controlled airspace that serves all airspace users equally, cheap fuel, cheap aircraft hire....I could go on 🙂

[@Stumpchunkman226]

@@ShortField I’m going for it. Thanks for your input, sir! Looking forward to checking out the rest of your videos!

[@louissanderson719]

@@Stumpchunkman226as a Brit, the USA is GA heaven

[@simonbussey7530]

Your videos and editing are excellent. Thank you for making them.

[@ShortField]

Thank you so much Simon really appreciate that lovely comment sir.

[@rainbowdash7194]

Hi Terry I hope you are well. I got my PPL 18 months ago, and on a flight back in November I made a terrible mistake that almost caused to crash into some pylons and I was terrified to get back into the cockpit and thought I never would again. However your videos really inspired me to learn from my mistake and today I'm glad to say I'm back flying again and loving every minute. Thank you so much. If it weren't for you I wouldn't have rekindled my love for flying.

[@ShortField]

Graham thank you so much for your wonderful comment captain.

[@thecrow3380]

Unlikely as it seems, you somehow manage to introduce a Zen-like aspect to the pursuit of light aviation; so relaxing (:>

[@porkorosso7885]

Thanks for another great video Terry. Great skill to have and should be taught as part of basic training.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Vince

[@neilbarriskell7840]

Nice video Terry! Really good info!

[@ShortField]

Thanks Neil

[@DeadReckoner]

This was really informative and the production was excellent, Terry. Well done!

[@ShortField]

Thanks Scott really appreciate that especially for you sir.

[@glennwatson]

Rules are a bit different here. 5km horizontal distance. Below 3000 feet agl must be clear of cloud. Above 3000 just keep a 1000 feet buffer vertical buffer from cloud. If vfr over the top you need to keep positive fixes at least every half hour. You can fly with IFR flight rules (still need to be vmc) if you have competency and do IFR reporting etc. This means you have ATC in your life and still need to find a way down on the other side but can have more than half an hour between ground fixes being identifed. Melbourne gets a ton of low cloud and I have skud run during my training. Vfr on top in both USA and here is a IFR procedure.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Glenn. I suppose the inclement weather in the UK allows visual pilots the option of climbing above but it is always a risk. However in my 4 years of owning a VFR only aircraft and flying above cloud VFR on probably 50% of my flights I have only been caught out once (my most popular video :-) but that was not because I didn't have a place to descend through very thin cloud more that I put myself under a time constraint.

[@oliverracz2686]

In the US, both VFR on top and VFR over the top exist. VFR on top means you climb through a layer of clouds on an IFR flight plan, then you cancel IFR and continue VFR. VFR over the top is when you climb out VFR and end up over a cloud layer. For the first one you need to have an instrument rating and the aircraft has to be equipped for IFR flight. For the second one there are no such requirements.

[@stevezodiac160]

Great video very sensible advice. The accident you refer to probably wouldn’t have happened if they (and the controllers) had seen it. Maybe a bit more emphasis on lowest safes and what to do if you do get into trouble. Fantastic videos. Please keep them coming.

[@ShortField]

Agree Steve this accident was so unnecessary. Thanks for the kind comments buddy.

[@turdwarbler]

whats your plan for getting below the cloud if you are VFR on top and for whatever reason there is no hole, no option to turn back, or go higher or lower or anything apart from down through the cloud. One day it will happen so whats your plan then ?. Mine is to trim the plane for a steady cruise descent at 500 fpm, and just descend in a straight line until you pop out below the cloud, in the past I nearly completed my IMC so I am happy doing this, but I should really go back and complete enroute IR now. It also requires some knowledge of what terrain you are dropping down into and what clearance the cloud base gives you. On nice fluffy cloud days I tend to pick isolated clouds and making sure I am the only one doing this, I fly though them, switching to instruments for 10, 20, secs etc. Very good practice and sobering as to how instantly you go from VFR to IMC. Just read the AAIB report, what a mess. He flew a CAP10B which is the same type as my plane, but mine is a C with the newer AI.

[@terrancestodolka4829]

Nice information on flying. Yes, the IFR certificate is the College degree to fly... It Gives you a certain understanding of safely flying in weather.

[@ShortField]

Thank you. I don't know an IR is a great ticket but there's so many pilots that get it and will use autopilot 99.9% of the time and never get any hands on cloud time. Flying on the dials is not difficult but needs constant practice or the day the A/P goes U/S in cloud there's another smoking hole in the deck.

[@hthomp9609]

Great video again 👍. I do feel that during any flight training some instrument flying should be a requirement even if it’s to get the IR(restricted). A figure going around during training was that a pilot with 0 ir training had an average of 40 seconds from entering IMC to the plane being in an uncontrolled state.

[@ShortField]

You do get a couple of hours under the hood on ab-initio training but you don't get to practice this most perishable skill after that which is why IMC for a VFR pilot is so dangerous, even more so the further they get from their initial training.

[@abingdonboy]

I read the full report today and stumbled across your video looking for some commentary on the incident. As a an instrument rated commercial pilot I’m pretty surprised by the failure in planning on the part of this flight and the willingness to go up in such marginal conditions with no instrument training and in a VFR only aircraft That said I’m even more shocked by the performance of the ATS units involved, requesting this pilot to perform an ILS and SRA approach is just the tip of the iceberg. During my training instructors had mentioned that London control would be an effective asset for inadvertent entry into IMC, pretty disturbing how badly the system broke down here. As they say aviation’s lessons are written in blood, I’m sure lessons will be learned and hopefully this will avoid a similar tragedy in the future, what a horrible situation this flight found itself in, RIP

[@ShortField]

I know so many missed opportunities to get this guy home safe.

[@gregmcmaster5528]

Thanks, Both, for your knowledgeable and insightful comments. I'm not a pilot, but hope to move in that direction soon. So I saw the reports of this crash (I'm not prepared to call it an accident!!) With dismay and sadness. Especially as, at about the same time as the preliminary report of this incident, there was a report from the US of a pilot who'd got himself into very similar difficulties. However, ATC were able to task 2 Navy (instrument rated) fliers to escort him to a safe landing. What were London control thinking about and why didn't they task Red 5 similarly ? I hope that, by the time I'm airborne, the recommendations of this report are fully implemented. Fly safe. Greg.

[@GolfFoxtrot22]

Cheers for that Terry. Some really good thought provoking discussion.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Giles.

[@BumbleBee55R]

In the US, we use the term, "VFR On Top". I have never heard the term, "VFR Over The Top". Nice video.

[@JeanLucCoulon]

The real risk is, with a single engine, an engine failure over the top with the layer is solid. You have to pass through it… To mitigate that, be careful to have enough room under the layer…

[@dr_jaymz]

Yes, this has to be factored in. Not only must you know that both ends has holes in the cloud but also you have to be able at any point to glide through holes at all times. The last thing you want is an emergency that leads to decent into imc. You'll definitely die. Engine failure not the only problem, fire on board for example. Unless cloud is really broken I wouldn't ascend above it.

[@rnzoli]

this is why I do "VFR over the top" with night-rated (NVFR-capable) aircraft only, as the latter rating is only given to aircraft equipped with engines of higher reliability.

[@JeanLucCoulon]

@@rnzoli the problem is it is given to the aircraft, not to the pilot... 🙄

[@bapbiswas]

Great video thanks

[@rogerclarke3291]

Really helpful video. Thanks for posting.

[@davidwheatcroft2797]

What happens if you cannot find a hole? Flying with the RAFVR, I had several hours of IFR training when I pushed it too far and went into a spiral dive in heavy cloud. Terrifying because pulling back just made things worse, increase the G. Wanting to quit, but death seconds away at 300kts!....."Power back to idle to reduce rate of descent. Roll wings level using the ADI; pull hard. When the little bird well into the blue, full power"....felt like walking on air, ALIVE! Flew again the next day, confident I had faced the worst and surprised myself by NOT panicking. A hotshot. Later HM gave me a Permanent Commission, one of 20 from 4,000 applicants. CAVU skies!

[@ShortField]

Excellent story David thank you for a great comment sir.

[@davidwheatcroft2797]

@@ShortField We flew 2/3 times a day. Formation, instruments, low level, aerobatics. Flying will bite you, so do EVERYTHING by the book. And still things will go sideways. Practise, practise; always waiting for something to fall off. Never relaxing. HM gave me a Permanent Commission in GD(P), one of 20 from 4,000 applicants. A major honour for little old me! Best wishes to a fellow aviator! We are like demi-Gods, able to change gravity.

[@Marbellous]

Nice video, thank you! I was just wondering, in your opinion do you keep a safe distance to another airplane when you take off? At 6:12 it looks way too close if the plane in front decides to make a stop or something worse.

[@vxco]

Great video 👍 thanks for sharing that

[@ams54321]

Plan A, B, C, D - is your last plan, worst case scenario, after all options are exhausted, that you have some instrument training and that you could safely descend through cloud if absolutely required?

[@grahamthebaronhesketh.]

Try IMC in a helicopter that is interesting. Especially climbing to pop out on top.

[@stephenstead6333]

Some people always forget what to watch for. After the training ends weather a killer

[@roberthatcher2773]

Great info, thanks! RIP to those who were killed.

[@flyingkub]

A great video. I am not keen on flying VRF On Top with the Kub as I don't have the range or speed to allow me to have suitable diversion options. I will fly over well brocken cloud and I do sometimes fly on top when there is cloud inland but not over the sea as we often have but even then I tend to like being in sign of the ground. Now with your aircraft I would probably go On Top more often if I flying to get some place, if the aircraft is just transport but for me I like to see the world slowly going under me.

[@ShortField]

Thanks Algy. The Kub is very light and obviously not suited to any IMC even if unintentional, to be honest I would never want to fly the SportCruiser in cloud even if it were legal the wing loading is very low and you would get thrown around in any convective cloud making it difficult to keep the thing wheels down.

[@flyingkub]

@@ShortField the funny thing about the Kub is how easy it handles in turbulence in thermic condition, the time it is troublesome is when landing in mechanical turbulence. I think that is because it is slow, so a bit like driving over speed bumps not bad slow but not fun at 80kts but low down mechanical turbulence is try to roll it over.

[@markallisonparamotor]

Very interesting video from my perspective as a paramotor pilot. Flying above the clouds is my favourite place, and as paramotors have no instruments we need to fly VFR at all times too. I have done the same, flown VFR on top but I only do it if I KNOW that cloud base is at least 2000 feet above ground so that if my engine fails, I'm not going to die. It makes me wonder how do you feel flying single engine over VFR? As you said in the video, it seems that you prefer to stay close to an "out", so if engine sputters out, you can at least glide back through the clouds VFR?

[@ShortField]

Cheers Mark, can you get spatial disorientation on a paramotor when in cloud?

[@markallisonparamotor]

@@ShortField I have only done it a couple of times when cloud base was 4000 feet and yes you can easily get disoriented, especially when there's no artificial horizon to look at. A paramotor is a pendulum, so at idle power, just let it fly trims out for maximum decent and you will pop out straight and level.

[@GodzillaGoesGaga]

Thermic action inside Cb clouds can be really bad for a ‘para’ pilot from my understanding. Convective air currents are really fast. I will also add, if you are flying FAR 103 you have to have visual contact with the ground at all times. VFR pilots don’t have that restriction.

[@brushitoff503]

Thank you Terry, great video & thanks for sharing. I am a curious person & have to ask, can you explain why the wings of your Aircraft appear to have "Oil-Canning" on the outer half of the wings? I'm not familiar with this aircraft so my apologies for asking. My brain thinks about "g" Loading but I'm sure that's wrong otherwise you wouldn't be flying it. Might be an idea for a video anyway. Cheers.

[@ShortField]

Thank you so much. Yes both SportCruisers I fly suffer from this, I think it's down to the lack of ribs to keep the weight down. We have wet wings and it's just an unsupported part of the skin not structural but it does look bad I agree.

[@andymac7up]

Great video. What do you use to plot your path on Google earth maps?

[@ShortField]

Hi Andy, I grad a still from Google Maps then use that as a background in After Effects where I add the graphics. It's quite simple but it illustrates a point.

[@stephenmarsh6746]

Read all 46 pages of the linked accident report. Such a mess of bad habits and lack of situational awareness from both the pilot and controllers involved.

[@RV6MIKEB]

Me too - much of the UK 'ATC' environment sucks with our long list of ICAO differences and privatised ANSPs, much of which emerges between the lines of the report. Quite why the UK can't bring itself to integrate and simplify VFR operations is a mystery to many.

[@dr_jaymz]

The controllers didn't really help him at all and seemed more concerned about the jet. But the jet pilot is far better qualified and had many options including an escape option. The light plane had no options at the point of getting stuck and yet the controllers didn't seem to grasp the inevitability that the plane will have to come down somewhere. Anyone can get into trouble and the controllers are basically a brain expansion to help, but here they're a mental block. Very sad.

[@stephenmarsh6746]

@@dr_jaymz I really get the sense that they thought of the light plane as more of a nuisance than a responsibility.

[@Sgt.Onion0]

RIP to those who we lost

[@yutoobe123]

Wouldn't it make sense to get some IFR training/online courses, even while not intending to get an IFR certificate, but just to know what to request for in case of an emergency? Plan Z if you like.

[@ShortField]

Already have that as I mentioned in the video but the aircraft is VFR only.

[@stevenstyles7602]

Terry What’s you’re thoughts on simulator practice? We all have either had a imc experience or are going to have one, with the British weather the chance are pretty good. I think it’s a good idea to keep up to speed on instrument flying, even if it’s just being able to keep the wings level with the artificial horizon.

[@nickclasper9692]

I've wondered if using VR would be a really interesting exercise to see how long (being non-IFR trained) it takes for the wheels to fall off without actually risking more than my office chair...

[@stevenstyles7602]

@@nickclasper9692 The Cap 10 crash bought home the harsh reality of getting caught out. If the pilot had just been “familiar” with the basics of instrument flying, he and his passenger my still be alive.

[@sheldonholy5047]

​@@stevenstyles7602 I don't disagree, though in the case of the Cap 10 he was within range of VMC airfields but just got vectored onto an SRA approach instead...

[@stevenstyles7602]

@@sheldonholy5047 Yes,, but I wonder if that made him panic, adding to his problems? Terrible ATC judgements.

[@ShortField]

Sim time gives you instrument appreciation Steve but the inertial effects of flying without reference to the ground play strange tricks on the inner ear and your balance and sim time is no replacement for actual IMC practice.

[@grahamthebaronhesketh.]

I fly on top loads. The problem is if the donkey stops you have to glide down into the soup.

[@randomuser1911]

New student here so please forgive my ignorance (and don't worry I won't be attempting this any time soon, I'll stick to learning to fly regular VFR first), when your above the clouds and don't have sight of the ground what do you use to navigate given you can't use VRPs? I'm assuming some GPS program on your phone? if so, what is it called?

[@ShortField]

Hi, yes I use either the GPS in the aircraft or on my flight app, the one I use is SkyDemon probably the most popular in Europe, in the US it would probably be ForeFlight. Good luck with the training sir.

[@nickschram6769]

USA regulations: VFR on top: flying over the clouds when on a IFR flight. VFR over the top: flying above the clouds on a VFR flight. We sill use both terms. they just have separate meanings. Is there a term in the UK for flying above the clouds while on a IFR flight plan?

[@ShortField]

In the UK you are either IFR or VFR, VFR over the top is not actually an official thing it's just VFR above 3,000ft which doesn't require you to be in sight of the surface.

[@TheAlf61]

VFR over the top is VFR, VFR on top is an IFR clearance illegal for non instrument rated pilots.

[@ShortField]

UK it's legal.

[@patrickmckowen2999]

Excellent video 👍

[@ShortField]

Thank you Patrick

[@GodzillaGoesGaga]

From my basic understanding a few things can happen in clouds. Shit can come out of them, shit can be hidden in them, they can merge to become a blanket and turbulence can be very strong in them. Best not to be caught above them would be my take on VFR.

[@dieholdendie]

Good video but I'd rather stay underneath or stay on the ground, just seems like unnecessary risk to me

[@ShortField]

Great advice and a wise move

[@vedymin1]

i feel like there should be no separate vfr and ifr cert...you are either a pilot that can use all the tools in the cockpit or you shouldn't be flying, you know how to fly in different conditions and where not to poke your nose or you don't, becouse you will surely get a big head and most likely be tempted to abuse the vfr limits and put yourself in a situation without an exit..and all the instruments in the cockpit will just be dead weight to you. To me its silly to operate a vehicle when you don't know how to operate a large portion of its instruments effectively.

[@landen99]

You won't die in IMC if you are trained in IMC, flying an aircraft capable of IMC and trusting your instruments.

[@alk672]

I’m confused. You’ve posted a 15 minute video about flying VFR over the top and never mentioned the possibility of an engine out? An instrument descent of a VFR only pilot in an unrated airplane with gyros spinning down… and maybe the cloud is all the way to the ground. You can’t be serious. Did I maybe miss it somehow?

[@ShortField]

Engine failure is a major issue no matter where you are in flight. In this aircraft we don't have vacuum instruments.

[@alk672]

@@ShortField well yeah, but descending through clear air with time to pick a landing spot is very different from a descent through a cloud that could be very low. This is a completely different level of risk.

[@rakshithkaranam4976]

Here is Newzealand during vfr is illegal to fly above clouds