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Пікірлер: 656
@camoking36092 жыл бұрын
VGC Players on turn 20: "dang that a was a long game" Smogon Players on turn 142:
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
I can sdly relqte
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
I use stall btw
@pokepenguin1442 жыл бұрын
@@eidkristo6107 bad person
@OmolonFluidDynamicsEnjoyer Жыл бұрын
Smogon players on turn 210,023,428,910,345,853,385,672,302,874: "That game ended quick damn. Real great play on turn 310,227,485,786,578,265 though. And that predict on turn 1,234,567,890 was just insane gg"
@Alvionalx Жыл бұрын
@@eidkristo6107 stall is poop
@Shyguymask2 жыл бұрын
I thought you were going to roast VGC, not the other way around 😂
@personunnamedREAL2 жыл бұрын
Oh hey look it’s that checkmark guy that I only learned the existence of through that plants vs. zombies vs. mode tournament video danerade made Or would you prefer it if I just said “hi shyguymask”
@tobigrantlbart2 жыл бұрын
I came to the conclusion by playing different format. VGC is actually pretty fun. The 4 Pokémon Limit makes you wonder what Pokémon your opponent takes into battle, and double mechanics are often more interesting.
@gusthavo15yearsand982 жыл бұрын
I thought you were going to start posting in your channel
@Astra.d22 жыл бұрын
woah it’s my favorite person to see in the terraria forums
@TheLudicrousLuv2 жыл бұрын
Same
@qedsoku8492 жыл бұрын
I have won a 700+ turn game that I was planning on winning by pp stalling, but eventually my opponent didn’t notice a future sight and their toxapex died
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
I made a pp stall team, people just quit when the noticed though. never played a full game.
@skinnysnorlax18762 жыл бұрын
Using human fatigue to bait out mistakes is a viable strategy, tho cans of redbull are being suspect tested as they may be "op".
@tomnuke91222 жыл бұрын
Christ, that sounds miserable for both sides involved. I hope you had an autoclicker.
@robinsimon41762 жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 considering "playing" includes having fun. cuz that is what a game is abt. pp stall teams are the opposite of fun, so you never really played any game with that team
@meatvortexgaming71342 жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 theres a special spot in hell for people like you
@inazumatan70502 жыл бұрын
If the VGC thing happened on Smogon: “Unfortunate does not begin to describe…”
@artemissrijan473 Жыл бұрын
Ahhh this golden ragequit
@yonatanbeer34752 жыл бұрын
Man, Aaron really had a 3% chance of winning and still took the W
@AshenDust_2 жыл бұрын
Double protect is 33%, not 3%
@habels84782 жыл бұрын
@@AshenDust_ Play Rough miss is calculated in there too!
@phillipanselmo85402 жыл бұрын
if you ever tried to get a double protect you'd know it's actually 3%
@yonatanbeer34752 жыл бұрын
@@AshenDust_ you don't see it in the clip I think, but Aaron also needed a play rough miss to get the water spout kill
@user-eu6sj2gj1t2 жыл бұрын
Origin pulse + Double Protect + Play rough miss = 0.85*0.33*0.1 = 0.02805. So yes, 3%
@swagfun90542 жыл бұрын
Lmao yeah the slower pace and ability for stall to be a more dominant thing kind of hurts smogon’s ability to work well as a spectator sport
@HowlingOneify2 жыл бұрын
Well stall sucks this gen so...
@HowlingOneify2 жыл бұрын
@@grunkleg.3110 doubles is faster paced which results in snap on the spot decisions. That is indeed risky. However singles has equally risky moments. Due to the nature of the format and all the pivoting and positioning, there are often multiple risky predictions made to gain advantages.
@selearth31232 жыл бұрын
@@grunkleg.3110 That's the same shit, you realize that right? Both are just rolls of the dice; do you hit focus blast? do you get the double protect? Neither one of them are inherently more exciting than the other. Maybe the double protect was exciting to you, I don't know, but if he's resorting to double protect that probably means it's his only out to win the game and then it's not a 'risky play' anymore because it's the only way he can win, he isn't choosing it over another, possibly viable option. It's the same shit as when, just as an example for singles, you're last mon Thundurus-T vs last mon Tyranitar and your Thundurus is running a standard Knock Off/Psychic/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast set. Clicking Focus Blast is the only viable option in scenarios where the Tyranitar isn't already chipped way down for Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch) to kill, so clicking Focus Blast isn't a play, it's just the only reasonable thing to do. There isn't anything to predict or outplay, Zacian is going to Play Rough 10/10 times because they're the only two mons left and it's the only move that kills Kyogre from that HP, and double protecting to get enough hp to live it isn't some sort of genius play when it's literally the only option where he doesn't lose the game on the spot. Maybe it's just me, but rolling a die and seeing if the outcome turns out in my favour or not isn't exciting to me, and that's whats going on here, exactly the same as in the Tyranitar/Thundurus example I gave you.
@justaliljello51982 жыл бұрын
@@selearth3123 While the example he gave definitely didn’t make sense doubles is definitely the riskier format. There are many more uncertainties in doubles than singles and wrong plays or rng will have you lose much more often.
@selearth31232 жыл бұрын
@@justaliljello5198 You can't just say 'there are more uncertainties' and 'wrong plays will have you lose more often' and then not provide any sort of examples, or stats, for a claim like that. At least argue the point, don't just say shit and leave it at that. I'll give you an example for singles: Let's just use Choice Specs Tapu Koko, but any offensive electric mon pretty much works for this scenario. They have a toxapex in right now, and their ground type in the back is Garchomp, and you don't know its set yet. I see a pretty wide range of decisions to make here on both sides, both with varying risks accompanying them (and this is ignoring the other 9 mons both players still have left). Just to type out some pretty common scenarios, do you: a) U-Turn predicting the Garchomp to come in on them predicting Thunderbolt, but risk it being rocky helmet and taking chip on Koko because of it. b) Risk that they stay in and now you have to potentially risk a toxic on a non-steel type if they click that, or a scald burn on a steel type if you predict toxic after you U-Turn and see that they stay in. c) Hard switch out predicting helmet Garchomp because you don't want your no-boots koko taking helmet chip when it's likely going to take rocks chip later on as well, but risk them staying in with the same thing occuring as in option b. d) Thunderbolt predicting your opponent staying in and killing Toxapex, but risking that they go Garchomp and giving them a free Rocks or Swords Dance opportunity because you predicted incorrectly. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at here, doubles isn't the only format where you have a large tree of decisions with risks associated to them each turn.
@DrFoggyPants2 жыл бұрын
I love how the VGC battle sounds like he jus pulled off a crazy combo that takes a ton of practice to do, when he just got lucky
@crazycoolkids002 жыл бұрын
Luck is hype, long-term strategies (often stall) is not. One of these is more spectator-friendly than the other. But the less luck-based meta is superior, regardless of what spectators think.
@user-wg8nb2uj8y2 жыл бұрын
@@crazycoolkids00 found the stall player
@purpleenthusiast58142 жыл бұрын
"But the less luck-based meta is superior, regardless of what spectators think."🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
@skateboardmd91632 жыл бұрын
@@purpleenthusiast5814 I mean that's always a given. Having skill and actually knowing what you're doing is sick, but it doesn't change the fact that it's unmarketable and boring sadly.
@purpleenthusiast58142 жыл бұрын
@@skateboardmd9163 I don't actually think that, I was making fun of the guy above, lol. Sorry for not putting quotation marks
@theimpersonator70862 жыл бұрын
I really didn't like double battles at all when I started playing Pokemon, but playing through Gale of Darkness did give me an apprecitation of them. Shoutouts to Rylee the Jolteon for being such a good support mon with Helping Hand, Fast T-Wave, Protect and Thunder. Still prefer Singles by a long shot, but another game like the GC Pokemon games would be cool Also, the devs need to nerf the hell out of Regenerator
@SpectreXS2 жыл бұрын
I've played Colo and XD for the first time last year and I wish all the games were doubles-only. It gives more meaning to making storyline teams, rather than knowing you can plow through most of the game with your 1-of main.
@theimpersonator70862 жыл бұрын
@@SpectreXS Eh, I still don't think XD was that hard at all and not harder than a normal pokemon game. Pokemon has so many options due to its very nature that you can easily find and use some really broken and dumb stuff if you want. Think the only time in XD I had anything resembling diffuctly was the very last Mirror B fight and I didn't even grind at all If you want to make hard Pokemon games you really have to go down the Drayano rom hack route.
@SunsetInStone2 жыл бұрын
Regen itself isn't the issue. It's that they keep distributing it and allowing more cores to be built with it. Slowking-Galar, for example, should just not exist.
@twinleadersx81792 жыл бұрын
You think Doubles is crazy? What till you see what some youtubers have done with Triples! (Granted, it's ORAS, but still)
@alexisdipoalo94432 жыл бұрын
Its not for everyone
@doopness7852 жыл бұрын
Doubles VGC format average number of turns per game 9. Smogon singles format average number of turns per game 72. I wonder which is more exciting to watch.
@The_Pikaboi6 күн бұрын
Yeah but also people watch cricket instead of football
@bmac42 жыл бұрын
This is why Ubers metas tend to be some of my favorite. The power level is so high that bulky Pokemon have to be used more carefully matches take considerably fewer turns than Gen 7 OU.
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
Play gen 7 ubers
@halfpace1462Ай бұрын
Depends on the gen, gen 1 ubers is hilarious and its just PP stalling hell cause the entire game revolves around mewtwo. Half the matches are decided by a mewtwo ditto its insanely funny
@SpectreXS2 жыл бұрын
Unfortunately this is the main issue with Singles formats: there's too much room for total BS such as stalls or setups. Add that to 6v6, it makes unviable for a live tournament setting. VGC has its flaws, but for the amount of BS allowed in its formats due to no tiered banlist (such as zacian-c in this format), it flows surprisingly well. Team preview bring 4 of 6 yields a good best-of-3 format that doesn't even go to time often.
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
there being "too much room" for stall is a pretty big misconception, because stall really isn't that good in most tiers. truthfully, bulky offense and balance, which provide a medium of both offensive prowess and defensive counterplay to thrive, are typically what's best. there's obviously going to be a difference when you don't bring a full party of 6 to a game, as well. just like how in bss, having only 3 pokemon makes the single battles much faster. however, this also makes it so that one simple mistake or one unlucky turn can snowball into an instant loss.
@MrCheeze2 жыл бұрын
3-of-6 is the official singles format, it surprises me that it gets essentially zero attention compared to 4-of-6 doubles and 6-of-6 singles.
@ScaredEz2 жыл бұрын
These aren’t even stall teams, they’re just typical OU balance teams with Clefable, Toxapex, Ferrothorn core
@yonatanbeer34752 жыл бұрын
@@MrCheeze apparently bss is a lot more popular in Japan
@harpot6782 жыл бұрын
@@MrCheeze I have a theory that Pokemon wanted to try to make singles competitive work, but don't want long sets so it works better in a tournament scheduling setting, but since nobody cares about their proposed format they just gave up. The shorter timer in SwSh is to try to push the community to the format that fits the timer, but instead they just complained about 6v6 taking too long for the timer.
@robertlupa82732 жыл бұрын
I was going to say "couldn't the same situation happen in VGC", but then I realised one is a single battle, one is a double battle. Explains why there's no 'pex in VGC.
@coqui98792 жыл бұрын
Yeah pex sucks in vgc because you can just ignore it and kill the rest of its team first
@InciniumVGC2 жыл бұрын
Most battles in VGC are like 8 turns long.
@niar17262 жыл бұрын
There's also a strict time limit in vgc
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
If your a bad guy you can make a good stall team in vgc
@jodgemoot2 жыл бұрын
Dude aaron hitting the double protect into miss was fucking insane, i dont even play vgc i just randomly tuned in and witnessed a legendary moment
@soniablanche56722 жыл бұрын
yeah watching a literal flip coin is so exciting
@malareon2 жыл бұрын
it kinda makes vgc feel sacky in my eyes but that's just me.
@selearth31232 жыл бұрын
yahoo he rolled some dice and got the low% outcome. exhilirating.
@jodgemoot2 жыл бұрын
holy shit i hate pokemon players
@harpot6782 жыл бұрын
@@selearth3123 Why do people get excited for what happens in a movie? it's already a set outcome, and there are 0 stakes. shut up don't make fun of people getting excited for something
@Mangoscats2 жыл бұрын
I’m a vgc player but I still love your content and learning stuff about 1v1
@CC-to1vr2 жыл бұрын
1v1 or 6v6 ?
@sumansaxena22772 жыл бұрын
@@CC-to1vr 1v1 means 1 pokemon versus 1 opposing pokemon
@3rajab2 жыл бұрын
Same here
@copenwiththestress37322 жыл бұрын
*shows balance vs balance* Freezai watchers: is this stall?
@pitdarkangel29612 жыл бұрын
Real OGs roast their own format
@VJ-Vice2 жыл бұрын
God I love VGC. It's so complex and the push and pull of offense and defense is so compelling
@jaydeeq27310 ай бұрын
optimal singles is just the most boring stall matches
@lexaray57 ай бұрын
@@jaydeeq273*optimal singles under an arbitrarily restricted ruleset
@halfpace1462Ай бұрын
@jaydeeq273 stall isnt optimal for the vast majority of metas tho... people CHOOSE to play stall because its an option, its almost never the best team or strategy. The difference is that, in many situations, uou can end up in a "locked" position where youre forced to pp stall. That happens sometimes but 7 times out of 10 stall is kinda doo doo Id say the only gen where stall is legit the meta is generation 2. That gen is notorious for games lasting 140 turns easily but faster oaced gens like the beautiful gen 3 and gen 1, 4, 5 even 6 are far more fast paced.
@ReshiramEighteen2 жыл бұрын
VGC: OMG DOUBLE PROTECT POGGERS THE GAME IS SAVED SPL: so we have ourselves a run of the mill 1v1 pp stall war between Leo’s Pex and suapah’s Clef. Clef has the speed advantage here but its Knock Offs are only doing minimal damage that Pex can easily heal back on switch out, meanwhile Pex is content to spam click Haze having gotten the scald burn going on Clef
@OsomeOli2 жыл бұрын
First sounds way more interesting
@siddharthnandi39952 жыл бұрын
Stall Wars are really uncommon in singles rn. That match was the exception, not the norm.
@anythingarax2 жыл бұрын
Hey now, this is more a result of years of stall mechanics piling on top of each other, singles is pretty fun still
@purplereign24102 жыл бұрын
singles has always been and always will be the slower format. Stall will always exist in singles.
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
stall will always EXIST but in most metagames it's far from the best playstyle. infact, in tiers like zu, it's borderline unviable. the reality is that the most viable singles teams are bulky offense / balance, which is the same for vgc
@vengefulbale2 жыл бұрын
Also in Doubles, it's far easier to gang up on the strong mons/stall mons first then snowball afterwards
@alibaba35682 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom In my experience (Gen 7 OU), stall can be very deadly if your team lacks some proper answers
@thomass.40072 жыл бұрын
@@vengefulbale stall mons first? I believe the opposite, in doubles theres the ‘all my friends are dead syndrome’, which means that many stall mons can be completely ignored while the offensive ally is ganged up on, until theres only the stall mon left against 2 or more opponents, which makes many stall mons less viable
@DrDrao2 жыл бұрын
VGC is fun to watch, but I would never play it. Singles is fun to play, but some matches are unwatchable
@onadaTotihotiH2 жыл бұрын
Stuff like this is why I really hope we get another game that’s largely focused on double battles like Colosseum and XD were at some point down the line. There’s so many interesting strategies that would make the mainline games more interesting if they had more than like 10 double battles with random NPCs in the entire game, excluding the (not) Battle Tower. Would also give those Pokémon that learn a few moves that only work in doubles (e.g. Helping Hand) via level up or have abilities that interact with doubles (Telepathy) a bit more to work with.
@givecamichips2 жыл бұрын
VGC is a really good format, I'm glad that's the official one because otherwise doubles would probably be even less popular
@jerrysandoval200111 ай бұрын
@@eidkristo6107It's not. In every country vgc will be the official format cause TPC says so lol.
@TempestDacine2 жыл бұрын
Both styles are great and have their pros and cons, but yeah stall wars arn't that fun to watch lmao.
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
Cqn wee talk pls
@pill66422 жыл бұрын
Seeing both Pex and Clef run out of PP is hilarious
@user-lq4ct6dr5m Жыл бұрын
Imagine one day in VGC both players brought their double stall and stall out each other live
@lillieofthevlly2 жыл бұрын
"um, these teams arent even stall teams" THAT MAKES IT WORSE LMAO
@nicolaistuhlmuller87182 жыл бұрын
tbh even vgc matches can end on two supporters pp stalling each other, and they are definitely not stall teams
@lillieofthevlly2 жыл бұрын
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 i legitimately dont think ive ever seen that. it's possible, but support pokemon are so much more vulnerable. they often dont run healing moves like singles supports often do, so one of them just dies because they need to have a damaging move to even get to that situation excluding even rarer circumstances.
@nicolaistuhlmuller87182 жыл бұрын
@@lillieofthevlly especially in gen7 this actually happened pretty often, where supporters like cresselia, porygon2 or gastrodon always had recovery moves. A game ending on cresselia vs. gastrodon for example was bound to go into the 50ies turn wise (or into timeout on console). Icy Wind Cresselia vs. Giga Drain Amoonguss too, or any supporter vs. Porygon2. In a porygon2 vs cresselia it often boiled down to whether porygon2 can get a status condition on cresselia.
@lillieofthevlly2 жыл бұрын
@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 still even in metas where it is more likely it requires a much more specific scenario than singles for both support pokemon to survive that long and probably isnt gonna be more than stalling out 10 recover pp anyways. oh yea and the game timer makes the whole thing different and less likely as well. in vgc pp stalling will almost never have to finish, just start and then the clock will run out. big difference i think.
@prasannashetty9652 жыл бұрын
This video just propagates the myth that Smogon loves stall when in reality it's been the worst since Gen 5. Also people are misunderstanding Balance teams as Stall.
@1snivy102 жыл бұрын
"Anything that isn't hyper offense is stall"
@bookedroomer2 жыл бұрын
fr this is some anti smogon propaganda shit lmao
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
if I can't 1 shot everything then you're stall, seems to be peoples idea.
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
it sucks so hard that people like verlisify were successfully able to push false narratives to completely neuter the reputation of smogon, even though stall isn't even good most of the time
@skullerclawerbandicoot79662 жыл бұрын
I never even had the idea Smogon loves stall, I honestly just hate stall all together. I dont have a problem with bulky teams as I have a few but pure stall just bores me more than being in church
@MoxieBoosted2 жыл бұрын
Let's go VGC
@coletonmarino131011 ай бұрын
Didnt expect to see you here lmao
@RickRaptor1052 жыл бұрын
I was expecting the Smogon version to show someone failing the double Protect
@Zenithal18432 жыл бұрын
Stall is obviously obnoxious but I’d much rather play Singles than play Doubles.
@Kraut1082 жыл бұрын
And this is why vgc is the official format lol.
@goGothitaLOL2 жыл бұрын
Speaking of Smogon vs. VGC, you should consider a video about "Pokemon that are better in doubles than singles and vice-versa" (Yes, i know WolfeyVGC and PokeAdm done it first, but i would like for you to do it) Singles/Smogon OU: Clefable Dugtrio Slowbro Cloyster Gengar Chansey and Blissey Quagsire Skarmory Scizor (at least nowadays since Gen 7) Swampert (at least nowadays in Gen 8, without megas) Weavile Pelipper Hydreigon (in Gen 8) Tornadus-T Thundurus-T Tapu Koko (in Gen 8) Tapu Lele (in Gen 8) Toxapex Cinderace Corviknight Barraskewda Dracovish Galarian Darmanitan Galarian Slowking Mega Charizard X Mega Sableye Mega Lopunny, Pinsir, Mawile, Gallade (only because Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, and Mega Metagross are all banned there..........in PokemonShowdown OU) Mega Gengar Doubles/VGC: Incineroar Regieleki Grimmsnarl Whimiscott Tornadus-I Indeedee-F Torkoal Venusaur The other 2 Kanto Starters (when there's Dynamax) Amoonguss Gastrodon Glastrier Nihilego Stakataka Lapras (as long as there's Dynamax) Politoed Kingdra Regigigas/Slaking and Galarian Weezing Togekiss Tsareena (as long as there's no dynamax) Hitmontop (look above) Clefairy Dusclops Porygon2 Raichu Kingdra Talonflame (after the Gale Wings nerfs) Meinshao (whenever they ban Dynamax in Gen 8) Ferrothorn and Dragapult serve different roles depending on format, and Mamoswine runs Thick Fat in singles and Obvlious (now that it blocks Intimidate) in doubles
@roccotopliff48432 жыл бұрын
Barraskewda has gotten some usage in high level vgc recently but from my understanding still a lot better in singles p
@AuroraBoost2 жыл бұрын
@@roccotopliff4843 You're right. That thing on Rain teams is an absolute monster.
@ShortT-RexLikeArms2 жыл бұрын
Tbf VGC is more lax when it come to restrictions. While Ubers allow more variations in teams it also makes stall very effective as hard hitters tend to get banned.
@TheGuyWhoIsSitting2 жыл бұрын
“It’s a bit of a stalemate”
@ayayafanfan2 жыл бұрын
this says a lot about our society
@xoopmax2 жыл бұрын
I wonder what a singles meta without transfer moves would look like.
@GravityIsFalling2 жыл бұрын
Personally think It’ll be way better
@1snivy102 жыл бұрын
What's a transfer move
@GravityIsFalling2 жыл бұрын
@@1snivy10 A move learned in a previous generation In VGC transfers aren’t allow so lando for example doesn’t have defog In singles it is allowed so lando does have defog
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
unbearably stale.
@HowlingOneify2 жыл бұрын
@@GravityIsFalling it isn't. Pre home was a no transfer moves meta and it was AWFUL.
@LuDogg8052 жыл бұрын
I love doubles better because more Pokemon are viable... switching in or out, isn't as punishable, and more moves + Pokemon are viable/legal... singles feels like a constant prediction game, and a bad prediction or unlucky RNG is too punishing. It's also more campier and viability is way more strict. More items start to become more of a necessity, like choiced items. Yeah singles is too linear.
@nerdstop50252 жыл бұрын
"More pokemon are viable" "viability is strict" Which one is it? You can't both have more pokemon being viable and viability being strict
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
Agreed
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
Plus people usualy make smogon look bad on purpse but let me introduce you too dynamax
@beta511ee42 жыл бұрын
@@nerdstop5025 They were talking about two different formats. Read more carefully and you’ll see there’s no contradiction.
@nerdstop50252 жыл бұрын
@@beta511ee4 oh whoops, yeah that's my bad, I was reading the comment too fast and singles was lowercase and I guess my brain skipped over it. I still disagree with the statement because in VGC more pokemon aren't really that much more viable, or if there is, it's because there are threats, the counters to those threats, the counters to the counters, and then the original threat which counters the counters counters. VGC just takes shorter because of 2 mons being sent out at the same time and singles you have 5 pokemon to fall back on. It's like playing Anything Goes, but doubles and you only get 4 mons and 1 of each item.
@milliondollarmistake2 жыл бұрын
God PP stalling has got to be the fucking worst thing to ever play as or fight against. Burning up to a max of 64 turns on a single move with a single Pokemon? Why isn't there something in place similar to sleep clause?
@freezerman71092 жыл бұрын
Okay so the SPL game is a tiebreaker and if anyone makes an unnecessary play, if they lose their team doesn't make finals and due to these stakes no one switched.
@patrickstar81322 жыл бұрын
Look, I get it. Stall is annoying and at times absolutely unbearable to play against. **BUT** Please stop saying this is Stall Vs Stall or that smogon promotes stall. This is a balance vs balance match up and a situation which honestly didn't even have to occur when the clef user had 6 mons and effective ways to pressure pex. Hell, stall isn't even that dominant in the meta, it's Bulky offense or balance teams.
@kirbycommon75702 жыл бұрын
Why did the clef not switch out btw to like koko?
@patrickstar81322 жыл бұрын
@@kirbycommon7570 PP stalling was a more safe play to not risk chip or toxic on Koko, but honestly I feel that someone would only really do this because it's a high stakes tourney. Most would just go Koko, especially if this was just a typical ladder game.
@kirbycommon75702 жыл бұрын
@@patrickstar8132 True. But I think most of the mons would get hit too hard anyways so I guess it was the pressure.
@beta511ee42 жыл бұрын
@@patrickstar8132 How do you differentiate between balance and stall?
@patrickstar81322 жыл бұрын
@@beta511ee4 Balance has a mix of defensive and offensive pokemon. Look at suapah's team. It has three offensive mons (assuming lando is defensive) Koko, Weavile, Dnite. Leo has zapdos (a mix of defensive/offensive) hydreigon and zera. Stall on the other hand, goes full on defensive. It usually has wincons (i.e. CM unaware clef, Iron defense Skarm, etc.) but at its core it's focused on defensive play and wearing down the opposition with passive damage (burn, toxic, hazards) while denying opposing passive damage (heal bell to cure status, Mega sableye to deny hazards/taunt, defog to remove hazards) This is an example of a full on stall team (not mine, and outdated, but for the most part this is how a stall team would look like) pokepast.es/dd65e62f177d8ade
@kerbonaut20592 жыл бұрын
Okay everyone, say it with me... SMOGON LOVES STALL
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
National dex ag lmao
@detox29312 жыл бұрын
Yeah I love smogon ruleset a ton, and enjoy playing it a hell of a lot more than VGC, but in high stakes games like this, it would be super boring to watch as a spectator. I can see the appeal in VGC!
@Oscar_Cortes2 жыл бұрын
*Cricket chirps the moment the Smogon segment of the video started*
@fen_u94012 жыл бұрын
kinda accurate but most importantly, kinda funny😀
@Emmanuel-vv9lm2 жыл бұрын
Cant lie i dont even play vgc a lot but it’s much more fun to watch
@outspade2 жыл бұрын
all this time i thought double protect was 50% and it halved every consecutive use how long have i been wrong for yeesh
@Zeo--2 жыл бұрын
Detect does that but has less PP
@GKplus83 ай бұрын
technically it's 1/(3^x) chance, with x being the number of prior consecutive uses. so the chances go 1, 1/3, 1/9, 1/27, 1/81, etc. Gens 5 and earlier did do it by halving, but with particular weird edge cases because of classic gamefreak programming
@alexisdipoalo94432 жыл бұрын
Tbh I kinda agree here. Admitly I'm not helping as I only use stall within smogons formats due to the restrictions on offense
@Loris717342 жыл бұрын
It’s funny everybody is saying it’s stall and smogon loves stall when stall is literally not good this gen and the only reason they are pp stalling is simply none of Leo’s Pokémon can switch into and beat clefable and suapah shouldn’t risk switching an offensive Pokémon into a potential scald burn when they’re already on the way to victory. Your channel is usually very informative and high quality so it’s surprising to see a video that propagates a very clearly false myth that smogon is stally and caters to stall. Even if it’s just a joke video look at the comment section
@purplereign24102 жыл бұрын
stall isn't good rn, but this just shows that even while stall is bad, singles still has times that are incredibly boring to watch with PP stalling. VGC is the more fun viewing experience, cope more bro
@HotFootBunny2 жыл бұрын
Ou cater to stall dude, and from a spectator point of view this is boring as shit, and its the ou counsel fault, out of of all the counsels OU's is the worst for me
@gh0rochi3632 жыл бұрын
It’s a joke bro chill. He saw a funny situation and made a video to make a joke. Stall does happen in smogon sure but those who play it know not every gane is like this. 99% of the battles aren’t like this.
@nimroddafny71252 жыл бұрын
Considering that he plays singles competitively I'm 99% sure that this isn't meant to be taken seriously (I agree about your notion regarding the comment section tho).
@Dexuz2 жыл бұрын
Irrelevant, the point is to show the stall moment of the match, an event that would be impossible in doubles.
@Aman-og9pw2 жыл бұрын
The s in smogon stands for stall
@siddharthnandi39952 жыл бұрын
Thise were two Balance teams, not stall.
@HenryZhoupokemon2 жыл бұрын
Idk if it’s just me but I actually prefer singles where the games are longer and less volatile. I guess it’s similar to why some people like playing/watching classical chess over rapid and blitz
@jos70062 жыл бұрын
This
@mcgoldenblade47652 жыл бұрын
You could argue this is a case of cherry picking. VGC still has its fair share of lameness. But yeah stall in singles can get pretty bad
@eidkristo61072 жыл бұрын
Just learn how to play singles
@stoicauritra71472 жыл бұрын
Those who witness that live are the part of history
@MatoVidovic_2 жыл бұрын
An epic red theme would have been perfect to illustrate the mastery that those haze spam took.
@prajwalkhokale6742 Жыл бұрын
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do
@tomfoolery82382 жыл бұрын
I am primarily a VGC player, but I wish Singles got more love (like with Pokeaim and other singles content creators asking for a removal/option of the in-game timer). But, could anyone REALLY sit and watch the animations of 30 Hazes and a Clef spamming Knock off on Toxapex for 3% damage and failing to use Stealth Rock just stall out PP??? Dynamax was probably made to cater to E-Sport viewership and 6v6 Singles would just be plain boring to watch. I hope Gen 9 gives both VGC and Singles player much love in terms of gameplay (remove Dynamax, hopefully bring back and rebalance Megas and low-tier/unuseable mons), QoL, and a much more fun game to watch and build a competitive community based on the premise of strategy and not cheese.
@grunkleg.31102 жыл бұрын
Honestly, I think some of this could be solved by giving defensive moves less PP. Haze has 48 PP or so with 3 PP maxes, meaning something like Toxapex can just repeatedly click Haze on anything trying to set up. But what if it only had 10 base PP? Would you still click Haze every chance you got? And Knock Off too. Not only does it pretty much invalidate every other physical Dark-type move on offensive Mons, defensively, it's another easily spammable move. But what if it only had 5 base PP? Then again, let's not pretend that sitting there and setting up Swords Dances or Nasty Plots isn't also very boring. Those moves could also do with some nerfs to their PP. It's kinda weird, Emerald Kaizo is genuinely kind of an amazing spectator sport, and that game also has a lot of what I'm talking about
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
this isn't like super common, I enjoy stall. also stall isn't cheese, and cheese is way more fun than having the same 10-20 pokemon in every team.
@crazycoolkids002 жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 ↑ This.
@harpot6782 жыл бұрын
If Singles didn't adopt a format that takes ages to complete a single game, they would have had a better chance at getting more love from the company. Tournament schedules would be viable, and as it is currently, even if the Pokemon company wanted to adopt a singles format, they woudln't be able to make the community accepted format work
@tomfoolery82382 жыл бұрын
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Sorry, I did not mean that Stall is cheese or did not intend to imply that. I recognize Stall as a team composition/strategy. I actually meant to imply Dynamax as cheese. I like Dynamax for VGC, but overall it is not a healthy mechanic for BOTH VGC and Singles.
@quiche64002 жыл бұрын
I still prefer Singles :D and wish there was a big competition level like vgc to it
@MK_ULTRA4202 жыл бұрын
It takes too long, especially when it's best 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 5.
@harpot6782 жыл бұрын
if Pokemon were to ever adopt singles format, it would be best of 3, pick 3 from 6, a format that the community has rejected.
@GravityIsFalling2 жыл бұрын
I like singles but VGC should never become single battles
@hokostudios2 жыл бұрын
Thought this was going to be a proper discussion comparing the two, but didn't notice this was only 43 seconds lol. (Tbf though, I do think a comparison of BSS against comparable Smogon formats would be more interesting than VGC against Smogon.)
@SAYM3DIC2 жыл бұрын
I'm so glad the VGC rules are what they are, singles just doesn't hit the same way
@metawolf987 Жыл бұрын
Singles is not the problem, Smogon is the problem. No rational person in real life would want to engage in a battle like that, even if they are playing Singles. Smogon's stall loving meta is sustained by individuals who have far too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.
@pikachuchujelly76289 ай бұрын
@@metawolf987 I think a lot of it has to do with the faster pace that Pokemon Showdown runs at. Stall tactics on Showdown take less real world time, so people there are more inclined to use them.
@SolarityVision2 жыл бұрын
Y’all in the comments really pressed over this vid need to learn how to take a joke
@franko15972 жыл бұрын
It's not Smogon, it's singles overall (including battles in consoles).
@galibrabat42372 жыл бұрын
I'm glad VGC wasn't roasted, it's my life xD
@shnobby35472 жыл бұрын
It's funny. I've never played comp pokemon, but I started watching vgc doubles and then only later started watching smogon singles. I'm gonna go against the grain here, but I've found smogon singles to be more entertaining and it made me realize that I actually really hate seeing a protect go off nearly every turn. I havent watched much vgc since.
@crazycoolkids002 жыл бұрын
Yeah, I feel the same. Singles are more skill-based long-term chess-ish stratagems, which usually leads to less spectator-friendly games because everything follows a pattern (vs the luck of hitting double-protect into miss that makes for a hype game, but is hardly skill-based). Some things are just gonna please the viewer more than others. But I also watch competitive chess, soooo…
@kingwinifred43932 жыл бұрын
i would like vgc so much more without fake out and protect, so many moves are used to stop the use of moves it's lame
@harpot6782 жыл бұрын
@@kingwinifred4393 Fake out I can sort of get, a little too much reward for leading, positioning, protect is such an important defensive option, integral to the sustainability of VGC as a format lol
@ohnoo44682 жыл бұрын
@@harpot678 seriously, games are already insanely fast in vgc. Without protect it’d be even faster
@kingwinifred43932 жыл бұрын
@@harpot678 oh it's definitely not bad for the metagame, but it's incredibly unfun imo.
@vigorouspringle89622 жыл бұрын
After watching all these Nuzlocke runs of ROM hacks I find myself enjoying Doubles way more than Singles If there's any Rom hack that are basically Doubles only I'd love to know about them
@Bullet76_2 жыл бұрын
you can always join a romhack discord and ask could maybe even make ya own
@Redthewolf20122 жыл бұрын
Pokemon Double Emerald. Gen 8 mechs too (special/phys split, speed recalc, typings, etc)
@vigorouspringle89622 жыл бұрын
@@Redthewolf2012 Couple hours later this Double Emerald is fucking fun thank you for informing me of this
@kassygo13752 жыл бұрын
Singles still awesome tho
@viniciusbatista1462 жыл бұрын
This remember me that melee tournament were a puff and ices player stare each other for 7 minutes and tie
@pyranitar2 жыл бұрын
Smogon should have a turn clause or something where if you’re pokemon is on the field for too many turns they should just die this stall shit is going too far.
@Dexuz2 жыл бұрын
Hmm... I suppose it could be a sort of "PP clause", to simply accelerate the Struggle fight.
@pyranitar2 жыл бұрын
@@Dexuz Probably a more fair and less polarizing clause, but pokemon just fucking dying is funnier.
@phillipanselmo85402 жыл бұрын
we've tried implementing chess rules into pokemon before and it didn't go well
@pyranitar2 жыл бұрын
@@phillipanselmo8540 Idk about chess bro I just want a stop being a bitch clause.
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
stall is literally not that good in most smogon tiers right now. the stall shit is not "out of hand", not even remotely
@mikewehr78872 жыл бұрын
Sometimes you gotta pp stall to remove a threat because it's the safest option
@kimjonguninstall62792 жыл бұрын
everyone say it with me. Smogon loves stall!
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
i know you're joking, but like, smogon doesn't love stall lmao stall isn't even that good in most tiers
@kimjonguninstall62792 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom You think I'm joking?
@skullerclawerbandicoot79662 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom This dude has Kim Jong Un as his pfp, automatically classified as a troll
@wailmoregd1402 жыл бұрын
And with this acquired info, nerf stall to shit
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
stall isn't even that good in single battles. the two teams in the smogon video weren't even stall either, it was just one bad situation ripped out of context to push this false narrative that "smogon loves stall"
@ogeid7722 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom i would argue that if THAT happened in a match where neither player is playing stall teams, that's all the more reason to nerf the more stall-y aspects of the format, but i dont really play smogon singles and i'm just reacting to what i saw, so feel free to disregard me
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
@@ogeid772 that type of situation wasn't even necessary, because the clefable user was up with all 6 mons and had multiple pokemon to threaten both pex and its teammates. it's just a crappy situation that got ripped out of context, nothing more, nothing less
@azu13942 жыл бұрын
id ask this over anything else, why is defensive play in a game you dont play bad?
@N12015 Жыл бұрын
Wish accomplished. Now they put a bit too much spikes.
@Ehan072 жыл бұрын
Yessir I do love that stall
@serpentmaster13232 жыл бұрын
Vgc is just so much more interesting to me. Singles just feels so telegraphed that random singles battles and other metagames are just more entertaining.
@MrCheeze2 жыл бұрын
Do you only play singles yourself? Because if not, there should be a lot of interesting stuff to talk about in terms of VGC/DOubles formats.
@user-lq4ct6dr5m Жыл бұрын
Double format is a lot fun, but I think singles is where the best part of Pokémon comes into play, and tests the players to their limit Beside stall, fuck stall
@x10creeper522 жыл бұрын
0:38 omg I want that kurisu skin so bad
@duelz936619 күн бұрын
Singles 6v6 is where it’s at
@bimgus58082 жыл бұрын
We all know the best format is the G e n 7 B a t t l e R o y a l mode found in (obviously) gen 7 of Pokemon.
@thedetectove2 жыл бұрын
Found a guy who had barely played vgc and played lots of smogon. Used a standard vgc rain team that was clearly copy and pasted. Let’s say he found the difference really quickly.
@eliyaskiya2 жыл бұрын
Don't be surprised. Smogon loves stall
@gligurr2 жыл бұрын
>zacian on the screen yeah, ill take smogon
@jordanjones41442 жыл бұрын
the showdown part was so quiet I could literally hear my cereal moving around in the milk in the background
@piemanlee44202 жыл бұрын
I hope you start doing doubles content. Either VGC or just doubles OU. Way more interesting than singles imo
@RinaShinomiyaVal2 жыл бұрын
Where only HO is viable? Nah
@Redthewolf20122 жыл бұрын
@@RinaShinomiyaVal reminder that Pachirisu was world champ. Anything is viable in VGC, if you're good at the game lol
@roccotopliff48432 жыл бұрын
@@Redthewolf2012 tbf mega garaydos was more unexpected than it. Aaron and wolfey tested it before worlds
@selearth31232 жыл бұрын
@@Redthewolf2012 "pachirisu was world champ" as the argument for anything being viable LMAOOOOOOOOOOO you're smoking top shelf boof
@skullerclawerbandicoot79662 жыл бұрын
@@roccotopliff4843 How? It gets better stats. Pachi just sucks normally
@Wadosan2 жыл бұрын
I’m so glad little cup exists
@NoobMaster-px1ic2 жыл бұрын
how tf does that showdown user have a steins gate avatar lmao
@franko15972 жыл бұрын
Custom avatar.
@NoobMaster-px1ic2 жыл бұрын
@@franko1597 i didn't know custom avatars could be anything. I thought it had to be pokemon-related (like freezai's avatar)
@blakegroves64412 жыл бұрын
showdown doubles, best of both worlds, more reasonable power but no singes stall.
@USPSArtoria2 жыл бұрын
I got major WOMBO COMBO VIBES from this video 😂😂😂😂😂
@jamesprumos7775 Жыл бұрын
This is why when the first tournaments happened back in the 90s, they instituted the "bring 6 choose 3" rule, cuz they knew how long the games would be if they didn't.
@emiandnues2 жыл бұрын
Smogon's inability to sanction defensive play for quality of life reasons is the biggest culprit here. One of the reasons VGC is more "fun" is because they don't allow for transfer moves (and that happened bc of Thundy-T in the 2012 vgc season). Smogon should consider this, Knock Off/Toxic and other support moves would be WAY less broken and it would also de-power creep
@internetrandodotcom2 жыл бұрын
the reality is that when smogon bans overpowered breakers, it makes extreme playstyles (hyper offense AND stall) worse. when an overpowered breaker is in a metagame, the only way to *defensively* check that breaker is to stack defensive pokemon on a team. banning an overpwoered wallbreaker thus leaves more room to build around offensive/utility mons, rather than stacking walls on top of each other. this lets balanced teams and bulky offense teams shine, letting players more easily build creative teams. so, smogon does sanction defensive play also, stall is literally not that good in most tiers in gen 8 right now. and especially in tiers like zu, it's completely unviable.
@emiandnues2 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom that's true, but I wasn't speaking about stall specifically, just defensive play. A lot of mons in gen 8 have a moveset comprised of a lot of moves they don't get in gen 8. Teams have to counterplay toxic, knock off and teleport way more bc of this. This paired with an ever growing list of defensive mechanics (boots, regenerator, terrains, flip turn/teleport, etc.) make the game less fun
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
who's quality of life? those sound like terrible changes.
@emiandnues2 жыл бұрын
@@internetrandodotcom just wait for gen 8 wish+scald+toxic flip turn mola. Sure, we can deal with it, but at what cost?
@wesleywyndam-pryce53052 жыл бұрын
@@emiandnues as for your second comment, no. it might be less fun to you but then go play vgc or something.
@BestgirlJordanfish2 жыл бұрын
Honestly, like... valid. I appreciate smogon a lot, but damn I don't enjoy the singles
@brunolinares6042 жыл бұрын
What a legend
@raresuwako67962 жыл бұрын
“Professionals have standards”
@ryansoltner52292 жыл бұрын
i wish i had seen that set, i managed to catch the finals but that match seemed to be the highlight of the event
@thepotato5132 жыл бұрын
Now we need a clip of Wolfe Glick using the team that was designed to stall for time with long animations
@marioruiz57582 жыл бұрын
Yup. This is the reason I play vgc.
@anthonyk39522 жыл бұрын
Anyone mind telling me what the purpose of hazing and soft boiling every turn was? Is Stored Power Clefable THAT threatening? And do you need the burn heal THAT badly against a switch in?
@riccardoredigolo78022 жыл бұрын
I think it was an instance of PP stall
@clarambrosia98342 жыл бұрын
pp stall
@azu13942 жыл бұрын
clefable has done everything it needs to, so suapah was staying in to waste pp from the pex, leo seems to want to keep the threat of toxic’ing the koko by keeping pex in, as clefable doesnt threaten it
@the_cool_j_74942 жыл бұрын
VGC is kinda fire though, I love doubles
@backpackerraden62682 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the laugh. Keep up the great content
@Pine.appl.e2 жыл бұрын
And this is why I like to play VGC more
@jzwizzles87952 жыл бұрын
That VGC Match was Crazy
@KobeLoverTatum2 жыл бұрын
Seems like its more about the specific format of singles vs doubles and also having a live audience then.
@123Todayy2 жыл бұрын
Say the mantra: "Smogon loves stall"
@Spyko-2 жыл бұрын
to be fair I think a match being won on a double protect also feel like BS
@rifasclub2 жыл бұрын
No one is talking about balance, but Smoogon is just boring.
@mistake11972 жыл бұрын
@@rifasclub opinion
@exaunitive49482 жыл бұрын
@@rifasclub Smogon ou?yes can be boring but Smogon lower tiers are fun
@LnnyOsoTo2 жыл бұрын
The faster nature of VGC means that winning on luck is more common. A phrase commonly repeated in VGC commentary is "When there's a Rock Slide there's a way".
@mistake11972 жыл бұрын
@@exaunitive4948 unofficial tiers are way better. Stuff like nat dex and free for all and even random battle come to mind.