VGC vs Smogon

Salt Lake Regionals was happening the same time as Smogon Premier League Semifinals Tiebreaker
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[@camoking3609]

VGC Players on turn 20: "dang that a was a long game" Smogon Players on turn 142:

[@eidkristo6107]

I can sdly relqte

[@eidkristo6107]

I use stall btw

[@pokepenguin144]

@@eidkristo6107 bad person

[@OmolonFluidDynamicsEnjoyer]

Smogon players on turn 210,023,428,910,345,853,385,672,302,874: "That game ended quick damn. Real great play on turn 310,227,485,786,578,265 though. And that predict on turn 1,234,567,890 was just insane gg"

[@Alvionalx]

@@eidkristo6107 stall is poop

[@Shyguymask]

I thought you were going to roast VGC, not the other way around 😂

[@personunnamedREAL]

Oh hey look it’s that checkmark guy that I only learned the existence of through that plants vs. zombies vs. mode tournament video danerade made Or would you prefer it if I just said “hi shyguymask”

[@tobigrantlbart]

I came to the conclusion by playing different format. VGC is actually pretty fun. The 4 Pokémon Limit makes you wonder what Pokémon your opponent takes into battle, and double mechanics are often more interesting.

[@gusthavo15yearsand98]

I thought you were going to start posting in your channel

[@Astra.d2]

woah it’s my favorite person to see in the terraria forums

[@TheLudicrousLuv]

Same

[@qedsoku849]

I have won a 700+ turn game that I was planning on winning by pp stalling, but eventually my opponent didn’t notice a future sight and their toxapex died

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

I made a pp stall team, people just quit when the noticed though. never played a full game.

[@skinnysnorlax1876]

Using human fatigue to bait out mistakes is a viable strategy, tho cans of redbull are being suspect tested as they may be "op".

[@tomnuke9122]

Christ, that sounds miserable for both sides involved. I hope you had an autoclicker.

[@robinsimon4176]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 considering "playing" includes having fun. cuz that is what a game is abt. pp stall teams are the opposite of fun, so you never really played any game with that team

[@meatvortexgaming7134]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 theres a special spot in hell for people like you

[@inazumatan7050]

If the VGC thing happened on Smogon: “Unfortunate does not begin to describe…”

[@artemissrijan473]

Ahhh this golden ragequit

[@yonatanbeer3475]

Man, Aaron really had a 3% chance of winning and still took the W

[@AshenDust_]

Double protect is 33%, not 3%

[@habels8478]

@@AshenDust_ Play Rough miss is calculated in there too!

[@phillipanselmo8540]

if you ever tried to get a double protect you'd know it's actually 3%

[@yonatanbeer3475]

@@AshenDust_ you don't see it in the clip I think, but Aaron also needed a play rough miss to get the water spout kill

[@user-eu6sj2gj1t]

Origin pulse + Double Protect + Play rough miss = 0.85*0.33*0.1 = 0.02805. So yes, 3%

[@swagfun9054]

Lmao yeah the slower pace and ability for stall to be a more dominant thing kind of hurts smogon’s ability to work well as a spectator sport

[@HowlingOneify]

Well stall sucks this gen so...

[@HowlingOneify]

@@grunkleg.3110 doubles is faster paced which results in snap on the spot decisions. That is indeed risky. However singles has equally risky moments. Due to the nature of the format and all the pivoting and positioning, there are often multiple risky predictions made to gain advantages.

[@selearth3123]

@@grunkleg.3110 That's the same shit, you realize that right? Both are just rolls of the dice; do you hit focus blast? do you get the double protect? Neither one of them are inherently more exciting than the other. Maybe the double protect was exciting to you, I don't know, but if he's resorting to double protect that probably means it's his only out to win the game and then it's not a 'risky play' anymore because it's the only way he can win, he isn't choosing it over another, possibly viable option. It's the same shit as when, just as an example for singles, you're last mon Thundurus-T vs last mon Tyranitar and your Thundurus is running a standard Knock Off/Psychic/Thunderbolt/Focus Blast set. Clicking Focus Blast is the only viable option in scenarios where the Tyranitar isn't already chipped way down for Thunderbolt (or Volt Switch) to kill, so clicking Focus Blast isn't a play, it's just the only reasonable thing to do. There isn't anything to predict or outplay, Zacian is going to Play Rough 10/10 times because they're the only two mons left and it's the only move that kills Kyogre from that HP, and double protecting to get enough hp to live it isn't some sort of genius play when it's literally the only option where he doesn't lose the game on the spot. Maybe it's just me, but rolling a die and seeing if the outcome turns out in my favour or not isn't exciting to me, and that's whats going on here, exactly the same as in the Tyranitar/Thundurus example I gave you.

[@justaliljello5198]

@@selearth3123 While the example he gave definitely didn’t make sense doubles is definitely the riskier format. There are many more uncertainties in doubles than singles and wrong plays or rng will have you lose much more often.

[@selearth3123]

@@justaliljello5198 You can't just say 'there are more uncertainties' and 'wrong plays will have you lose more often' and then not provide any sort of examples, or stats, for a claim like that. At least argue the point, don't just say shit and leave it at that. I'll give you an example for singles: Let's just use Choice Specs Tapu Koko, but any offensive electric mon pretty much works for this scenario. They have a toxapex in right now, and their ground type in the back is Garchomp, and you don't know its set yet. I see a pretty wide range of decisions to make here on both sides, both with varying risks accompanying them (and this is ignoring the other 9 mons both players still have left). Just to type out some pretty common scenarios, do you: a) U-Turn predicting the Garchomp to come in on them predicting Thunderbolt, but risk it being rocky helmet and taking chip on Koko because of it. b) Risk that they stay in and now you have to potentially risk a toxic on a non-steel type if they click that, or a scald burn on a steel type if you predict toxic after you U-Turn and see that they stay in. c) Hard switch out predicting helmet Garchomp because you don't want your no-boots koko taking helmet chip when it's likely going to take rocks chip later on as well, but risk them staying in with the same thing occuring as in option b. d) Thunderbolt predicting your opponent staying in and killing Toxapex, but risking that they go Garchomp and giving them a free Rocks or Swords Dance opportunity because you predicted incorrectly. Hopefully you see what I'm getting at here, doubles isn't the only format where you have a large tree of decisions with risks associated to them each turn.

[@DrFoggyPants]

I love how the VGC battle sounds like he jus pulled off a crazy combo that takes a ton of practice to do, when he just got lucky

[@crazycoolkids00]

Luck is hype, long-term strategies (often stall) is not. One of these is more spectator-friendly than the other. But the less luck-based meta is superior, regardless of what spectators think.

[@user-wg8nb2uj8y]

@@crazycoolkids00 found the stall player

[@purpleenthusiast5814]

"But the less luck-based meta is superior, regardless of what spectators think."🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓

[@skateboardmd9163]

@@purpleenthusiast5814 I mean that's always a given. Having skill and actually knowing what you're doing is sick, but it doesn't change the fact that it's unmarketable and boring sadly.

[@purpleenthusiast5814]

@@skateboardmd9163 I don't actually think that, I was making fun of the guy above, lol. Sorry for not putting quotation marks

[@theimpersonator7086]

I really didn't like double battles at all when I started playing Pokemon, but playing through Gale of Darkness did give me an apprecitation of them. Shoutouts to Rylee the Jolteon for being such a good support mon with Helping Hand, Fast T-Wave, Protect and Thunder. Still prefer Singles by a long shot, but another game like the GC Pokemon games would be cool Also, the devs need to nerf the hell out of Regenerator

[@SpectreXS]

I've played Colo and XD for the first time last year and I wish all the games were doubles-only. It gives more meaning to making storyline teams, rather than knowing you can plow through most of the game with your 1-of main.

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@SpectreXS Eh, I still don't think XD was that hard at all and not harder than a normal pokemon game. Pokemon has so many options due to its very nature that you can easily find and use some really broken and dumb stuff if you want. Think the only time in XD I had anything resembling diffuctly was the very last Mirror B fight and I didn't even grind at all If you want to make hard Pokemon games you really have to go down the Drayano rom hack route.

[@SunsetInStone]

Regen itself isn't the issue. It's that they keep distributing it and allowing more cores to be built with it. Slowking-Galar, for example, should just not exist.

[@twinleadersx8179]

You think Doubles is crazy? What till you see what some youtubers have done with Triples! (Granted, it's ORAS, but still)

[@alexisdipoalo9443]

Its not for everyone

[@doopness785]

Doubles VGC format average number of turns per game 9. Smogon singles format average number of turns per game 72. I wonder which is more exciting to watch.

[@The_Pikaboi]

Yeah but also people watch cricket instead of football

[@bmac4]

This is why Ubers metas tend to be some of my favorite. The power level is so high that bulky Pokemon have to be used more carefully matches take considerably fewer turns than Gen 7 OU.

[@eidkristo6107]

Play gen 7 ubers

[@halfpace1462]

Depends on the gen, gen 1 ubers is hilarious and its just PP stalling hell cause the entire game revolves around mewtwo. Half the matches are decided by a mewtwo ditto its insanely funny

[@SpectreXS]

Unfortunately this is the main issue with Singles formats: there's too much room for total BS such as stalls or setups. Add that to 6v6, it makes unviable for a live tournament setting. VGC has its flaws, but for the amount of BS allowed in its formats due to no tiered banlist (such as zacian-c in this format), it flows surprisingly well. Team preview bring 4 of 6 yields a good best-of-3 format that doesn't even go to time often.

[@internetrandodotcom]

there being "too much room" for stall is a pretty big misconception, because stall really isn't that good in most tiers. truthfully, bulky offense and balance, which provide a medium of both offensive prowess and defensive counterplay to thrive, are typically what's best. there's obviously going to be a difference when you don't bring a full party of 6 to a game, as well. just like how in bss, having only 3 pokemon makes the single battles much faster. however, this also makes it so that one simple mistake or one unlucky turn can snowball into an instant loss.

[@MrCheeze]

3-of-6 is the official singles format, it surprises me that it gets essentially zero attention compared to 4-of-6 doubles and 6-of-6 singles.

[@ScaredEz]

These aren’t even stall teams, they’re just typical OU balance teams with Clefable, Toxapex, Ferrothorn core

[@yonatanbeer3475]

@@MrCheeze apparently bss is a lot more popular in Japan

[@harpot678]

@@MrCheeze I have a theory that Pokemon wanted to try to make singles competitive work, but don't want long sets so it works better in a tournament scheduling setting, but since nobody cares about their proposed format they just gave up. The shorter timer in SwSh is to try to push the community to the format that fits the timer, but instead they just complained about 6v6 taking too long for the timer.

[@robertlupa8273]

I was going to say "couldn't the same situation happen in VGC", but then I realised one is a single battle, one is a double battle. Explains why there's no 'pex in VGC.

[@coqui9879]

Yeah pex sucks in vgc because you can just ignore it and kill the rest of its team first

[@InciniumVGC]

Most battles in VGC are like 8 turns long.

[@niar1726]

There's also a strict time limit in vgc

[@eidkristo6107]

If your a bad guy you can make a good stall team in vgc

[@jodgemoot]

Dude aaron hitting the double protect into miss was fucking insane, i dont even play vgc i just randomly tuned in and witnessed a legendary moment

[@soniablanche5672]

yeah watching a literal flip coin is so exciting

[@malareon]

it kinda makes vgc feel sacky in my eyes but that's just me.

[@selearth3123]

yahoo he rolled some dice and got the low% outcome. exhilirating.

[@jodgemoot]

holy shit i hate pokemon players

[@harpot678]

@@selearth3123 Why do people get excited for what happens in a movie? it's already a set outcome, and there are 0 stakes. shut up don't make fun of people getting excited for something

[@Mangoscats]

I’m a vgc player but I still love your content and learning stuff about 1v1

[@CC-to1vr]

1v1 or 6v6 ?

[@sumansaxena2277]

@@CC-to1vr 1v1 means 1 pokemon versus 1 opposing pokemon

[@3rajab]

Same here

[@copenwiththestress3732]

*shows balance vs balance* Freezai watchers: is this stall?

[@pitdarkangel2961]

Real OGs roast their own format

[@VJ-Vice]

God I love VGC. It's so complex and the push and pull of offense and defense is so compelling

[@jaydeeq273]

optimal singles is just the most boring stall matches

[@lexaray5]

​@@jaydeeq273*optimal singles under an arbitrarily restricted ruleset

[@halfpace1462]

​@jaydeeq273 stall isnt optimal for the vast majority of metas tho... people CHOOSE to play stall because its an option, its almost never the best team or strategy. The difference is that, in many situations, uou can end up in a "locked" position where youre forced to pp stall. That happens sometimes but 7 times out of 10 stall is kinda doo doo Id say the only gen where stall is legit the meta is generation 2. That gen is notorious for games lasting 140 turns easily but faster oaced gens like the beautiful gen 3 and gen 1, 4, 5 even 6 are far more fast paced.

[@ReshiramEighteen]

VGC: OMG DOUBLE PROTECT POGGERS THE GAME IS SAVED SPL: so we have ourselves a run of the mill 1v1 pp stall war between Leo’s Pex and suapah’s Clef. Clef has the speed advantage here but its Knock Offs are only doing minimal damage that Pex can easily heal back on switch out, meanwhile Pex is content to spam click Haze having gotten the scald burn going on Clef

[@OsomeOli]

First sounds way more interesting

[@siddharthnandi3995]

Stall Wars are really uncommon in singles rn. That match was the exception, not the norm.

[@anythingarax]

Hey now, this is more a result of years of stall mechanics piling on top of each other, singles is pretty fun still

[@purplereign2410]

singles has always been and always will be the slower format. Stall will always exist in singles.

[@internetrandodotcom]

stall will always EXIST but in most metagames it's far from the best playstyle. infact, in tiers like zu, it's borderline unviable. the reality is that the most viable singles teams are bulky offense / balance, which is the same for vgc

[@vengefulbale]

Also in Doubles, it's far easier to gang up on the strong mons/stall mons first then snowball afterwards

[@alibaba3568]

@@internetrandodotcom In my experience (Gen 7 OU), stall can be very deadly if your team lacks some proper answers

[@thomass.4007]

@@vengefulbale stall mons first? I believe the opposite, in doubles theres the ‘all my friends are dead syndrome’, which means that many stall mons can be completely ignored while the offensive ally is ganged up on, until theres only the stall mon left against 2 or more opponents, which makes many stall mons less viable

[@DrDrao]

VGC is fun to watch, but I would never play it. Singles is fun to play, but some matches are unwatchable

[@onadaTotihotiH]

Stuff like this is why I really hope we get another game that’s largely focused on double battles like Colosseum and XD were at some point down the line. There’s so many interesting strategies that would make the mainline games more interesting if they had more than like 10 double battles with random NPCs in the entire game, excluding the (not) Battle Tower. Would also give those Pokémon that learn a few moves that only work in doubles (e.g. Helping Hand) via level up or have abilities that interact with doubles (Telepathy) a bit more to work with.

[@givecamichips]

VGC is a really good format, I'm glad that's the official one because otherwise doubles would probably be even less popular

[@jerrysandoval2001]

​@@eidkristo6107It's not. In every country vgc will be the official format cause TPC says so lol.

[@TempestDacine]

Both styles are great and have their pros and cons, but yeah stall wars arn't that fun to watch lmao.

[@eidkristo6107]

Cqn wee talk pls

[@pill6642]

Seeing both Pex and Clef run out of PP is hilarious

[@user-lq4ct6dr5m]

Imagine one day in VGC both players brought their double stall and stall out each other live

[@lillieofthevlly]

"um, these teams arent even stall teams" THAT MAKES IT WORSE LMAO

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

tbh even vgc matches can end on two supporters pp stalling each other, and they are definitely not stall teams

[@lillieofthevlly]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 i legitimately dont think ive ever seen that. it's possible, but support pokemon are so much more vulnerable. they often dont run healing moves like singles supports often do, so one of them just dies because they need to have a damaging move to even get to that situation excluding even rarer circumstances.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@lillieofthevlly especially in gen7 this actually happened pretty often, where supporters like cresselia, porygon2 or gastrodon always had recovery moves. A game ending on cresselia vs. gastrodon for example was bound to go into the 50ies turn wise (or into timeout on console). Icy Wind Cresselia vs. Giga Drain Amoonguss too, or any supporter vs. Porygon2. In a porygon2 vs cresselia it often boiled down to whether porygon2 can get a status condition on cresselia.

[@lillieofthevlly]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 still even in metas where it is more likely it requires a much more specific scenario than singles for both support pokemon to survive that long and probably isnt gonna be more than stalling out 10 recover pp anyways. oh yea and the game timer makes the whole thing different and less likely as well. in vgc pp stalling will almost never have to finish, just start and then the clock will run out. big difference i think.

[@prasannashetty965]

This video just propagates the myth that Smogon loves stall when in reality it's been the worst since Gen 5. Also people are misunderstanding Balance teams as Stall.

[@1snivy10]

"Anything that isn't hyper offense is stall"

[@bookedroomer]

fr this is some anti smogon propaganda shit lmao

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

if I can't 1 shot everything then you're stall, seems to be peoples idea.

[@internetrandodotcom]

it sucks so hard that people like verlisify were successfully able to push false narratives to completely neuter the reputation of smogon, even though stall isn't even good most of the time

[@skullerclawerbandicoot7966]

I never even had the idea Smogon loves stall, I honestly just hate stall all together. I dont have a problem with bulky teams as I have a few but pure stall just bores me more than being in church

[@MoxieBoosted]

Let's go VGC

[@coletonmarino1310]

Didnt expect to see you here lmao

[@RickRaptor105]

I was expecting the Smogon version to show someone failing the double Protect

[@Zenithal1843]

Stall is obviously obnoxious but I’d much rather play Singles than play Doubles.

[@Kraut108]

And this is why vgc is the official format lol.

[@goGothitaLOL]

Speaking of Smogon vs. VGC, you should consider a video about "Pokemon that are better in doubles than singles and vice-versa" (Yes, i know WolfeyVGC and PokeAdm done it first, but i would like for you to do it) Singles/Smogon OU: Clefable Dugtrio Slowbro Cloyster Gengar Chansey and Blissey Quagsire Skarmory Scizor (at least nowadays since Gen 7) Swampert (at least nowadays in Gen 8, without megas) Weavile Pelipper Hydreigon (in Gen 8) Tornadus-T Thundurus-T Tapu Koko (in Gen 8) Tapu Lele (in Gen 8) Toxapex Cinderace Corviknight Barraskewda Dracovish Galarian Darmanitan Galarian Slowking Mega Charizard X Mega Sableye Mega Lopunny, Pinsir, Mawile, Gallade (only because Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Salamence, and Mega Metagross are all banned there..........in PokemonShowdown OU) Mega Gengar Doubles/VGC: Incineroar Regieleki Grimmsnarl Whimiscott Tornadus-I Indeedee-F Torkoal Venusaur The other 2 Kanto Starters (when there's Dynamax) Amoonguss Gastrodon Glastrier Nihilego Stakataka Lapras (as long as there's Dynamax) Politoed Kingdra Regigigas/Slaking and Galarian Weezing Togekiss Tsareena (as long as there's no dynamax) Hitmontop (look above) Clefairy Dusclops Porygon2 Raichu Kingdra Talonflame (after the Gale Wings nerfs) Meinshao (whenever they ban Dynamax in Gen 8) Ferrothorn and Dragapult serve different roles depending on format, and Mamoswine runs Thick Fat in singles and Obvlious (now that it blocks Intimidate) in doubles

[@roccotopliff4843]

Barraskewda has gotten some usage in high level vgc recently but from my understanding still a lot better in singles p

[@AuroraBoost]

@@roccotopliff4843 You're right. That thing on Rain teams is an absolute monster.

[@ShortT-RexLikeArms]

Tbf VGC is more lax when it come to restrictions. While Ubers allow more variations in teams it also makes stall very effective as hard hitters tend to get banned.

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

“It’s a bit of a stalemate”

[@ayayafanfan]

this says a lot about our society

[@xoopmax]

I wonder what a singles meta without transfer moves would look like.

[@GravityIsFalling]

Personally think It’ll be way better

[@1snivy10]

What's a transfer move

[@GravityIsFalling]

@@1snivy10 A move learned in a previous generation In VGC transfers aren’t allow so lando for example doesn’t have defog In singles it is allowed so lando does have defog

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

unbearably stale.

[@HowlingOneify]

@@GravityIsFalling it isn't. Pre home was a no transfer moves meta and it was AWFUL.

[@LuDogg805]

I love doubles better because more Pokemon are viable... switching in or out, isn't as punishable, and more moves + Pokemon are viable/legal... singles feels like a constant prediction game, and a bad prediction or unlucky RNG is too punishing. It's also more campier and viability is way more strict. More items start to become more of a necessity, like choiced items. Yeah singles is too linear.

[@nerdstop5025]

"More pokemon are viable" "viability is strict" Which one is it? You can't both have more pokemon being viable and viability being strict

[@eidkristo6107]

Agreed

[@eidkristo6107]

Plus people usualy make smogon look bad on purpse but let me introduce you too dynamax

[@beta511ee4]

@@nerdstop5025 They were talking about two different formats. Read more carefully and you’ll see there’s no contradiction.

[@nerdstop5025]

@@beta511ee4 oh whoops, yeah that's my bad, I was reading the comment too fast and singles was lowercase and I guess my brain skipped over it. I still disagree with the statement because in VGC more pokemon aren't really that much more viable, or if there is, it's because there are threats, the counters to those threats, the counters to the counters, and then the original threat which counters the counters counters. VGC just takes shorter because of 2 mons being sent out at the same time and singles you have 5 pokemon to fall back on. It's like playing Anything Goes, but doubles and you only get 4 mons and 1 of each item.

[@milliondollarmistake]

God PP stalling has got to be the fucking worst thing to ever play as or fight against. Burning up to a max of 64 turns on a single move with a single Pokemon? Why isn't there something in place similar to sleep clause?

[@freezerman7109]

Okay so the SPL game is a tiebreaker and if anyone makes an unnecessary play, if they lose their team doesn't make finals and due to these stakes no one switched.

[@patrickstar8132]

Look, I get it. Stall is annoying and at times absolutely unbearable to play against. **BUT** Please stop saying this is Stall Vs Stall or that smogon promotes stall. This is a balance vs balance match up and a situation which honestly didn't even have to occur when the clef user had 6 mons and effective ways to pressure pex. Hell, stall isn't even that dominant in the meta, it's Bulky offense or balance teams.

[@kirbycommon7570]

Why did the clef not switch out btw to like koko?

[@patrickstar8132]

@@kirbycommon7570 PP stalling was a more safe play to not risk chip or toxic on Koko, but honestly I feel that someone would only really do this because it's a high stakes tourney. Most would just go Koko, especially if this was just a typical ladder game.

[@kirbycommon7570]

@@patrickstar8132 True. But I think most of the mons would get hit too hard anyways so I guess it was the pressure.

[@beta511ee4]

@@patrickstar8132 How do you differentiate between balance and stall?

[@patrickstar8132]

@@beta511ee4 Balance has a mix of defensive and offensive pokemon. Look at suapah's team. It has three offensive mons (assuming lando is defensive) Koko, Weavile, Dnite. Leo has zapdos (a mix of defensive/offensive) hydreigon and zera. Stall on the other hand, goes full on defensive. It usually has wincons (i.e. CM unaware clef, Iron defense Skarm, etc.) but at its core it's focused on defensive play and wearing down the opposition with passive damage (burn, toxic, hazards) while denying opposing passive damage (heal bell to cure status, Mega sableye to deny hazards/taunt, defog to remove hazards) This is an example of a full on stall team (not mine, and outdated, but for the most part this is how a stall team would look like) pokepast.es/dd65e62f177d8ade

[@kerbonaut2059]

Okay everyone, say it with me... SMOGON LOVES STALL

[@eidkristo6107]

National dex ag lmao

[@detox2931]

Yeah I love smogon ruleset a ton, and enjoy playing it a hell of a lot more than VGC, but in high stakes games like this, it would be super boring to watch as a spectator. I can see the appeal in VGC!

[@Oscar_Cortes]

*Cricket chirps the moment the Smogon segment of the video started*

[@fen_u9401]

kinda accurate but most importantly, kinda funny😀

[@Emmanuel-vv9lm]

Cant lie i dont even play vgc a lot but it’s much more fun to watch

[@outspade]

all this time i thought double protect was 50% and it halved every consecutive use how long have i been wrong for yeesh

[@Zeo--]

Detect does that but has less PP

[@GKplus8]

technically it's 1/(3^x) chance, with x being the number of prior consecutive uses. so the chances go 1, 1/3, 1/9, 1/27, 1/81, etc. Gens 5 and earlier did do it by halving, but with particular weird edge cases because of classic gamefreak programming

[@alexisdipoalo9443]

Tbh I kinda agree here. Admitly I'm not helping as I only use stall within smogons formats due to the restrictions on offense

[@Loris71734]

It’s funny everybody is saying it’s stall and smogon loves stall when stall is literally not good this gen and the only reason they are pp stalling is simply none of Leo’s Pokémon can switch into and beat clefable and suapah shouldn’t risk switching an offensive Pokémon into a potential scald burn when they’re already on the way to victory. Your channel is usually very informative and high quality so it’s surprising to see a video that propagates a very clearly false myth that smogon is stally and caters to stall. Even if it’s just a joke video look at the comment section

[@purplereign2410]

stall isn't good rn, but this just shows that even while stall is bad, singles still has times that are incredibly boring to watch with PP stalling. VGC is the more fun viewing experience, cope more bro

[@HotFootBunny]

Ou cater to stall dude, and from a spectator point of view this is boring as shit, and its the ou counsel fault, out of of all the counsels OU's is the worst for me

[@gh0rochi363]

It’s a joke bro chill. He saw a funny situation and made a video to make a joke. Stall does happen in smogon sure but those who play it know not every gane is like this. 99% of the battles aren’t like this.

[@nimroddafny7125]

Considering that he plays singles competitively I'm 99% sure that this isn't meant to be taken seriously (I agree about your notion regarding the comment section tho).

[@Dexuz]

Irrelevant, the point is to show the stall moment of the match, an event that would be impossible in doubles.

[@Aman-og9pw]

The s in smogon stands for stall

[@siddharthnandi3995]

Thise were two Balance teams, not stall.

[@HenryZhoupokemon]

Idk if it’s just me but I actually prefer singles where the games are longer and less volatile. I guess it’s similar to why some people like playing/watching classical chess over rapid and blitz

[@jos7006]

This

[@mcgoldenblade4765]

You could argue this is a case of cherry picking. VGC still has its fair share of lameness. But yeah stall in singles can get pretty bad

[@eidkristo6107]

Just learn how to play singles

[@stoicauritra7147]

Those who witness that live are the part of history

[@MatoVidovic_]

An epic red theme would have been perfect to illustrate the mastery that those haze spam took.

[@prajwalkhokale6742]

A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do

[@tomfoolery8238]

I am primarily a VGC player, but I wish Singles got more love (like with Pokeaim and other singles content creators asking for a removal/option of the in-game timer). But, could anyone REALLY sit and watch the animations of 30 Hazes and a Clef spamming Knock off on Toxapex for 3% damage and failing to use Stealth Rock just stall out PP??? Dynamax was probably made to cater to E-Sport viewership and 6v6 Singles would just be plain boring to watch. I hope Gen 9 gives both VGC and Singles player much love in terms of gameplay (remove Dynamax, hopefully bring back and rebalance Megas and low-tier/unuseable mons), QoL, and a much more fun game to watch and build a competitive community based on the premise of strategy and not cheese.

[@grunkleg.3110]

Honestly, I think some of this could be solved by giving defensive moves less PP. Haze has 48 PP or so with 3 PP maxes, meaning something like Toxapex can just repeatedly click Haze on anything trying to set up. But what if it only had 10 base PP? Would you still click Haze every chance you got? And Knock Off too. Not only does it pretty much invalidate every other physical Dark-type move on offensive Mons, defensively, it's another easily spammable move. But what if it only had 5 base PP? Then again, let's not pretend that sitting there and setting up Swords Dances or Nasty Plots isn't also very boring. Those moves could also do with some nerfs to their PP. It's kinda weird, Emerald Kaizo is genuinely kind of an amazing spectator sport, and that game also has a lot of what I'm talking about

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

this isn't like super common, I enjoy stall. also stall isn't cheese, and cheese is way more fun than having the same 10-20 pokemon in every team.

[@crazycoolkids00]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 ↑ This.

[@harpot678]

If Singles didn't adopt a format that takes ages to complete a single game, they would have had a better chance at getting more love from the company. Tournament schedules would be viable, and as it is currently, even if the Pokemon company wanted to adopt a singles format, they woudln't be able to make the community accepted format work

[@tomfoolery8238]

@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 Sorry, I did not mean that Stall is cheese or did not intend to imply that. I recognize Stall as a team composition/strategy. I actually meant to imply Dynamax as cheese. I like Dynamax for VGC, but overall it is not a healthy mechanic for BOTH VGC and Singles.

[@quiche6400]

I still prefer Singles :D and wish there was a big competition level like vgc to it

[@MK_ULTRA420]

It takes too long, especially when it's best 2 out of 3, or 3 out of 5.

[@harpot678]

if Pokemon were to ever adopt singles format, it would be best of 3, pick 3 from 6, a format that the community has rejected.

[@GravityIsFalling]

I like singles but VGC should never become single battles

[@hokostudios]

Thought this was going to be a proper discussion comparing the two, but didn't notice this was only 43 seconds lol. (Tbf though, I do think a comparison of BSS against comparable Smogon formats would be more interesting than VGC against Smogon.)

[@SAYM3DIC]

I'm so glad the VGC rules are what they are, singles just doesn't hit the same way

[@metawolf987]

Singles is not the problem, Smogon is the problem. No rational person in real life would want to engage in a battle like that, even if they are playing Singles. Smogon's stall loving meta is sustained by individuals who have far too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.

[@pikachuchujelly7628]

@@metawolf987 I think a lot of it has to do with the faster pace that Pokemon Showdown runs at. Stall tactics on Showdown take less real world time, so people there are more inclined to use them.

[@SolarityVision]

Y’all in the comments really pressed over this vid need to learn how to take a joke

[@franko1597]

It's not Smogon, it's singles overall (including battles in consoles).

[@galibrabat4237]

I'm glad VGC wasn't roasted, it's my life xD

[@shnobby3547]

It's funny. I've never played comp pokemon, but I started watching vgc doubles and then only later started watching smogon singles. I'm gonna go against the grain here, but I've found smogon singles to be more entertaining and it made me realize that I actually really hate seeing a protect go off nearly every turn. I havent watched much vgc since.

[@crazycoolkids00]

Yeah, I feel the same. Singles are more skill-based long-term chess-ish stratagems, which usually leads to less spectator-friendly games because everything follows a pattern (vs the luck of hitting double-protect into miss that makes for a hype game, but is hardly skill-based). Some things are just gonna please the viewer more than others. But I also watch competitive chess, soooo…

[@kingwinifred4393]

i would like vgc so much more without fake out and protect, so many moves are used to stop the use of moves it's lame

[@harpot678]

@@kingwinifred4393 Fake out I can sort of get, a little too much reward for leading, positioning, protect is such an important defensive option, integral to the sustainability of VGC as a format lol

[@ohnoo4468]

@@harpot678 seriously, games are already insanely fast in vgc. Without protect it’d be even faster

[@kingwinifred4393]

@@harpot678 oh it's definitely not bad for the metagame, but it's incredibly unfun imo.

[@vigorouspringle8962]

After watching all these Nuzlocke runs of ROM hacks I find myself enjoying Doubles way more than Singles If there's any Rom hack that are basically Doubles only I'd love to know about them

[@Bullet76_]

you can always join a romhack discord and ask could maybe even make ya own

[@Redthewolf2012]

Pokemon Double Emerald. Gen 8 mechs too (special/phys split, speed recalc, typings, etc)

[@vigorouspringle8962]

@@Redthewolf2012 Couple hours later this Double Emerald is fucking fun thank you for informing me of this

[@kassygo1375]

Singles still awesome tho

[@viniciusbatista146]

This remember me that melee tournament were a puff and ices player stare each other for 7 minutes and tie

[@pyranitar]

Smogon should have a turn clause or something where if you’re pokemon is on the field for too many turns they should just die this stall shit is going too far.

[@Dexuz]

Hmm... I suppose it could be a sort of "PP clause", to simply accelerate the Struggle fight.

[@pyranitar]

@@Dexuz Probably a more fair and less polarizing clause, but pokemon just fucking dying is funnier.

[@phillipanselmo8540]

we've tried implementing chess rules into pokemon before and it didn't go well

[@pyranitar]

@@phillipanselmo8540 Idk about chess bro I just want a stop being a bitch clause.

[@internetrandodotcom]

stall is literally not that good in most smogon tiers right now. the stall shit is not "out of hand", not even remotely

[@mikewehr7887]

Sometimes you gotta pp stall to remove a threat because it's the safest option

[@kimjonguninstall6279]

everyone say it with me. Smogon loves stall!

[@internetrandodotcom]

i know you're joking, but like, smogon doesn't love stall lmao stall isn't even that good in most tiers

[@kimjonguninstall6279]

@@internetrandodotcom You think I'm joking?

[@skullerclawerbandicoot7966]

@@internetrandodotcom This dude has Kim Jong Un as his pfp, automatically classified as a troll

[@wailmoregd140]

And with this acquired info, nerf stall to shit

[@internetrandodotcom]

stall isn't even that good in single battles. the two teams in the smogon video weren't even stall either, it was just one bad situation ripped out of context to push this false narrative that "smogon loves stall"

[@ogeid772]

@@internetrandodotcom i would argue that if THAT happened in a match where neither player is playing stall teams, that's all the more reason to nerf the more stall-y aspects of the format, but i dont really play smogon singles and i'm just reacting to what i saw, so feel free to disregard me

[@internetrandodotcom]

@@ogeid772 that type of situation wasn't even necessary, because the clefable user was up with all 6 mons and had multiple pokemon to threaten both pex and its teammates. it's just a crappy situation that got ripped out of context, nothing more, nothing less

[@azu1394]

id ask this over anything else, why is defensive play in a game you dont play bad?

[@N12015]

Wish accomplished. Now they put a bit too much spikes.

[@Ehan07]

Yessir I do love that stall

[@serpentmaster1323]

Vgc is just so much more interesting to me. Singles just feels so telegraphed that random singles battles and other metagames are just more entertaining.

[@MrCheeze]

Do you only play singles yourself? Because if not, there should be a lot of interesting stuff to talk about in terms of VGC/DOubles formats.

[@user-lq4ct6dr5m]

Double format is a lot fun, but I think singles is where the best part of Pokémon comes into play, and tests the players to their limit Beside stall, fuck stall

[@x10creeper52]

0:38 omg I want that kurisu skin so bad

[@duelz9366]

Singles 6v6 is where it’s at

[@bimgus5808]

We all know the best format is the G e n 7 B a t t l e R o y a l mode found in (obviously) gen 7 of Pokemon.

[@thedetectove]

Found a guy who had barely played vgc and played lots of smogon. Used a standard vgc rain team that was clearly copy and pasted. Let’s say he found the difference really quickly.

[@eliyaskiya]

Don't be surprised. Smogon loves stall

[@gligurr]

>zacian on the screen yeah, ill take smogon

[@jordanjones4144]

the showdown part was so quiet I could literally hear my cereal moving around in the milk in the background

[@piemanlee4420]

I hope you start doing doubles content. Either VGC or just doubles OU. Way more interesting than singles imo

[@RinaShinomiyaVal]

Where only HO is viable? Nah

[@Redthewolf2012]

@@RinaShinomiyaVal reminder that Pachirisu was world champ. Anything is viable in VGC, if you're good at the game lol

[@roccotopliff4843]

@@Redthewolf2012 tbf mega garaydos was more unexpected than it. Aaron and wolfey tested it before worlds

[@selearth3123]

@@Redthewolf2012 "pachirisu was world champ" as the argument for anything being viable LMAOOOOOOOOOOO you're smoking top shelf boof

[@skullerclawerbandicoot7966]

@@roccotopliff4843 How? It gets better stats. Pachi just sucks normally

[@Wadosan]

I’m so glad little cup exists

[@NoobMaster-px1ic]

how tf does that showdown user have a steins gate avatar lmao

[@franko1597]

Custom avatar.

[@NoobMaster-px1ic]

@@franko1597 i didn't know custom avatars could be anything. I thought it had to be pokemon-related (like freezai's avatar)

[@blakegroves6441]

showdown doubles, best of both worlds, more reasonable power but no singes stall.

[@USPSArtoria]

I got major WOMBO COMBO VIBES from this video 😂😂😂😂😂

[@jamesprumos7775]

This is why when the first tournaments happened back in the 90s, they instituted the "bring 6 choose 3" rule, cuz they knew how long the games would be if they didn't.

[@emiandnues]

Smogon's inability to sanction defensive play for quality of life reasons is the biggest culprit here. One of the reasons VGC is more "fun" is because they don't allow for transfer moves (and that happened bc of Thundy-T in the 2012 vgc season). Smogon should consider this, Knock Off/Toxic and other support moves would be WAY less broken and it would also de-power creep

[@internetrandodotcom]

the reality is that when smogon bans overpowered breakers, it makes extreme playstyles (hyper offense AND stall) worse. when an overpowered breaker is in a metagame, the only way to *defensively* check that breaker is to stack defensive pokemon on a team. banning an overpwoered wallbreaker thus leaves more room to build around offensive/utility mons, rather than stacking walls on top of each other. this lets balanced teams and bulky offense teams shine, letting players more easily build creative teams. so, smogon does sanction defensive play also, stall is literally not that good in most tiers in gen 8 right now. and especially in tiers like zu, it's completely unviable.

[@emiandnues]

@@internetrandodotcom that's true, but I wasn't speaking about stall specifically, just defensive play. A lot of mons in gen 8 have a moveset comprised of a lot of moves they don't get in gen 8. Teams have to counterplay toxic, knock off and teleport way more bc of this. This paired with an ever growing list of defensive mechanics (boots, regenerator, terrains, flip turn/teleport, etc.) make the game less fun

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

who's quality of life? those sound like terrible changes.

[@emiandnues]

@@internetrandodotcom just wait for gen 8 wish+scald+toxic flip turn mola. Sure, we can deal with it, but at what cost?

[@wesleywyndam-pryce5305]

@@emiandnues as for your second comment, no. it might be less fun to you but then go play vgc or something.

[@BestgirlJordanfish]

Honestly, like... valid. I appreciate smogon a lot, but damn I don't enjoy the singles

[@brunolinares604]

What a legend

[@raresuwako6796]

“Professionals have standards”

[@ryansoltner5229]

i wish i had seen that set, i managed to catch the finals but that match seemed to be the highlight of the event

[@thepotato513]

Now we need a clip of Wolfe Glick using the team that was designed to stall for time with long animations

[@marioruiz5758]

Yup. This is the reason I play vgc.

[@anthonyk3952]

Anyone mind telling me what the purpose of hazing and soft boiling every turn was? Is Stored Power Clefable THAT threatening? And do you need the burn heal THAT badly against a switch in?

[@riccardoredigolo7802]

I think it was an instance of PP stall

[@clarambrosia9834]

pp stall

[@azu1394]

clefable has done everything it needs to, so suapah was staying in to waste pp from the pex, leo seems to want to keep the threat of toxic’ing the koko by keeping pex in, as clefable doesnt threaten it

[@the_cool_j_7494]

VGC is kinda fire though, I love doubles

[@backpackerraden6268]

Thanks for the laugh. Keep up the great content

[@Pine.appl.e]

And this is why I like to play VGC more

[@jzwizzles8795]

That VGC Match was Crazy

[@KobeLoverTatum]

Seems like its more about the specific format of singles vs doubles and also having a live audience then.

[@123Todayy]

Say the mantra: "Smogon loves stall"

[@Spyko-]

to be fair I think a match being won on a double protect also feel like BS

[@rifasclub]

No one is talking about balance, but Smoogon is just boring.

[@mistake1197]

@@rifasclub opinion

[@exaunitive4948]

@@rifasclub Smogon ou?yes can be boring but Smogon lower tiers are fun

[@LnnyOsoTo]

The faster nature of VGC means that winning on luck is more common. A phrase commonly repeated in VGC commentary is "When there's a Rock Slide there's a way".

[@mistake1197]

@@exaunitive4948 unofficial tiers are way better. Stuff like nat dex and free for all and even random battle come to mind.