Vicentino: Madonna il poco dolce

Johannes Keller performs "Madonna il poco dolce" (fragment of a four part madrigal) by Nicola Vicentino (1555) on a reconstruction of the Archicembalo, made by Marco Tiella and the Formentelli workshop in 1974. The construction of the instrument strictly follows Vicentino's descriptions.

[@workpine9195]

Imagine how beautiful the music could be if this was accepted, and the variety of colors and sonances possible

[@nathanhardee__]

The way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future, the way of the future

[@dylanbepis570]

I had no idea there was microtonal music in the renaissance. Absolutely amazing.

[@cetterus]

Long story short- diatonic music with microtonal tuning (for different tonalities).

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

@@Ekvitarius It's an interesting discussion. From a historical point of view, I disagree with your statement that this piece is diatonic. It is diatonic in the first section (using only 7 keys per octave), chromatic in the middle section (introducing the small chromatic semitone as a new melodic interval) and enharmonic in the final section (introducing the Diesis as a new melodic interval). Vicentino wrote this piece to demonstrate the differences between diatonic, chromatic and enharmonic, in his very own understanding. But I do agree that this music is still (vertically) consonant, this might lead to the impression that it is still diatonic. Whether we should call this music microtonal or not I don't know, I usually don't, for the reasons you mentioned.

[@LaserGryph]

This was just an effort to get around the temperament problems of the day. Maintaining interval purity in all keys is not possible on linear keyboard instruments.

[@cetterus]

@@JohannesKellerCembalo yeah, this is why I wrote "long story short". Want the real "microtonal" stuff? You need to alter more music parameters as well. More notes per scale (any scale, doesn't need to be 2/1 ratio)- more harmonic functions, more levels of consonance- dissonance, enharmony gets new levels... you wanna get living, folk, instrumental tuning in hexatonal scale? I can hook you up. We are making some researches here as we speak.This weekend we had some sweet lectures and performances on Microfest. But this is not about tuning. This music is about tuning.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Nightfeather Yes and no: the introduction of the Diesis (128:125) as a melodic interval was not to solve temperament problems but to enhance the usual system (meantone) in order to make the enharmonic genus available. In this piece the same temperament problems occur as in a conventional piece performed in meantone temperament. But Vicentino describes an alternative tuning system (not 31edo) to compensate for temperament problems, so yes, this instrument could also be used to mimic Just Intonation, but that‘s not what happens in this video.

[@thomasciul8932]

Amazing! I've been building harpsichords about 40 years and I know I couldn't tune that instrument!

[@matthewprovost5938]

Of course you could! There are no intervals to temper, all pure based!

[@romeolz]

@@matthewprovost5938 i mean, this is meantone *temperament* , which does temper 81/80 meaning only the 8va and 3rd are pure, but it is still tunable by ear but much harder than pythagorean temperament

[@juhalahdenoja2245]

@@romeolz Do you mean pythagorean tuning? Pythagorean isn't a temperament, if I recall correctly all fifths are tuned pure.

[@LuscaSharktopus]

i love how you can hear the 'tac tac' of pressing the keys

[@Kaiveran]

The modulation from 1:29-1:32 is like reaching the edge of a cliff and finally being able to see the view of everything below.

[@LuizBHMG]

One of the most incredible modulations I've ever heard. And you won't hear it again in 400 years of music "development".

[@frfrchopin]

@@LuizBHMG more like "12EDO centralization and ways now better than anything before"

[@user-rd3jw7pv7i]

I know right!

[@kalonjirivers8902]

I love how that instrument sounds with double-decker style keys, plus quartertones. I wish I could get my hands on one of those. Nice performance, too!

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Doesn't have quarter tones but yeah

[@ArturBernardoMallmann]

Oh man! this is incredibly crazy!! our ears are so accustomed with the twelve divisions, and something like this makes you rethink music. How far the evolution of music had got, and now we just staid comfortable.

[@kamakirinoko]

Hmm . . . I would venture that the human ear is just attuned to regular tuning. This is just TOO BIZARRE! It makes me feel like someone is filing my canines.

[@vicenteduran1548]

I agree

[@benmaloney5434]

@@kamakirinoko There is no such thing as 'regular tuning'. Your ears are not currently accustomed to hearing divisions this small, but the harmonic intervals (i.e. the vertical relations between notes) here are actually mostly closer to their natural proportions in the harmonic series than in our 12-TET today. Our semitones don't really exist naturally either (however the whole-tone does as 9:8), but are simply the by-product of stacking 12 - slightly diminished - fifths and condensing them into the space of an octave. The fully chromatic scale in Vicentino's tuning system would have a diesis (a 5th of a tone) between each note, which is perfectly large enough for the human ear to distinguish .. of course it's not much less than half a semitone.

[@Engineer9736]

I agree with Ben that our ears are not 'accustomed to twelve divisions'. Mathematically the solution of this instrument may be correct, but if it sounds wrong then it probably is wrong in some way (which we don't oversee right away). The solution that this instrument came up with may be right, but they can still tune it according to different methods. I can set my normal digital piano also to a dozen alternative tuning methods, of which none sound normal in my ears. Perhaps the same is going on with the instrument in this video.

[@electric7487]

@@kamakirinoko Never assume uselessness or needlessly complexity when ignorance, laziness, or complacency will suffice.

[@Robot.Palmtree]

This is beautiful. It makes me think of a someone playing a synth harpsichord, and a 2nd person is casually hitting a pitch-bend button on occasion. Reminds me of some electronic music, but it's like alternate dimensions open up, amazing. Thank you for sharing your playing!

[@AmandaKaymusic]

This week's 12Tone youtube clip brought me to the search for tunes played on a archicembalo. Thank you for the musicality of this piece. It gave me a taste of how tempered my tones brain really is.

[@tubalooney]

Amazing! That cleaned my ears out! We have such a restricted sense of intonation today! As a singer we usually tune naturally to one another. When singing a capella. Thanks very much for your video.

[@charlesgaskell5899]

what is "naturally" though? And if you do it "usually", when do you *not* do it?

[@__Man__]

​@@charlesgaskell5899 because of 12-ET restriction, people will say that you are out of tune.

[@charlesgaskell5899]

@@__Man__ there is no 12-ET restriction with A Cappella singing though, and is what @tubalooney was referring to

[@__Man__]

@@charlesgaskell5899 12-ET, the ET (Equal Temperament) is supposed to be a restriction itself. There is a word EQUAL there, if you improvised then you already use microtonals and no longer use 12-ET.

[@tokkia1384]

Very crunchy. I love it

[@nikoletaradulovic818]

It's like it's massaging my brain cells

[@awli8861]

this sounds so beautiful!

[@swapticsounds]

After learning a bit about microtonal harmonics, I had the idea to combine two 19edo keyboards which are a perfect fifth away from each other, (to have both well tuned thirds, fifths and all the possibilities of equal temperament) posted in in a microtonal group and a dude said my idea is already 500 years old. Well, I guess it´s still not exactly the same concept but still fascinating to explore similar ones.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Actually I'm not sure if this specific idea can be found in the 16th/17th century. Vicentino describes the combination of two 19-keyed manuals in 1/4-comma-meantone (basically 31edo) a pure fifth apart, which is a fantastic setup for any kind of vocal polyphony. I used it many times for concert performances and CD recordings. But the combination of two 19edo manuals a fifth apart I couldn't find anywhere. But in my opinion one can expect that it was done, since it is conceptually so close to the 1/4-comma setup.

[@macbird-lt8de]

I hate when they steal my idea before I had it or even was born. But I like the sense of confirmation that it was a good idea.

[@twincitieshornclubminnesot7176]

Avant garde 1555

[@emilianoturazzi]

no, it wasn't avant garde vene then... :)

[@santiagoromero1414]

Lavá el balde. Que hembra!

[@toolguy6534]

Sounds just like my harpsichord on a hot day :-) Spectactular work Johannes, et all, I really enjoyed the performance. If you "get" temperament, then this make sense and is, of course, a lot of fun! Thank you so much for this!

[@canerdeger60]

This is absolutely phenominal!

[@beeroux]

Everything was "microtonal" during the Renaissance.

[@clasherdanet8699]

I wonder if electronic music makes use of microtones

[@mr.p.l.627]

@@clasherdanet8699 Some of it does! There's a lot of cool microtonal lofi with electric keyboards and stuff. Definitely worth a listen if you're into these sounds.

[@helugoconache]

@@clasherdanet8699 you should check out Sevish

[@bored_person]

@@clasherdanet8699 unfortunately, the vast majority of synthesizers and sequencers do not support microtonal scales, so the only way to make microtonal music with that is to use pitch bends on each voice.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

​@@helugoconache Fastfast and Beheld too

[@iroyuroy2630]

Questo brano dimostra la stupefacente abilità tecnica a cui era pervenuta la cultura musicale e artistica in Italia nel XVI secolo (e di riflesso la raffinatezza della società che si nutriva di questi capolavori). Anyone who loves this music should learn Italian and live in this country, to better appreciate it.

[@CTABPOGIN]

iroyuroy e purtroppo la gente fugge dall'italia, non c'e lavoro

[@CTABPOGIN]

pero assolumente d'acordo e un paese fortunato

[@claudiobini7711]

Il Vicentino ideo' questo strumento e la relativa accordatura con microintervalli, pensando anche di poter meglio studiare e riprodurre le melodie dell'antica grecia che , perquanto se ne sappia ben poco, si basavano su tetracordi che assumevano nomi e conseguenti sensazioni percettive diverse a seconda della posizione dei vari microintervalli all'interno di una quarta naturale . Geniale ! Ma non dimentichiamo che siamo nel Rinascimento .

[@emilianoturazzi]

"Anyone who loves this music should learn Italian and live in this country, to better appreciate it" as an italina I totally disagree...

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Beh, il temperamento mesotonico era adatto alla musica modale del tempo, ma per la musica tonale di oggi non sarebbe la migliore opzione, perché alcuni intervalli suonerebbero abbastanza stonati per l'ascoltatore medio.

[@josephzaarour6649]

Woooow man, is this historical fingering! It looks crazy for me

[@frfrchopin]

Modulations using the diesis sound so great! Definately an entertaining interval.

[@millennial8441]

So interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[@luuktorn]

Must be a hell of a work to tune that harpsichord

[@frfrchopin]

It's probably easier in some perspectives seeing how 1/4 comma meantone has very nearly pure 5 and 7

[@sorgemenendez9198]

I thought it was 'designed' to sound out of tune ha ha

[@frfrchopin]

@@sorgemenendez9198 it was designed to improve the quality of the prime number 5 without having any wolves. It was also used to express the difference between 2 enharmonically equivalent notes such as G# and Ab

[@sorgemenendez9198]

@@frfrchopin i was joking

[@frfrchopin]

@@sorgemenendez9198 sry. Didn't see how that is something to go on r/woooosh lol

[@LuisFlores-xr5bu]

One of the coolest channels I found

[@DaveyL1954]

I've tried to explain to my piano students about the idea that A#s are different to B flats. My way of explaining is based around the concept that tunings were so open to problems (ever tried tuning a keyboard up through perfect 5ths? You'll discover an extra note there. It is the Fibonacci sequence in full display for musicians here.) Now, since this is pre-Baroque and the equal temperament system , something needed to be done about playing a keyboard in all keys. And the above instrument is the most fantastic answer ever. A keyboard with both A# and Bbs too. Plus all of the other enharmonic black notes added in for good measure. It is clearly horrendous to play. But the tuning of the piece is audibly very precise, and almost wrong for our ears. THis is a wonderful video, and I thank the ground that JS Bach walked on that the Equal Temperament is the system that we all use.

[@roycevanbeethoven]

There is plenty of historical evidence that Bach, as well as many composers of the time, disliked using equal temperament, since it does not allow for emotive key changes. Where do you get your idea from?

[@macbird-lt8de]

I have 33-1/3 records with liner notes for wtc that say that it’s Bach composing specifically for 12tet. Since then I’ve heard that it is not true. Hard for us to know, we weren’t there. We need notes, letters, diaries etc. to form opinion.

[@NeptuneatDawn]

Neat! What is the tuning? How many pitches per octave. Do the upper and lower keyboards have notes in common?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

It's 31EDO, so there are 31 pitches per octave, dividing the tone into five parts. The diatonic semitone ("mi-fa") is three of these parts, the chromatic semitone is two. The keyboard has 36 keys per octave, therefore there are five redundant pitches that are used in a way to increase the playability.

[@j.claudiodiveroli711]

@@JohannesKellerCembalo ... indeed, and not only 31EDO produces all sharps and flats and double flats/sharps, but also major thirds tha t are (but for a neglibigle difference) pure. It is meantone rendered circular, the best sounding temperament ever ... provided you have a 31-keys-per-octave keyboard, that is, and negotiate its significant difficulties for the player.

[@Yzzlthtz]

thank you so much for this

[@tuhg.6797]

Thank you very much for this excellent work!

[@musimedmusi8736]

Astonishing.

[@TonyBittner1]

Amazing! 🎼🎶

[@JC-gu5cf]

I'd like to try a keyboard like that, someday 🤔

[@edwardhackney9136]

Whew! Thank you.

[@eladhevron7057]

I’m speechless

[@Cleekschrey]

Johannes, please make more solo recordings

[@toddharrop9094]

Wonderful stuff, must be very exciting to play on the archicembalo. I hope to visit Basel in May 2019 and, if so, look forward to meeting you and hearing your work up close. Do you happen to have a video of playing the same piece in 12edo? because it would be a good way to show, by comparison, how modern tuning is less rich and arguably more dissonant, despite being familiar to modern ears.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Thank you for your interest, please do contact me in case you will visit Basel! To play this piece in 12edo wouldn't make much sense, there are simply not enough pitches. It's like having a typewriter with keys missing: you might be able to write some sentences, but nothing can replace missing letters. Plus, I don't see 12edo as something inferior to Vicentino's system, it's just very different and offers qualities of its very own.

[@toddharrop9094]

​@@JohannesKellerCembalo Yes I agree, and I like your analogy, thank you. I meant that playing in 12edo might only be useful pedagogically, to show that G# and Ab are not necessarily enharmonically equivalent when played in this context, compared to most people's experience of today's music and music practice (and instruments).

[@toddharrop9094]

Ahh, but I see Vicentino doesn't only use sharps and flats. Are those dots above some notes to indicate a diesis higher or something like that?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Yes exactly, a dot above a note (like a staccato sign) means that this note is raised by a Diesis, therefore played on the upper manual.

[@fieldomoss]

@@JohannesKellerCembalo Do the dots beneath notes indicate the same? Or a diesis down?

[@장훈님하고싶은거다해]

Wow. Just Wow.

[@MelodyChangDipABRSMCTABRSM]

So cool! Thanks for sharing.

[@PoeticMusicRSG]

Asombroso 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@Pony_ezpumi]

hallucinatory, thank you...

[@dimitrijmaslov1209]

INTERESTING!.!

[@РоманОвчинников-щ4э]

Rather interesting.

[@WiggyWamWam]

What is the difference between the two keyboards?

[@NugNux]

the chromatic notes is difference between sharp and flat

[@roycevanbeethoven]

They are tuned apart by a diesis

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

​@@roycevanbeethoventhis is the correct one

[@theophilos0910]

Fix’d tone keyboard instruments like harpsichords, clavichords, virginals, organs etc. have always had temperament problems so the ‘split keyboard’ where accidentals are set at 45-55 cent quarter-tones (rather than modern semitones of equal 100 Pythagorean cents each) solve a lot of just-intonation issues - it is said that the great Handel perform’d occasionally on split keyboards and apparently took to it like a duck to water but it would take a lot of practice & exposure to such a keyboard for me to feel ‘comfortable’ - thankfully trombones, saqbuts, with ‘slides’ etc. as well as string’d instruments such as the violin family down to the gran basso or the human voice don’t have an issue of ‘stealing 23 cents here or adding 23 cents there on the fly’ but keyboard players are kind of stuck these days with 12-tone equal temperament - although many organs built in the 16th & 17th centuries have sets of ‘stops’ to adjust their keys to ‘quarter tone mean temperament’ or ‘Pythagorean temperament’ or ‘just temperament’ or even Bach’s preferr’d ‘well-temperament’ systems … The great Viennese Kapellmeister Johann Joseph Fux (in 1725) admitted in his Gradus : ‘We are fast approaching full acceptance of a 12-tone equally spac’d temperament of 100-cents per semitone, tho’ this was not the usual praxis of our ancestors …’ so even Fux saw the writing on the wall despite his reverence for the musical vocal approach of his hero Palestrina - who with a Capella vocal music for the Church didn’t have to worry as much about 1/8 tones as the human voice can adjust itself up or down as required …

[@christophedevos3760]

A little request: play Willaert's 'Quid non ebrietas' on this instrument.

[@sh1r013]

I wan to be able to write music in 36 edo like this but I don't know where to start in learning

[@sh1r013]

can someone give me some advice?

[@workpine9195]

I mean I have this from Vicentino but it's in 31 and not 36 Genus, Species and Mode in Vicentino’s 31-tone Compositional Theory Jonathan Wild And this but also 31, which can help a lot too ABOUT 31-TONE EQUAL TEMPERAMENT Paul Rapoport

[@sh1r013]

thank you!@@workpine9195

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Nice, go for it. This isn't equal temperament though i think

[@sh1r013]

@@TentacleTerrorMusic its not an edo, i liked it tho, i made a few little pieces, i would definitely say that a lumatone would make it a lot easier to mess around with.

[@user-tp7wi4lt2b]

I like to think that the musicians that came up with this in the medieval times used to geek out over microtonality and felt just as avantgarde as they do today lol

[@imacat8476]

Medieval was over 400 years before this, this is the renaissance.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Equal temperament didn't exist. In medieval times they used pythagorean tuning. Plus, this is the renaissance, they used meantone.

[@TheDominator]

this is damn cool

[@KeyGuy88]

Wow and i though Giant Steps was something!!! Phew...!

[@felipegarcia-hz8pj]

This is wild

[@therobotFrom94]

Nobody let King Gizzard find this instrument

[@VicenteSanches]

Hi! Do you have any bibliography on tuning and acoustics to indicate? I'm really interested in this.

[@AmandaKaymusic]

12Tone released a clip on KZbin this week that covers a bit about this 31 tone octave tuning.

[@syrinx9196]

Where are other performances on this instrument? I prefer it to the 24 note instrument in your other videos. Is there a CD of music from this Archicembalo anywhere?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Please check out the KZbin channel of Studio31. We are preparing a CD recording with the Arciorgano and we are going to publish a bunch of videos within the next months. www.projektstudio31.com

[@Alex-oq6vt]

there were instruments like this, I mean with double black keys?

[@pollosasadosalcarbon]

yeah, that's why we have two different names for the black keys

[@purplrshadowyay]

What temperament is this? Is it meantone? If it's meantone, what comma?

[@bifeldman]

Just brilliant.

[@dbadagna]

Fascinating! Could you add how many keys/pitches there are per octave to the video description?

[@AmandaKaymusic]

31

[@DannyTom-c1u]

that C major is so coughing sharp

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Let me guess, did he play it on the upper keyboard?

[@СергейЛенков-б2г]

Thank you! Impressive! Are there any record available on CD or for download?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

We are preparing recordings with these instruments. Please check out www.projektstudio31.com and feel free to subscribe to the newsletter to keep informed about our activities!

[@artofmusic303]

All about the archicembalo: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archicembalo

[@peglegnoid6139]

Mr.Keller How would playing a Shepard Tone/Scale work out ?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Interesting question - please give me more information about your idea and I will try it on the instrument!

[@Ekvitarius]

I think by Shepard tone Pegleg is referring to an audio illusion that either sounds like a constantly rising or constantly descending pitch. I’ve heard it done on instruments but the affect isn’t as good as with digital audio. Here’s a video explaining how it works: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iILPo4aso6xmmsk

[@dannyundos8927]

What is the tuning? 17edo and 19edo?

[@keenanpepper]

It's extended meantone that's close to 1/4-comma. May or may not be exactly 31edo... it doesn't really matter because the music (as out-there as it is) doesn't go completely around the 31edo circle of fifths.

[@raenfox]

How incredibly strange. It sounds out of tune half of the time, even drunk sometimes, but still strangely beautiful.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

You, my friend, are on your way to become a microtonalist

[@fnersch3367]

This is the first time I've heard the Archicembalo. The lack of a temprament reference in a given composition is somewhat disconcerting.

[@AmandaKaymusic]

You may enjoy this week's 12tone clip that includes this pre-harpsichord tuning system of 31. It is funny to think about how new 12TET is considering how right and natural it feels to the mind's ear when it is a very tempered scale.

[@LuizBHMG]

How to write/read this music? It looks like it's written as standard chromatic music...

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Please note the dots (like staccato articulation). These mean that the notes with dots are raised by the interval of a Diesis (roughly a fifth of a tone). With this sign you can actually easily notate all necessary pitches (in this case 31 per octave).

[@LuizBHMG]

@@JohannesKellerCembalo thanks! And beyond that is there a difference between, for example, C# and Db?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

@@LuizBHMG Yes, that's the same interval, also a Diesis (128:125).

[@LuizBHMG]

@@JohannesKellerCembalo amazing! But I'm counting 36 octave divisions, not 31. Are there 7 reapeted keys? It looks that you're not using the set of sharp keys on the bottom keyboard at the back side...

[@LuizBHMG]

Actually on both keyboards I think...

[@louise1595]

when i close my eyes it sounds like a guitar

[@Axadn]

Wicked.

[@allrequiredfields]

I think there has to be a way for this to sound more appealing and natural to our ears. I think modulating with notes that are right next to each other, or playing a part in one then immediately playing the almost same part just up a quarter step just doesn't work, but perhaps large intervallic jumps when changing tuning like that could sound more natural.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

This is not a 1/4 step, but a diesis (roughly a 1/5 step).

[@shawncharton9416]

Who built this instrument?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

This is the reconstruction of Nicola Vicentinos Archicembalo (described in his treatise 1555) made by Formentelli in 1974, lead by Marco Tiella.

[@gustavomayor8595]

that's hot

[@emilgreilert5734]

If I didn't know what was going on here I'd think it was a warped record or something.

[@michaelkelly5625]

16th century LoFi

[@serjaoba]

Cruz credo

[@SarahRoseStiles]

Desafinado !

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

No

[@jamespeterson4275]

Dat spicy chrommed just past 10 seconds in tho

[@michaelmiller1215]

ARE. typo!

[@wigwagstudios2474]

I like and hate how this sounds lol

[@DragonForce1393]

that was....weird?

[@kjmeyers86]

I wonder if JS Bach would've embraced this if he'd had enough money to buy one.

[@FunkyRezable]

Guys, you should start listening to some techno or other electronic music if you like microtonal stuff.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Sevish, beheld and fastfast are great.

[@FunkyRezable]

@@TentacleTerrorMusic yeah bro

[@barnabasszabolcs8708]

It sounds off-tune to me. Are the strings properly tuned?

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

Yes the instrument is tuned just fine, but in a system that might sound unfamiliar: the fifths are smaller than the ones on a piano, and the major thirds are pure (the ones on a piano are considerably larger than pure). This probably creates the impression that something is out of tune.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

​@@JohannesKellerCembalois this 1/4 comma meantone or 31EDO?

[@Alix777.]

Well...my ears hurt...

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Westerner spotted

[@Alix777.]

@@TentacleTerrorMusic the composer of this piece was not a "westerner" ?

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

@@Alix777. Technically yes, but not being able to appreciate music in a different tuning or time signature than you're used to is typical of modern westerners

[@WinrichNaujoks]

Kein Wunder, dass sich das nicht durchgesetzt hat. Mir wird davon schlecht.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

It did catch on, dumbass.

[@Alfalfa_Male]

That's the weirdest guitar I've ever seen

[@Appdbxjishevvdbncjjfikrkrbxbbn]

Jail

[@michaelmiller1215]

As an amateur singer, organist, and clarinetist, whose ears ate used to equal temperament, the inconsistent intervals, made all the more pronounced due to the accidentals, made me cringe!

[@RodrigoFernandez-td9uk]

My post-Bach ears can't stand it ...

[@jimbo2629]

Some of those intervals sound dissonant. Good job we have Bach.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Except this was composed in the Renneissance, not the baroque period. Second of all, dissonant ≠ bad.

[@Whatismusic123]

Random noise. Just because something unusual is made in the renaissance or middle ages, doesn't mean it's good, in fact, the exact opposite is true.

[@Whatismusic123]

@wooshifgay462 that's just a ridiculous excuse. Something being microtonal doesn't make it random noise, something being microtonal but poorly composed and performed does. Our ears adapt bozo, microtonality isn't "outside the grasp of our modern western ears", you just need to use it well. And sorry to say, a great majority of composers in the past are not competent in the slightest, including this one. People who only listen to pentatonic mudic would *not* find standard western music horrible. It is merely a belief based on what you've been told by others, based upon zero empirical evidence. It's just some nonsense the incompetent ethnomusicologists made up to justify their delusional beliefs.

[@Whatismusic123]

@wooshifgay462 WHERE did I say microtonal music was bad??? Where? Please point it out to me. *this piece is garbage.* grow up dude, you're not "more culturally inclined" or "more connected with humanity" just because you delude yourself into enjoying nonsense like this. This is microtonality done poorly.

[@workpine9195]

@@Whatismusic123 I think it is an excellent piece, do you mean "microtonal done right" is like a mapping of 12 edo composition into something like a ji or something less dissonant than 12 edo? I mean I completely if your standards are like sevish and collier, classical cannon in werckmeister and Neely you're fucked up dude, and btw someone in the past said that Bach was so extremely complex that is just random noise outside of the music of the time

[@Whatismusic123]

@@workpine9195 most inoherent paragraph in the world right here. I understand nothing of what you're trying to communicate.

[@workpine9195]

@@Whatismusic123 I'm not saying that microtonality means good music cause I'd heard some trash out there that is so stupid just laughable, I mean if you're trying to say all music outside 12 which is almost all human history, you're wrong, and if you categorize "music made right" is a problem, and the standards aren't universal, and your entire music background is just a standard that isn't that great

[@davcar23]

No no, I could not really finish watching, it was so uncomfortable to me 🥺

[@Seychaspomru]

Дичь

[@j-music2613]

Eugh brother eugh, was is that

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

The beautiful meantone temperament, idk what comma (the most common was 1/4 comma). Major 3rds are perfectly tuned in meantone (any comma), whereas they are not in 12 tone equal temperament.

[@inaciofilho4106]

it sounds out of tune haha

[@inaciofilho4106]

@wooshifgay462 it was a joke.........

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Lmao ​@wooshifgay462

[@MilsteinRulez]

Kind of makes me seasick listening.

[@johannesockeghem6299]

I get sick from the constant changes of pitch 🤢, I prefer just meantone and not so many different changes. No wonder it never had a success, it sounds strange and not really nice, sorry, my opinion

[@Lauschangreifer]

Played incorrectly for sure! Or the instrument is out of tune.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

There might be plenty "wrong" with my playing (speed, sense of polyphony, ...), but when it comes to the precise pitches it is quite spot on what the composer (Nicola Vicentino) describes for specifically this piece. There is hardly any room for doubt here. Except that it should be performed by four singers, maybe supported by this instrument, or not.

[@Lauschangreifer]

​@@JohannesKellerCembalo this interpretation sounds good: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqiQn6GGpMeml7c There is something wrong with your instrument or with your understanding of the matter - I'm sure.

[@JohannesKellerCembalo]

This is actually quite interesting! In that other video the instrument is tuned exactly the same way, but of course the music sounds entirely different since it's performed vocally, as it should be the case for this piece. But the intervals you are hearing are the same (apart from some local inconsistencies in the vocal intonation).

[@confusedflourbeetle4734]

Is it bad that this sounds very out of tune to me?

[@frfrchopin]

No, it's natural to feel that way. It sounds like it's out of tune because you are accustomed to listening to the tuning system that is dominant today, which divides the octave into 12 parts while this one divides the octave into 31 parts. If you keep listening to it though, you become familiar to it.

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Yes, very. You have a severe case of western ears. Seriously though, it's normal if you've listened to western 12TET music your entire life. Just try to listen to some microtonal music (different ETs, Justly tuned harmony, old meantone pieces and so on). Trust me, you'll get hooked.

[@ignaciofernandez5876]

me resulta desagradable musicalmente

[@hk1053]

No way this is how it thought to be performed 😅😅

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

Yeah it is.

[@kodygoad9711]

I have a hard time believing this. There is nothing in that score that suggests anything “microtonal”. I know it’s a modern score, but come on.

[@marnenlaibow-koser981]

I assume this is in the context of Vicentino’s works about tuning theory, so the temperament would presumably be explained in the treatise. The dots over notes seem to indicate switching keyboards (and thus function as accidentals).

[@elbschwartz]

The score is absolutely microtonal, and the composer was very explicit about what he intended. Read down the page for a scan from the 1555 treatise showing what his notational system looked like: www.google.com/amp/s/coloraturaconsulting.com/2020/05/23/composer-biography-nicola-vicentino-1511-c-1576/amp/

[@retromograph3893]

Damn, sounds so out of tune! …..

[@TentacleTerrorMusic]

This temperament gets many intervals closer to JI than 12TET, so it's more in tune.