Vlog #13 Hangboards - What to Measure?

"What gets measured, gets managed". Measuring aspects of performance in sport is a good thing, but only if you are measuring the right things and interpreting the data correctly. In this vlog, I draw attention to potential problems with performance metrics in climbing, especially related to basic finger strength, both at an individual level and with normative group data.
In the video I talk a lot about fingerboarding. The fingerboard I designed and I'm using in the video is this one, The Edge: www.davemacleo...

[@climbermacleod]

Hey folks sorry for the wait on Edge boards after the batch in the video above sold out so quickly. I just collected another large batch yesterday so we should be sorted for stock now. www.davemacleod.com/shop/edge

[@spacemartian7936]

Anyone else impressed by the climbing prowess of Stanis Baratheon?

[@1989SeanSmith]

Completely agree Dave. Just got back from a year-long sport climbing trip and have managed to break into 8a grade. However, after getting back to the fingerboard following all that time away, I'm weaker than i've been in years. Technique can definitely be massively overlooked, especially by those who predominantly climb indoors. Great video's, really enjoying them!

[@user-dg9ti5gq4e]

Getting much better at talking on camera dave, really enjoy these videos.

[@willemjohannes9007]

Some great concepts and ideas that I had never considered before wrt climbing training and data collection - specifically the idea of Goodhart's Law. Great video.

[@petarchalamov]

awesome video, thanks!! So many people blast about "data" in the training programs without actually knowing how to interpret it! Very refreshing to see and hear somebody who is fluent in both topics!

[@McDGuitars]

Love my Edge fingerboard!

[@shinrarango]

sitting at home with an A2 ring pulley watching hangboarding vids cos im a clearly a masochist 😂

[@MrTobitobitobitobi]

Very elaborate talk about the possible influences of using data to extrapolate into other fields. I think the most important thing to keep in mind regarding your climbing capabilities is, that humans are vastly complex systems and there are countless factors contributing to your performance. On top of that the usage of our skills is very very subjective but may lead to the same result (route/boulder/trad- graded xx climbed) which makes data comparison very very difficult for the purpose of finding your grade limit

[@MrDziuka]

Nice no nonsense fingerboard and great advice.

[@GJ_0008]

It's always good to question.

[@SparkFromWithin]

Your content is so good. Please keep it coming.

[@tobiasthiel5291]

Great video! I think I know at least one climber of each type you described (with certain strengths and weaknesses in different styles of climbing). More importantly, you made me realise once again what could be a good way to assert my own abilities and to compare myself to other climbers (or not).

[@danielmadden7403]

Very interesting, Dave. Keep the videos coming!

[@tobiasgruber1273]

Thanks for the insights of your theories, which make me think of my strengths and weaknesses as well... to me progressing through the grades it always felt like there is a difference of two to three grades between bouldering and sport climbing, so 7A boulder -> 7b/+ route or 7C -> 8a/+.

[@joolsgrommers1466]

I've had an assessment done in the past. And while the data set comparing me to other climbers with similar goals/grades was quite fascinating, personally I can't see how it would affect my decisions for training. As finger strength is uniquely important to climbing (bouldering in my case atm), as long as my personal 'numbers' are improving I am happy. So I set goals which are something like 'hang for X seconds with Y weight', and when that is achieved, I'll try and work towards a different (but not too different) goal. Could be X+2 with Y, or X-2 with Y+10 etc. As long as over time, things are slowly progressing. I can kind of see why coaches would want metrics to base methods for larger numbers of climbers on, but individuals would/should(?) just be comparing their progress to their logs?

[@torgrimmy]

Brilliant! Absolutly brilliant!

[@climbscience4813]

Hi Dave! I totally agree that measuring climbing technique directly is really too difficult to be applied in practice right now. However, I think part of that what you talked about in your video can give you a very good indication about this. Say, you have one cohort of climbers, of whom you know that they are technically very skilled and another cohort that is at the same level of strength, but not very skilled in the discipline you are trying to improve (trad, sport, bouldering,...). Now you have two data sets that you can compare yourself to and see where your climbing grade is compared to your strength. To me, that is a good practical measure of which aspect you should be working on the most. Edit: And it gives you a good indication of your level of technique. However, this leads me to another question that I have: How do you actually measure your climbing performance? I know it might sound stupid, but I think that there are so many factors in place that determine if I redpointed a route, that it is a very deceptive way of measuring performance. I could have just gotten better at that very route, or I probably figured out the missing piece of beta to come through the crux etc. etc.. To me, a measure that I often look at is the average grade of the 3 hardest routes that I can climb in a session of about 4 hours. In my experience that correlates well with my potential to climb something hard and my feeling about my own fitness. The moonboard is a good indicator for bouldering, but I think the technique aspect is very specific to the angle and the setup, so I am not sure about that. What is your take on that? Do you have a different method for these assessments than redpointing or going by feel?

[@climbermacleod]

How do you know your climbing cohorts differ in technical ability though? I mean in a quantitative way. I measure climbing performance as an integral of many different observations made on an ongoing basis. Some quantitative and simple, some qualitative and subtle and some in between. My performance on a Moonboard does not tell me very much at all about how likely I am to find the easiest way up a V14 on granite, Gneiss, Sandstone, Schist. In other words, it's not straightforward.

[@climbscience4813]

@@climbermacleod I agree, it's really not straight forward. I guess one could theoretically do a comparison along a very large group of people with different backgrounds and separate them into groups of people with different strength levels compared to their max. climbing grade. The problem with that approach would be that there is really not one measure of strength, but many different ones. In my view, the "best" way to go about this would be to use a predictive model for your climbing performance based on strength tests and anatomy. However, instead of simply giving you a grade, it would give you a percentage of people with similar stats that climb harder (or less hard). If you are at 25%, it is probably a good idea to work on your strength, whereas 75% would tell you that your technique is probably not so good. This would of course only work if the data set for the model has a very broad range of different people in it and it would still depend on the choice of different cohorts...

[@jsztaudynger7624]

Goodhart's law, excellent analogy!! Applies as well for the notion of "grade as a goal" (without further ado) imho...

[@JustinMarsan]

I'm part of the people who would have asked about the depths and while I understand your point, I still kind of disagree so here's why : Your point that all that matters is that you go hard on yourself and progress will happen makes sense, and it might work well for your. I for one like to have a specific goal for my session, a weight to aim for, or in hangboarding most of the time a designated weight and a time goal to hold on. The idea of doing one-arm hangs with another arm on something else to help without measuring it is insane to me... Like really I don't understand how anyone would consider this option... It's the same reason I've never managed to work with bands either... So yeah, that's personal preference, you like to do whatever is hard on that day and see what happens over time, I like to focus on the task at hand : hang Xkg, or hang on for X seconds... Different tastes. Now another reason I would ask is that I would be using your board with added weight or removed, with one or two hangs. With a lowest rung at 15mm, I'd need to add quite a bit of weight for it to be challenging, and that easily becomes a pain to deal with, while I'd have to add just a little bit of weight on a 10mm or 8mm edge, which would be equally hard but just as easy to manage, switch during sets, etc... So yeah, I see your points, but IMO you're missing the point of people who care about edge depth, it's not about comparing to another board (radius makes too much difference anyway) it's just so that one can plan as precisely as they like when it comes to their training...

[@alpinejonny]

I get where you are coming from, but I think Dave is speaking to the fact that measurements alone do not equal grades. Personally, i've climbed 8a, but i've only bouldered around V6ish, and i'm definitely one of the weakest 8a climbers you will ever meet, particularly compared to my friends who have climbed the same grade as me in the past. Point is, which is what I think Dave is trying to say, is that while precise measurements and a data driven approach to training is a good thing, it's not everything, and the school of thought and tactics that are formed from ones peer group are going to have a significant effect on how this data is interpreted. He's not saying that your approach is wrong, he's saying that there are many other important factors to consider.

[@cdd1craig]

Your goal of aiming for a specific weight is irrelevant on a session to session basis. Are you going to not try as hard without that goal? As for the rung size i prefer one arm hangs as they train stabilization and require more engagement in the arms and shoulders but each to there own

[@JustinMarsan]

@@alpinejonny Yeah, and I definitely get that, but I find it a bit simplistic to just go around and say "it doesn't matter"... I mean we're talking about the board he's selling, and about how you'll be able to use that to improve your climbing... Wanna buy a car, oh it doesn't matter how fast it goes, if you knew you'd want to go faster anyway when really you should want to go from point A to B... Well yeah, sure but the depths of the edge is definitely an important part of board selection, the absence of a jug is an issue to me, the fact that the lowest rung is 15mm deep means at some point you will have to do one-arm hangs, or attach the equivalent of your bodyweight to be really challenged, which again to me is an issue (I find repeated one-arm hangs to get painful on the shoulders and having lots of weight on the harness to be annoying)... I get the point regarding training and tracking, I just dislike how he dismisses people who ask the question while he's actually selling the board !

[@JustinMarsan]

@@cdd1craig No usually I don't try as hard when I'm not face with a difficulty I don't believe I should be able to overcome, so setting weights in advance, based on previous attempts progress and all is important to me. If you've ever tried to FA a problem, you can quickly get discouraged if you can't figure out a beta that works, and think it's either too hard for you or maybe not even possible. When you know it's been done and know the grade is something you've done before you could be more inclined to keep trying and find some other ways... At least that's how it works for me... Also I enjoy climbing, I can't do it as much as I want so I enjoy the time I spend researching training regimens and planning my workouts... I agree with your point on shoulder stabilization and engagement for one-arm hangs but they ofter get painful for me, when I've already tweaked my shoulders a little or if I'd doing a lot of hangboarding, and I'd like the ability to do 2-arm hanging on a smaller rung that doesn't require me to use loads of weight like that 15mm would...

[@cdd1craig]

@@JustinMarsan Thats a fair point on tweaked shoulders, it would be hard to get the right weight addition. I personaly prefer adding weight to about a 12 to 15mm edge. Honestly i dont find the micro 10-6mm holds good for hangs, extra pain and friction dependence without much benefit over adding more weight to a larger hold. As long as its still a half pad or less

[@MrLinknel]

Just watching your interview with Neil Grasham, was wondering if you would be up for doing a video talking about nutrition or at least just the basics (i understand its very subjective to the individual) ? love your videos keep them up!

[@climbermacleod]

I will be doing many in due course. First (small) one is almost done.

[@ryan.3950]

your videos are awesome, could you do a video on how to recognise the onset of finger/ knuckle injuries for new climbers to be able to distinguish between an injury or tweek and just tired fingers?

[@climbermacleod]

I discussed this in Make or Break as well as I could at the time. It was a more general discussion of interpreting pain signals in a training context rather than just fingers. Did that discussion leave you with more questions? Let me know and I'll try and address them.

[@ryan.3950]

@@climbermacleod thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I'll try and check that out.

[@samschwinghammer6892]

One way to measure teqnique might be to compare the amount of time a climber can spend climbing up and down an easy route divided by the max time that the climber can hang off a bar to account for endurance. Just a thought to discuss...

[@LukeRockCimber]

Dave you hit us with the pump fake this morning!

[@climbermacleod]

Sorry I had to fix something in it. One of the graphics didn't export properly and didn't notice at first.

[@paulroberts3564]

Total agree! Well said

[@133_D]

Would these hangboard sizes be suitable for a beginner? I've only recently got into climbing, mostly bouldering, for about 2-3 months until this this lockdown happened.

[@climbermacleod]

Yes. See my latest video kzbin.info/www/bejne/kGari4eEabKFY9E

[@Cacovangor]

As per usual, thought provoking video about usage of metrics in an exceedingly complex activity. I find the common metric for hangboarding is not edge depth or angle or similar but when to begin. My answer has always been similar as with any other training whether arcing, campusing, or similar and this is when “X” becomes the limiting factor in progression, in this case “contact strength”. This, I think, parallels the ideas here about being unable to simply measure an X long hang on Y depth to be sufficient to climb Z grade. Thoughts on the idea of when to include hangboarding for either the first time or within a training cycle?

[@batcathatsatchat]

Do you specifically for pinch strength and how?

[@rockiesbouldering]

Hi Dave. Great vid! Can you comment on the recent trend for hangboards, and the users themselves, to pursue smaller and smaller edge sizes? Several board makers actually add the mm size below the hold. People seem quite happy to hang onto 10mm holds - but is this actually counterproductive? Thanks from Canada (where you would find a sizeable market for your own boards 😀

[@climbermacleod]

I send hangboards to Canada most days! There is not enough science to give a definitive answer on the benefits or otherwise of really small holds. My hunch is that for someone doing a balanced range of hang boarding and bouldering on small holds, it may not matter all that much. However, I do think its important to be used to small holds. Neuromuscular learning is a big part of strength development.

[@Dirwinx]

Love this videos

[@outsideboxer1448]

what you said about the shift of whats normal fingerstrength vs technique on a given grade over time is very interesting to me. for example I am a beginner, been climbing for half a year and dont have much oportunity to climb more than say once a week on average - so my progress on technique is rather poor. but I'm itching to improve my climbing, so at home ive incorporated fingerboard training in my regular fitness routine

[@themeatpopsicle]

is that "NHxxx.." mark a UK mark for sustainably-sourced wood? is it from a well-managed forestry program or something similar?

[@climbermacleod]

It's the Ordnance Survey grid reference for the source tree. This board came from an area west of Inverness. The Scottish Working Woods logo is a licensing scheme for producers who practice sustainable operations in Scotland.

[@denislejeune9218]

Any plan for a MacLeod vlog on technique?

[@climbermacleod]

I doubt there will be a climbing related subject I will not get into on this vlog.

[@denislejeune9218]

@@climbermacleod Oh I see. That leaves you a bit of leeway then, good.

[@alexbiale]

Are you planning on making any more Edge boards available?

[@kevin_howell]

Definitely need one! Shame they're out of stock at the moment!

[@climbermacleod]

Last one went out this morning Kevin. A little quicker than we expected! Not to worry, the next batch is expected pretty soon. Drop me a line - I can ping you when they arrive if you like.

[@kevin_howell]

Dave MacLeod that would be great! 👍🏻

[@maken6044]

Hello Dave great video as always! would you mind telling me what those fluro orange holds are on your wall? Thanks!

[@climbermacleod]

Stonesmith Holds. No longer available unfortunately!

[@maken6044]

Thats such a shame those shapes looked great for steep walls @@climbermacleod

[@neilreading990]

I would absolutely agree with what you are saying. I climb once a week either outside or at the wall and so I rely on my fingerboard and strength training at home heavily to gets gains. I have noticed that I am much stronger in training than many climbers, but these climbers out perform me on climbing routes. My brother has said many times to me that for my strength I should be climbing much harder. It would be interesting to get a professional climber to look at where I'm going wrong.I would expect it to be a number of factors.

[@thesvenvids7708]

It's probably because if you're only climbing once a week then you aren't learning the technique to apply the strength you've gained at the same rate that people who climb multiple times a week.

[@neilreading990]

@@thesvenvids7708 ok thank you I'll try harder to more climbing sessions in per week.

[@daveparry9928]

Take that Randall.

[@climbermacleod]

What? I've seen Tom make many of the very same points myself.

[@thellickson]

Do you know of people normalizing finger strength with weight - my assumption would be that strength does not scale linearly with weight?

[@tobiasthiel5291]

I do that. When I measure my finger strength, I measure how much weight I hang totally on each hand. I do that by putting one foot on a scale (the other in the air) and pulling on a rung with one hand. Suppose my bodyweight is 80kg and when pulling the scale shows 70kg, I then pulled 10kg with that particular grip type on that particular hold.This method is universal for every bodyweight. In case you can hang one-armed on the hold type you want to measure, you just add weight (e.g. holding a dumbbell in the other hand) and add it to your bodyweight (Suppose I weigh 80kg and I can hang one-armed with a 10kg dumbbell in the other hand, I pulled 90kg). Hope this answered your question. P.S.: This is not what the video's main target was though. He was saying that finger strength is important, but it's difficult to make assumptions about a person's climbing abilities on the basis of their finger strength.

[@garretehrick6137]

Any one notice Tension Climbing's new hangboard is basically this exact board's design? Must be a good design...

[@charwilliams2928]

Any plans for an interesting vlog Dave?

[@shiro-r4m]

I won't be re-typing my comment from the version you took down so I hope you read it Dave xD Cheers

[@longb1913]

get to the point