Runners: Train by Distance (Mileage) instead of by Time?! Why a Running Coach prefers the miles!

[@rescuedfriendsanimalsanctu8481]

Time has always been my go to

[@jcw5002]

Such a good video! Thank you 🙌🏼

[@SiegeHamster]

Training by distance and pace makes it really easy for me to go way too fast on every run, especially in the age of strava where it doesn't feel good to post something "slow" Training just by time and HR and not even looking at paces lets me be far more honest with my efforts, and not feel bad if my paces are a bit slower on any given day, especially now that I'm trying for 10+ hours of running a week. It has made my running immensely more enjoyable, with my easy days starting in my lower Z2 range instead of constantly towing the upper end of Z2 to make my strava post look faster while "technically staying in Z2" i think the best solution is just to abandon strava...

[@TBasianeyes]

i don't even look at HR or pace on easy or recovery runs, i just do the run to feel the africans have it figured out, you'll see them around town running as slow as possible to do as little work as possible in the set amount of time they have to run. and by slow i mean slooow, these 2:10 marathoners run like 9min/mile on their easy runs.

[@kenleyojones]

@@SiegeHamster Uninstall Strava, because at the end of the day, you're the one running. And abandon zone 2. It's a trend.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

well that sounds like a social media/Strava stress problem that is personal! Truth be told I basically don't look at my watch mile splits/pace or HR on my "Easy Day Runs"...during the run (I also know the Mile Mark locations on my routes). Back before GPS watches I did just run by time and we used to estimate the distance based on how fast we felt we were running! 🤣 An "Easy 49-min" run was "about 7-miles" because we felt like we ran 7:00 pace 🤣....but the point is we were keeping track of mileage and trying to run 7-miles!

[@Vo2maxProductions]

also we use pace a lot in our coaching and Training Plans to SLOW PEOPLE DOWN on their Easy Days! So for "Zone 2" we say "Run 90second to 2-min/Mile SLOWER than your marathon pace....do not get within 60-sec/mile of Marathon Pace!" for example. With pace guidelines it can help people stay in check and not go too fast (i.e. looking at your mile splits so you don't go too fast!)....otherwise when people run on emotions or feel or ego they can go too fast also!

[@SM-wg7ty]

Keep up the good videos 👌🏼

[@Burps___]

Dear Sage. You briefly mention power. Our Coros watches record power, and 2-3 years ago running power was all the rage in KZbin videos. Now, no one uses/discusses running power. Why? What happened to the “big new metric”? Thank you, Coach Sage.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Honestly (and yes I'm still sponsored by COROS) I've never been a big fan of "Running Power." I believe it is absolutely the Gold Standard in Cycling because of the Physics of how it can be measured on a bike.....but in running it's just too variable and not really possible to calculate at an instantaneous level. (it's not like a real Power Meter on a mechanical bike). If you search back on my channel I've done a few talks on this.

[@Burps___]

@@Vo2maxProductions Okay, that makes sense, Coach. Thank you for the reply.

[@GTE_Channel]

Running with power can be a nice metric when Running on the street. For trail running it's pretty useless. The only way to run with power is to use a Stryd. A watch alone cannot calculate power. The Stryd calculates power based on speed, wind speed (a watch cannot measure this), gradient (a watch cannot measure this), and a few specific parameters around your gait, again a watch cannot measure this. I like the Stryd especially for short intervals as it instantly tells you if you are running the correct effort. Also the race prediction is insanely accurate. It does rely on all out efforts in different durations. For easy runs it's useless, but still the latest model gives you a 3d analysis of your footpath wich alows you to see differences between shoes you wear. In the end the actual power number is irrelevant, it's more about the trend.and like Sage said it doesn't measure power like on a bike. It's a calculation based on parameters mentioned above.

[@liljemark1]

Marketing hype goes in cycles. But power still remains being used in running. It's a niche sure, but not gone. Power is pretty useless when measured from wrist and is somehow GPS based, but with pods (Stryd and competitors) it is a consistent metric. You want consistency when you train for weeks and months. Look at sports scientist research from the past few years and you'll see pod based power is very accurate and consistent at estimating vo2max. Of course people have ran and improved for decades without power metric so HR and pace are usable, but power is there are well.

[@liljemark1]

​@@GTE_ChannelI wouldn't go as far as saying power is useless for easy runs. If you use Stryd, you'll get a good number to go below during easy runs. Some are so honed in with their bodies that going actually easy on easy days is doable, but even Sage has soooo many videos on importance of easy running which goes to show that people over-do their easy.

[@msandiford93]

Very interested in the fueling video, definitely food for thought!

[@Kevin-cf8uu]

It probably just comes down to how we like to measure things and how generalizable it is. Distance and pace is much easier to coach than something like time and effort. Prescribing workouts based on a certain distance/pace is easy to transfer from runner to runner regardless of how good that person is. When it comes to time/effort there's a lot more subjectivity from person to person. Great video though! Shows Sage's depth of knowledge. I could definitely see time/effort making more sense for ultra trail running compared to road racing.

[@kenleyojones]

Time vs distance depends on the runner. But if youre training for a particular distance, i think distance should be a main factor in training for specificity. Its a marathon, not a 2-8 hour see how far you can go run. Youre done at 26.2 miles! For aerobic base building, not even thinking about a race distance, then time can be a factor. But it in end, to each their own. Happy running!

[@jtfoo68]

I am a below average amateur runner, I find time base volume suits me better since I started the TAO program managed stay injury free for the last two marathon. Prior to using TAO in 2022, I was on the Pfitzinger beginners plan, and felt the distance base training was too much for me to handle, had shin splint. I came to understand that even though the plan prescribes a say 30km long run at zone2, for an average runner like me (6:30min/km) I would take a longer time than a stronger runner whose zone 2 might be like 4 min/km and hence my trimp score is alot higher.

[@5kribbles]

Great video thanks for expanding on your comments under the other video! I take your point of the importance for training for the goal race distance. And agree that's very important for the long runs to build durability. I might disagree though based on the physiology. The body doesn't really know distance, only time in zones. For high intensity intervals you want the interval to be 4-8 minutes, regardless which pace you end up at based on your personal lactate thresholds. Similarly you will get most of the aerobic benefit of an easy run after 40-60 minutes beyond that the returns are diminishing. As an example if a well trained amateur wanted to emulate Kelvin Kiptums monster 250km/week training plan, it would be impossible to match his distances. But I think if you recalculated his weekly workout by time it could be within reach. Still insane, but at least possible.

[@5kribbles]

Kiptums workout for anyone interested: Mon: Morning 2hr easy, Evening 1hr easy Tues: Morning 1hr track, Evening 1hr easy Wed: Morning 2hr easy, Evening 1hr easy Thu: 1h30-2 hours marathon pace (or 30-40km at marathon pace for you :D ) Fri: Morning 2hr easy, Evening 1hr easy Sat: Morning 1hr track, Evening 1hr easy Sun: 30-40km at "good pace" (or 2h30-3hr for normal humans?)

[@bricemenaugh4828]

Time on feet is always best... especially when starting out. Lydiard talked about this a lot.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Lydiard did coach a lot of super fast runners....it reminds me of the Frank Shorter "Long Run": which was "Run 2-hours OR 20-miles" (but usually the 20-miles always came first!) 🤣

[@Avianthro]

There's one other alternative, and arguably the best of all: Train by strain...physiological strain...the time integral of stress for each session. The beauty of this method is that it enables you to account for the critical factor of how much harder, nonlinearly, it is to run at higher power-speed. Just tracking time or distance doesn't do this. Train by strain, and for the zone of your event. At least 60% of your weekly strain budget should be at your event's expected zone (%FTP).

[@Vo2maxProductions]

"Train don't Strain" 🤣!

[@Avianthro]

@@Vo2maxProductions Training IS straining, carefully performed with progressive overload (incrementally increasing the amount of strain) and proper recovery. If you're not straining, you're not training, right?

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

...for the same reason you don't want to train by heart rate because that's highly variable depending on factors such as environmental and personal wellness.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

I'd actually say that's a totally different subject. (I like accurate heart rate data and think it can be very valuable actually). It's more variable between individuals for sure though (i.e. the "Formula of [220-age] as a Max HR" doesn't work for a lot of people.

[@MyFatAdaptedLife]

@Vo2maxProductions Thx Coach

[@mikevaldez7684]

​@Vo2maxProductions But for beginners or intermediates and over 60 runners who didn't run in their youth, except a little in high school cross country ( like me😅), I'd say time is a much better metric, especially if you're not into racing but running for health👍😢

[@ultrarnr4454]

My coach, Olympian Mike Manley (1972) had me switch over to minutes back in 1984. I've been using minutes ever since. The only time I use distance is say when I want to run a 25+ mile training run and it's been awhile since I've done that distance so I have no idea on what my time would be.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Ah a 3km SC guy! what event distance was your focus?

[@Lion_McLionhead]

Lions have been topping out at 20 miles in 3 hours. Getting comfortable in the marathon distance would require many 5 hour days which aren't possible, so the marathon distance has forever been a disaster.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Lions like to sprint 5km and shorter events better maybe? 20-miles in 3 hours is pretty good though!

[@jbsnyder1736]

Tomayto , Tomahtoh! Six of one, half dozen of another!

[@lilyw.1788]

Question: A local sports doctor who is well versed in the world of road running made a bold statement that road running is remarkably harder than trail running and beats up your body a lot more . What is your take on that? Esp when you are both a very fast road runner and trail runner. If you’re training for your full potential performance for road vs trail , which will be harder on your body ?

[@ultrarnr4454]

I've been running for 49 years. I personally switched over to all trail running after back surgery in 2007 because the roads beat me up more. I can run a lot more on trails then I can on the roads and feel less beat up.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Oh for sure road running is super hard on the body. If I just wanted to be "healthy" I'd only race 10km-half marathon distances on smooth/soft grass and run much lower mileage (maybe 30-45 miles a week). I don't view racing hard road marathons on hard surfaces as being a very healthy thing (trail running is much more "natural" and what our body was built to do).

[@jjjjames5824]

Sage is a great runner/coach (and seems like a great guy too), however my take is thay the body really doesn't know pace or miles ar all, only time and exertion, e.g. running or hiking up a mountain for an hour at a given HR or level of effort you're going to cover way less distance but the training effect and stress on the body is pretty much the same.

[@dominikschrott7412]

I am a real defender of running amounts of time in purposed intensity zone. Because the body doesn't know neother miles nor kilometers, it only knows to deal with the excertion and what energy system it hss to use for bearing up with the effort. And this In base building phase for LIT runs and vo2max workbouts. Always by time. Later on in the ultimate race prep phase you may do intervals or tempo runs by distance.

[@therapygrind]

Amby Burfoot emphasizes the importance of "feel" in running and tuning your body to gauge pace and distance. Christopher McDougall in "Born to Run," describes how the Tarahumara tribe manifests a deep connection between mind, body, and environment that allows them to navigate distance. There are renowned figures in running that support the notion of developing an "internal odometer" is achievable with training.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

@@therapygrind Yes, appreciate both your comments. For sure i am not dismissing the RPE and being able to read your body signals (i.e. "feel the flow" and "feel the thresholds"). Amby Burfoot trained very high mileage though (I've actually met and talked to him in person!). The Tarahumara run as part of their culture and history for survival (and more trail/mountain running at high altitude). But see what i said about "just going by Time" if you were cross training. Sure, you could spin on a bike for 60-min at a HR of 150.......or you could run for 60-min at that same HR. The heart and lungs won't know the difference! Great LT training and aerobic adaptations. However, when you get out on that marathon course and your leg muscles need to pound the pavement for 26.2 miles they will tell you the difference! In running on flats if you are "just increasing your time spend at threshold "then you are also just simply running longer and longer distances too! Btw a lot of our Uptempo or Tempo Run workouts are purely based on Time (i.e. "20-min Tempo Run" or 35-40min "Uptempo Run"). The point of the talk was show casing the importance of the WORK in terms of body Displacement.

[@mikevaldez7684]

​​​@@Vo2maxProductionsok, I see in this talk you're saying you need mileage to run a marathon, sure. But I think a person over 60 will have a hard time recovering from such high mileages( I know I do😊)and you just don't need it for maximum heart health/longevity. These are two vastly different goals, just fitness vs racing marathons. Mine is just good overall fitness, and running 3-5 xs weekly for from 45 minutes to 90 minutes is excellent to achieve that goal 8:21 😢

[@mitchellthornton6393]

The body doesn’t have an inbuilt timer either. It has no idea when you’re going to stop that interval etc.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

@@mikevaldez7684 hey that's great! Yeah I agree for general fitness it doesn't have to be super complicated. Any movement is good! Keep it up!

[@the.trollgubbe2642]

Beginners might benefit more with time based

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Yeah as i said in the video with pure Beginner runners I suggest going by time: i.e. 10 x (1-min jog, 1-min walk), build up to 15, 20-30min continuous minutes to start etc.

[@jaymills1720]

Couldn’t disagree more. If one runner takes 30 minutes for a set distance and another takes 60 the stress and recovery needs are very different. Time and intensity are way better.

[@DrProfX]

@jaymills1720 Exactly, without, as you yourself mentioned, “distance” 30 mins or 60 mins or any time doesn’t mean much … Time over given distance communicates intensity …

[@Vo2maxProductions]

It's not that simple. I could go out and walk 3 miles in 60-minutes or I could run 8 miles in 60-minutes. Am I going to log those "60-minutes" of exercise as being the "same stress?" It was the same time of 60-min! But the work of running was much more intense and much more of a bigger training load/higher training stimulus.

[@MrElectricSkittles]

You're both saying the same thing, wtf 😂

[@scottrobinson4611]

If I’m a slow runner training for a marathon, my 30k long run might take 3.5 hours, but if you ask me to train by time you’d probably limit that to 2.5 hours. I would go in to that marathon wholly unprepared to run for 5 hours. Running by time can be okay, but the argument that “slower runners can take 60 minutes to cover a distance someone else can do in 30 minutes” totally misses the point that the slower runners will also be out for twice as long during the race. If I’m going to be on the course for 5 hours, I’d really want my longest run to be 75-80% of that time.

[@jaymills1720]

@ if you tell a novice runner to run for 3.5 hours your a bad coach.

[@emillsommer-kt4mb]

Time for me.