VORTECH SUPERCHARGER VS TURBO-4.6L 2V MOD FORD

[@cowboy117j]

I can’t thank you enough for doing these 2v videos. I’ve now completed and am daily driving my 98 on a stock pi Romeo motor from a crown Vic. I got ambitious for future power levels and threw a 84/75 billet journal bearing turbo at it. Surprisingly the thing spools by 3800 or so. Cams will be the next adventure. Would love to ask a few questions someday.

[@adambergendorff2702]

I haven't owned a Hot rod in 35 yrs and I still love the content of your videos!

[@CP110]

I helped a friend piece together a vortech supercharger setup on his 04 GT. Had 50lb injectors, SVT focus fuel pump, upgraded MAF, stock cams, stock heads, stock exhaust manifolds, and made around 9-10 lbs of boost. He made around 420ish whp through an auto. I called it the poor mans Terminator lol

[@chadfrench955]

Thank you love the 2v test videos!

[@wellthatdidntwork]

Always love the sbf and mod motor content! Mr holdener im sure you may have heard but eric weingartner at weingartner racing has asked if you could reach out to him to do a few test on the bmp cloverleaf style intake and a few head tests involving his porting. He loves the channel and really would like if you could get with him to work out these tests. You sir really do have the most informative automotive testing channel on youtube!! Keep up the great work and thank you for what you do

[@richardholdener1727]

I sent him my email address but he has not responded

[@wellthatdidntwork]

@@richardholdener1727 thanks, ill get him a reminder!

[@jameshowlett8811]

Love your 4.6 2v videos thanks for sharing happy father's day

[@tturi2]

The thing I like about the vortech, is they have the same throttle response as the stock car, turbo cars will have a more "spongy" pedal response, plus the vortech doesn't reroute hot exhaust manifolds near potentially temperature sensitive parts, just another thing to think about

[@tturi2]

In saying that, I'm going turbo in the future haha, but I really enjoyed the pedal feel of my vortech

[@victorricolucero]

That’s right! And there’s nothing wrong with wanting a vortec. I think they’re a good option. Like the wife could still drive it if you need her to. It’s pradictable.

[@chadkent1241]

I've got twin 57s on a built 03 mach and certainly do not experience a "spongy" pedal. I understand the logic about the linear lbs/power increase is closer to the stock feel from that angle. I prefer the huge torque advantage of the hairdryers and I still have these issues of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords of the "Boost Bash". The turbos out torque'd even the Kenne Bell after 3,000 rpm. Quicker with less maximum boost pressure and AITs, but all boost is good!

[@midnight347]

​@chadkent1241 the modern tvs are torque monsters alot more so than a kb size for size in particular. I'd like to see turbos compared to a gen3r the way they did the test you're talking about I remember that test. I think it would stack up better torque wise and the tvs is pretty damn efficient too for a blower.

[@GapSauceYoutube]

Love the modular stuff, our Boss290's and 315s make reasonable power.

[@TheVenom8343]

Are they made from 4.6 Mod engines? I've just never heard of those so I'm curious sir.

[@GapSauceYoutube]

@@TheVenom8343 We have 5.4L bottom ends, basically a stroker 4.6 with 03/04 Cobra heads modified to take more lift. Mine is running in the 11s with a manual @4100lb raceweight with only basic bolt ons and cams 🙂 7700rpm on the stock pistons and rods with a 4.165" stroke.

[@TheVenom8343]

@@GapSauceKZbin My god that's amazing my man!! Rock on!!

[@Dustinscustoms]

Definitely a great video we all love the 2v

[@sorshiaemms5959]

IM AMAZED AT THE TORQUE OUT PUT OF THESE SMALL CID ENGINES WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE SAME TEST DONE WITH A 323 CID STROKER VERSION WOULD BE INTERESTING

[@geovonibrake2305]

Is that a stoke bottom end

[@randolphniles2332]

Would love to see the 800hp superchargered pi 2v in your book

[@mikehunt7483]

Would you cover the xfi settings with these setups? What's the timing? IAT? Would you walk us through the tuning associated with the builds?

[@XmaXma6]

Check out hp accademy if you haven´t yet, they have alot of very interesting stuff on tuning

[@TheProchargedmopar]

You see Eric Ws video on some possible Intake Manifold testing?

[@TheProchargedmopar]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/a3-2aX2iedKgnpo

[@richardholdener1727]

I provided my email address in his comments but he has not reached out

[@bluecollarbuilds8860]

I'm currently considering building a 2v mustang and this was definitely helpful! Good info as always

[@Ornelas11B]

Start with a 4V.

[@StockTurboN20]

@@Ornelas11B 2V’s don’t suck the 4V is overrated

[@spikeafrica]

As a 2v fan, even I have to submit that the 4v obviously makes more power. But damn the 2v sounds good.

[@miketessarolo1080]

What was the cost difference between the two setups? I'm referring to just the Vortech vs. TT parts, not the block/heads, etc..

[@johnherbold6539]

How bout some twisted wedge heads? You can get crazy airflow out of them

[@richardholdener1727]

YES-THEY WORK WELL

[@triplestangman]

There has been a shift back to centrifugal superchargers for the sole reason of easier tuning.

[@aydenkilpatrick8336]

You should try and find the 4.3 vortex with the orange writing on top Ik they came in 1994 blazers and s10

[@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501]

8th digit W IN THE VIN. 200hp. Mine was a CPI in a 1992 Chevrolet Astro. 342 gear ⚙️. That van was fun to drive😂

[@ironbar9535]

Hey Richard. A while back you did a simulation of a remote mount turbo setup. Can you a video showing the effect of exhaust wrap and turbo blanket on this kind of setup?

[@Jim_Lawrence]

Power Driven Diesel did a blanket back to back test. I believe it was on a 5.9 common rail Cummins, but the concept is still the same. They help boost response, under hood temps... I agree fwiw. I'd like to see Richard tackle this!

[@ironbar9535]

@@Jim_Lawrence I agree. Those graphs make all the difference. Richard really breaks it all down.

[@TJay074]

How about a test with turbos VS a wastegated supercharger

[@MustangFourSix]

Hey Richard I see you usually use the non pi block with pi heads pretty impressive numbers but I was wondering if I have an 02 gt mustang obviously both pi would I see the same numbers or should I take of pi block and get an older non pi block for better compression.

[@richardholdener1727]

it's just the non-PI pistons

[@MustangFourSix]

@@richardholdener1727 so non pi pistons on my pi block would make it more compression gotcha thank you for replying I appreciate it

[@williamking8684]

I wanna see some testing with the trick flow 2v heads

[@Steve69SS396]

This illustrates the importance of the combination not just the engine. My car has an F2 Procharger and it will go over 20 pounds of boost in just a few tenths of a second. No spooling required with a centrifugal.

[@richardholdener1727]

it will only do that if the engine accelerates at that same speed

[@Steve69SS396]

@@richardholdener1727 That's right. On an engine dyno the RPM rate the engine can climb is controlled by the dyno. In a car with a converter that flashes to 5,000+, you get into high levels of boost in a fraction of a second.

[@TheMrmagic101]

​@@Steve69SS396 what do you mean when you say converter?

[@antonpfleger5448]

Build process right now of a 2v. Forged pistons, coyote boss 302 rods, stock crank. Adding blower cams and longtube headers with a vortech v3. Only looking for around 500 whp or so. Won't take much really

[@midnight347]

That combo could push 600 wheel without breaking a sweat. 500 wheel will be child's play

[@OxBlitzkriegxO]

would like to see this test as 4v and ring gaps opened up.

[@evanarthur7535]

Centrifugal blowers could really use a variable transmission to improve the boost curve.

[@timothybayliss6680]

The issue you get into is that the torque converter drive is horribly inefficient. Usually you just gear and cam/spring the car to use the blower, even a stock convertor in an auto with one of these engines would probably start to push through the beams with a foot brake. An auto car, shifting at 6000 with a 4r70w drops hard first to second to less than 3300rpm, it's not very often that a guy with a built engine is caught with his pants down. Getting enough valvespring for a 7000 or even 7500rpm gear change isn't too hard on mod engines especially when you have already spent to have a blower hanging off the front. It's way cheaper to figure out a valvespring package than reconfigure the whole engine accessory drive.

[@seanpenn5059]

What is a good turbo size for a 5.3l twin turbo setup

[@timothybayliss6680]

A 5.3l with cam? Twin ebay gt3582, a gtx3582r is a little more. The cast wheels can make about 500whp each and are some of the cheapest you can find.

[@robvas]

Love the 2V content but we’ve seen these motors before haven’t we? You did the KB with them last time

[@russelljackson7034]

Right on

[@tank19]

How much do both of them cost roughly

[@absolute357]

So...two questions is the bottom end stock on both? What is the cost associated with both?

[@richardholdener1727]

yes on stock bottom end-not sure on costs

[@absolute357]

@@richardholdener1727 thanks for the reply. So do you actually tune others cars? Im at the point im ready to modify the 2v. After watching your vids I'm thinking turbo kit. Ebay turbo for my budget, and most likely cams. The question is to port or not to port lol.

[@craftsman98]

Thanking the 4.6 gods!

[@Willdabeest27]

What about a 4.6 2 valve with 7675 turbo vs t4 s480

[@richardholdener1727]

YES

[@montexanfpv2624]

I love my 96 TBird (62,000 miles), but I wish she had more power much to be desired. I've been contemplating either DOHC swap or boost the old girl.

[@kylejohnson7258]

I feel you brother thinking the same thing about boosting her

[@montexanfpv2624]

@@kylejohnson7258 they would be such badass cars with even 400rwhp...... This 205rwhp hurts my emotions lmfao and of course the pish pah sounds. They are pure blissfulness

[@kylejohnson7258]

@@montexanfpv2624 yes they are I got mine she sounds pretty go I got try duals and no cats or nothing but I gain a lil hp and some better tires and stuff so she rolls a lil difference it’s nothing crazy but definitely noticeable in couple hp gains and do you have snap or Facebook so I can send you some vids cause I would like to show you I got it coming out right at the axel with the piping slanted and used as tips and she sounds so good like a ole muscle car and get compliments all the time

[@aftastosk6016]

Richard, mentioning only that they are "46mm" turbos, is not enough. They may be GT2560, GT2860, with a 0.64 a/r, 0.86 a/r, wastegate at 1 bar, 1.5 bar etc. You need to tell us just a bit more.

[@timothybayliss6680]

I don't know if it really matters, and the wastegate specs don't for data on a Dyno pull really don't. The wastegate was done with a manual controller, meaning there was less than 10lb springs and the boost creep indicates that it's not entirely consistent. They Dyno results tell you it's having issues trying to pull the engine down. The turbos are already spooled at the start of the pull and the pull at higher boost starts at a higher rpm because the brake cannot pull down the engine at the higher torque. If you want to see differences between turbo A/R you need a sanctuary of test conditions and an inertial Dyno or real world datalogging. As far as what 46mm turbos, I am skeptical of significant differences. This test is more than a decade old, these will be cast compressors. The difference in flow, efficiency and inertia of almost any 46mm cast fan will be +/- 5%. The efficiency is the only thing that really matters in this test as the turbos are fully spooled when the run starts and the inertia of the wheel is mostly negated and as they aren't being ran to choke, the peak flow isn't particularly relevant either. The purpose is to demonstrate the difference in power production of two different forms of forced induction operating as similar pressure and the real world consequences of the escalating boost curve.

[@2lotusman851]

I think he proved his point. No other info needed.

[@richardholdener1727]

more info is always better, but both the turbos and Vortech were nowhere near the flow limits and this wasn't a direct comparison between this exact Vortech and those exact turbos (just generic comparo)

[@aftastosk6016]

@@richardholdener1727 Indeed you proved your point that a turbocharger provides a flat boost curve, however we have no idea how big is the gap between the two - for example if these results were made with two 2560s with 0.64 a/r, shit, the difference is HUGE and even more impressive than e.g 2860s with 0.86 a/r.

[@aftastosk6016]

@@timothybayliss6680 he answered that there is no problem to pull this motor below 3500 rpm. It makes sense because these turbochargers are small enough. Because the boost levels are relatively low, the 6+6 cast compressor wheel of the GT series is more than adequate. We needed to have a bit of info about the hotside to have a better idea of how big the gap between the two is.

[@Bozemanjustin]

4.6 l 2 valve? Is that what's in an 06 Grand Marquis The thing has 230 horse from the factory and you're telling me with heads and a cam it's 380 horsepower Is that correct? Or am I missing something

[@richardholdener1727]

factory rating can't be compared to dyno rating

[@Tac_3403]

basically from the factory tests, they have everything from ac condensers to a clutch style fan to power steering pump. when they run these tests on his show they using the bare minimum, freeing up a fair bit of power.

[@midnight347]

@@Tac_3403 yea they aren't running alot of the accessories plus they usually aren't running an exhaust its just straight headers or straight downpipe with turbo applications. That 230 horse 2v op speaks of would prob be 260-270 tested this way.

[@ColinAverill]

Could you twin turbo into supercharger with the 2V pi heads on npi block? What kind of power would that produce?

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@Octavius-qu3pl]

Hi 4.6 stock motor can I twin turbo it , with out it been tuned

[@richardholdener1727]

no-it needs to be tuned

[@skyline8121]

I would like to see roots type supercharger vs centrifugal supercharger in that 2v 4.6L

[@gothicpagan.666]

Was thinking the same thing.

[@richardholdener1727]

watch the next video

[@JohnSmith-qn3ob]

@@richardholdener1727 I'd rather have a twin screw

[@Ricochet1012]

Did these have built bottom ends?

[@richardholdener1727]

stock

[@Ricochet1012]

@ Thanks for the quick reply! Do you have insight on the rumor of these bottom ends being time bombs at 500hp? Also, I love the videos. My buddies and I are engineers and refer to your work constantly when working on our cars.

[@happytimes724]

Why is it that it seems you're able to make great hp numbers when I'm told that if I want anything north of 400whp I need to build the engine up? 2011 P7B (Crown Vic Police) running E85 stock. Please help me understand.

[@richardholdener1727]

that is not necessary-it runs fine with boost and stock short block with boost

[@RHDSIRII]

What are the turbo specs? Compressor/turbine inducer/exducer sizes?

[@richardholdener1727]

it doesn't matter for this test

[@RHDSIRII]

@@richardholdener1727 I was just curious as Im thinking about going turbo on my 4.6 and would like a quick response setup like you show here

[@johnnydaymarine5609]

You should do something with the dodge 3.7 v6

[@jamesgeorge4874]

Take it to the scrapyard, they can barely stay together stock.

[@19jody72]

Was this with a stock non Pi bottom end?

[@richardholdener1727]

vortech was

[@19jody72]

@@richardholdener1727 👊☕☕

[@ghosttheoremproductions5469]

Changing ring gap at those boost levels?

[@richardholdener1727]

YES YOU SHOULD

[@GTfromAG]

More 3Vs plzzz

[@michaelangelo8001]

"aftercooler" At least you got that right. Technically an intercooler is located between sequential turbochargers.

[@richardholdener1727]

I like the intercoolers for my turbo motors

[@michaelangelo8001]

@@richardholdener1727 You don't have any sequential turbo setups. So again, you're actually talking about an aftercooler.

[@XmaXma6]

If you care about acurate terms that much you should call them compund turbos, sequential ones dont have intercoolers either

[@michaelangelo8001]

I do care about accuracy. And yes, sorry... you are correct. 👍

[@jeffschwartz5199]

The turbo engine set up , is capable of handling all that torque ? I realize that you test for power changes and not necessarily endurance . So if you can let me know your opinion 🙂, thanks man for your ingenious testing.

[@richardholdener1727]

are you running them in endurance racing?

[@jeffschwartz5199]

@@richardholdener1727 no regular street and strip abuse .

[@jamespepper2541]

I have a 1997 cougar with the 4.6 and would love to put a turbo on it!!! 😎

[@Tac_3403]

Hi Richard, great video as always. If you had to estimate, about how much would the non pi block with ported pi heads and cam N/A cost to build? looking into doing a similar build, thanks!

[@richardholdener1727]

not sure

[@shaneshane1379]

The 292 is more interesting that no push rod motors. Thrash on the 292 some more.

[@robvas]

If I win the powerball and send you some 2V motors and parts will you do some new tests? 😎

[@richardholdener1727]

what else do I need to test

[@AndyFromm]

👍

[@Hlilii]

Anybody know where to get turbo manifolds for an si (2000) ford mustang

[@richardholdener1727]

they have them already

[@tomcelica]

What is PI?

[@richardholdener1727]

POWER IMPROVED

[@Phil-rs5wl]

What does pi mean?

[@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501]

Performance Improved

[@erwinnijs1]

What I hate more than anything else with centrifugal superchargers is belt slippage.

[@stuartbuckley8720]

Richard, I have a request for you to please consider. A fellow You Tuber named Eric Weingarther does port work and would like to do a test on a non ported VS ported cloverleaf intake. It seems like a great idea but that would be up to you. I follow both of you and hope this gives you a good idea for a new video. I have no connection or affiliation with either of you, just a viewer. Thank you for your show. :^)

[@richardholdener1727]

I spoke with him

[@aftastosk6016]

Also, even two 2860 is a small combination for a 4.6 lt, in that relatively low boost levels that you run you should had two 2871 instead. The disadvantage in boost level in comparison with the 2860 would had been below 3500 rpm. (You don't even show us what is happening below 3500 rpm in the turbocharged engine)

[@timothybayliss6680]

The Dyno break couldn't pull the engine down. The 15psi run starts at a higher rpm than the 10psi run because of the torque limit of the Dyno. If you want to do spool tests with a waterbrake you need a tiny engine, a high rpm engine or both. The K24 might be useful for this because you could stabilize the pull at 2000rpm and let the fan spool during the run. Even then, anything smaller than a gt3582 will spool by 2500 and make the data unreliable.

[@richardholdener1727]

the dyno will easily pull this motor below 3,500 rpm at 15 psi-we just didn't in this testing

[@aftastosk6016]

@@richardholdener1727 well, if there is an advantage of using such small size turbochargers would had been below 3500 rpm in comparison with something bigger, like e.g. 2871, 3071 etc.

[@roguereductionist8147]

Isnt this kinda like comparing the guy with the cane vs the guy with the walker in a foot race? Not exactly apples to apples and trying to dismiss obvious incomparables by saying they arent "even" doesnt cut the mustard. Its just an admission of fault at this point. 2 turbos vs one centri doesnt exactly seem to stack up either. Whats next, will there a 2 stroke vs 4 stroke with each their defining attributes? Maybe gas to diesel? 2 wheels to 4? Really scraping the bottom of the proverbial barrel with this one. No question that he has contributed quite a bit to the consumer market in regards to comparison videos the never satisfied mouth-breathers crave. This one should be tossed into the trash bin of history.

[@richardholdener1727]

you have much to learn about single vs twin turbo with regards to sizing

[@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501]

I would love to twin turbo my 4.6 AWD Mountaineer. Not much room in engine bay. This would be a total sleeper 😴😴

[@PureCountryof91]

If it's a 5r55 transmission.. yikes lol

[@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501]

5r55s 🥶 3rd one😩 original engine😂😂😂

[@MoctezumasRevenge1]

@@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501 what does that job cost? I have an aviator on 165k miles on the original trans.

[@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501]

@@MoctezumasRevenge1 cost for what type of job? Twin turbo setup or transmission replacement?

[@MoctezumasRevenge1]

@@stucklikechucklookinlikewh9501 transmission

[@TheProchargedmopar]

Always BOOST!!

[@texdevildog9174]

oranges to grapefruits

[@unclesquirrel6951]

Personally I blame squirrels

[@corystansbury]

I'll freely preface this comment by saying I have a nearly irrational hatred of centrifugal blowers, but I just can't understand why one would go through the trouble and weight of a boosted setup just to kneecap yourself with a centrifugal. Unless you have a super high number of gears, high stall converter, severe packaging limitations, or class-specific rules that benefit unfairly one setup over another (note: I recognize these are all real circumstances), centrifugals just seem to be a D- form of F.I. Rant over.

[@Jim_Lawrence]

One thing to add to your list of reasons for centrifugal, keeping low RPM torque production low for connecting rod health. Same reason that on the Big Bang motors, Richard runs BIG turbos that won't spool at lower RPMs. For my taste, I 100% agree with what you are saying though. If we could only have response of a twin screw, with the efficiency and high RPM power of a large/proper turbo in one package...

[@colinb5517]

It's by far the most space efficient and easiest to install charger. No exhaust considerations, uses stock intake, bolts on to accessory belt. For many people they make a lot of sense

[@corystansbury]

@@Jim_Lawrence I mean... You can control all of that on a turbo or twin screw as well, but you'd be reducing their benefits slightly. I wish there was more love given to variable vane turbos in the aftermarket. They do what you wish, but Aerocharger is about the only provider and they're quite small.

[@corystansbury]

@@colinb5517 I'd argue that's extremely true for some engines, but not as much for others. One clearly needs a space in the belt path to fit it, whereas a turbo can be placed all over the place. That doesn't diminish the challenges and heat of running pipes to some odd place, but it does make turbocharging easier in some applications.

[@Jim_Lawrence]

@@corystansbury variable geometry turbos have been used in Diesels since like '03, at least in trucks. They've got good and bad honestly. Adding in how to control it is probably the biggest issue with making them readily available. How many parameters are you going to base vane position on? Boost and backpressure for sure, RPM, load, throttle position, etc... Not to mention in a gas application, shaft RPM? Timing curve no doubt needs to change with boost and octane level. I see the benefits, the costs involved need to be passed along to the consumer at that point. And with all that added response, many applications will need connecting rods. That's at least how it works in my head...

[@rdallas81]

Also, what is really left out is the lessons of those who live out lives only in sin, for sin will all perish in sin and history is the only victor. Yet, the writer of history gives clues as to the overall direction of all things past, present and future and the "faith" it takes for all truth to be revealed can only come from the creator, not the creation. Never look to man to understand all things. Look to God. All things in the world are all OF the world and are all deceptions. If you think that you can think yourself into real knowledge is what Stalin and Hitler did. It's what Einstein did...and using their own minds they brought monsters into manifestation. Yet, had they followed their hearts, history would have been very different. Yet, it is that way and for reasons you can never understand because they are not for your understanding, but for the one or ones who God chooses to reveal them to. Yet, you do not have that understanding because you yourself can not choose for yourself to what knowledge is revealed. God Himself chooses His self to whom He reveals Himself to. Not a religion, not a church, not a synagogue....none of those temporary things. Only God. Who is God? You will never know because you look out to the world for answers. You do the same exact things all people have done. Stop looking out, start looking WITHIN.

[@richardholdener1727]

EVERY ONE LIKES BOOST

[@Ornelas11B]

Why a 2v though? No way in Hell I’d start with a 2v build when you can find 4V’s all day.

[@edmundnlemadim8480]

A 2v is a sub 500 dollar motor from the junkyard. Especially NPI... that’s probably 250-400 bucks out the yard. You probably won’t be able to get a B or C head 4.6 for anything less than triple to 4x that cost, there’s less availability, no aftermarket head castings so head flow improvement is via porting service only, more expensive, longer turnaround than buying aftermarket castings, none of which helps produce content like this video in a timely manner. I’m sure if you provide him a 4 valve engine for testing, he’d feature it on his channel 🤷🏾‍♂️😉

[@P71ScrewHead]

@@edmundnlemadim8480 said exactly what i was gonna say, plus, 2v FTMFW!! Lol.. Also, ppl have more love for the mighty 2v than the 4v, mainly cuz its an underdog vs everything else, only broke ppl don't build a 2v..lol jk..

[@midnight347]

@@edmundnlemadim8480 there isn't a need for aftermarket heads for the 4v the stock stuff is awesome and flows better than trickflow stuff for 2v so saying there is no aftermarket heads for them is kinda dumb imo. 4v owns period but like you said it costs significantly more because way less availability.

[@Jim_Lawrence]

To add to all the other responses you've received, the 4v had a softer low RPM hit. Knowing what power curve you are after should factor in.

[@montexanfpv2624]

I love my 96 TBird (62,000 miles), but I wish she had more power much to be desired. I've been contemplating either DOHC swap or boost the old girl.

[@richardholdener1727]

both

[@timothybayliss6680]

The mkviii Lincoln is basically a 4.6l dohc AL block tbird

[@midnight347]

Throw a b head 4v in it from a mark 8 be a direct swap then throw boost at that. Swap to a cobra intake manifold if you can find one and make 450 to the tires pretty easily.