War As A Video Game | Metal Gear Solid 2 Analysis (Ep.3) | State of the Arc Podcast

[@ResonantArc]

One extra point to add about the conversation regarding Plissken and "spoilers" is that my first time playing the game--just a month ago for this series--was the Substance version, and then again with the latest HD collection release on PC. Because of this, I didn't see how the original Sons of Liberty release asked players whether they had played the first game or not. If you say that you have *not* played the original, you skip the Tanker sequence and would not have that part of the story for context as you meet Plissken, nor would you recognize the legendary Solid Snake if you were to see him face to face. This definitely changes things, and even in the game's latest release, you could skip the Tanker sequence and go straight to Big Shell. Still, I'm not sure why you would do that, and so under the context of the modern gaming landscape, and considering we have already covered Metal Gear Solid 1 on this podcast, it seems silly to pretend we don't know what's going on with Plissken. I appreciate your understanding.

[@reloadpsi]

You know that episode of South Park where the kids all play ninja, and Cartman takes off his clothes to become invisible, but then it cuts back to reality where everybody else can still just see him walking around naked? That was how Pliskin's disguise came across to just about all players :P

[@payphone86]

Snake himself even kind of gives a side-eye glance after he takes off his mask at 38:12. I always read that as a “Did he buy it?” look. No spoiler tag necessary, I agree! It’s just too obvious, and the game is nearly 25 years old.

[@shpladau]

I had zero clue that Substance changed how that worked. I was so confused playing MGS2 for the first time on the Essential Collection and just being met with a vague "Tanker-Plant, Tanker, Plant" choice. I know that picking Plant meant getting more tutorialization that the Colonel skips otherwise, but I never knew how new players were supposed to know that.

[@threedogg4015]

There is supposed to be some confusion when it comes to the identity of Pliskin, it just didn't really translate to the English version. In the Japanese release, Solidus and Solid have the same voice actor, and it just so happens that you hear Solidus' voice several times before you see him in the flesh before the Harrier fight. The audience sees Pliskin and they're sure he's Snake, but then you hear the same voice again commanding Olga etc, and suddenly it's a bit more muddled as to who is who and what's going on. Originally the plan was for Snake to appear as a much older man when he first meets Raiden during the Vamp scene too, which was designed to follow up on Liquids dialogue about their vintage genes at the end of the tanker sequence.

[@CaffeinatedKing]

@@threedogg4015 That would explain a lot, even in MGS1 and I think Twin Snakes I remember it being commented that Snake has aged terribly since MG1/2 (I want to say by Grey Fox) and then MGS2 follows this up by reminding Snake that both he and Liquid don't really have much time, which is then reinforced by looking at Solidus later. But we only ever really see this come to pass in 4, I love John Cygan as Solidus, but I do wish they had kept in the same voice confusion in the English version.

[@maxderrat]

I must have played this game 80 times, so pretty much all of the initial emotional impact these moments made on me was forgotten. Hearing you guys talk about that game has reminded me of some of those feelings I had. Thanks very much!

[@LogosSteve]

Damn 4 more times than me!

[@totallynotaspy2686]

yellow man mentioned

[@DrStrangefate]

Max! I was hoping you'd see this series. Your videos on the end of this game were incredible

[@GrahfGames]

A quick scan of the comments and I didn't see it mentioned, but Vamp's introduction also heavily mirrors the introduction of the Cyborg Ninja in Metal Gear Solid. The unnerving scene of a bloody hallway full of dead men' with one barely living limping into view and stammering "I-it's a ghost!" before falling over dead.

[@nickburose8286]

It's definitely an escalation of that scene from mgs1, especially so early into the playthrough. In MGS1, Grey Fox is an elite soldier turned into a literal weapon of war, equipped with a plasma cannon and stealth camouflage. In MGS2, from the player's perspective at least, Vamp is just some guy who is a 'wizard of knives', but somehow he is even more dangerous. He is more fantastical. its great.

[@FrozenAXL]

Quinton Flynn was everywhere at the time, and he was amazing in a lot of roles. Such nostalgia hearing him again. This game is peak writing.

[@Elvisbackpack]

My first time playing MGS2 was in 2003, and in the 22 years since then, I've played it more than a hundred times, and EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I find something I've never seen before. MGS2 is the gift that either doesn't or simply won't stop giving, and warrants many, many, many more playthroughs.

[@mabonman]

Kubrick of games

[@deprofundis442]

Same, dude! I replay this every year since it released and I spot new things every single time, without fail.

[@DanielSantosAnalysis]

When I was in high school, I had beaten MGS2 several times, I even went out of my way to beat it on every difficulty. The last time I replayed MGS2 however, was back in 2011 when the HD collection released for the PS3. Despite having played this game numerous times, this podcast is seriously making me want to go back and play through it all over again. I think that's one of the great things about this podcast, the level of detail with which the two of you discuss each title, allows the audience to re-experience these titles and reigniting not simply old memories, but the feelings that came with those initial playthroughs. I was absolutely too young to even begin to comprehend what MGS2 was trying to say, but I could still feel it on a visceral level and hearing you guys talk about it makes me feel as if I am that teenager whose experiencing it for the first time all over again.

[@mdude62]

40:40 another little touch I only noticed on my second playthrough is that right after the Colonel explains how you won't be able to just take guns off dead guys because all the SEALs and terrorists are using ID-locked guns, Iriquois hands Raiden a pistol which he just used. So if Raiden didn't know before that he should have known immediately that Iriquois isn't actually a SEAL. I would be genuinely impressed with all the little details setting up Iriquois's true identity if it wasn't already the most obvious thing in the world.

[@crimsonking440]

Tbf, i knew he wasnt a seal and i realized that just now upon reading this comment.

[@BlightDemon]

There’s so much that can be discussed with this game. You went into interesting detail about “solids” before, here’s some info on a few more names: Fat man: while he certainly does appear portly, it’s also the name of the nuke that was used over Nagasaki. So, while we (USA) may think it’s a silly name, it carries more weight in Japan Deep Throat: this character is an anonymous informant. In real life, this was the codename for the anonymous informant who leaked the Watergate Scandal to the press. Everyone else, please feel free to add to the list!

[@jamesk2325]

Dead Cell is a direct reference to the real world organization Red Cell who had the exact same purpose - run "drills" without warning to simulate terrorist attacks. Allegedly they were too good at their jobs and got too aggressive with a navy commander they kidnapped and the unit were all disbanded IIRC

[@BlarGames]

Ok! I will :) -More gameplay-related: the Codec call about Snake disarming a C4 on a guard's back is a nod back to MGS1, where you could literally do that to guards yourself if you were sneaky enough. The ultimate "pointless overkill" move..but fun to pull off! -Similarly Stillman's comments about the women's bathroom could be a nod to following Meryl in MGS1, at least that's another way to interpret his line about 'already going in there' for those who rushed after Meryl to see her 'undressed' scene.. -Speaking about 'knowing if Pliskin is Snake' or not. The first time you actually 'see' Snake (the very first time for those who pick 'This is my first MGS') is before you ride the lift up at the start. As Raiden peeks around the corner and sees someone boarding the lift, you get a quick cut of Snake's backside, which for anyone who did the Tanker will make it rather obvious it's Snake. This suggests he must have stolen some SEAL member's uniform between then and Strut B.

[@a_gourd]

Something to point out as far as parallels between this game and the first is the bosses that you fight. The first boss, Ocelot and Fortune, you play peek-a-boo with a sharpshooter that has seemingly super-human aim/luck, with a no man's land between you, and you're interrupted before you can defeat them (could say most of those things about Olga as well, aside from getting interrupted). The second, Vulcan Raven in a tank and Fatman, you fight a heavily armored opponent on wheels, and explosives are an integral part of the fight (kind of a combination fight since this game has fewer bosses than the first, but Fatman's boss fight is also structurally very similar to Vulcan Raven's second fight on foot later in the game). Vamp is also introduced to us in a very similar way to the Cyborg Ninja, though there will be a more explicit reference to that down the line. It doesn't line up exactly but, the similarities are there. Without saying any more, there will be parallels to other bosses later down the line as well.

[@DungeonBricks]

On the hexagons, you're thinking about organic chemistry, based on carbon that often takes the hexagonal shape. All organic forms, based on carbon as it is in our little blue planet, are carbon based, so hexagons are part of it. Hexagons are bestagons. There's also the fact that hexagons are one of the most stable shapes aside from a circle, and one of the most efficient ways to fill a space.

[@dudemcguy1227]

@1:15:00 The Russian nuclear submarine commander who didn't fire the Nuclear torpedo was Vasili Arkhipov.

[@CasenSperry]

Hero

[@kotowaza-sensei428]

Raiden does not say that he feels like a "legendary mercenary" if you skip the tanker chapter with Snake. Implying that you may have been playing the Tanker incident in VR as Raiden since the beginning.

[@ZeroWiseman]

Great episode! I'm loving these. I hardly listen to podcasts but you both have such a passion for how art is made and that's wonderful. I'm a long time MGS fan and Xenogears fan, as well as Silent Hill 2 and Final Fantasy 7 and this podcast has been such a insightful experience for me. I feel like you'd both have a field day with David Lynch's works by the way. Thank you all for your work on these videos/podcasts!!

[@snhvnc]

My best friend and I played through MGS2 the first weekend after it came out. I spent the night at his house that whole weekend, and it was basically all we did. It was good times. He passed away a few years ago, and now I don't have anyone to reminisce about some of my best memories with. Feels bad man. MGS2 is so comfy for me now. I haven't played it in several years now, but after you guys have been chatting about it, I think I should. Thanks for bringing back up my good memories guys. Good times.

[@erickghoul174]

The nerd/node dialogue reminds me an awful lot of MGS3, when Snake (or Big Boss) mistakenly hears Zero calling the first sequence of the game “the virtuous mission” as “the virtual mission”. Has me thinking now…

[@reenchanted]

Haha, I forgot about that! Seems like they played with sequel references in almost the same way!

[@MFF25]

Two things i never took notice when i played the game twenty years ago, and playing now it i thought it was cool 1- you can level up the grip strength 2- you can use the Boxes to fast travel with the conveyor belt

[@ctdxii8007]

*cough* you should load yourself into the back of a truck within a box in Shadow Moses! If I'm remembering right that trick goes back to MG2, possibly as a scripted sequence in MG1!

[@nicolasjonasson4820]

It was a gameplay mechanic of Metal Gear for NES (The non-Kojima game)

[@Poopinhammer]

As someone with an April 30th birthday, this freaked me the hell out.

[@JediWarrior2007]

I don't know if any of you guys had that scene, but in the Tanker mission if you keep saving with Otacon (I think it's 25 times or so), eventually Mei Ling interjects and scolds Otacon for not using a cheat sheet that she made and corrects him on the real meaning of the proverb he was talking about lmaoo I swear, everytime I play a Kojima game, I always find something new and funny

[@wegogiant]

One fun note about Snake saying he found a bomb on a soldier's back. If you're playing on higher difficulty there can be more than one bomb per strut that you need to take out. At least one of those extra bombs is planted on the back of an enemy soldier just like Snake said. If you kill or tranquilize the enemy he falls on his back, causing an explosion and game over, so you need to sneak behind him and use the spray while he's still awake and standing before you can take him out.

[@RustyReally]

Are you sure of that ever happening in the main game ? I don't recall ever defusing a bomb on an enemy's back on higher difficulties, maybe on a VR mission or snake tales ?

[@wegogiant]

@RustyReally Oh, wait, you could be right. Maybe it was only in the extended content of the Substance version

[@MrRusty103]

I love how 75% of the words of this discussion have a giant set of air quotes around them for those who have played the game before. Even this review isn't talking about what its actually talking about half the time lmao. Gotta love the glorious cluster fuck that is MGS2.

[@lucasbockhorst4191]

A DUD?!?

[@DrStrangefate]

That line delivery always makes me chuckle at how incredulous and annoyed the soldier sounds. 😂 "DEUUDDDD!!"

[@hian]

On reflection, Casen kinda sounds like Otacon. He could do that voice perfectly, I think.

[@remarkablezeal9568]

Yeah, he does a really good impression of Otacon

[@CouchPotato232]

This is a great series so far I'm glad you both are taking your time. One thing I would like to clarify is the idea that Kojima both dislikes the MGS series and his players. There are tweets as recent as 2024 where Kojima talks about how grateful he is that players still talk about and love MGS, and how proud he is of making the games. He definitely still loves his work on the series, and I believe he cares for the players too, as Death Stranding is a game made to help people who take games seriously. I do agree that he is against the violence in his own games, which is why the ultimate challenge and rank to achieve in MGS2 and beyond is a full pacifist run without being seen by enemies. Kojima encourages replays of his games, but he made the most skillful play to be a pacifist run so that through replays players would let go of the killing. I do believe he absolutely wants to move past MGS creatively, however, and has no desire for his future work to be shackled to its legacy.

[@MFF25]

I remember that decades ago when i first played this game, i had borrowed it from a friend and he also gave me his memory card saying he had completed the tutorial mission. So the very first mission that you play with Snake, i did not do, didn't even know of its existence until few years later. So i did not know that Plissken was Snake, and yes, i had played the first game.

[@_Adjei_]

ResonantArc At 58:40, The reason why Pliskin got a headache was because he was starting to lose blood later after he got injured by Vamp.

[@The810kid]

I never had a problem with Raiden as a kid and I say that as someone whose two favorite video game characters growing up was Solid Snake and Cloud Strife. Even now as an adult my favorite version of Raiden is the more goofy less edgy Raiden from Sons of Liberty. His dorkiness in moments adds to the tone of Metal Gear perfectly and adds relatability.

[@reloadpsi]

I liked the middle ground they struck with his personality in Rising.

[@Windraesa]

excellent childhood choices

[@RokkouA1]

I always use tranquilizer whenever possible, espeicially during boss fights. I'm pretty sure it's always faster to drain that bar over the health bar.

[@alialghamdi7153]

The big shell's architecture also takes inspiration from the maunsell forts of ww2. The similarity is uncanny.

[@Newz1306]

If you’re interested in some early analysis of MGS 2, Tim Rogers of Action Button and Kotaku fame (among other things) wrote an interesting piece called ‘dreaming in an empty room’ back in 2004. It did a great job pointing out how Postmodern it was and even mentions speaking to Kojima, as he was living in Japan around that time. Check it out if you can, it’s super interesting!

[@Khwerz]

That was... not great, No wonder you can't find it.

[@Newz1306]

@Khwerz I disagree, but I get it, Tim always caught shit for his writing style. Which makes sense because at the time he began writing about games every review back then read mostly like buyers guides and not much else. Oh well. At the very least he was ahead of the curve and very few people at the time saw what this game was doing.

[@BlarGames]

I've wanted to read it but apparently Tim himself has removed from the internet for some reason?? By all means correct me if I'm wrong.

[@Newz1306]

@@BlarGames Yeah, Tim does that a lot with his old writing. But I just googled it and a post on the metal gear solid subreddit came up with someone in the comments providing a link to the original article.

[@HumbleDictator]

I think the bomb on the back of a soldier is also a reference to MGS1 where you could also do the same - sneak behind a soldier, plant a radio controlled bomb on them and activate it later.

[@GamingWithSpoons]

Something else worth noting on the discussion regarding using video games as tools to create soldiers. It was only three years after this game released that the US revealed they'd i believe funded the development of Full Spectrum Warrior to help train soldiers in Combat and war. They at the very least used this as a way to train and recruit upcoming soldiers so it is possible he could have also been referencing that.

[@Khwerz]

Gov always does it first. I imagine the future is, you put on VR goggles and play a video game on being a fry cook or driving a truck. do 100 hours and you're hired. its not real, but its damn better than training by theory.

[@nawe_13]

I don't have Twitter but as soon as I saw the image from Kojima of Ludens with snakes around I thought it was related to 2025, the year of the snake (Hebi) in the 十二支

[@kulturkorv]

Metal Gear Solid - VR Missions has exactly 300 missions. So when Raiden says he has completed 300 missions that must mean he has the Platinum trophy.

[@mrgreen027]

🤭

[@kelvinv9819]

Every time Casen says “Snake Solid” I cringe lol idk why he keeps doing it

[@TectonicImprov]

I like to imagine it's said as "Snake (Solid)" lol

[@uchytjes10]

At this point, I am half expecting a full episode based on just the very end of this game.

[@coreyrachar9694]

we can only hope.

[@coreyrachar9694]

Great episode! I'm not in a rush but at the same time I'm really looking forward to the finally of this series!

[@dknight2175]

As someone who actually played those VR missions on the original PS1, part of the joke is that the VR missions were waaay harder than MGS1 lol. The jokes in this game had more layers than an onion

[@rickvanvelzen]

Happy new year! (year of the Snake)

[@UnrealChaosHD]

Tis is amazing keep it up

[@arcturionblade1077]

The Snake and Otacon voice impressions, top tier, lol.

[@Rayanaminge]

I’ve always thought that the shape of the design of the entirety of Big Shell is eerily similar to the symbol of “The Tree of Life”. The series of hex shapes. It’s barely missing anything from that symbol.

[@Bardealot]

About min 46 when you are talking about the pacifism run, I believe this MGS was when the whole possibility of finishing a run with 0 kills began. Like at the time it was a thing, that you can finish the game you could technically do so with 0 kills, and this kept on on future MGS's

[@blueslime3963]

Maybe Kojima wanted his audience to think there are more siblings of Snake and Liquid when Iroquois Pliskin is introduced. I mean think about it, mgs1 had liquid, and mgs2 suddenly has Solidus. The audience maybe think Pliskin is Snakes brother?

[@CaffeinatedKing]

Liquid *does* say they were octuplets in the womb, but the other "6" were terminated.

[@HumbleDictator]

Nothing sudden about Solidus. He is mentioned at the end of MGS1.

[@blueslime3963]

@@HumbleDictator I mean he is suddenly part of the les enfant terrible, that's what I meant

[@LogosSteve]

What I like about Kojima using Raiden as a surrogate for player commentary is that it's inoffensive if you don't see it that way because Raiden is still his own character so it's less sloppy than other games which don't have the character proxy in the middle.

[@Reddeth6332]

I was 10 or 11 years old when I played this on Xbox. Great memories and didnt understand all of the story details until I played it again as an adult.

[@Scimarad]

I'm still not there yet. I'm definitely at " I'm on a goddamn mission! GO AWAY!!!" - To quote Terry Pratchett, personal isn't the same as important...

[@hian]

Terry Pratchett is such a gold trove of great quotes. VERY QUOTABLE INDIVIDUAL, IF I MAY SAY SO MYSELF. =P

[@solairecopernicus3420]

At the part where Pliskin asks Raiden about his combat experience, you could argue that the VR missions were 'real' to Raiden. Like he put in effort and was obviously invested in them despite it just being a game( or not real). But he still experienced it.This kinda mirrors something later in the game... which I hold off on mentioning till we get there lol.

[@burretploof]

I really appreciate your podcast. In general - but as a huge MGS fan, these episodes are definitely a special treat. They make me want to replay these games for the umpteenth time, even though I just replayed them when the Master Collection Vol. 1 came out. Fingers crossed that Vol. 2 comes out soon and includes 4 as well as Peace Walker! I could play those on console again but I'd rather play them on PC. 😅

[@apnwu369]

I think Kojima was also trying to break overly analytical people with this game. Its funny to see Mike and Casen struggle with the humor and wacky story elements. This game hits you at a level that can't be explained rationally

[@ullwars5986]

In the first pal version of the game, it would ask if you had played MGS1, and if you said no, the game skipped the Snake portion and some of the dialogue is different. They removed the option in MGS2 Substance and later rereleases. I didnt have a ps1 so I played MGS2 first. I remember being extremly confused because of all the prewies I had seen from the tanker portion of the game. The tanker chaoter was an extremly fun bonus after playing the main portion of the game. When I look back on it I think it was extremly cool to mimic the beginning of MGS1 with Raiden. You.guys are doing great work, I cant wait for the Terranigma episodes, one of my absolute favourite games.

[@aarons.2323]

I do remember how sensitive things were in the fall of 2001, so changing Raiden's name, even if it was just in Japanese, makes sense. I remember even wondering if I ever wanted to watch a violent movie ever again (I saw Training Day that year in the theater after the attack, so there was no problem there). The band Jimmy Eat World changed their album Bleed American to self-titled, probably for the same reasons the guys stated here. It was probably a record label decision and the band said "Yeah, sure." Years later it reverted back, but it was a weird time for people old enough to remember it, because everyone was in shock. Sensitivity was at an all-time high, and I think everyone wanted to be extra careful.

[@XenithflareGaming]

I played this game SO MANY times on PS2. I was on the cusp of collecting every single dogtag on every difficulty, and only the European Extreme difficulty stopped me in my tracks. I got railroaded by the harrier fight and could never make it past... I think I started the fight with very little health and only one ration, so it was basically gone the moment the fight began. Probably my most frustrating moment in gaming, right next to missing one single flag on the Kingdom Map in Assassin's Creed 1.

[@Tomismyusername]

I just love this channel so much.

[@DonMiguelLaBestia]

I’m glad I’m not crazy for loving these lines… 🤣🤣🤣 “Not NERD, NODE!” “A DUDDD!!!!!” These are seared into my memory

[@MrBigphil83]

I love this game and I love the breakdown you guys give about these games. Makes me want to replay them on my switch and ps5 but I have such a huge backlog of games I want to get through first. Also another funny thing to do with “Pliskin” is after the cutscene after he saves you from Vamp. Once you’re able to control Raiden and he’s asleep on the steps. Go up to him and aim your gun at him. He will have some fatherly advice for you. Also if you shot him with anything other than the tranq gun. He will literal get up and kick you. Then scream at you. Little things like this are what makes this game so much more than others. Makes you want to replay them over and over again. That’s what makes this game last the test of time.

[@DungeonBricks]

As someone who's played MGS 2, 3 times!... Mike's attempts to not be obvious are hilarious.

[@LogosSteve]

The "It's nanomachines" as an explanation for characters doing crazy stuff is a retcon in MGS4, it was not an explanation until then and I'm fairly confident Kojima didn't decide that until then, as a middle finger, to people who didn't like peoples' powers being ambiguous.

[@FrustratedJacob]

"You can't let go of the memes, even when you're on the most important mission you could ever be on." I'm always saying this!

[@alialghamdi7153]

I think snake just got dizzy from the blood loss when vamp cut his arm. He even says "must have lost a few more pints than i thought"

[@sxpv]

1:15:47 Col. Sergei Petrov was decorated with multiple medals and orders, including the medal "For Impeccable Service". According to his interview he didn't consider himself as a hero: "it was a hard job, but I did it well, and there's nothig heroic about it".

[@ResonantArc]

I was referring to Vasily Arkhipov, but that this has happened several times makes me shudder.

[@teekol]

Did anyone notice the references to Paul Auster’s City of Glass in this act of the game? Both are about a “detective” finding someone named Peter Stillman and deal with themes of identity and perspectives on reality in a postmodern world. Pretty confident it’s not a coincidence, but can’t go deeper into the connection between these two works without spoiling both of them.

[@Mason_van_Bike]

Hi Casen, I’m curious if you’ve read “Zen, and the art of motorcycle maintenance”. Your discussion about the philosophical quandary of a central oneness vs a serious if infinite divisions is very relevant to that book’s thesis. I think you’d enjoy it if you haven’t read it

[@justicerainz]

I remember when I first played this game 20ish years ago, I was never sure if Pliskin was Snake, even with all the things that feel obvious (Pliskin looks like snake, same voice actor, Pliskin or iroquois means snake)

[@AdlerCat]

I'm not sure I'm totally on board with the idea the Kojima dislikes his audience. I think the Metal Gear series as a whole is always examining this concept of the perfect soldier. Firstly, since there were people, our children's play have always had dark undertones. Tag, chase the prey, run from the predator. Hide and seek, find the prey, hide from the predator. As civilization went along, games started being stylized like war. More and more so over time our games focused on raising hunters and gatherers, then warriors, then turning children into good little soldiers. Anyone who's ever played football and gone through even the things they put you through before you ever get to play the game is extremely militarized. It's been this insidious progression as civilization has progressed. The perfect soldier is not a person, they have no individuality, they exist only for the mission. They do not have feelings about objectives, they are just eager to complete their mission. They are highly skilled, but how do you get those skills? Training and experience, but experience is a double edged sword. The longer you play at being the perfect soldier, the more you mature, the more the human in the uniform starts to show up. Scars, physical and emotional start to pile up. You become more cynical and questioning and eccentric. If you survive long enough, you might have finally been forged into an elite fighter. But you're disillusioned from being used for pointless crap. You're an elite warrior, but a shit soldier now. You don't fit into a peaceful existence either. Now you're a problem. So training it is! So, can you get the guy from the end of that process, but he's still the good little soldier ant, without the physical and emotional wear and tear? Can you make them do it a lot? Do it on their own? Make it fun? Games! I think Kojima very serious about young people playing at simulated war. Getting hundreds and thousands of reps of simulated war. Learning strategy, tactics, how to think on your feet, becoming desensitized to the battlefield and violence. Make children enjoy it, even crave it. I think Kojima is trying to challenge you, the gamer, to reflect on what you're doing in your games. These games let you be as clever and passivist as you want. It never takes the people out of the story, these are character dramas. It doesn't want to be anything close to a Call of Duty campaign. In the end, most of the villains are incredibly similar your hero, often only a few years ago they could have been the hero. War, power, this military industrialized complex will chew you up and spit you out much worse than you went in. It wants you to be clear eyed about that.

[@ctdxii8007]

Seems they dropped the part on how the series is fundamentally an anti-war war game, with all the challenges and contradictions that entails. They're chomping at the bit by the end of this episode, so it should be fun when they can dive deeper into Raiden's full story towards the game's climax!

[@LogosRespeckter]

Guys, not cool. Totally spoiled me, how was I supposed to have any idea that Plisskin was actually Snake! 1/10. 😂

[@therealnathanblake]

46:02 As for the possibility of completing the game without killing anyone, I think it is worth emphasizing that literally all Metal Gear Solid entries reward this approach the most (it is one of the main conditions for obtaining the "Big Boss" rank) and it is, in a sense, the common message of the entire series (with the exception of bosses in MGS1 that you fight with live ammunition - as the developers haven't come up with the idea of ​​the Tranq Gun at that point). This usually requires a little more effort from the player and in a way shows that a strong character does not use shortcuts and looks for intelligent solutions to conflicts, instead of using force. Personally, I love this about Metal Gear. Once you get used to this type of gameplay, it makes the typical killing in other military games feel somewhat questionable.

[@TectonicImprov]

Someone entering the Big Shell underwater before Raiden may be impossible according to Colonel. If only there was a guy around that could make the impossible possible... ;)

[@TheBeird]

I had the Raiden reveal spoiled for me by a magazine review of all things, and I played the game first time about three years after its initial release. I had a similar reaction as Casen. First time around, as a know-it-all twenty something, I found all the quirks ridiculous and not realistic. Over time, I just love the Form Kojima used to tell his story. Only thing I'm still shaky on is the Raiden and Rose stuff. It works, and I appreciate it more, but it drags the pace down a bit I think

[@Dzzy123]

Great video. Fortune is my favourite member of Dead Cell, so I'm excited to see what else you guys think of her.

[@moukka1]

Spoiler warning, since we haven't seen Solidus yet, but: Absolutely everybody in MGS2 is suffering from severe face blindness. Two years back at the tanker Snake looked straight at the CYPHER and practically said cheese, so his face must've been plastered all over the newspapers after the incident was pinned on him. Still, Raiden doesn't see through his not-even-paper thin Pliskin "disguise". Not only that, but due to several in game and canon reasons, supposedly all the modern day Snakes look identical to their clone daddy with the exception of hair styling, and in Solidus's case, age. So how come doesn't ANYONE, ANYWHERE, EVER react to the fact, that the notorious terrorist Solid Snake looks exactly like a 20-30 years younger version of the former US President George Sears? If someone sank an oil tanker at the shores of New York City now and the culprit turned out to be the spitting image of Donald Trump in the first season of The Apprentice, would nobody really bat an eye?

[@donpene7793]

Plus Solidus is supossed to look exactly like Big Boss (an older Solid). He was a famous super soldier, so even in non military fields people should have noticed how much George Sears looked like him. And Solid, who "killed" him twice never freaked out when the new USA president was a literal clon of his former mentor (and himself). It must be like in Superman, when changing hair style and glasses is enough to fool everybody 😂 Even as a kid playing MGS1 when the endgame conversation between Ocelot and Solidus happen I thought it was weird no one would notice.

[@ProxyDoug]

The preview at the start is an interesting idea, but I always assume it's a catch up on the previous episode and it makes me think I skipped one by mistake. It's even more out of place when you try to avoid spoilers during the episode.

[@MonkeyBot9K]

Don't know if you guys played Peace Walker but regarding the fact that humanity was really close to extinction many times and avoided it due to the people who had to push the button deciding not to, that game deals with that issue in a very interesting way, I hope you cover it some time

[@BlightDemon]

At around 45:13 , you guys are talking about Raiden’s VR training and how that’s a criticism of the player. I don’t see how that’s a criticism of the players. I’ve played plenty of action games and I’ve never thought that it was in any way training for a real-life scenario. Nor do I know anyone who thought that way. However, the actual military has and does use virtual training, and, around the turn of the century when this game was made, that was the cool new thing. I specifically recall being on a field trip in the late 90s and being shown jet fighter simulators that they would use for training. I believe that is the criticism: that the modern military thinks using simulations and VR could be a substitute for live training and experience. I do not think he’s criticizing the player like Spec Ops does.

[@ctdxii8007]

Right on, I had the same reaction to that part of their analysis. The series as a whole likes to poke fun at the players but the devs are just as much dorks on the subject material as a lot of players are (or become thanks to them.)

[@TheShugoBR]

01:13:56 yes, it was 00000000 because in case of a crisis, is faster to type, if seconds matter in firing a counter nuke, and being dead on the floor, they need to have a secure method of no random dude can just fire them, but also needs to be faster that in a life and death situation, needs to get fired.

[@rmsgrey]

It'd be even faster to type something like 01010101 where you can be pressing one key as you release the other rather than having to wait for the key to bounce back between digits.

[@shpladau]

Wait, you say Fortune is based on Michael Jackson? Is that why her name is Helena Dolph Jackson?

[@jtru8989]

What a captain EO reference in 2025 awesome

[@Jason-ji8ql]

This is one of those game topics where I wish this was like, an eight to ten hour long video over the whole game XD

[@jamess.3013]

This has been an absolute joy! I’d also highly recommend SuperBunnyHop’s videos on the series

[@rmsgrey]

A couple of thoughts: When it comes to tackling relationship questions in the middle of a top secret mission, I'm reminded of the trap of confusing urgent with important. It's very easy to prioritise things that are urgent - where if you don't address them immediately, you miss out on whatever it is - and sometimes it's right to do so, but the more you focus on things that are merely urgent, the more you'll run out of time to do things that are merely important, but don't come with a deadline attached - you can spend quality time with your girlfriend any time in the next couple of weeks, but if you're always watching the latest shows, or working late to catch a deadline at work, or going out for drinks because it's your mate's birthday, or catching a film while it's still at the cinema - all relatively unimportant but urgent stuff - then you can easily find that it's been a month since you last had a real conversation with her, your relationship is in trouble, and spending time together became urgent a while back without you noticing... On the topic of selfish genes, what genes care about isn't the survival of any individual copy of the gene, but that some copies survive and go on to multiply - that can mean individuals sacrificing themselves so that close relatives (with copies of many of the same genes) can reproduce. On the genetic level, individual people don't matter; it's the flow of genes across the species, and how well the species is doing that matter.

[@lionheart4424]

Second request for you guys to do another Codec call skit but Casen playing as Otacon, and Mike as Solid Snake. About what you point out around 45:00, of Kojima kinda mocking gamers, this immediately reminded me of a particular phrase in one of the very few trailers for SILENT HILLS (P.T.) that says something along the lines of "my dad was a boring guy, always playing the same type of games". Can't remember if it was RagnarRox or someone else, but a KZbinr, that pointed out that phrase and it does seem like addressed to gamers. Wonder if that is low-key his resentment for him being successful in videogames rather than in the movies industry.

[@pirate4460]

please tell us your score at the end of the game (enemies killed, times spotted, etc) once the podcast is complete!

[@asterisqke8603]

If Kojima did have any animosity towards players, I personally think it's against particular consumers and creators that participate in or produce sensational media about serious subject matter but fall short in properly deconstructing the consequences or impact of the subject matter in their narrative. But that's just what I think. This is why I love the MGS series and Spec Ops The Line. Both do not shy away from telling the audience how messed up the reality of it all is. You are not a hero or a legend or the elite of the elite, just another grunt perpetuating the meme of warfare under dubious logic.

[@lockecold]

If you guys thought that Pliskin snoring was hilarious, wait till you try to point a gun at him at that point! Enjoyable listening, especially considering that I get slightly annoyed at some of the discussion not sure why you keep harping on Snake being "hit on" from MGS1, literally a throwaway portion of the first game and I'd have to recheck the JP script to be sure of how intentional it is because of Jeremy -- MG2 for MSX2+ had way more hitting on than that (funny considering that MGS1 is a re-imagining of MG2 in a different setting.) Would be interesting to see analysis of the "post-game" content like the even more VR missions and Snake Tales, even if a bunch of them are "superfluous".

[@matthewmellott1856]

Been waiting on this episode!

[@GMrDrew]

I never owned a PS1. My experience with this game never dealt with the memetic legacy of the first. Iroquois was just a shifty my guy that looked like tanker op from the beginning but... I played thru MGS2 many times, enjoyed all of it without the references. Proceeded to play MGS3 (greatest game of all time) and even went on to get the PS3 to play MGS4 (my favorite series entry) before I saught the opportunity to purchase MGS1 on the online store. Oh how I missed out lol. Never played MGS5 unfortunately.

[@Mors]

47:11 Bit late to the party so sorry if this has already been said but 2025 is the year of the snake again (24 years since 2001, so two rounds of the Chinese zodiac Japan also follows). So think of it as a “Happy Year of the Snake” card from Kojima.

[@aleph-m6z]

46:30 on the tension between violence as a gameplay element and the message of the game, I think Kojima is as critical of himself as he is with the audience and and it becomes very apparent in his evolution as a game maker with Death Stranding. In Death Stranding he very explicitly makes an effort to have the mechanics of the game reflect the theme rather than contradict it, lethal violence comes with some very dire consequences, there's satire on social media mechanics in it, and so on.

[@erikmclennan3934]

Can someone please tell me what part of the game I have to play to in order to watch this episode? Thanks 🙏

[@ctdxii8007]

They cover from the start of the big shell up to just before the fight with Fat Man, right around the halfway mark in the game.

[@erikmclennan3934]

@ctdxii8007 ty!

[@Mezmero]

That line reading of "A dud!" lives rent-free in my head. I have to wonder if that incidental character was voiced by a particularly prominent voice actor or if it was some rando in the localizer office. I hate everything about Vamp other than his voice actor who a legend in his own right. Of the Dead Cell members he's got the weakest gimmick, weakest back story, most uninteresting power set. The way he's presented would lead me to believe that his biggest fan is Hideo Kojima. As far as I'm concerned nothing about the character can be read as a subversive "gotcha!" in service of any overarching themes in MGS but maybe by the end of this you guys will derive more meaning from him than I ever could.

[@RokkouA1]

I don't think Kojima has much ill will if any for MGS, though probably some for Konami. Till this day he still consistently retweets fan tweets about MGS. He even recently made a tweet about the anniversary for Sons of Liberty. I think it's Kojima being critical at the idolisation of Snake being an "American action hero" and people aspiring to be that through these games, rather than looking towards the pacifism and anti-war sentiment in his stories. Anyways I can't wait for the episode on the ending, there's so much to talk about that I feel it could go on for like 3 hours easily. I'm most looking forward to Snake's monologue at the very end, it's another example of Kojima somehow getting away with conventional rules you shouldn't break, being show don't tell, yet for some reason it's so effective for me at conveying the core of MGS2's message.

[@ryanfitzgerald9833]

Please, put some respect on that name. That's not just raiden... Its LORD Raiden thank you. Man took out a metal gear with a katana.

[@Jazz-Demon]

If I may be so bold to offer some criticism to this style of book club. I think it loses a bit of value seeing as you guys have finished the game. Imagine going to a book club and two people there have finished the book and they say things like “I can’t want to talk about the ending!” or “pay attention here guys, it’ll all make sense”. Luckily I have finished the game many times over the years so I can enjoy the subtle winks and nods but if I was playing it first time I would find it a bit obnoxious. Even though it may have been harder before when you used to play up to a chapter and do a podcast, play some more, do another podcast, I think it offered more value as gave your thoughts as a player ‘up to that point’, which I would say is more in the true spirit of a book club. But again it’s all a minor point. Love the work you guys do.

[@ResonantArc]

I don't know quite how to address the criticism but I appreciate it. On past games we've done a few podcasts where Mike has played the game but I haven't, and they've been well received. But sometimes I can give readings and interpretations and guesses that just end up being wrong and then we decided to just both play the game so that we can treat it properly in the podcast. I see pro's and con's both ways. We'll keep thinking about ways to make the podcast better. - Casen

[@matthewgubbins8515]

Self preservation is a hell of a gene

[@samuelpipe88]

So excited for this episode!

[@Inf1n1ty11]

Hope y’all are safe in the LA fires

[@xx801cloudxx]

Awe yeahhhh love your videos guys

[@DungeonBricks]

Third comment (sorry, there's just a lot to say), you can actually play this game without a single casualty sans the last boss. Most of them you can actually beat using only the tranquilizer.

[@Dzzy123]

You can take down the last boss with the non-lethal option.

[@DungeonBricks]

@@Dzzy123 right! I forgot about that! (It's been a while since I last played)

[@GunnzaEIR]

I can't wait for mgs4 sometime

[@TheCreapler]

I Could be wrong, but I am pretty sure that man in Russia was recognized and awarded a medal by the Russian gov for not launching the nukes.

[@ResonantArc]

Some non-profit gave him one posthumously, but his superiors were not happy with him and he retired away to a small town outside Moscow and kept to himself. The Russian government never recognized him and he felt that they never appreciated what he did.

[@BenboQuest]

I appreciate the enthusiasm here but the "Plissken is Snake" theory doesn't really hold up considering Snake himself shows up later in the game