How the Walker Spy Ring Hurt the F-14 Tomcat

The Walker Family spy ring gave a massive amount of top secret information to the Russians during the years they were actively spying for them. The ring leader, John Walker, enlisted his son Michael, who was an enlisted man stationed with VF-102 and the USS Nimitz, to join the effort. Michael stole thousands of messages and documents that seriously impacted the F-14's ability to fight.
Tomcat veteran Dave "Hey Joe" Parsons joins the livestream to discuss the ramifications of this leak of classified information and how naval aviators were hazarded as a result.
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[@captfjparks]

I was on Nimitz when Michael Walker was arrested when we were in port at Haifa Israel. We should have taken several miles off the coast and made him walk home.

[@CourtneyBest]

Word actually came in before before we pulled into Haifa. Not sure where they kept him, but it was not in the Brig, word got out, and there was a vigilante group trying to find him. I think the Captain or CO had him in their quarters.

[@williamcollins1017]

I remember the Walker case well. Two months after the case "broke", there was a message that all officers currently assigned as "Secret / Crypto control" were to be suddenly relieved and a new officer was to be assigned, preferably one who had not had the job in the past. My roommate was the SCO/Crypto control officer. He got a call to see the XO and upon returning from his "meeting" I was called to the XO's office. Yep, you guessed it. He was relieved and I was his replacement. Thanks XO; not like being Legal officer was NOT ENOUGH. Still remember the old adage that being "legal officer" saved you from other collateral duties!

[@oceanmariner]

USS America is in 15,000 feet. Kinda deep dive site. In 1970, on a Fletcher class destroyer, one of the last, I was on my way to the bridge and found a sealed packet of cripto punch cards outside radio's door. Apparently dropped by the assistant radio officer seconds before. Even though the cards had never been anywhere a spy might see them, there was a big stink, lotta paper work, etc. And now that I know Walker started spying 3 years earlier, it was all for nothing. Great video. As usual. I remember reading about Walker and had no idea it effected the F-14, tactics, or missiles until today. I also read Blindman's Bluff. A great book on secret sub operations during the cold war. Too bad they didn't shoot Walker.

[@JustinCoyne]

Wow, that seems like a waste. I'm surprised a shipbreaker didn't want it. It's not going to be much of an artificial reef at that depth.

[@TooTallDean]

@@JustinCoyne Probably used as a target for a SinkEx. During the recent (July 2022) RIMPAC exercise, two ships were sunk. Mooch, have you done videos on RIMPAC, or any SinkEx 's? Could be a good topic 🤔

[@tyranusfan]

@@JustinCoyne They wanted to do a Sinkex on a supercarrier. Rare opportunity to see how much damage one could take

[@Jollyrogerdoc]

​@@tyranusfan data from AMERICA sinkex used in design of Ford class. AMERICA did not sink from damage.

[@brentmueller9442]

USS America's sinking was a series of tests done to gather data for designing the Ford class carriers.

[@1ask2risk]

Damn. I never thought about the cap on the desk trick. I just walked around with a clipboard, an angry expression, with purpose. Amazing how many people thought you were on a mission. But dropping the cover on the desk…brilliant.

[@vrod665]

Walker … it haunts me for many reasons. When my father was dying of Legionnaires (contracted during his tenure at NARF Norfolk) he was watch TV. The news showed the arrest of a man and my dad immediately said “that guy works in my building.” Walker ‘worked’ in LF-18. Fast forward a few years I spent my life playing Blind Man’s Bluff. A game where Walker and his merry bad of asshats had put everyone in harms way. Strange how lives intertwined.

[@taylorc2542]

He should do one on John Pollard, who really showed why we can't trust them.

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

@@taylorc2542 them?

[@olentangy74]

I worked at NARF Norfolk during that period of time, and I occasionally visited LF18. I wonder if I walked by Walker during those times. I might have saw your dad too. I am sorry for your loss. Later on, there was two individuals who were busted in a sting operation. They were trying to sell F-14 engine parts to Iran. One of the douchbags worked in my building. Unbelievable how there are people who will sell out their country for $$.

[@BradPanoff]

@@taylorc2542 spell it out.

[@kareyrose]

There was a secret base near me, Pacific Beach, and it was a listening center , I heard after Walker sold secrets to Russia for peanuts he outed that facility and now it’s in public domain and civilians can go there for a meal overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

[@bret9741]

I remember when this happened. It bothered me so much. Later on when I enlisted in the Navy (sea college, 2-years scribe + 3 reserve) I ended up on Ike in 88 and was assigned V-2. Since so had 2 years of college and had computer skills, and since they had just lost the division Yeoman, I was immediately made Yeoman. While working as a Yeoman I was asked to take over the quality assurance manuals and tech pubs and keep them up to date and I would send documents removed from the pubs to be destroyed. I was absolutely meticulous in dealing with any classified documents. I worked in V-2 for about 8 months and was promoted to E-4, I had been recruit company Honor man and promoted to E-3 at graduation from boot camp. Anyway I had been studying to be an OS (operations specialist). And once promoted to E-4 I also struck in to the OS rating. Once in OI department I was put directly under Commander McCrory (an f-14 back seater) who was the Division Officer of OI. Commander McCrory wanted someone to be communication avenue to the civilian workers (Honeywell) that were installing the new CIC information display and data link system. I had a background in computers and because so had also been a Yeoman and had worked with quality assurance tech pubs, it seemed like good job for me. What I hadn’t counted on was also being out in charge of crypto and the NAVMACs machine. I was again so paranoid about the now secret information I was dealing with. I believe there were 3 of us who were in charge of crypto. Part of securing the crypto and top secret messages was keeping them in a safe or if appropriate having them destroyed if out of date. I also remember having to be verified when accessing crypto and when re storing it. I don’t remember much except we kept a log on who opened and who observed us opening and closing the safe, what files we accessed. One day while in port, I found the safe open with no one around. I checked the log and checked all the files and found nothing missing. I immediately notified the OOD, Commander McCrory was notified and I ended up speaking with security. It really was a big thing. Ultimately nothing was found missing and they ended up blaming the previous shift of improperly securing the safe. I always wondered if someone had taken photos and left the documents. It seem that there are a lot of people willing to sell out the US, always has been. It bothers me a lot, I’ve always felt punishment for spying should be public hanging. But I’m glad they at least died in prison.

[@94668]

Amen and Amen!

[@margraveofgadsden8997]

My dad was on the Ike around that time. He was a crypto guy, who usually rode on submarines, but did 2 cruises on the Eisenhower. Petty Officer Hammonds ring a bell?

[@bret9741]

It’s been a long time. I need to get the cruise book out and look up names. It’s a name I recognize but it could be someone else. I was on Ike from 88-90 in OI department.

[@mikemuha7537]

I remember my father and I discussing the Walker crimes. He was a WW2 vet who passed 2 yrs ago at 97 and loved this kind of stuff. Wish he was here to enjoy the information that you explained and exposing a more personal, intimate, insider experience. Great job.

[@rogerthat117]

Both my parents worked out at White Sands NM. Always aware of the fact that the secrets keep the solders save

[@dannyfowler7055]

Let us not forget that during the Pueblo incident my old squadron, VQ-1 lost a EC-121 and 31 crew, shot down by the North Koreans. Would they have been there, much less shot at if not for the Walkers…We will never know.

[@chrisl2632]

The Pueblo is the reason spy equipment was moved to cruisers and destroyers. I was lucky enough to do a tour on a destroyer that had it. We spent most of our time on deployment shadowing the Soviet fleet.

[@Cougar139tweak]

My dad was in VQ-1 when that happened, also AT Allred (Elvan Allred) but he was aircrew, he was really pissed off that US didn't retaliate. I gathered from his stories they flew water level with all their electronics off (otherwise the An/ALQ-41 would have picked them up) then pulled up and shot at them from below once they acquired a visual. Sickening $hit....

[@glennsoucy4359]

I transferred off Nimitz the same day that Walker Jr was arrested. I remember him riding his skateboard in the hanger Bay. Small guy. Good rider, perfect hair. Glad I left that day. My friends said it was a bit of a pain, clearance-wise after that.

[@curtiskretzer8898]

I went to go visit a friend on Nimitz & was denied permission to board @ quarterdeck. Good & great thing OOD protected the ship & my acqaintance from me.🤡🌎

[@georgeb424]

I arrived on NIMITZ right after he was arrested. I remember them pulling the brow for the investigation of personnel and no one allowed to go ashore while they interviewed.

[@charlesvlasin7017]

I was stationed with him. I had forgotten all about this until your video popped up. I remember how devastated we felt when this happened.

[@utubejdaniel8888]

Ward, in 1986 was working at a remote facility doing radar cross section work. The fallout from the court case hit us like a hammer. Security briefings were given over and over for the next few weeks and I had to fill out the DD-049 security form six separate times. Those guys are still way-high on my shit list.

[@matthewgardner5983]

Ward, you are doing a fantastic job with this channel !! Great work!

[@foxbodyblues6709]

As a sailor I also had access to CI. Mostly the things I saw were classified Secret. My brush with the effects of the Walkers spy ring was one day we received orders to destroy some equipment that we no longer used. I won’t say more about that, but it was very specific that we had to smash the equipment with a sledge hammer to small pieces and threw it over the side.

[@DonWan47]

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[@foxbodyblues6709]

@@DonWan47 do you know what sort of things were compromised because of them?

[@justinscott4503]

⁠@@DonWan47Walker sold the schematics to the KL-47 and its key lists. The Soviets then built their own KL-47 and could read all of our message traffic. Once this became known the destruct order was issued. It makes perfect sense.

[@foxbodyblues6709]

@@justinscott4503that’s what you know about. You don’t think there was anything else?

[@jimewing5097]

Ha ha P3 bunch of guys break out the pub and zorch around at 250 knots! So true, I lived that life as a P3B Tacco. I just about spewed my coffee all over my computer I laffed so hard when you said this! 😄😄😄

[@denniswilliams5477]

Just a couple of old stories about aircraft issues regarding the Navy F4B and Air Force F4D/E. I was a tech rep for Raytheon in the mid to late 60s involved with the test programs at Pt.Mugu VX-4 and later as a field engineer in several programs trying to figure out why we were having so many problems in Vietnam with the Sparrow program. Many people thought we were selling the government bad equipment so I and 5 other engineers were sent to Clark Airbase to check on the problem and requalify the aircrews. It was true the systems in the early F4s didn't have look down track ability but we demonstrated that with proper maintenance we were able to achieve a 100% kill rate against both the AQM drones and later F106 drones in high speed off aspect conditions in other than a lookdown situation. I need to interject here, a problem I found out on the very first day of testing with the radar maintenance crews supplied by the Air Force ( these were E-6 level techs). We have been bomb loaders for the past 2 years! This was confirmed by reviewing the maintenance records! Further confirming info from the Aircrews stated they were flying MigCaps with Sidewinders only. When I wrote to my superiors back at the facility about I had found I was quickly removed from the base and sent home by the base commander - something about sending classified mail through non secure means. Obviously my observation was that the problem was a command decision. When I was asked by Air Force what did I need to fix the problem I stated I wanted 2 two man highly qualified techs and someone to run interference so we could get what we needed and work with any local officials to solve the political command issues. When I returned 7 days later 2 crews and the most imposing E-8 Master Sgt I ever met who knew God and every senior officer involved so things went smoothly after that. We were also involved in finding out why our missiles were prematurely detonating when firing head on - seems the Mig engine fan was modulating our missile internal BFO signal to cause the issue so the requirement to be 20 degrees off headon - which to this day a big effort is made to shield the front of the engine. At the time we thought the Soviets might have some sort of jamming equipment - took us a while to figure that one out. Anyway I do enjoy your talks!!

[@CourtneyBest]

BFO Beat Frequency Oscillator I have not heard that in forever...

[@denniswilliams5477]

@@CourtneyBest You must have been a Sparrow man

[@williamswain2047]

Good clean read-out Mooch and Dave. It’s appalling the current situation.

[@richardroddenberry2079]

Before I was a Air Force First Sgt, I was a crypto technician. The Walker Spy Ring and The capture of the USS Pueblo with the crypto machines aboard compromised my favorite coding machine to work on. So the Walker Spy ring affected much more than just the Navy.

[@AbbyNormL]

I was a nuclear trained EM1(SS) on the USS Bremerton SSN-698 from 1980 to 1984. My primary watchstation was Electrical Plant Operator, but I also qualified as a Reactor Technician and Reactor Plant Operator as preparation for qualifying Engineering Watch Supervisor. I was filled with anger when the Walker Spy Ring story broke. The information these traitors provided the Soviets was extremely dangerous for the submarine service. I believed then and believe to this day they should have put him in front of a firing squad on live TV.

[@englundus]

Absolutely. Make an example of them.

[@lawrenceharrington3180]

I agree...

[@mikemuha7537]

I was in from 82-86. USS Haddock. EM2 Felt the same.

[@lawrenceharrington3180]

I totally agree... And that couple that gave Russia the plans for the Atom Bomb after WW2... P.S. man a whole lot of studying... I am impressed 👍😁...

[@JohnDoe-yq9ml]

@@lawrenceharrington3180 wasn’t a couple. Was one scientist. You’re thinking of the guy and girl some 30 years later.

[@joeruger5858]

Wow, great topic Mooch. I was an undesignated striker before heading to NAS Memphis in '80 from VF-154. After completing AMH A school I was stationed in VF-74 as they were about to start work ups for the '81 Med cruise. Your topic sparked two memories, the first was when I came to work one afternoon, I worked nights in Airframes, and two NIS agents were there to interview me about an incident that supposedly happened the night before. They said that someone pulled the canopy ejection on an F-14 that shared the hanger with our F-4s. I was surprised to hear this and later inspected the area and found no evidence from looking at the rafters in the hanger. And the agents just seemed like two cool guys who totally believed that I had nothing to do with it. The other memory is about another spy story. I grew up in Redondo Beach, down the road from TRW, and made money mowing lawns as a teenager. The engineer, I think his name is Boyce, of the Falcon and the snowman fame, rented a back house from a guy I did some work for, and he had me dismantle the big bird cage, Aviary, that Boyce kept his bird in. As I was doing it, the landlord told me all about his tenant who was in jail at the time. Boyce escaped from prison and robbed banks for a while, I latter learned. I've been here in Taiwan since '88, and my memories of my time in the Navy seem to be easy to recall, thanks for the spark Mooch!

[@chrisl2632]

I got interviewed in the early 70s by two NIS agents. I had no idea what they were talking about. but they still scared the crap out of me.

[@fran5975]

Great vid. In the book “Scorpion Down” a connection is made between John Walker, the Soviets, and the sinking of the submarine. The damage that occurred is unimaginable. Had no idea it flowed into the F-14.

[@Skank_and_Gutterboy]

I'm glad that bastard died in prison. Even better, he died just months before he became eligible for parole. I saw an interview with that turd, he was downright proud of what he did and thought it was funny. He sure thought highly of himself, he couldn't die enough painful deaths to satisfy me.

[@ronusa1976]

As a Sub Sonar Supervisors John Walker affected my job and I noticed it without knowing what had happen.

[@fran5975]

As you being someone on the inside, did you read “Scorpion Down”? I am very curious if what is written is accurate?

[@i-..--..--..-i6985]

@@fran5975 that won’t be declassified for a very very very long time, if ever if you believe some of the spicier versions out there.

[@LuvBorderCollies]

@@ronusa1976 My "Navy cousin" and I talked about general Walker damage but he never talked details one way or another. He was plenty irritated. Walker was arrested before he went to his first SSN at the start of his 2nd enlistment. He was a torpedomans mate on the East Coast before getting sub duty. Even before getting on the sub Walker's spy info had some effect on Mk48 and IIRC cruise missiles, but no idea what the details were.

[@alantoon5708]

The Walkers should have been keelhauled....under the Nimitz...

[@majorlee76251]

Before the bottom was cleaned.

[@RickCarter1776]

And the transit under the keel should have been slow and repeated till the flesh was... ok I'll stop now

[@karlchilders5420]

@@majorlee76251 that's actually why it was so bad - barnacles and stuff cut the piss out of the poor sod undergoing that punishment...

[@majorlee76251]

@@karlchilders5420 i was listening to a drach video yesterday and there was a section on this topic

[@jamesfox9922]

I grew up in Norfolk VA. We saw this on the local news. They said address where the Walkers lived on Old Ocean View Rd. It became a tourist attraction....

[@rickferrara5646]

Ahh the pubs... As a maintenance guy, there were too many to count. Hardest test I ever took was for Collateral Duty Inspector in the IWT shop. It was an "open book" test where you had to cite all your answers. Publication, section, page, and paragraph... 'Can't remember how many pubs we had for our shop, but it had to be 5 or 6 dozen at least. Still stresses me out thinking about that test and that was 30 years ago! Another great video Mr. Carroll, thank you sir!

[@alexhawley3215]

I was NAV/OPS on a LANTFLT SSN, 1986-88. The Walkers hurt us real bad too. A big part of why we won WWII was breaking the German and Japanese codes. All of a sudden we were on the bad end of the stick. Not a good feeling.

[@jackieallen3344]

Yep in my opinion the whole family who was involved should’ve have been executed for high treason.

[@CYBERVISIONSdotCom]

What Boat?

[@alexhawley3215]

@@CYBERVISIONSdotCom I'm not going to say on KZbin, but its one of the 3 in your picture. Got on it when they returned from that little jaunt.

[@CYBERVISIONSdotCom]

@@alexhawley3215 It’s not THAT hard to determine, since 2 of us were SUBLANT, and the other was a SUBPAC ‘37 out of Pearl. Since I know for a fact you weren’t on the 653 with ME, that only leaves the “other SUBLANT” boat. And of course I have friends on all 3 of those boats….which means I can Verify if you’re legit or not.🤔😳😬 😂Kip Hill says you’re legit, and also to say Hello. Told him I had a “douchebag reply” locked and loaded, but decided to check with him first. Wouldn’t want want to demean a Brother Phinster in Public. At least not without a damned good reason…. Kip also mentioned that you were one of the best Zeros on your boat, and I greatly respect his opinion.

[@alexhawley3215]

@@CYBERVISIONSdotCom Effin' Cool Beans!! Pleasure to meet you. Glad Kip was willing to say I was legit and happy I earned a compliment. 😂😂I've kept in loose touch with him for several years. I'm happily retired now and spend too much time on YT.

[@jimsteinway695]

VX 9 was at China Lake, my home and workplace for 30 years. As an engineer that had various clearances I was SHOCKED and amazed how much classified stuff made it’s way into AVIATION Week and SPACE Technology. We used to call it Aviation Leak and Space technology

[@michaelharper4989]

I was surprised at seeing my configuration data on the cover of Time Mag.

[@dm0065]

When I was in MI in the late 80's my buddies and I were watching a cheezy spy movie in the barracks. In one scene the spy hacked into an NSA computer. Bang, up on the screen pops one of our own code word/caveat combos, and used correctly in the context of what the spy was looking at. Code words with caveats by themselves is only classified Confidential, not Secret or TS, but it was still jarring. We never uttered those words outside the SCIF, then here they are in a low budget movie.

[@bryanholland6987]

I have a pretty good memory of things that I've read. And I remember, talking with my friends at an open form on one of our DCS servers and my entire conversation regarding detailed information about aircraft survivability technology, specifically in the ah-64d apache, was erased and I ended up having a long talk with the moderator of the board. I explained to him that what I was talking about wasn't classified. And he told me that indeed, the knowledge that I was talking about was absolutely classified material and he wanted to know where I got it from because he worked with the Department of Defense. I explained to him that I read it in an old Popular Mechanics magazine as a child. I attempted to find that article, and I guess it got taken down. But thanks to my good memory of these things, I still pretty much remember the whole article. I was warned to never speak of it again or I would be ejected from his DCS group. I thought it was all a joke because this stuff was out in the open. But I guess they took down that magazine article. This stuff does happen apparently.

[@jimsteinway695]

@@bryanholland6987 I worked on a highly classified program. Above my normal clearances. As an engineer I had to wait 8 months to be read in. It wasn’t that super fantastic technology but still important. I read everything about our program in Aviation Leak. I was pretty pissed about it. Later I moved to the F 35 program and in that program you had to have a top clearance to work on anything. Then on top of that you can get additional programs you can work on. One program was very difficult to get into but I did anyway, then after I learned everything I found out that only the Navy considered it classified and the Air Force the same thing was completely unclassified. Amazing stuff. But I will say that you THINK you’re going to learn that joe bidet is actually an Alien. But then you find out everything is pretty mundane.

[@bryanholland6987]

@@jimsteinway695 I know exactly what you mean about finding out that things are mundane. In my case though, some of the things I know about Area 51 aren't mundane but they aren't aliens either. The truth behind that place, especially in the 50s and 60s is, the pilots had entirely way too much fun out there! And they did it safer than the pilots over at Nellis.

[@davidnemoseck9007]

Wow. Great story. And great hearing it from people who lived through it and affected by it.

[@53kenner]

I certainly used the clipboard gag when I needed a break. At first, I thought it worked because it made you look busy. Then I came to suspect that it worked because your superiors were afraid to ask you anything lest they get sucked into whatever problem you were dealing with.

[@wilfred8326]

Ahhh.... Clipboard 📋 power! I used that in the Army for Traffic Control in the Truck/Cargo Lanes! My Clipboard 📋 trumped the RANK on my UNIFORM.

[@josephknaak9034]

Spent one hung over day cleaning the same trash can. Nobody bothers you when they see you are already cleaning shit cans.

[@kevinmassey2467]

I met John Walker on April 22, 1978, at a bar in Virginia Beach named Reflections. We met through a mutual friend, who, apparently, had told John Walker that I worked at The National Security Agency. My job, in the USAF, was to repair crypto and teletype machines in some of the most Top Secret places in the National Security Agency. He must have been sizing me up and wondering if he could approach me to work with him. He must have sensed that it would be a big mistake and he did not ask me any questions about my job at NSA or any other questions. We, (my friend Charlie and my future wife , Sandy, and John) just had a couple of drinks and exchanged small talk before my girl and I went to the oceanfront to go to Peabodys Warehouse. When i found out about this piece of crap Traitor, I saw the timeline of how his sources were drying up and he needed another contact to continue the spy game. Had he approached me in any fashion, I would have notified my superiors at NSA. I am a Patriot, not a traitor. I would die before i would betray my country. I think John Walker sensed that! Kevin Massey Vet-USAF

[@Sagart999]

Small world. I relieved Walker as Comm Officer in USS Niagara Falls (AFS-3) in 1974. My orders to the ship didn't explicitly specify which billet I was to fill; I had attended both EMO and Commo Afloat courses before reporting. The CO assigned me as EMO. A couple of months went by and the ship got a message asking why Walker hadn't been transferred. Answer - No orders. BUPERS oops. So, by the time of his transfer, we had been on liberty several times together. BTW, his COMSEC admin files were *perfect*. I had a periodic inspection shortly after his transfer and got one of those very few "100" inspection evals. Of course, it wasn't until several years after that transfer that we heard about his treason. I contacted NIS (before NCIS) and told them that they needed to interview me. I explained to the agents the most likely means by which he passed coding material to the Soviets. At that point in time, we carried a pretty wide spectrum of COMSEC material, and I know Americans died because of his actions. If his trial had resulted in a death penalty, I would have volunteered to throw the switch.

[@davidclemens1578]

Michael seemed like a Commander's dream. Very discipline very smart and very well liked. Makes me wonder what rank he would have retired as if he had not done this and for only $1,000

[@RCAvhstape]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of stupid smart people out there.

[@Allan_aka_RocKITEman]

INTELLIGENCE and COMMON SENSE do NOT always go hand-in-hand...🙄

[@DonWan47]

His father meant more to him than money. Desperate to win his approval he would’ve done anything. Heartbreaking.

[@AndrewGasser]

Thank you MOOCH and HEY JOE. When I checked into 102 in December 1991 (IWT) the OPSEC and classified handling brief was intense

[@WardCarroll]

IWT rocks!

[@WOLF167h]

Sir, thank you for your content and your service ~ veteran USAF

[@jerseyshoredroneservices225]

Navy!

[@LilSebastian_]

Everyone should take a moment to admire that sweet mustache on Dave’s face. That mustache is tough…

[@Buconoir]

Yup. Still ticks me off from back then. Now, this latest instance needs dealt with severely.

[@Ammo08]

I was a nuclear weapons specialist in SAC in the early 1970s, and those people were dead serious about the handling of classified materials. We never even talked about our job outside of the weapons storage area.

[@dm0065]

Yep. I was in MI in the late 80's, there was no talking about the work outside the SCIF. We didn't even talk about not talking about it. It was like a case of sudden mass amnesia when our shift got relieved. Also, Need to Know was taken seriously. You never walked into another part of the facility or talked to anybody that worked in another section about what they did. Never did find out what the guys next door to us did. It shocks me to hear about how lax things were here. This dude didn't even have a clearance and he was given access to classified material? He could move around SCIFs freely? Just wow. On the other hand, maybe we were used to doing things our way because of the Walker case and the changes it brought.

[@CapnMic]

SAC was in my opinion run quite different from other military commands, yes we had similar policies on handling of classified materials .. but SAC was operating at a different "level of sophistication" and the inspection and over-sight obsessivlely strict with prompt punishment for what other commands would handle with simple couseling and other non-judicial punishments. So your comment about being "dead serious" concerning SAC's tolerance of mishandled classified materials .. is right on .. I was an Air Force officer in Security Police and investigated such incidents as a lowly "captain" .. and only a few investigations at that .. we had no repeat offendors in SAC! .. I would later work in USAFE with NATO - as a Security Police operations officer, and chief of police .. but nothing felt like "going to war" more than my time in SAC

[@williamelliott3718]

@@dm0065 @

[@carltonstidsen8806]

When folks would ask me whether we had a Nuclear Device on the pointy end of the SAC ICBM I was a Missile Combat Crew Commander of, I would advise them (in confidence, of course) that the warhead inside the RV actually contained balloons , confetti, and some CIA Surrender Leaflets.

[@greyfells2829]

That's how it should be, proper professionalism.

[@johnknapp952]

Being an AT in LAMPS squadrons (SH-2F), I remember the difference in how we handled "coding" the aircraft on my first cruise in 79 and my second in 85. Almost no supervision in 79 then strict "two-man rule" by 85. Also most people lost their clearances unless you actually needed it, which most AT/AQ/AX's did.

[@jonsmith4364]

Yes, you are correct !!! I was an ATAN/AT3, (82 to 86) on UH-1N's. My self and the other AT2 had to report to PSD to sign some papers "surrendering" our security clearance. We were told since we didn't need it, since there was nothing classified on them. Never thought twice about this until watching this video and reading your comment !!!!!

[@johnjosephhoffmanjr.784]

I was a aviation machinist mate 3rd class in HSL-34 and worked on SH-2F helicopter engines. My last year I was TAD to the AIMD ( aircraft intermediate maintenance department). Commander Larry Hilgeman was the commanding officer when I was there until September 1983 👍🏼😎

[@MrJugsstein]

I was a RAN submarine from 80 to 86 it horrifies me that all the traffic was being read.

[@waynee.weatherwax8408]

Nimitz class was first ship w/ MPDS(messages traffic by dept vs Radio central) As LCPO S-1 no one other than me dealt with SECRET. Everything I handled was hand to hand in my presence, then taken to burn room by myself. I was totally in panick mode when first took on this job and was surprised when I received Classified traffic on Sub positions etc which I had no need to access. In panic I went to Comms officer. He finally explained that because of the navys SSIC system I was receiving this message traffic. This was early on in Ikes service etc. We handled 30% of all msg traffic in S-1 Division. Later on the system was tweaked to preclude this.

[@acsxfan1]

Young Walker worked in Strike Ops -- we had MPDS in Ops Admin -- at the time the YNs printed with 2 ply paper (carbon in the middle IIRC) - as I recall we were in the shipyard when he was arrested .. this was after I left though

[@DDGVET4]

@@acsxfan1 Michael Walker was arrested in 1985 when Nimitz anchored off Haifa, Israel for a port visit. I was onboard at the time. Just after that we operated off the coast of Lebanon (BENO Station) during the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 that resulted in the death of SW2 Robert Stethem. As a side note when the results of the March exam came out just after Walker's arrest he had made Petty Officer 3rd Class.

[@acsxfan1]

@@DDGVET4 Thanks for updating my memory .. hard to believe that was 37 years ago - I came aboard right after the EA6 crash ..

[@tumslucks9781]

@@DDGVET4 You payed homage to your Zionist masters. Did you have a happy time in Haifa?

[@DDGVET4]

@@acsxfan1 That was my last Med cruise and it was eventful from start to finish. Not much liberty though. Neither of my Med cruises were designed for a Liberty Hound. The first one was spent in the Persian Gulf on a tin can during the Iranian Hostage Crisis in 1980 well North of Gonzo Station. Kind of hard to forget either of those. It was the days of "conflicts other than war'' that they don't talk about much.

[@drewm4914]

This was an awesome video. I had no idea how Walker affected the F-14.

[@historybuff8136]

Read a few articles about the walkers over the years but did not know about the degradation of the F 14 fighting abilities

[@BillBSET]

I like your show Ward. I was an AX in HS 15 on the America.. The rotorheads are the first to leave in the morning and the last to come in so I went to the code room every morning to get the codes so I could punch the birds. This morning the door was open, there's no guard, there's no code guy, the safe is open and the codes are laying on the desk. Just about flight ops, I gotta get up to the helicopters so I set the codes, punch the birds that are going to fly. Well, they were yesterday's codes LOL…. And of course I took responsibility for it even though everybody was mad at me. :-) The Russians followed us everywhere and picked up all of our garbage we could see them scoop it up with nets. But everybody knew violating the rules and selling secrets is treason. Hell, there was a thing we did they still don't talk about I don't know why, you'd figure the tech was so old it wouldn't matter. But they are not listed anywhere. But it was all supersecret testing stuff we did for antisubmarine warfare. Thanks for your shows enjoy listening, thank you

[@WardCarroll]

Thanks for what you did, Bill.

[@patrickmccrann991]

I served as the CMS Custodian on USS Belknap (CG-26) in 89-91. She was the Com6thFlt flagship at the time. There were huge changes to the CMS program throughout the Navy after the Walker spy ring. One of the changes was the restrictions placed on how long and often someone could serve as Custodian. This included bringing in different rates including mine. I was a Chief Operations Specialist and had one of the largest CMS accounts in the Navy...over 4000 line items. I was told this would've never happened before Walker. Custodians were either officers or Senior Enlisted in certain rates; RM, CT, IS, etc. Myself and a Signalman Chief were the Custodian and Primary Alternate for almost 2 years until we transferred. OSCS(SW) USN RET'D 1978-2002 AIC/S C/S "CRANE"

[@hinnantp]

Was underway on the Wainwright when this went down…

[@kitanisthe]

As a USAF Graphics Specialist in 1987 I did a briefing (Making up the slides) for a officer about the Russians use of Lasers to blind our Navy and USAF pilots off Soviet vessels. It was a classified briefing and the officer who had me do it had me incorporate some unique graphics tricks to highlight the diagrams to emphasize the effects and the capabilities of that effort. I was floored when I opened up a copy of Aerospace and Defense Weekly in 1990 and found a article and they had taken the slides and cut off the "Secret" markings off and printed the slides word for word and diagrams when talking about the efforts I recognized the work and they did not take off my watermark ident that I had put on the slides.. I took the magazine from the base library to the AFOSI office and expressed my concern.. the OSI told me that because it was in print and there was nothing we could do about it.. So relax and do not worry about it.. Three years later.. I was visited by a agent of the Defense Investigation Agency and they were asking questions about it.. They determined that I was not the one who release the info.. but they were trying to track down who did.. Classified material, even when its released is still a concern in my opinion

[@jeffbrooks8024]

It was imprinted in our brains as junior communicator that the official secrets act applied and the penalty started at seven years. This still burns bright after leaving the navy thirty years ago. I was similarly floored when Sixty Minutes did a tell ALL story about just the things I had been keeping quiet about all this time. I must say I felt betrayed.

[@idolhanz9842]

Well, that truly is disgusting and it appears those deadbeat gumshoes should have upon publication properly investigated the breach, if there was in fact one as stuff gets declassified by different reviewing authorities ..

[@DonWan47]

@@kitanisthe that’s outrageous. There should have been an immediate investigation and charges brought against the leaker.

[@victorcarter5754]

Gentlemen thank you for a most interesting insight into the Walker affair. I hadn't realised that the damage went beyond USN Submarine capability and I was completely unaware of the damage done to USN air warfare operations.

[@MichaelJenkins910]

I heard about this, growing up in an Army family during the Cold War, but this video added a level of detail I hadn't heard. Thank you both for taking the time to help educate me on the subject!

[@gronkfest]

Excellent edition..I had no idea about this..now I’m facinated to read more about it

[@chrisl2632]

read "Family of Spies". Great book. Hard to put down.

[@gronkfest]

@@chrisl2632 i ordered it after watching this 👍🏻

[@GraemePayne1967Marine]

One thing I remember about John Walker was that he owned several real estate proerties in the Charleston SC area. It turned out that one of them was the building used as the local VFW Post!

[@94668]

Well, he was a patriot,no? Snark!🤣

[@normanhurt8754]

You have an great channel. It gives a peek behind the curtain for folks who love aviation.

[@BigDaddy_MRI]

Nice picture of Nimitz. I saw a few of my VA-86 Sidewinder A7-E’s on the flight deck. Sweet nostalgia. Thanks very much!

[@kenprignano2740]

Mooch USS America is at a depth of 16,000 feet. I don’t think many are diving on her. Great channel

[@thunderK5]

Thank you for this, as I hadn't known about this aspect of the Walker Ring and the damage it did.

[@robd3747]

I missed the live stream but enjoyed the replay!

[@davidhobbs5421]

Jerry Whitworth is a guest of the government at USP Atwater in California and Michael ( now Lance ) is living on Cape Cod and is an artist. Not sure why he's not Jerry's cellmate.

[@amcds2867]

Treason is such a sad thing.

[@sjoormen1]

even worse if is reason was greed.

[@skyking1328]

Yeah ! love this video. I was a CMS custodian on the ground when I wasn't flying, at the time for the Tacamo acft. We used Guam Airborne Kilo Whiskey units. When the Walker case came out I couldn't believe the the Soviets were copying our complete broadcast from Phil, Japan and Guam. We had complete Intel of the Western Pacific on there. My biggest pith off, in the beginning, is as a CT I had students sent to the Pueblo and other shipmates to the Liberty. NSA sent me to Synop Turkey. Had fun there .My friends on the other two ships were shrouded in classified political BS. That was an American Navy crime. I changed rate to AT to be with my love of aircraft and finished my career with short of 4K flight hours. Skipper, love your videos, Thank You ! //ATCS sends

[@paultemple5042]

As my Uncle who was a Naval Aviator once told me, Nothing in Jane's Fighting Ships etc is Classified.

[@jonathancarroll1283]

What an interesting discussion! Thanks again, Mooch. Interestingly, my 11th grade English teacher (Mr. Walker) looked like I punched him in the gut when I mentioned the Walker Spy Ring. He said they were his close relatives. Mr. Walker sucked as a teacher but it was weird to see a grown man caught off guard by a 17YO kid who paid attention to the news.

[@Jerry74]

As a fan of history and aviation this was great and informative. Crazy how much the Walkers really endangered the Fleet.

[@edschoenstein1893]

Big NoNo. Having worked several classified and SAP projects we got grilled, too. Never take the classified material out of the classified space or connect unclassified to classified and vice versa. It could end your career. We now know how deep the swamp goes…. Tip of the iceberg…. “you can’t trust your eyes they can deceive you”

[@timblack6422]

I like the teddy in the cockpit by the front windscreen

[@scottbernard9465]

I was a Aviation Ordnanceman in a helo squadron on Nimitz from 1990 to 1994 this very subject was talked about all the time

[@vidar7106]

Mike Walker, a fellow AW, and I were on liberty together in Israel. When we got back to the Nimitz, Mike was arrested right in front of me.

[@vidar7106]

He had 150 lbs of message traffic in this rack he had not sent to his father yet. I was in the ASW Module awaiting my Aircrews Candidate School orders. Mike was a Yoman that worked in the ship's Operation Department Office. He got out in 2005 and now works in the U.S. government training folks on detecting espionage.

[@glennsoucy4359]

Haifa was a great port. Were you in 24 or 9?

[@vidar7106]

@@glennsoucy4359 ASW Module.

[@roberttouhey681]

Thanks for your service guys.

[@dbowsherlv]

Good to see you on the show, Hey Joe!

[@guysparks]

Whitworth is still alive, 83 (in 2022). Still in prison too. Got the heaviest sentence of all of them.

[@RyeOnHam]

I remember carrying that vinyl pouch around EVERYWHERE! Not the Navy, but it was the same stupid pouch. I distinctly remember my first set of orders after basic and the feeling I got slipping that packet into my stupid vinyl pouch.

[@frankrizzo1433]

I was an ARMY SECURITY AGENCY CRYPTO TECH 1970-1974. Security was #1 and there was no debate about it! We had access to Top Secret and Top Secret +, I will just leave it at that. Most of us were draftees who re enlisted for electronics for four years. I can honestly say from the E-2s and any other E rating we all lived SECURITY! At the beginning of each shift ( Trick) the senior NCO was responsible to physical accounting for EVERY SINGLE piece of classified documents and equiptment. The same procedure was followed at the end of each shift ( Trick). This procedure was carried out WORLDWIDE at every ASA site. It was followed in Vietnam, Europe, State Side! All of us had a seven year travel restriction after ETS! I spent my last year in Berlin, when the Wall was still up, Security was no joke in Berlin. When we moved classified material or equiptment around Berlin we were armed, most of us were Vietnam Vets, so we knew how to use weapons. Just an FYI! FJB!

[@CosmosNut]

Heard about all this after I got out into civilian life, not the damage but the initial bust announcement. The Pueblo was a disaster and when I was in my 'C' schools at Mare Island (late 70's to early 80's)... anyway there were so many repercussions! It wasn't until years later (years after honorable discharge) I learned how badly we were compromised. Great video, thank you both.

[@philbrown7499]

What happened to the good old days when Traitors are shot?

[@CS-zn6pp]

Politicians didn't want to risk ending up against a wall so they got rid of it...

[@bugalaman]

As someone who worked on USAF EW systems, this really pisses me off. I'm glad those traitors were locked up, though, prison is too good for them.

[@Hupernike45]

Some best friends of mine, to this day, and I were on the America in VF33 and VF102 during that North Atlantic trip that Hey Joe mentioned. Prison was too good for those guys.

[@capchuckpriceutyoub]

@Ward I would love to see a Part 2 of this topic, if possible, to include a former Soviet counterpart pilot to compare the impact of this leak on both sides of the Cold War. It would be fascinating to me to hear their thoughts/concerns in concert with yours. Did they believe the intelligence they received? Did they worry that it might be intentional leaks to throw them off of our true capabilities? Thank you for this content and all you do.

[@Ryanboy2020]

I remember the Walkers arrest on T.V. but I always thought it was mainly the Submarine fleet that suffered the most from their betrayal. I had no idea that the F-14 and our missle tech was exploited.

[@JohnRodriguesPhotographer]

Actually during the Vietnam war some of the breeches and documents provided by The Walker spy ring indirectly or directly resulted in American casualties and death. More than adequate reason to hang the little bastard

[@unclemikedoyle]

I was a young L/Cpl in the ordnance shack. There were a lot of espionage stories breaking in that period. Consensus among those of us on PRP was that they should have been shot. Call me old-fashioned, but I still think they should have been shot...

[@zzbudzz]

Yes! Spy's and traitors to our country should be shot ...even up to the highest levels in our govt !!

[@actaeon299]

As an ex-submariner, I AGREE.

[@superdave1921]

Or boiled alive in hot oil!

[@theccpisaparasite8813]

No disagreement. We soldiers have very little sympathy for traitors. String em up by the balls and bayonet them.

[@benjaminrush4443]

What would the Ruskes do? The whole family would just disappear.

[@lberry750]

Jeez...you could run cyclic ops off Walker's forehead.... Hey Joe's stories about his involvement with LANTIRN are eye-opening (from another podcast). Great interview

[@michaelchristensen5421]

Unless it has changed since I retired in 2010, the Navy hasn't changed at all as far as classified material goes. I use to change all the safe codes in my squadron. Including all the secret and top secret stuff. I was also in charge of the COMSEC. I cannot tell you how many times I have gotten codes and because I was by myself, I knew the combination codes to both locks. I had access to so much classified stuff and nobody second guessed what I was doing or even looked to see what I was doing. What kept it safe was my integrity and professionalism to my service and country. The craziest thing was being on deployment to Sigonella, Sicily once. I was the only one to stay over from the squadron between the Christmas and New Year's Eve deployments. The base didn't know I was there, so when I went to turn in the COMSEC KICK loader that had the codes for the radios loaded in them, they would not take them because they didn't know I had stayed there. They said nobody from my command was supposed to be there because the incoming crew broke down in England. So I was in Sicily by myself for five days. The base wouldn't take my COMSEC gear, and I needed to goto out in town to get something for the incoming CO. So I took the long cable and fed it through the hole in the back of the toilet in my room in the barracks. If they wanted it badly, they were going to break the toilet to get it. It was only locked there for 90 minutes. Stupid crap.

[@matthewnewnham-runner-writer]

Fascinating - and of course, very timely (no coincidence, I'm sure). Thanks for another excellent episode, @Ward.

[@anthonydunn908]

Hello Mr Carroll , once again you have presented exceptional content , thank you. I being a retired member of the United States Navy, both active and reserve have always after hearing the news about the Walkers espionage, has angered me. I served in the cold war erra 1980 to 1984 , part of the tip of the spear as a member of VQ-1. Those people put my life, the lives of our country in grave danger for money. Not to mention the toll to naval aviation during the Vietnam War. I to Mr Carroll have a long lasting love of aviation and specifically naval aviation. I am somewhat of a buff , historian of this world that I was blessed to be part of. Thank you again Mr Carroll and may you have a good day.

[@vanceb1]

Walker wasn't the only one selling us out. His buddy Senior Chief Petty Officer Jerry Whitworth sold the Soviets our cryptographic keying material. I was the comms officer on the USCGC MIDGETT in the early 80s. We were homeported in Alameda. Whitworth worked at the comm center at NAS Alameda. We picked up our crypto material from guess where and guess who. We were always sweating bullets at the thought of losing some of that stuff. If that stuff (all TS) went astray you would get hanged. It turns out Whitworth would go out into the parking lot at lunch and take photos of all of the keying material. He would then send the photos to the Soviets. As a result, they were reading all of the classified message traffic sent over the circuits that used that keying material. All the time we were losing sleep over losing custody of that stuff Whitworth was sending it straight to the Russians.

[@obsoleteprofessor2034]

His dad had a bar in Mendota. When the son got arrested he closed the place down out of shame and went to live in the woods on east side of valley.

[@mikeslattery8715]

Jail was far too good, for these characters!☝️😳💥☠️🧐☝️😡❗

[@jeffbrooks8024]

Between the Walkers and the loss of Pueblo, the effect on naval comms was catastrophic

[@frankrizzo5594]

I was in the CG in the early 80's and security was always a top priority. It is eerie to listen to these great aviators talk about their encounters the same time we were in.

[@curtiskretzer8898]

Whitworth was not listed on wiki for "Spies for foreign countries"(I added it,but it needs a wikisplaination)

[@czarfore]

Read Punk's War this past weekend. I liked it a lot. Be sure they get Glen Powell to play Punk when the movie gets made.

[@wernerc.432]

Great vid Mooch! Thank you!

[@EdwardTBurke-pv3qr]

Dave Parsons! Good to see you nearly 40 years after we were both in Air Wing One. We probably have communicated on the radio (E-2C to F-14) many, many times. Everything is great with me, my best wishes to you! Ted Burke.

[@themadcentrist9396]

Interesting discussion. I grew up in Norfolk and my mother was one of Michael's HS teachers. I remember the story well. I also remember the Phantom well. Impressively loud and dirty engines. :)

[@vanceb1]

I read a book about these guys. According to the author, the most Walker ever made was about $50K/year. Not only was he a dirtbag but he worked cheap.

[@LRRPFco52]

Same as many high-level politicians. They sell out for cheap, mainly because they have compromising material on them already.

[@majorlee76251]

At that time. That was a lot of money

[@vanceb1]

@@majorlee76251 That was the most he got. He often made a lot less. Also, according to that book, Walker contacted the Soviets not the other way around. The Soviets initially blew him off thinking the guy was a kook. He persisted and finally got them to fork over some cash.

[@LuvBorderCollies]

I remember the Soviets had a reputation for being cheapskates paying for info. The US had a rep for being generous handing out money to spies.

[@LuvBorderCollies]

@@majorlee76251 50k was nothing to sneeze at but a petty amount to ruin your life forever.

[@LilSebastian_]

The RAG in case anyone was wondering… Replacement Air Group When I hear something and I don’t know what it means, I look it up and learn something new. This is my favorite military flying channel. There are other ones that are decent, but I feel like they’re talking at me instead of to me. Mooch speaks more like a college professor who is telling interesting stories, but he’s also teaching. At least that’s how I view his videos.

[@benjaminperez7328]

While you’re bullsh***ing, Mooch WAS a college professor at USNA!

[@LilSebastian_]

It’s a little early in the evening and week to already be drunk lil fella.

[@benjaminperez7328]

@@LilSebastian_ ?

[@frankbodenschatz173]

Thanks for the episode! Angered me as well USAF ECM B-52G.

[@Yosy47]

Hope there are more episodes on intelligence / naval intelligence. Fascinating stuff.

[@Azframer]

You mentioned VT-10 in Pensacola. Next door to my family we had 3 guys in VT-10, Mace's Men of War was their class. Doug Johnson got assigned to A-6s, Paul Jenson got P-3s, and Clay Penson got F-14s.

[@Patrick_B687-3]

I could be wrong, but Hey Joe seems like any old guy you could pull up next too at the bar, and have a great conversation. I like that.

[@ronaryel6445]

Great show. Thank you.

[@markhouff1648]

Not directly related to the subject, but the image of the Diamondback F-14 with the carrier (AMERICA?) in the background used to be on postcards in the racks at hotels in Norfolk and Va Beach-good 1980s memories (and a cool photo from Hey Joe)!

[@bryonforeman195]

My brother was in Boot Camp with Michael Walker. The two were friends and upon graduation, Michael came to our home and spent a night or two with our family. This was Dec 1982, I joined the Marine Corps in 1983 and remember when this all came about. I was in disbelief as was my brother who immediately reported his contact with Michael to NIS. We still have pictures from that weekend of Michael at our home. Crazy situation.

[@marbleman52]

Byron....Yea, that would be real creepy....!!

[@michaelmartinez1345]

That is when I joined The Marine Corps... December of '82... Of coarse few people at that time in that place, knew what was going on with the espionage... At least, my fellow Marines & I were not aware of it, at that time... I found out about it later, when my buddies & I heard about it, when we were at MCAS ElToro... The initial feeling was shock, then a sick feeling, then anger.... Nobody, wanted these people who committed treason against all of our people, to get away with this.... I can't understand WHY people like this are kept alive for so long after they have been proven to be guilty of treason.... Maybe so their contacts can be identified, but IDK.... They should be given hard labor for their remaining days of life, to pay for the many lives that were lost because of them, as hundreds of agents were exposed and executed when the traiters revealed who they are.... Anger, for who they are and what they did ..

[@wilfred8326]

They were still talking about the Walkers when I went through Army Basic in 2000....

[@scottvannederynen6429]

This episode brought back fond memories. When the Walker case broke, I was at an EW contractor working to bring a new system into the US inventory. It was an interesting work environment. I appreciated the discussion on missile shots in a jamming environment.

[@RobertRAbell]

Kudos Gentleman and thank y’all for your Service. I’m an old Navy swabby from the early Seventies and the conflicting stories coming back from Viet Nam were not the same as the Lame Duck Media was Promoting at the time. Witch gave me the impression that we are not playing on the same team anymore. So I got out because of all of the Politicization in the Military at that time. Kudos to all Service members loosing their lives for the Land of the Fre and the Home of the Brave. All day long Yahoo

[@bobwampler3387]

Amazing story. I only knew bits and pieces back then.

[@davesimmer5617]

Good discussion, thanks. I was over there when the Pueblo was taken. We steamed up near there and was awaiting orders, but nothing came.

[@ATCDave1]

Great video- thanks guys!

[@jeffreyjohnson8212]

Timely topic… Message boards, red/green pens, squadron safes, etc….brought back some memories! We handled classified material in the post-Walker period much better than we do today, me thinks. Thanks for another great video!

[@johndeckjr8132]

I had just gone through Airman Apprenticeship Training at RTC/NTC San Diego in 1986...The Walkers had really screwed our shit up....

[@mr.m8539]

Thank you that very informative episode.

[@dutchbrotherfan1284]

A great episode. I feel this is a great reminder to never let your guard down. If something’s fishy say something. It’s not paranoia if you have the facts.