Warhammer the Old World - Legacy PDF Factions are better than core? Plus chaos dwarfs...

Matt and Robin are convinced that once the dust settles and all this blows over, the legacy PDF players will consider themselves in a good spot! As disappointing as it is to have your favourite faction be unsupported, there are definite plus points. Here they sit down and chew over a few of them.
Music:
Achievement by Alexander Nakarada (www.creatorchords.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons BY Attribution 4.0 License
ttps://creativecommons.org/licenses/...

[@earnestwanderer2471]

I’ve no actual direct knowledge of this, but... I’ve just heard/read so many people reporting that there’s a real divide between the main studio and the specialty games. Supposedly that’s why you don’t see Space Marines in Necromunda, and why necromunda had to develop its own brand of space dwarfs. Don’t know if it’s parochialism or friendly rivalry but it seems to exist. Pretty obvious that there was an attempt to reserve certain factions for AoS so the two games (AoS and OW) wouldn’t complete directly. You’re seeing something similar in Kill Team this season... but almost the reverse. Rather than developing actual Kill Team sets, GW is just releasing 40k units in the KT boxes. So, if you’re trying to track sales, it becomes impossible. Just given the relative size of the customer bases, you have to assume that a lot of the Kill Team sales are going to 40k players, not KT players.

[@TabletopSaga]

Is kill team an SDS game? That’s all really interesting. I don’t have much knowledge of the other game systems so this is all new to me! It seems so stupid that GW would tolerate a parochial rivalry like that. But then big companies do make silly decisions 🥴

[@Emanon...]

They're better than Empire. I know they're supposed to be "standard", but they're seriously lacking "uumf" and something that makes them special. Especially with the overall nerf of artillery and the general inadequacy of their small arms fire.

[@TabletopSaga]

I think the detachment rule has definitely lowered their uniqueness. That was a cool empire only thing that now everyone can do (even if it’s not quite the same thing).

[@earnestwanderer2471]

The attempt to segregate sales is a waste of time. The owner of my FLGS has seen a significant uptick in sales of AoS minis specifically for use in Old World. You can see it’s true just by looking at the shelves in the store. Seraphon are cleaned out, the the manager said it’s all folks building Lizardmen armies for OW.

[@TabletopSaga]

Yeah I think they knew it would be impossible to 100% segregate the sales, but this does give them a better indication. I think there is a lot in the idea that they didn’t want to spend the cash/time to support every single faction, and if you draw the line somewhere it’s as well being somewhere that’s vaguely useful. Ultimately I just hope the game is enough of a success that they all come back eventually! 😁

[@mogwaiman6048]

They probably won't age well, but TOW isn't really meant to be a matched play game. It won't be getting quarterly updates like AoS and 40k do.

[@TabletopSaga]

I imagine if and when the core factions get updates then the legacy factions will indeed get left behind, but you are right - the updates will not be forthcoming! I actually think that means the rules writers were given the leeway to provide a great set of rules for old world, which I’m overjoyed about 😁

[@NuclearLetsPlay]

*cries like crazy in skaven

[@TabletopSaga]

Some lovely new models to use though! 😬

[@NuclearLetsPlay]

@@TabletopSaga Yea got two boxes by a friend of mine who owns a store but tbh.. the clanrats are a bit too exagerated for a formation i think :D

[@TabletopSaga]

Ah that sucks - I was planning to use them myself at some point 😬

[@NuclearLetsPlay]

@@TabletopSaga dont get me wrong, its doable, it just doesnt look exacctly right :D

[@tizianotaccani7651]

Still a charging Bloodthirster bodies any core lord pretty easily. Is a mixed bag indeed. And full of errors too.

[@TabletopSaga]

A charging bloodthirster is something I think we all secretly want to see 😂

[@BigDonkEnergy]

Thanks for making this video, honestly this is what I felt when I saw those PDFs... they are just as good as the rules you have to pay for.

[@TabletopSaga]

No worries, I’m glad we aren’t the only positive ones! We totally agree with you, and I’m already plotting (distant) future projects where I indulge myself with some of the pdf factions 😁

[@stuntman083]

you guys need better audio device, my volume is almost max and can still barely hear you

[@djtambor3063]

Try it on headphones, works fine.

[@TabletopSaga]

Thanks for the feedback. We are planning upgrades to audio, video, and are even planning a dedicated studio space! It’ll take time unfortunately but if you can sit tight improvements are on the way 😁

[@cyberash3000]

the vampire coutns is awful very very awful, i played them against a high elf army i think i managed to kjill 8 models in a 1000 point battle, and they wiped me out all i had left was a vampire and half a unit of skeletons didnt evenm get near to them. i reckon they made the legacy factions a bit worse than the core ones on purpose, because the legacy factions are thee to get you addicted then move you over to spend money on a "live" army

[@TabletopSaga]

I’m sorry to hear you’ve had such a rough game! I think it still stands that the rules given to the legacy factions are way more detailed than I ever expected, but I will accept that often times GW write stronger factions than other!

[@cyberash3000]

and i really do believe they made the legacy factions weaker on purpose, they would be crazy not to, at the end of the day the yare a business and want you to spend money not use old armeis, as that doesnt generate profit @@TabletopSaga

[@mightyg4538]

Well, maybe the issue was the list, not the army. My experience with VC is entirely different. 11 Black knights + 7 Blood knights supported with necro and vamp are unstoppable. Whatever dies, comes back next turn, while just crushing trough enemy lines. Try different approach maybe?

[@cyberash3000]

@mightyg4538 no I don't think it is. Take a look at the vampire coubts army and then rake a look the supported armies theybare all slightly over priced and underpowered compared to the supported armies you can tell with even the tiniest bit of intelligence and knowledge and common sense that they have been over priced and underpowered compared to the supported factions. You can actually see from a business point of view that thwy have done this on purpose to funnel people into buying a core army and spending money on the game by underpowered the unsupported armies. And if you ever ran a business you could understand why theybare doing it. Its no different than a pub offering a discount on nearly out of date beer to get people in the pub,conce they are in they will buy different beer maybe food and spend more. You don't discount your best seller the new improved stock. But use old stock to lure people in The principle is the same here. They have done it just enough so that you can still play the factions but are at a small disadvantage, that way yes you can still play it but you will want the better armies as that gap will only get bigger as time time progresses. And that's the point It's a business at the end of the day they don't care really what fans want they care about what makes money if that aligners with what fans want then great. But they want people to buy the miniatures. And they want old players to start a new supported army.

[@mightyg4538]

I totally don’t agree with your perceived power level of non-core factions. DE are great, VC too. Skaven have weird way of list building but it is for the better imo. Take a look at Blood Knights vs Chaos Chosen knights. 44 vs 41 (43 if you mark them). But Blood Knights are unbreakable, fear causing unit that can be easily resurrected without enemy even having a chance to stop it… they get it for price of two-three zombies. Which brings us to zombies… three blocks of 40 zombies mean the units fighting them are probably bogged down for 3 turns. Those same zombies can also be resurrected over the starting cap of things go well for the black/blood knights. Necromancer can cast 5 spells per turn, supported by his Invocation and Bound Magic Missile and access to Frenzy+Hatered spell on a stick. Do you think Grave Guard is worse than Chaos Warriors? Or overcosted? Really?

[@DerOrk]

Feel like the Legacy Factions are a real mixed bag. People who had been given early access just days ahead noticed quite a few differences between what they got and what we got. Seems like the delayed release from when they were originally ment to drop might have been due to last minute re-writes. Skaven in perticular are rough, between missing units, missing wargear, missing mounts, missing mechanics - and special rules that are described in their rules section but absent from any actual unit, I find it hard to get excited for them; aswell as strange, draconian restrictions to Clan Pestilens units to the point where building a themed army doesn't seem viable at all. Slaves are just gone with nothing to fill the void, clearly not a creatively driven decission. Dark Elves obviously need to fixes aswell, with Witch Elves and Executioners not working as written. And I can not understand for the life of me why Daemons can't ally with the other Chaos factions. Ally system overall is just spartan for these armies. Vampires look pretty complete and well playable though I guess.

[@TabletopSaga]

You’ve made some valid points for sure. I definitely don’t get the lack of skaven slaves or the daemon non-allying! I still think though that the rules offering given to the legacy factions is much more robust than I was expecting, and I still think they are in an excellent spot for miniature support!

[@toro132]

legacy factions are copy/paste rules of core faction as dark elf copied high elfs and vampires from khemri but nerfed version with worse stats and skills and expensiver. legacy armys are balanced vs legacy and legacy are underpower vs core

[@TabletopSaga]

First off, thanks for commenting! 😁 I’m afraid I’m going to push back a little though - I feel like you make a fair point about the copy paste, but I also feel like it has been ever thus. Dark elves and high elves are two sides of the same coin, and share a lot of units because of a shared heritage. And vampire counts and Khemri likewise have a lot of crossover. As such I would expect a bit of copy pasting, and actually would be disappointed if there wasn’t! As for your point about the power I’m not sure, because I haven’t gamed with them yet and am not really a power gamer anyway, so I won’t comment on that and instead take your word for it 😁

[@ndalum75]

@@TabletopSaga What he means by copy pasting, is what has been done with necromancers and vampires. Traditionally, Vampires were the do it all duelists and mages, the unit that made up for the low WS of much of the rest of the army. Powerhouses who were unparalleled in combat, and decent enough in casting. They were almost always picked out as generals, because if your general died bad things happen for Vampires, and they were exceptionally durable. In the pdf, Vampires can't even heal their own units without taking a vampiric power. Basic magic, now a LD test, on which the army relies, is denied to them, unless they pay a 30 pt tax. Without armour, you do not want them in the thick of combat, and being your general. With armour, they cannot cast, but you must pay 30 pts to be a level 1 wizard, in order to make him your general. There's all sorts of anti synergy, which points at the intended decision of "just make your Necromancer your general, like a Hierophant for Tomb Kings". This wasn't done much in the past, and butts heads against the lore a bit, as Vampires are usually higher in the pecking order then Necromancers. On top of that, you can't even march your undead while they're close to your general! I'm not aware of a single edition where a VC general didn't provide a march bubble, ever. Tomb Kings didn't have access to this, but this was balanced by their ranged abilities and monsters. It speaks to laziness, a rush, or something to try to push Vampires into a similar mold to Tomb Kings. But this just makes Vampires sort of like worse Tomb Kings, with maybe a few unique units like Blood Knights, to try to balance it all out.