Was Fatima a miracle or delusion? Michael Nugent debates Martin Gordon

[@anastasia2657]

Some people saw nothing at all; all others saw different things. The commission investigating it said witnesses were lost. The witnesses they did have were "professionals."

[@MickPosch]

How many skeptics are convinced that something miraculous happened that day? Judging by comments on the internet. pretty much zilch. But the purpose of this was to perform a miracle "so that all may believe". So, we have a miracle aimed at skeptics, but it takes faith to believe it. Geez, for a supernatural being, Mary didn't think this through very thoroughly.

[@GravityBoy72]

Yes... and if it's so important that "all may believe" then do it again... during the Superbowl or in St Peter's Square. Everyone who supposedly saw it in 1917 is dead now... so what was the point?

[@jesusheals3799]

@@GravityBoy72 Superbowl? Seriously? why on earth would she appear there, when it's a completely carnal event.

[@GravityBoy72]

@@jesusheals3799 So that people may believe?

[@jesusheals3799]

@@GravityBoy72 people who are arrogant and ignorant?

[@Chafflives]

@@jesusheals3799 Now THAT is a big leap of faith to condemn so many people. Another ‘fact’ perhaps?

[@dukadarodear2176]

It's hard to believe that a mature man can defend such utter nonsense as the mass hysteria of Fatima and the Easter Sunday morning Dancing sun. Lourdes is even more ridiculous. The entire Lourdes episode occurred in the head of a single peasant girl with no Independent corroboration.

[@gdd240]

A better miracle would have been stopping WW1 and restoring to health all those people who had been wounded.

[@BuvazoiSimboguan]

It that happened, atheists would still try to debunk it. “To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.” St. Thomas Aquinas

[@unknownknown235]

Actually a huge part of the fatima story is Mary telling the children of fatima that peoples sins and communism have done this and she apparently predicted the Second World War if the pope did not consecrate Russia to Mary

[@alfredomaldonado6614]

@@BuvazoiSimboguan yup your right they would of probably come with an explanation of how it’s similar to lizards growing back their tails

[@Badtown1988]

If there is a God, he’s an asshole. There’s no denying that.

[@alfredomaldonado6614]

@@Badtown1988 you must have more faith to believe that than those who believe there is no free will

[@noway325]

If you stare at the sun long enough it does appear to dance

[@koppite9600]

The sun didnt hurt their eyes so they were comfortable. And don't be a fool because you can easily recreate the delusion if it was a delusion. The sun seemed to fall on these people, now go outside and look at the sun so you can respect your answer that it was a delusion

[@noway325]

@@koppite9600 I'm pretty sure noone mentioned the word delusion but you and it's not very nice to call someone a fool. You know who you sound like ? My incredibly religious grandmother any hint of someone disagreeing about Catholicism brought out her wrath because , let's face it , if you weren't a born a Catholic , chances are you'd feel it is incredibly flimsy and extremely unrealistic all of our religion. It's nuts and that's why you feel the need to shout the smallest hint of a critacism down because if you use critical thinking there is a good chance you'll come to the conclusion it's BS

[@koppite9600]

@@noway325 let me accept all that. Lets use critical thinking. Three kids report seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary. Their parents are hard on them and one is banned from going to that place. The apparitions happen again. They continue to happen and one day the Virgin Mary promises a miracle for the general population on a set day. The day comes and tens of thousands witness an abnormal behaviour of the sun. They report it as a miracle. The smart atheist comes along and brands these thousands fools who couldn't tell a rare but normal behaviour of the sun. These people didn't witness a miracle they were deceived by their eyes. Did 3 kids really run a lie on a whole community? Didnt end it there... they managed to pull many tricks on the biggest religious Church? The media bought into their kid story. How many people are fools with the exception of smart atheists? Your position is that of arrogance and nothing more.

[@noway325]

@@koppite9600 yes and your a typical Catholic and the reason so many people leave the church . There is no kindness and it's probably why you won't get to heaven you'd rather be right than kind . Good luck with that

[@koppite9600]

@@noway325 that's true but let's agree that to dismiss the witness of thousands is arrogance. I was abrasive but I was honestly angry.

[@markclipp331]

It's call "mass hysteria ". That's it. Not brain surgery.

[@petercole5858]

Mass hysteria does not explain how during the torrential rain, people's clothes were dry and also the miracle was witnessed by people many miles away.

[@60andUP]

Confirmation Bias. The church needs a ‘miracle’ and ‘sainthood’ like any business uses PR

[@arrivagabry]

God can do anything because he is powerful, that is the easy answer to everythig when they have no logical explaination. It is a quick fix....

[@carlmango11]

Is there a link to the full debate?

[@gerard1867]

I think the main mistake that most atheists make is trying to explain a miracle scientifically when the very definition of a miracle is that it can't. The atheist in this clip here is allowed by the believer to put forth a false dichotomy and he should not have been allowed to do so. His whole argument was that there were only 2 options; either the earth shifted on its axis, or 70,000 people were delusional. There's a third answer. God exists, and performed a miracle.

[@thebaddestogre-3698]

What a stupid parlor trick of a miracle directed at a single location. A real miracle would be giving an amputee his legs back. If he really wanted everyone to believe in him there are so many more effective miracles even a small minded human like myself can think of.

[@tonywallens217]

@@thebaddestogre-3698 There will always be a higher standard for what one would consider a miracle. I can already hear atheists saying "its more reasonable to believe the amputee had some condition that allowed for a regeneration of the legs than that God did it. It must just be something science is yet to discover the reason for." There's no ceiling high enough.

[@sarahyoung232]

@@thebaddestogre-3698 if that were the miracle, I can imagine that atheists would just say that there’s some limb regeneration mechanism that we don’t understand yet. If God had shown this sun miracle to the whole world, can you imagine the worldwide chaos that would have ensued? Don’t pretend that you have more perspective than God.

[@markoantonio7493]

The trouble with believers is their willingness to use circular logic to confirm their own belief system. You cannot conclude a supernatural cause without first proving that the supernatural exists in a meaningful way. If supernatural is just a label for things which you have yet to find any other explanation, then you would also have to conclude supernatural causes for the myriad of other unexplained non-Christian 'miracles' or strange happenings that have been reported throughout history. Back in biblical times people with epilepsy would've been said to have demons; Now we treat them with medication because we learned otherwise. As far as Fatima is concerned it isn't hard to produce other explanations for what some of those who gathered claimed to have seen: Optic hallucinations from staring at the sun, group suggestion & hysteria (Salem Witch trials) and false memory are all plausible answers. It's on record that the accounts of what happened were very different. Some saw flashing lights and colours, others say the sun vibrated and spun, some say it hurtled towards them and many others say they saw nothing at all. Which account is trustworthy? Believers don't care about logic, they just want to confirm their bias.

[@arrivagabry]

God can do anything, he created the earth, the stars and the universe, he created man and woman, animals and plants, but he also created the devil, hell, pain , the deformed, the blind, germs, illnesses, sufference, pain, death of innocent children, cancer, hunger, he could of done a better job...

[@sub-zero7008]

Who are you to question God ? He’s God for fucks sake ! 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@arrivagabry]

@@sub-zero7008 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@sub-zero7008]

@@arrivagabry I’m crying in laughter honestly 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@arrivagabry]

@@sub-zero7008 I know, you can't contest a god can you? Especially one that screws up a lot. 🤣 with all his magical power he could of done a better job. Kids are raped, sold, abused and die of starvation, and what does he prefer to do? Sends the virgin Mary to Fatima so 3 illiterate kids could save the world in his mind, or gives stigmata di a delusional guy in Italy Padre Pio, like that helps a lot 🤣useless miracles good for nothing.

[@Chipmonk1963]

It is a complete waste of time to talk about the effects of the Earth moving or the Sun moving. That is not even a question - if either did (abnormally!) everyone on the Earth would have noticed the effect. The question is was the appearance of such, as predicted ahead of time, and witnessed by so many, including the physical evidence of rain drenched clothes being instantly dried with no plausible scientific explanation a sign from a Supreme Being, or from an Intelligence posing as a messenger from a Supreme Being?

[@anastasia2657]

The people who were there did not see it. Many saw nothing at all; and everyone else saw different things. In a book called, "Meet the Witnesses", one woman witness turned to the woman next to her and said, "did you see anything?" If the sun came down on top of them all, that is not a question you would ask.

[@miguelbrito7823]

even in Portugal we think its BS

[@Chafflives]

Money-making BS.

[@blindtruth4614]

Just examine the case and it shows that people did not even see the same thing "17 October 1917 O Seculo, "The people ask one another if they have seen anything. The greatest number avow that they have seen the trembling and dancing of the sun. Others however ... swear that the sun fell almost to the point of burning the earth with its rays" there is additionally accounts of people seeing the sun change color while others did not notice that at all, so what is the miracle I am supposed to be impressed with here exactly? The fact that if the sun started to dance or nearly fell to earth, of the one where if any of these things occurred it would not have been witnessed by billions of people not just thousands and yet they noticed absolutely nothing?

[@calinvasilca893]

Of course the Sun could dance in the sky, the lady in the bus says so 😂😂😂

[@moinulhaque4665]

I am ex muslim atheist from Bangadesh. I think Michael Nugent is awesome .

[@averagejoe1659]

Wind horse argument destroyed the poor old fella

[@GTNover]

As an atheist, I don't think the fact that the rest of the world had a normal sun during the time the sun danced in Fatima does much to disprove the miracle. Wouldn't a supernatural omnipotemt force be able to make the sun appear to dance in one location, but be normal elsewhere?

[@FranklinLaloo]

It's easy to take a man from a jungle, but it's hard to take the jungle from a man.

[@anastasia2657]

Anyone studying Fatima (from the beginning) as I did, knows it's a fake. Two people knew Sr. Lucia best. Fr. Ferrara, the parish priest, and Lucia's mother. Both knew she was a liar.

[@harpervalleypeeteeay9708]

Which Lucia? The imposter or the real one?

[@gerard1867]

www.markmallett.com/blog/2017/10/14/debunking-the-sun-miracle-skeptics/

[@sub-zero7008]

Hilarious comment ! 😂 you know nothing about it 😂

[@scullyfox4271]

I'd rather see this debate between a Protestant and a Catholic.

[@KevinChantal]

If the sun was dancing why didn't other people around the world see the sun dancing? I think we can all agree there was no miracle

[@atheistmecca971]

I'm also looking for the full debate. I can't stand watching a few minutes at a time. I need more! :) Thanks

[@DestinationDub]

I messaged them on facebook to ask for it but they didn't have the courtesy to reply.

[@DestinationDub]

I'm sure they do ***** but it would still be nice to watch it as a coherent whole.

[@scullyfox4271]

What if they were all given hallucinogen laced communion that morning?

[@davethesid8960]

It was a miracle, the axis doesn't have to move. Staring at the sun is painful, yet they still could.

[@sabrinanascimento5248]

It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Everyone witnessed something different. Some people saw it, others didn't or heard something and didn't see anything or whatever the case may be. The perception is going to be different.

[@Thehonestguy19]

I am catholic and all my life I been believing and praying for Fatima. This year 2023 I visited Fatima walked on my knees praying begging and asking for child (son) but I got daughter instead if fatima was real and loves us we would get what we ask for so it’s fake so I don’t follow her anymore I lost my time and faith so I suggest people not to follow anything blindly otherwise you regret.

[@sub-zero7008]

50,000 PEOPLE WERE WITNESS TO THE SUN DANCE !! No where in the history of Islam or any other religion was such a miracle performed in front of so many people !!! 50’000 souls were witness to it !! It’s undeniable that something absolutely incredible happened that day !!! This guy in the red t shirt needs to repent just as the blessed Virgin warned us !! Thousands of atheists were there that day and even they verified the event ! It’s undeniable ❤❤❤

[@nenadmilovanovic5271]

Just because someone says 50000 people saw it doesn't mean that happened. Even the book about the event says most people saw nothing. One man yelled "I see the miracle I swear it, call the police and I will testify I see it". Bunch of people turned around and saw nothing. 30 people went on record saying they saw it. Out of 50000, only 30.

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

No, those people thought and felt something but that doesn’t mean it’s true when they are in a group, wanting to see the sun more and being blinded by the sun. And the fatal flaw is that if the sun actually did move like that then hundreds of millions of people would have noticed it and get no one ever did. It’s clearly nonsense.

[@lianzomi6382]

The red guy: "a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a,a"

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

The religious guy doesn’t get it. He desperately wants to believe. He cannot see how absurd it is. He applies a different set of criteria to others claims.

[@sub-zero7008]

50’000 people witnessed it and here you are saying it’s absurd. It’s you who doesn’t get it 😂😂😂

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

@@sub-zero7008 How do you know 50,000 people actually saw it, rather than believing they saw it? And more crucially of all, on a planet of several billion people, do you not think that if the sun really had danced in the sky, it would have been seen by more than a very tiny number of people relative to the population of the planet? And that it’s just a coincidence all the people who claim to have seen it were there expecting to see it? If it really happened, hundreds of millions of people from around the world would have seen it too. They didn’t. That’s why your claim is absurd.

[@MarlboroughBlenheim1]

@@sub-zero7008 if it happened then why didn’t any of the other 1.9 billion people on earth report it ?

[@sub-zero7008]

@@MarlboroughBlenheim1 Well how were they meant to back in 1917 ? There was no social media then ! Or any proper news reporting hardly of any kind ! Something out of this world happened that day in Fatima and 50’000 people seen it !! Christians, atheists the lot !! It’s the greatest public miracle of all time 💯

[@t.s.1683]

Maybe People Got paid to tell the same story. I dunnow for sure...want more proove 👍

[@gerard1867]

Here's a good article about it www.markmallett.com/blog/2017/10/14/debunking-the-sun-miracle-skeptics/

[@bigbearn1383]

It is delusional to think that all speak the Truth about God including the atheists, so there can only be one truth. Who has that pedigree. The answer is the church founded by Christ which is the Catholic Church even though its people who are part of it are sinful as are atheists.

[@raylaye2884]

Mathew 18 verse 19. According to the bible, where 2 of you agree and ask for it, it will be done for them by the father in heaven. All the christian needs to do is get a Christian mate to agree to display such miracles in a scientific way so it can be independently tested and confirmed and Bob's ya uncle!!! God proved! Funny how that's never happened eh!

[@robhaidheuch]

Only seeing a short clip is insufficient. But personally, from what I've heard I could destroy the flawed logic of the guy in red in a minute flat. Lol.

[@DivinaeMisericordiae77]

Mass suggestion can be powerful but in Fatimas case alot of the people who went to the site of the miracle were unbelievers, sceptics and atheists. What alot of people dont realise is at the time Portugal was a very atheistic country. Even the secular newspapers reported the miracle. They would have loved nothing better than to see a failure. If nothing happened the seers would not have made it out alive A large unheavel would have taken place and the children and their families would have been ridiculed for life. One one thing that really stands out for me was when the mayor imprisoned the children and threatened to throw them into a pot of boiling oil unless they confessed that what they were seeing (Apparition of the Virgin Mary) was fake. Any normal child would have confessed straight away but these children didnt They were not afraid because what they saw was the truth. Another thing if God had the power to make the sun move then he can easily make the miracke appear localised. This atheists arguments are poor You cannot deny 70000 witnesses!!

[@KevinChantal]

" at the time Portugal was a very atheistic country" You are so wrong

[@DivinaeMisericordiae77]

@@KevinChantal No Im afraid you are

[@liquidGold79]

True. Plus the penances the children did. No child would do those extreme penances like that, unless they were shown hell.

[@DivinaeMisericordiae77]

@@liquidGold79 totally agree

[@sub-zero7008]

@@KevinChantalNah he’s not though