Was Joel Right?

Greg thinks Joel was wrong but he chose to save Chloe. Make it make sense!
From this episode of Gamescast: • Life Is Strange: Doubl...
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[@Alex_Logan22]

Yea the Fireflies messed up badly, even in the show where it was improved, but two wrongs don't make a right it just makes things worse. The final scene made it very clear (even before Left Behind) that this wasn't a happy ending, people acting like part 2 went against the first game are the ones outta line, not Neil. Its so funny to see the Joker fandom currently go through the same copium, trying desperately to find ways to separate the movie from the first one when both are obviously authored by the same creatives with the same intents. Greg exposing all the bad/selfish dads that went after him 10 years ago, saying he would respect his son's wishes, is a huge W for Greg.

[@IfYouSeekCaveman]

Being right and being human are two different things. Joel did the human thing.

[@benwasserman8223]

I think whether Joel was right or wrong is besides the point. In Part II, Abby really doesn’t give a shit about his motivation - he killed her dad and, in her eyes, deserved to pay.

[@ReaperHunter23]

Greg out here acting like Kate Marsh wasn't the nicest person in that game. She deserves better than to perish in the tornado 💀

[@MagmAlex]

Exactly bro “Hey Kate I know I just talked you off of that ledge a couple days ago and you are one of the biggest victims in this story but you and your entire family gotta bite it”

[@stuartlittle281]

Joel's actions are understandable, but not "right". How the Fireflies handled things was irrelevant, because it wasn't about Joel vs. Their Intentions, it was about Joel's wants vs. Ellie's Wishes. And she told him, right after the Giraffe scene, that she wanted to follow this through to the end, whatever happens. Joel ignored that in the end.

[@maldrix5449]

Most emotionally stable person in these comments

[@purefoldnz3070]

she's a child and unable to make that choice sorry. So please try again.

[@Yodagamer1]

@@purefoldnz3070 He also wasn't her father to make that choice, so he had no right to make the choice either. If anything Marlene was entrusted to be ellie's mother figure by ellie's mom so if that was ellie's choice Marlene was simply allowing her to do so.

[@maldrix5449]

@purefoldnz3070 You think a 14 yr old has no self autonomy?

[@neofinalfight]

@@purefoldnz3070 She's a child in a post apocalyptic world where it's a necessity for her to make hard choices to survive, including having to take the lives of others. It sucks that the world is the way it is, but she absolutely was placed into a role where she has greater agency and control over her life than a typical teenager would in a functioning society, and Joel can't just take that away from her because her choices would hurt him. That's not his right.

[@terranncegilmore]

Joel took away Ellie's agency. Joel was wrong. Joel did to Abby what that soldier did to him when he shot Sarah. Abby was right. Abby's arch is one of the best in any media. When we first meet her, she's waking up from a nightmare. Only later do we learn what that nightmare was. She then dedicated her life, turning her body into a machine, destroying her own relationship in her quest for revenge. Only to realize it didn't bring her closure. It's not until she sacrifices for Lev that the nightmare stops and she opens the door to find her dad standing there... And now I'm tearing up writing this

[@caryrose1370]

To me The Last of Us is about the difference between surviving and living. For 20 years Joel survived the ending of the world, he was given a rare chance to find a reason to live again and he took it. His motivations were not just out of selfishness though, he truly loved Ellie and thought if she knew what a beautiful thing life could be she would have chosen life. He did, however, make that choice for her and that is wrong. On the other hand Ellie could not possibly have given her consent to sacrifice her life without the knowledge that that is what it took to do what the fireflies wanted and not to mention the fact that she was a practically still a child who suffered from vast amounts of trauma and survivors guilt. What Abby's father wanted to do was unconscionable, the ends don't justify the means. I walked away from the first game with a sentence in my mind that I still think about from time to time "If humanity needs to sacrifice a child to save itself, then it's not worth saving." Idealistic? absolutely but as much as we like to think "hard times makes hard people" but there comes a time when you have to be human.

[@Alex_Logan22]

Joel had a history of calling the shots and creating rifts with his brother, who called him out on it, which happened during the 20 year period where he apparently had no will to live. Joel killing Abby's dad when he wasn't a threat was also unconsciousable, based on the TV show and Part 2, we can infer that Marlene convinced Abby's dad that Ellie would go through with this, even though yes he and the rest of the Fireflies should've consulted with Ellie/Joel first before taking actions, would've avoided so much unnecessary killing. I agree with your idealism but it's irrelevant when it goes against their will. Respecting others under 18 is also an ideal more people need to strive towards.

[@caryrose1370]

@@Alex_Logan22 "Joel killing Abby's dad when he wasnt a threat was also unconsciousable" im of two minds on this, it was def a bad thing to do but he was brandishing a knife and a very real threat to killing Ellie/ he did a very bad thing in a very bad emotional state. Joel is not a good person i dont think anyone says that but I can get his motivations just like i can get Abby's for wanting Joel dead. The execution of those motivations? night and day difference quality wise. I agree we should respect people under 18 more, however with age comes experience and as a 38 year old I would not let a 13 year old sacrifice their self, especially one i deeply cared for and hadn't been forewarned of the nature of what they were agreeing to. Consent is important and without information Ellie could not have given consent. Joel is wrong for murdering Abby's father, wrong for making a choice instead of waking her up and asking her what she wanted, and the fireflies are wrong for hiding the ordeal in the first place. In all this Abby and Ellie are the victims who then go on to be wrong themselves in part 2. Part 1 is joel's story of loss and redemption and part 2 is the fallout of creating a cycle of violence but if I were in Joel's shoes I cant say I would have done much different.

[@SidPhoenix2211]

I fully see Blessing's point about Life is Strange being a game about learning to let go at some level. So I do think that Chloe dying is the more fitting end. Whereas The Last of Us games are about love and all good, bad, beautiful, terrible things it can lead to (among other things).

[@LilRenlor]

I would argue the fact that the universe gives her the power to reverse time to save Chloe in the first place is saying Chloe is too important to sacrifice. I stand with Greg on this one

[@filbert910]

I will always agree with Joel’s decision to save Ellie. To be fair, the doctor wouldn’t have died if the fireflies hadn’t tried to kill Joel to prevent him from saving Ellie.

[@purefoldnz3070]

even if there was a cure they didnt have resources to mass produce one, they would just keep it for themselves and the elite members of the Fireflies. Besides you cant create a vaccine for a spore based pathogen which is not a virus.

[@Alex_Logan22]

He wasn't a threat, Joel intentionally killed him and Marlene to prevent future efforts, the soldiers after him had nothing to do with that.

[@MoonDoggie82]

Joel isn't a bad guy he just made a selfish choice. HOWEVER all of Ellie's choices and decisions were based on adults she trusted before meeting Joel and actually having a parental figure in her life lying to her. Ellie is a child and Joel made a decision that was in HER best interest, but with the Fireflies they didn't care about her or her well being. For them it was like to her, scoop out her brains and maybe ...MAYBE we find a cure that we can use to our advantage. Also remember it was a split second decision on Joel's part because nobody said anything about her having to die.

[@Alex_Logan22]

That last point is the only one worth pointing out. Marlene cared and thought about Ellie's will more than Joel, even told Joel to let her decide, but Joel knew she was right and didn't like it. While the decision to save Ellie was split second initially, killing Abby's dad and Marlene were wrong/calculated decisions to prevent further attempts for what he knew Ellie would accept.

[@stitchfan08]

I let Chloe die in my story plus i hope they bring a character back besides Chloe since i believe she will show up but i want other characters to show up to respect both endings like kate or warren

[@realrobrose]

5 minutes before running into the Fireflies Ellie all but says that the only thing that matters to her is that everyone who died to them get them there didn't die for nothing, because they get there and make some type of cure. The Fireflies took that choice from her... but Joel took that choice from her too when he shoots Marlene. He COULD'VE let her come for her again after talking to Ellie. He executes Marlene. At that point its not just about getting Ellie off the operating table, it's about ending all of this now before Ellie ever gets to know. He then tells her that everything they did and everyone who died, died for nothing. That she's not special. That everyone could've just lived, but they got mixed up with her. They all took away her choice, but it's pretty clear she was going to choose what the Fireflies wanted. Because her life *is* maybe the most important one in human history, and every single person saved by a cure/vaccine/anything across the entire future would be alive because of her.

[@HypeVectorPrime]

I think it's undeniable that Joel is the bad guy. Like, objectively so. Ellie is in the second one as well. They both killed so many innocent people for their own selfish motivations. Druckman and the way the games are structured did a lot to make us as the audience sympathetic towards them, but it doesn't change the raw facts of it. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

[@d03111649]

Greg completely misses the point with his take on Joels' character in the Last of Us. Joel already lost his child, who did not have a choice, watched her die in his arms, and lived alone shut off his connection from people so he wouldn't feel that loss again. Then, by the end of the last of Us has finally opened his heart to that possibility, and he is presented the opportunity to not feel that same loss and hurt. It is a selfish reason for him, but Elle is his world he doesn't care about anyone else.

[@Alex_Logan22]

Understanding and empathizing over why Joel is wrong doesn't change the fact that he was wrong. The debate wasn't about that, they know Joel can't bare the pain again, Greg even said he might kill himself.

[@d03111649]

@Alex_Logan22 You're missing it also. There is no wrong it was not a guarantee that the procedure would procedure a viable cure just a chance. The Fire Flies were not a savior organization they were just as terrible as all of the other organizations and people that you meet. Tommy Joel brother proved you could survive and have town that you didn't need the fireflies or the cure.

[@d03111649]

You can argue that it was wrong to take the choice away from Elle, but even if she sacrificed herself, it may have still not worked and been for nothing.

[@mrchiefbs]

Yes he was

[@randalladkins7452]

Greg is right, though: Life is Strange : Dust Waves Strings Tracks Coming Home Settling Dust 😊

[@JamanWerSonst]

Imagine in Armageddon if Bruce Willis wouldn't have gone to the asteroid so he could be with his daughter, so everyone died. Thats Joel.

[@aarons.2323]

It's more like Bruce Willis' daughter had the power to stop the asteroid, but she would have to be unknowningly killed for that to happen. Bruce's character would've flown that shuttle back lickety split. It's not the same.

[@aoBubs]

I don't think he was "right" but it was a very understandable decision. a lot of parents say they would've done the same thing

[@joelwrightgaming5531]

100% Joel was right. Everybody who loves someone would do the same for them.

[@Jamvaan]

Man that girl Chloes been through enough, not enough she was in the car crash that killed her dad you just found her girlfriend in a plastic bag in a junkyard a few hours before and now Max gets to let her to live with a lot more dead people on her head. Or she dies, everyone lives, the mosters get exposed because Max still knows what Jefferson did, still knows where Rachel Amber is buried, still knows who killed Chloe. Everyone gets closure or everyone dies with questions and trauma, seems pretty black and white to me

[@dv2244]

It's been almost 10 years and I still choose Bae over Bay

[@JROTCBALL]

Anyone feel like they got clickbaited? Came for a last of us discussion n not life of strange spoilers xD

[@SidPhoenix2211]

The first time I experienced both games, I was 14-15. And I watched playthroughs of em cuz I didn't have a console (still dont. But I've managed to play both TLoU games via PS Now, borrowed consoles, and the PC Port of Part I). I was fully on board with Joel saving Ellie. I did NOT want her to die. I saw this morally grey situation, fully saw where all sides were coming from, and I still sided with Joel. Life is Strange tho... The player I was watching chose to save Arcadia Bay, and I agreed. As much as it sucked, I would let Chloe die. The difference, imo, comes down to this: just how much you like a character lol I love Ellie's character. I do not have that same affection for Chloe's character, despite liking her quite a lot. Her story is a pretty sad one and ingot VERY emotional in the Save Arcadia Bay ending. But TLoU intensely focuses on building this one relationship, getting you to care about these two people. You run into other characters, but these two are the CORE of the game. My very first time with the game, I remember thinking, "no vaccine would suck for the world but... Fuck em. Most of it sucks anyway, and little groups like Tommy's place can thrive" Life is Strange, you get to see the town a bit more, you get to see a LOT of these people. So these people don't feel so faceless anymore. And it just didn't feel right letting them die. Plus... We spent the whole game reversing time to save Chloe from dying in multiple ways lol. I think that death just REALLY wanted her, so go right ahead. She can only cheat death for so long lol

[@SidPhoenix2211]

Ellie DID want her journey, her life to mean something. She says in the first game, "it can't be for nothing". But she also didn't know that the procedure would mean that she would die. A very rare bit of dialogue tells us that Joel and Ellie think that the Fireflies are just gonna draw some blood etc. The fireflies never ask Ellie (the girl is dying anyway. Better to have her go in her sleep. If we wake her up and she says no, we'll have to put her down while she's kicking and screaming. It's best this way. It's for the betterment of humanity), but I'm almost certain that she would've said yes. Ellie has survivor's guilt out the wazoo. I think that even Joel recognizes that Ellie prob would've said yes when Marlene confronts him at the end. The fireflies choose for her. Joel acts, saves her, and then lies to her. No one tells her, or asks her. I feel so bad for Ellie. She's really the victim in that scenario. So yes, while Part II expands upon Ellie's feelings in this matter (of wanting her life to matter etc), it doesn't come out of nowhere (like how some folks pretend lol), and it ABSOLUTELY has its roots in Ellie's dialogue and character in the first game.

[@Alex_Logan22]

The ending and Left Behind showed it too. The TV show makes it extra clear that Joel knows, Marlene asks him to let her decide when she lowers her gun. He initially acts to save her but killing Abby's dad and Marlene when they weren't threats were cold/calculated decisions he made against Ellie's own wishes.

[@luvstagrind]

Look I didn't trust those fireflies. How were they gonna distribute this so called "cure"? Are we sure they weren't gonna abuse it for their own gain? The fact they treated Ellie like a package and not a human being pissed me off. At least let her and Joel have some closure so they can say their goodbyes and she could tell joel "It's okay." Screw Marlene and her fireflies

[@Alex_Logan22]

Even if they had done that though, Joel would've acted out in some way cause he was never going to allow that regardless.

[@gearhead417]

So the crazy thing about the ending of TLoU is that it didnt matter. There was never going to be a cure. Anyone who knows anything about Cordyceps knows that you cant cure it in enough time for it not to already kill the host. So even the Fireflies dissecting Ellie would have been basically pointless. It takes months to cure a fungal infection and by that time anyone infected would have already died. So yeah on the surface Joel would seem like the bad guy. But in reality its not because he saved Ellie its because he killed all those people to do it. But than you have to think about how these doctor's should have already known what they were doing was pointless.

[@Alex_Logan22]

Cordyceps can't infect humans either, it's moot point in a fictional world/scenario.

[@MetalHendrix.]

The story gutted Me.

[@TheMarine316]

Joel was right

[@SidPhoenix2211]

Whatever rationalizations people come up with to try and defend Joel (scientific methodology, efficacy of vaccine, "real life science doesn't work like fictional story science about fungus zombies >:(", fireflies' ethics, goals, distribution network etc whatever)... It doesn't matter. Because Joel does what he does for one reason and one reason only: he doesn't want Ellie to die. That's it. That is it. He literally tells Marlene to "find someone else". He doesn't care whoever else they find to sacrifice, so long as it isn't Ellie. (I wrote a longer, more detailed comment. But I guess I used one too many swear words or whatever (not directed at anyone, just trying to enhance my argument) so I think it got auto-deleted by the comment filter bot. So enjoy this shorter comment lol)

[@hoaaaaaaaaable]

Yes you are right and that's why I think he was right. He wasn't going to let his 'daughter' die again. It was selfish but they also don't have get to kill an innocent girl for the chance at a cure that may or may not work.

[@Tcab96]

​@@hoaaaaaaaaable I mean, you say that about an apocalyptic world where a lot of innocent people and girls die unjustly all the time and for a lot less than a chance to save humanity. We watch people get gunned down in the game just to get their body searched for five seconds for supplies they don't have before being discarded. If this one particular girl, even if it's one we care about, has to die for a chance to stop it all and save humanity, then maybe that choice needed to be made. That 'maybe' of the cure working is a lot better than the guaranteed zero chance you have without it.