Was the Red Card to Johnny Russell correctly given?

Andrew Wiebe is back for another edition of Instant Replay as he breaks down the most controversial plays from the weekend.
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[@jared_quackenbush]

That first replay of the Orlando game....WOW, Thats a horrible tackle. How is that not a red card?

[@jacobcriss5624]

[whispers- “because it’s Inter Miami and the league has a massive financial interest in them making the playoffs”] and I’m an Atlanta united guy, far be it from me to defend Disney FC

[@brandons424]

There was also a tactical foul later in the game where a second yellow should have been given to a Miami player. But we all know how that goes 😂

[@NEWCASTLE_SUPREMACY]

@@jacobcriss5624finally someone who knows something

[@t.b.flowers8903]

I agree, ruiz from behind left his feet and wrapped his legs around his opponent's leg... RED

[@jacobcriss5624]

“I was surprised the Miami player wasn’t sent off.” The rest of the league wasn’t, believe me.

[@SteveS4755]

Exactly, anything to get Miami as many points as they can to sneak into playoffs. Gotta generate those revenues by keeping Messi on the field.

[@MainMan425]

This isn’t the first, second, etc etc etc time that Messi FC gets away with it

[@MrCho14]

yawn

[@mr26ss]

False

[@mikedavis9144]

Yup, Messi will ruin this league. You can already see the corruption

[@gregsmart9357]

So you think Benteke's shoulder charge was a foul. Yet, just a few weeks ago, when Messi did the same vs Orlando (arguably worse, since he was 10 yds from the ball, looked at Araujo, then hip checked him), you were willing to give him a pass. Lack of consistency isn't only for the officials...

[@Boys-R-Boys-and-Girls-R-Girls]

It’s Messi though lol. He gets to tell the ref when it’s a foul or not. I’m sure Garber added that into his contract as well. It’s ridiculous

[@Boys-R-Boys-and-Girls-R-Girls]

What he gets away with

[@andrewwiebe9402]

I said that was a foul bud, just not a second yellow. Try to keep up.

[@mr26ss]

I don’t think it was a foul. The defender was too small, and he lost the impact, and really, he went down to easily too in my opinion

[@nashocheese]

Looks like a fair tackle from Benteke to me... Got no problem with a player holding his ground.

[@adzter96]

Miami not getting red cards? There's a shocker, Aviles also should've got a second yellow but didn't. That's 4 reds they should've had in the last 2 matches against Orlando and they got 0.

[@RoadRun92]

💯

[@Boys-R-Boys-and-Girls-R-Girls]

That first Miami tackle was dirty. How is that a yellow only

[@wescocinco4870]

Mora is going for a shot, why is it being debated as a tackle? No foul play just a shot where the defender put his ankle on the wrong side of the ball in that position

[@bryan5213]

Some dirty tackles this week!

[@coky18]

Everyone asking for you to analyze the whitecaps play and you missed everyone's argument. Nobody is saying we thought it was a goal, we're saying AFTER THE SAVE, BLACKMON IS FOULED for a penalty. If you don't believe so, tell us, but don't just say "sorry no goal." That's not why everyone flagged you

[@ricardobortolon5929]

^^^^^

[@nathanc8478]

For the Mora one, does it matter that he got the ball and Gutman kicked the studs of Mora? As far as I can tell Gutman did not get any of the ball and just swung and missed.

[@Jesse-yo1sh]

I also thought the commentary was a little strange. An attacking player put a shot on goal and the defender arrived late. I don't know how that's a red.

[@misternicholas]

Wiebe got that one wrong. Mora got all ball and the studs were in the follow thru.

[@bairdbiz]

2:24 he goes through the ankle to make contact. Also, getting contact on the ball is a factor but not a get-out-of-jail free card on a reckless play.

[@pakkitman]

yeah he's clearly going for the ball as is his right, yellow but nothing more

[@McRizza123]

yeah

[@dv8mr226]

It’s Miami , no red cards ever.

[@RoadRun92]

Miami will forever be protected from fair refereeing as long as Messi is there to bring MLS money and viewers.

[@jomarzan]

i was at the RSL game. during that stoppage time handball review, Vera lifted his jersey to show the ref where it hit him. you could see a large red circle on the left side of his abdomen.

[@chriswhetton3584]

More than that, the shot was off target, which actually matters in this scenario.

[@MrCho14]

@@chriswhetton3584 It would matter for a card, but it wouldn't affect whether it's handling or not.

[@andrewwiebe9402]

@@MrCho14 Ding ding ding ... neither would the deflection. If the ball struck his hand and the hand was in an unnatural position, that's a handball.

[@justi7526]

Can any of you explain how VAR was allowed to even potentially intervene here? The play in question happens, we clear the ball out. Ball comes back and ends up out for a goalkick (if I remember correctly). So that's the first stoppage of play. But the ref doesn't tell MacMath to hold his kick, he in fact blows the final whistle after MacMath takes his kick, meaning the ball was restarted and in the air for a second or two. My understanding was VAR has until the next restart of play to alert the center or not. Once that restart occurs, it's no longer available. I can't find highlights that show the ref actually blowing the final whistle instead of blowing a whistle telling MacMath to hold his kick, but in the stadium I really thought I heard 3 tweets and his arms pointing to signal the end of the game. Maybe I only heard and saw what I was expecting/wanted to see.

[@jomarzan]

@@justi7526 we heard and saw the same. Restart was taken. The ball is in the air. The ref blows his whistle. Players and teams walk out onto the field. The 4th starts waving everyone back off the field. Very confusing

[@rockinmel1]

A lot of refs waving off clear VAR catches this season. Maybe there should be an episode of Extratime devoted to that?

[@Blizard1208]

4:19 bro its kinda hard to get possession when someone grabs you from getting the ball.

[@maayanzilbershtein7146]

In the Whitecaps vs RSL game, you missed the clear penalty shout which wasn't even sent for review on the same play where the ball may have crossed the line. Tristan Blackmon goes for the rebound and Justen Glad clearly takes him down, stopping him from getting to the ball

[@RyMcQ]

I thought that was shoulder to shoulder with two guys going for a loose ball. Blackmon did get bodied into the post, but does that change the contact to a foul? Crazy play.

[@RyMcQ]

Watching again, Glad was lower to the ground so probably not technically shoulder to shoulder, but the two players seemed side by side going for the ball. Neither had possession and they both got there at the same time.

[@swbaxter13]

@@RyMcQ Putting a guy into the post is generally treated similarly to a studs-up challenge - evidence of either intent to injure or disregard for the safety of the other player, and as such an aggravating factor in determining whether a foul occurred. I think the handball is a much clearer PK offence (and I'll be watching for PRO's explanation as to how it wasn't given, because Wiebe's wasn't helpful), but I'm a little surprised this one wasn't reviewed as well.

[@RyMcQ]

@@swbaxter13 My take on the possible handball is that the ball came off his left elbow, which was tucked into his body. From behind the goal, it totally looked like it went off his extended right hand, but in the view from the front, it looks completely different. I can't say for sure that didn't deflect off the right hand after then left elbow. It's amazing how much our brains fill in the uncertainty when we support one team or the other. I completely acknowledge that my own bias might be affecting my interpretation.

[@M10XEditz]

True

[@EvieWillNotDie]

At least get cameras pointing down the goal lines if no glt

[@Cthulhu3C]

Look I know it was a late night but nothing on Austin vs LA? Unkel had an absolute shocker.

[@Corey_Nicholas]

Literally the identical handball pk not given to RSL but costed STL the game vs LA Galaxy

[@phunter-footballmanagermob5665]

You missed the whole thing Vancouver fans were complaining about! Blackmon got fouled during that scenario where the ball was on the line

[@MrCho14]

You missed looking for the discussion lower down in the comments.

[@phunter-footballmanagermob5665]

@@MrCho14Me saying it again just proves the point.

[@gabi3]

this review is so satisfying to watch. this sport can be brutal. like, it's not hard to know who's going to get to the ball first - if it's not you, dont engage and risk injuring a fellow player. reckless and dangerous tackles are so infuriating

[@jacobcriss5624]

“it's not hard to know who's going to get to the ball first” first of all, yes it is. second of all, you think you can tell a coach “I didn’t think I’d get there so I just stood idly by.” You have to get stuck in and take your chances. Tell me you’ve never played without telling me. Nonsense.

[@gabi3]

I play football lmao, that's where I get my thoughts from. I just hate dirty play, like a lot of the tackles featured in this video were. But I do understand that at the pro level taking your chances is necessary@@jacobcriss5624

[@bairdbiz]

@@jacobcriss5624 Agreed, anyone that played soccer knows that it's incredibly hard to gauge that at full speed.

[@mr26ss]

Not really. I genuinely think, that many US players and referees just don’t truly understand the game of “soccer”. Too many of them I have seen, have strong tendency of applying American Football logic in soccer

[@jeffreylytle1563]

Andrew, that was not a deliberate playing of the ball backwards to a teammate... first, the physical contact essentially caused defenders foot to touch ball, there was no deliberate by defender...secondly, the position of offside defender... way to close and already in the supposed passing lane to goalie...

[@josephfrobisher1272]

Soooo when we’ve discussed what is and isn’t a red card for the last 4 weeks… we’ve established on this very show that almost every “orange card” has been a yellow card not a red and what was called on the field has to remain the call. Therefore - since it wasn’t a red card on Johnny Russell initially how can it be a red not a yellow after review? Or for that matter even be recommended for review if it was the severity of a yellow? Not salty Russell was sent off. It is what it is but given the rest of Pensos calls the rest of the game both ways I’m confused where consistency is?

[@AndersMcA]

Both no calls, foul (no card), and yellow cards can all be sent down for review, then upgraded to a red. If the ref gets sent to the monitor after a no call or no card foul, they can choose to go yellow. But a foul (no card) cannot be recommended as a yellow, if that's what you're asking. Russell's foul was sent for review because the VAR deemed it to be a red card offense. The referee agreed, but Penso also could've given a yellow if he wanted to.

[@josephfrobisher1272]

@@AndersMcA This is helpful context on the official allowable uses of VAR. Thank you!

[@mbkincaid1]

does the attacker not touch the ball at all on the final play?

[@kylewilson2819]

No way in hell that's a Red on Mora. He's shooting the ball. He's not out of control, he's not trying to hurt the Colorado defender, he's not even going in for a tackle, he's just doing his job as a forward: Shoot the ball! Weibe is DEAD WRONG! To me, that's not even a foul. Defender was late to challenge and paid the price for being out of position. Come on Weibe, do better.

[@MrCho14]

He appears to have gotten the shot off as well. The defender came into his follow through.

[@ElliottEats]

MLS hands down the most transparent professional sports league in regards to officiating.

[@MrVaDelux]

Boy what. Lol one of the worst in soccer imo. They will probably get better refs next year as messi has made this league legit, i remember last year it was even hard to find mls stats on ESPN for certain players. ESPN is finally taking them serious to

[@ElliottEats]

@@MrVaDelux I am not necessarily talking about quality of officiating, but league transparency when it comes to officiating. They release videos of the refs mic'd up, they have official MLS content (like this video) about good and bad calls - the league publicly critiquing the officiating. Compared to the NFL, or even worse, the MLB - the MLS as an organization is a lot more upfront about the conduct of their referees. In my experience, other leagues don't release as in-depth "mic'd up" content and definitely do not release weekly videos critiquing the calls of the past week. However, just like the quality of play in the MLS, I am sure the quality of refereeing is not the same as larger more established football (soccer) leagues in Europe. I am sure the quality will get better as the league acquires more talent, I just hope they continue to release the referee mic'd up videos from big games and MLS backed videos critiquing officiating, like this one. To me, that is a lot more transparency than we get from other sports leagues.

[@KorbinX]

​@@MrVaDelux"Messi made this league legit" Uhhhh....no.

[@jacobcriss5624]

They’re transparent because they realize the refs are bad. They make a circus of it, it drives engagement. Imagine the premier league putting out a weekly segment where a league spokesperson explains how half the major decisions from the gameweek were wrong.

[@dannyconnors1619]

Rugby

[@caleblino8576]

he was supposed to point at the leg not the ball. because that was ALL leg😂

[@jeffreylytle1563]

that last clip of a deliberate pass...I disagree with... it appears the pressing from behind caused physical contact that caused defenders feet to be pushed into ball... not a clear DELIBERATE playing of ball backward to goalie, especially with where attacker was located in offside position.

[@SteveS4755]

Officiating baffling this week. Start with two tackles that should have seen red, then a red given on a tackle the center didn’t even whistle a foul at all 🤮

[@MrCho14]

VAR finding things the CR missed is pretty much their job. Why would this be any different?

[@fut10oficial]

Salve família primeiro sou fã mano parabéns. Família, trabalho com transmissões do futebol amador em 🇵🇹 Portugal, gostaria de convidar geral à acompanhar o canal, gols, jogos ao vivo, etc. Tmj 🙏⚽️🇧🇷📩

[@heidimark]

Absolutely a DOGSO. If the keeper hadn't touched him he would have gotten to the ball before anyone else and ... you guessed it .. gained control of the ball. Not sure what you're smoking Wiebe.

[@MisonS2]

that was my thought as well, says it's very low that he would gain control of the ball because he initially didn't have control of it.... like Andrew is clearly playinig favoritism there. they call DOGSO on players being held back before gaining control in any other game.

[@Tolberto]

Any doubt means not obvious, there are 3 minor doubts. Defenders in area, direction of ball, not ever in possession.

[@andrewwiebe9402]

The "Mora was trying to shoot, so that excuses the horror tackle" camp is wilddddddddddd

[@thehutch1674]

Well it’s not a tackle, it’s a shot. And he shoots, and Gutman is late to the party. It’s also momentary contact, and Mora pulls out immediately as soon as he possibly can. If Gutman doesn’t kick Mora, then there is no contact with the studs at all. It’s just bad timing, the still shown is very misleading. It also gives the impression that Mora makes contact with Gutman’s plant leg, which is not at all true

[@PinkElephantProduck]

@andrewwiebe9402 are you seriously trying to say that wasn't a shot? Because you said challenge in the video. Mora gets the ball, ball deflects off of gutman, gutman is in front of the follow through of the shot. No challenge involved on Mora's side.

[@ygroling7033]

even if it didnt cross the line, GLAD THREW BLACKMON INTO THE POST! how is that not a pen if not a card/red

[@bairdbiz]

Wiebe gets hate when he posts these but he's better than most of PRO. Probably one of the best when it comes to MLS rules.

[@jacobcriss5624]

I think the problem is that he knows the laws too well, but doesn’t understand how the game is commonly officiated. There’s a difference, as much as PRO wishes there wasn’t. So many of these might *technically* fit red-card descriptions (looking at you, Johnny), but in-game, they should never be given as red cards. It’s a physical, at times violent, game. And we love it that way.

[@bairdbiz]

@@jacobcriss5624 Pragmatically I might agree, but if PRO wants to call it more specifically, they need to get those specifics written into the laws of the game.

[@MrCho14]

MLS Rules? The only 'MLS Rules' are about how to spend made up money and how to make sure owners maximize their profits. On the field, the laws of the game rule.

[@MrCho14]

@@jacobcriss5624 Andrew knows how to read the rules, but he has no real world experience on applying them in a game situation and he takes plays in isolation. The overall game management is just as important as any one call on the field. He's analysis doesn't look at that at all. Not to put words in your mouth, but I think that's part of what you're saying when you say 'but in-game....'

[@andrewwiebe9402]

@@MrCho14 Why don't you just tell me which calls you thought I got wrong and we can debate that? None of know the on-field game management situations as ... we aren't actually on the field. You can watch and guess, but it's still just a guess.

[@bradleyklemetson375]

How do you completely blaze past the inappropriate use of VAR? This is THE ONLY time I’ve seen VAR used after play has resumed in the whole world. No comment? Oh, PRO asked you to not draw attention to it? Got it. Ok, thanks for the clarification. Cough sell out. Oops, excuse me.

[@MrCho14]

I've seen it before. It's always, like this one, where there is a decision to hold up play but the CR doesn't quite whistle before the player puts the ball back in play. The decision was made. It's not a race to beat the VAR decision or CR hold up. Some people are trying to make more of this than is there. The announcers, from what I'm told, didn't help the perception either with their misunderstanding of what happened.

[@spacepants3]

You didn’t cover the penalty given to SKC. I disagree with how the game is currently being refereed. The ball hits Kowalczyk’s arm in what I would argue is a natural position. Ask anyone in the world to turn their upper body around as fast as possible, your trailing forearm naturally rises to 90 degrees from your upper arm. It’s 100% natural. If you actually wanted to use an arm to make yourself unnaturally bigger to block a shot, you would use your leading arm, the one moving forward. The people in charge of officiating at FIFA have gotten into this mindset of “ball hit arm must penalty give” and it is so ASININE. How much longer until pro soccer players voluntarily have their arms amputated?

[@MrCho14]

One big thing that has happened is that VAR makes it more difficult for the CR to let these things go. Without VAR, the CR made a split second decision. Maybe technically it was handling, but it wasn't something which was preferred to be called. Now VAR steps in and there are no excuses for not following the letter of the law (and interpretations) exactly even when the expected/desired call doesn't exactly jive with it. Adjusting the laws has helped, but we haven't been able to get a 100% fool proof wording. And really, this whole 'natural position' used to not be a question. In the 80s/90s, if the ball hit the arm then a handball was called. There were very few reasons to not call it. It was supposed to intentional, but that was fuzzy and it didn't typically come into play. Then we had the 'close distance' and 'deflected'. They've been playing with the wording and interpretation for a long time. There's still work to be done.

[@andrewwiebe9402]

@@MrCho14 Mr Cho is a good referee commenter. This take is spot on IMO, especially regarding the law and interpretation. I didn't review that because to me, when the arm is outstretched like that and stops a shot on target, the expectation is that it will be called and it was. To me not really controversial, so it was cut.

[@MrCho14]

@@andrewwiebe9402 Appreciate the insight here and knowing why you didn't review something. The other issue here is that calls at the youth and lower levels, especially handling, are called as the players/referees traditionally have always called it and what everyone believes to be true. That doesn't always jive with the current laws. Sometimes I refer to this as 'beer league' rules as opposed to the real laws. Yeah, they're close, but in beer leagues there's an expectation of how things are called even if the call isn't completely supported by the book. Not calling it that way would result in the referee having one hell of a time finishing that game with any respect left and potentially him not getting assigned games there again. That leaves a disconnect between people who think they what's right and what is technically right.

[@NoisserPxe]

oof soccer is very dangerous at the professional level

[@Tolberto]

Everyone saying the Mora “shot” is clean is nuts. If Mora actually does get ball first with the speed his foot travels that ball would deflect off Gutman with some pace. It barely moves. To me, Gutman gets his right plant leg between Mora’s wild, definitely out of control, sliding shot and the ball and he goes shin high, studs up, into a luckily unplanted left leg of Gutman. Don’t know why we’re questioning the foul there. The only real debate is yellow or red. I think the flagrant disregard for Gutman’s safety warrants the red.

[@txtoolfan]

Russell didnt think this was a foul LOL stay classy KC

[@RysloFC]

Don't blame him. They think WWE moves are fine because PRO lets them do it.

[@jacobcriss5624]

not a KC fan but he did win the ball. It’s a physical game, some of y’all wouldn’t survive Sunday league.

[@RysloFC]

@@jacobcriss5624 ah yes, the IFAB rule that states as long as the player touches the ball, they can do whatever they want.

[@jacobcriss5624]

the difference between how the law is written and how it is interpreted. “Getting the ball” has always been a measure of the legitimacy of the challenge. It’s not until the past 7-10 years that a challenge like Russell’s would even be considered for punishment. Play on.

[@RysloFC]

@@jacobcriss5624 the laws say nothing about getting the ball first.

[@someutubchannel69]

Yes, it was. He's a DIRTY player. (Russell) He deserved it

[@tobinnkc]

Stats say otherwise. 13 fouls this season, one yellow, one red. That doesn't even get him within the top 300 of the MLS. Your opinion is BS.

[@joeyniederlander1319]

Your calls are BS buddy. Always defending the refs.

[@omays5142]

Waterman red card vs Atlanta ?

[@Tolberto]

Either straight red DOGSO, or second yellow, take your pick. Doesn’t change the game in the slightest. He tugs his arm back and throws him off balance.

[@cedrikpelletier5735]

Yeah that slight touch to the hand « managed » to threw the attacker down. However, Waterman really went close all game to get that second yellow, but this call was garbage

[@MrCho14]

@@Tolberto Interesting thing here is that by giving the straight red, VAR could intervene and recommend a review to downgrade it. If it had been a yellow, even though the player would still be sent off as it was his second, that would not be reviewable by VAR. In the end though, if you believe it was a foul like I do, then it had to be DOGSO and therefore a red.

[@newguyiswinning]

Benteke didnt foul, shoulder to shoulder challenge

[@jacobcriss5624]

NYRB player needs to hit the weights.

[@bairdbiz]

Bro, he takes his eyes off the ball to size up the defender before he plays the defender (and not the ball).

[@jacobcriss5624]

Players shielding the ball will look back to obstruct an oncoming opposition player. How is this different? Surely looking at an opponent doesn’t play into a foul decision.

[@bairdbiz]

@@jacobcriss5624You are correct, the fact that he is not playing the ball is enough by itself.

[@jacobcriss5624]

so a player shielding the ball may not contact another player? There can be no contact, no jostling, to position oneself before challenging for a header? No contact without playing the ball is a crazy interpretation. If the other guy had kept his feet, this would be a non-issue, Benteke shouldn’t be punished for being strong.

[@scotthalpern5631]

i don't think it should be a red card but a yellow card and if he were to do a light challenge yes a sending off again

[@nathanc8478]

Also, what is this, the sixth questionable goal/not-goal this year because MLS does not have goal-line tech? C'mon MLS get with the times, goal-line tech has been around for nearly a decade now.

[@rockinmel1]

There's still been only one that would reasonably be called "questionable", and it's still so rare that getting Hawk-Eye would be throwing away millions for about an edge case a year (we see WAY more dubious game-changing offside calls, and nobody's screaming for the "toenail-is-offside" technology they use in the PL). The one in this video wasn't even contested by the players on the field - they were arguing that there should have been a penalty. It's always funny when people get misdirected by the commentary and their own priorities.

[@Fallenangel92100]

Alright note to self: Stay away from Andrew "thats a red" Wiebes analysis in the future.

[@MrCho14]

He throws the laws up all the time but then his judgement as to how they apply to the particular play is just way off. Luckily, 'his opinion' is not the 'opinion of the referee' (trained and experienced referees). Unfortunately, he's influencing soccer minds with that nonsense.

[@Not-yoursstop]

Are you for real?!?! That Russell foul was not a red at all. And for you to say he could've been seriously hurt is sad... he didn't even get touched lmao

[@jkansas2045]

Russell wasn't a red then your mini shake down league fined him .. MLS is a joke

[@rockytalkndawoods3057]

Soft calls this week. Charmin ultras waiving their flag. 💛💚🌲💚💛

[@Sports314]

Sounds like the standard is that Russell’s should be a yellow

[@MrCho14]

The standard? The laws say red. The laws are the standard that are gone by.

[@Sports314]

Not according to the plays shown prior to his

[@MrCho14]

@@Sports314 Their appeal lost. So, sounds like red is just fine.

[@MrVaDelux]

That johnny russel is beautiful tackling imo. Everyones being to soft. Ive seen WAY WORSE

[@kcsniper1243]

We have all seen worse, but the law is black and white. Does he endanger the safety of the player. Answer Yes. All he had to do was keep his foot straight instead of exposing his studs.

[@jacobcriss5624]

Keeping the foot straight, toe into the ball, risks an ankle injury to Russell. You’re always taught that it’s safer to go into a tackle hard than soft, that’s when you get injured.

[@jeffbryant9380]

Worst red card call in MLS history on Johnny

[@AndersMcA]

Not even close to the worst. Pretty clear send off offense.

[@bradleyklemetson375]

Sorry Weibe but you clearly did not fully understand these plays before reviewing them. This is a week to forget and move on. I’m giving you a big “L” and zero points. Benteke shoulder was clean. Every shoulder to shoulder is focused on the player. Big difference if he did that challenge for his team to win the ball. The shove might be a reason to call a foul but not clear and obvious. There have been way worse shoulder challenges that you said were clean so this is not following your established line of fair challenges. and that last one, we’ll you need to look a lot closer. The forward kicks it into the defenders leg and it deflects to the other ATL forward. Look closer. You missed it. Not a deliberate play on the ball.