Was There Gospel-Centered Theology Before the Reformation?

Ligon Duncan, Gavin Ortlund, and Andy Davis consider whether or not gospel-centered theology existed prior to the Reformation, how the Reformers engaged with theologians who came before them, and how the early church fathers help modern believers grow not just in our faith, but in our understanding of basic Christian doctrines and the tremendous cost it took to defend them.

[@dealaxim]

Excellent talk! Makes me realize how ignorant I was of the facts. There is so much we can learn from that time period, and so many people (like myself) have bought into a common cliche belief that is assumed in almost all our congregations.

[@jimmalloy7279]

Yes, You should read the Church fathers...we all should, but beware, they match up exactly to Catholic Theology on all the main points. Protestantism was absent until 500 years ago..

[@LaFedelaIglesia]

5:58 So... we should not ask the Fathers the 1600's questions? like the doctrine of Justification, the doctrine of the Church, etc., etc.

[@TheRoark]

Yoo, love Gavin Ortlund! Didn’t expect to see him in this video.

[@Jeremy-xs1ej]

Legend

[@jesussaves5841]

Read the book of Acts for the answer to that question.

[@justin.jennifercrittenden5473]

Very good video

[@datchet11]

A lot of Hmmmming going on.

[@matthewpearson7195]

mhm, mhmmmmm, hmmmmmm

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

Mhmm

[@colmwhateveryoulike3240]

@@matthewpearson7195 mmm mm

[@datchet11]

🤣 hmmm hmmm hmmmmmmm

[@sponseredskater]

Are there any

[@kirkjungles4901]

No, the Church has never held that the witness of the Early Fathers was infallible. To say so would either be done out of ignorance, otherwise it is bearing false witness. Lord have mercy.

[@gabrielornellas8313]

They do say that the opinion of the majority of the "fathers" is given by the Holy Ghost, rence its the true doctrine, hence is infalible. So they say that where there is union of the patristic body that is infalibility.

[@1776iscool]

@@gabrielornellas8313 Please give the citation.

[@ryanpope7891]

I was Reformed, but diving into the Fathers made me Catholic

[@hiddetjevanderwaal2827]

Oh okay

[@ocalaballa]

Me too! And thousands of others as well!

[@JJ-il8vf]

Same

[@firingallcylinders2949]

I'm the opposite, I work at a Catholic School and the more I learn about Rome the less I agree with it. I've become more Reformed getting to know Catholicism.

[@ryanpope7891]

@@firingallcylinders2949 Have you read Scott Hahn or Louis Bouyer’s “The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism”?

[@1776iscool]

Could someone explain to me where the early church fathers were in any way protestant? I just honestly want to know. Everytime I hear someone say that the early church fathers agreed with them they can't tell me how. They disagreed on justification by faith alone (Luther agrees with this), there is no proof that they believed in sola scriptura (them using the Bible authoritatively is not sola scriptura), they held a realist position on the Lord's Supper, they believed in baptismal regeneration, the perpetual virginity of Mary and many of them also believed in her immaculate conception.

[@dartheli7400]

Interesting. Can you cite some of the Church Fathers regarding the immaculate conception of Mary?

[@wonyoung8179]

I am reading the Ante-Nicene Fathers now... I can't find the Marian Dogmas there.

[@chris2fur401]

So did the early church look and believe like the Catholic Church?

[@filosofria]

The Catholic Church is the organic development of the the called early Church

[@ryanrogers3610]

The question is as loaded as it is silly... The answer is yes. A better question would have been: how was the term "gospel-centered" hijacked to mean "our particular breed of reformed theology" and Protestant evangelicals just accepted that as fact. It's as if no other theology exists between mine and all the other non-gospel-centered theologies out there. The title suggests an extremely lazy engagement in theological controversy.

[@zachm.6572]

Yes - the Eucharist existed before the Reformation. Unfortunately, the reformers invalidated the Eucharist for their people.

[@melroycorrea7720]

If we needed ecumenical councils in the past to clarify, specify, and emphasize what the Gospel really taught, then how do Protestants think that they can dispense with that mechanism which allow for a valid ecumenical council; mechanisms such as Apostolic Succession that'assure authority to the Bishops, the legitimacy that comes through Papal approval, etc

[@bethr8756]

No coffee mugs or anything??

[@BrandonCorley109]

>be me >understand church history and sola scriptura >read the fathers >read Scripture >become even more reformed

[@nathanw.3187]

Eh

[@shadowstarspammy]

I want to learn more about the early church fathers and history before the reformation, can you point me to good resources or books?

[@javariusjavarlamariuslamar3759]

I did the same and now I’m orthodox

[@jacobrodriguez7771]

I guess the Holy Spirit really failed in guiding Christians on gospel theology for 1,500 years before finally succeeding with Martin Luther. Thanks for coming along and saving us all Martin, really appreciate it.

[@ShoppingBored]

Or from a different perspective, devil found a way to ruin the early church.

[@jacobrodriguez7771]

@@ShoppingBored So Jesus lied ??? Matthew 16:17- And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!

[@CoolioMoDee]

​@@jacobrodriguez7771 Satan didn't prevail though, The Holy Spirit heard the cry of his children and reformed it. Plus, most of your Roman-C teachings are founded in the last few hundred years. So how can any Church Father be Roman Catholic? Not ONE C-Father ever heard of the Rosary... did you know that?

[@jenex5608]

Ofc read Marius Victorinus and John Chrysostom. The witness of Justification by Faith by 3rd to 4th century. Read Anselm of Canterbury.

[@jw8284]

If you want to experience first millennium Christianity, go to an Eastern Orthodox Church: You will find the same liturgy, the same doctrine, the same ethos that existed then. If you don't want first millennium Christianity, visit an Evangelical church: Different liturgy, different doctrine, different ethos. There is only one Church that has stayed true to early Christianity, and that is *NOT* Evangelicalism.

[@jg7923]

It is a sin to call another grown man "father". The Lord Jesus Christ Literally tells us Not To do it in Matthew 23:9.

[@jw8284]

@@jg7923 "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel." --Paul in 1 Corinthians 4:15 (NKJV) This is *precisely* why we need the Church Fathers. Unfortunately, Protestants have a really, really bad habit of pulling verses out of context and using them to support spurious doctrines that were foreign to the church for the first three quarters of her history.

[@jg7923]

@@jw8284 Again, The Lord Jesus Christ Literally tells us to call No Man "father" on the earth in Matthew 23:9.

[@jw8284]

@@jg7923 "But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren." --Jesus in Matthew 23:8 I assume you go to Bible study and call your Bible study leaders "teachers" -- equally sinful according to your logic, especially seeing it comes from the preceding verse.

[@cL-bf2ug]

evangelicals don’t even have a liturgy at all. it’s just dancing and playing music.

[@jacobrodriguez7771]

There was the One True Church founded by Christ before the protestant rebellion, the Catholic Church, which is still here, and always will be. It teaches the truth about everything, join it NOW!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Jesus Christ teaches we must cooperate with God's grace and keep the commandments and repent and bear fruit and forgive others and persevere to the end to be saved. Fallible Protestant Pastors say "not true!". Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@jenex5608]

Jesus never said that

[@annewithane7876]

This is so cringe

[@jg7923]

Calling another grown man "father" when The Lord Jesus Christ Literally tells us not to in Matthew 23:9 Is Cringe.

[@annewithane7876]

@@jg7923 Do you refuse to call your dad "father" as well? Was Paul wrong to call Timothy son? I think it's pretty clear Jesus wasn't speaking literally

[@jg7923]

@@annewithane7876 No Man on the earth.

[@annewithane7876]

@@jg7923 I'm sure your dad is very proud of you 😂

[@freda7961]

Well, he just calls him “Bob” 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@cL-bf2ug]

Prots doing prot things

[@Mygoalwogel]

Papists doing papist things. Nikonites doing Nikonite things. Miaphysites doing Miaphysite things. Assyrian Church of the East is the only one that does Jesus' things.

[@cL-bf2ug]

@@Mygoalwogel Lmao didn’t half of ur church break away and are now in communion with Rome.