Was VEGETA A Super Saiyan 2 BEFORE the Majin Boost?

[@Fppiq]

Short answer: Yes, it was stated that during the 7 year time skip, Vegeta unlocked SSJ2 through training. The Majin boost just unlocked more of Vegeta’s potential and gave him a power boost.

[@Marcus_shawn]

All it did was push him past Gohan and equal Kakarot's

[@Fppiq]

@@Marcus_shawn Yep, and Goku was still holding back during their fight (not fully holding back, just not using SSJ3)

[@TheCanineContrarian]

​@@FppiqNo. During their fight/those volumes in the Manga SSJ3 did not exist as Toriyama never thought of it & as stated in the Manga itself Golu fought to his limit (and still lost) even with his immortal/free energy body.

[@93derekmusic]

@@TheCanineContrarian you understand that whether he thought of it yet or not that if lore is added that’s just that and you have to go with the new lore introduced. Especially if it’s so close to what’s being supposedly retconned

[@nasir3DS]

Yup

[@nicholassiple7838]

I always figured Vegeta had become SSj2 during the 7 year timeskip. Great content

[@damondriver6363]

He clearly hadn't achieved ss2 until the majin curse.. If you watch/read the anime/manga you'd see explain the very moment vegeta realized he couldn't catch up or keep up with goku was when he turned into an ss2 for a split second and killed Yakon from his energy alone. If he had been able to turn ss2 before that point, he wouldn't have been as upset and shocked by it, as the gap wouldn't have been so massive. But it was a massive jump, because vegeta hadn't found a way to become a ss2 yet..

[@thecringekid1929]

I always found it weird how Dragon Ball Z turned into a sci-fi series but we rarely saw any new planets out side of filler. Their earth, namek, the Kai world and yardrat but I think it’s weird how theirs a whole galaxy we never really explored. Like gt has its flaws but it was super cool how we got to see other aliens and civilizations. The manga made contradict this point since I haven’t read it so my b if it does.

[@Dontdoit_]

In the arcs after including the Broly movie they see other planets. The reason for the switch was Toriyama really wanted to make a space drama or something along them lines, could be wrong but I remember seeing something like that. That’s why a lot of his other work is space based. My head canon is that it’s DBEU 😂😂

[@salazarcosplay]

Cell Saga had time travel, cyborgs and cell

[@douglascramer1501]

@@salazarcosplay You Forgot: Parallel World

[@Dontcare_at_all]

Calm down big guy it's a fighting/comedy with different aspects from other genres (sci-fi, westerns, so on...)

[@calebdonaldson8770]

Yeah, a lot of Z's worldbuilding was done during the Saiyan & Frieza arcs. We would get some much-needed worldbuilding during the Other World Tournament, which is part of why I like it so much. GT expanded on this further during the Blackstar Dragonball & Baby arcs. It's one of GT's best aspects that I found heavily lacking in Super.

[@asiatichebrew]

His confidence was very telling. It's very much like when he first became a super saiyan, so yes to him having already unlocked it

[@aeolusedge8575]

Once Vegeta had the confirmation that Goku had also surpassed Super Saiyan, Vegeta says they're both stronger than Gohan right after. In my opinion, that's enough confirmation.

[@pipz420]

Then why did he seek the power of the Majin boost if he was already stronger than Gohan?

[@aeolusedge8575]

@@pipz420 Teen Gohan was the weakest Super Saiyan 2 at that point. He stopped training. Vegeta said he decided to surrender himself to Babidi after seeing Goku's power.

[@pipz420]

@@aeolusedge8575 That makes no sense. He didnt know goku could go ssj2 till after he went majin vegeta.

[@aeolusedge8575]

@@pipz420 please watch or read that section again. Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 when he blew Yakon up. Vegeta says the following: "So Kakarot has also surpassed the Super Saiyan wall" right after he does it.

[@pipz420]

@@aeolusedge8575 just did. That is never said and he does not go ssj2.

[@lordhades598]

I believe Vegeta became a ssj2 during the time skip before the start of the Buu arc and the Majin boost just amplified his power further. So to me Majin Vegeta is kinda like a ssj2.5 or something in terms of power due to the Majin boost unlocking more of Vegeta's potential from digging into his ruthlessness from his past self

[@douglascramer1501]

Vegeta's Majin Form is the same as Goku's Perfected Super Saiyan Form that he used in the Cell Games, only in SSJ2. Ascended Forms were stronger than Super Saiyan Form but weaker than Perfected Super Saiyan. The reason: *1.* Less Energy spent Transforming *2.* Less Energy spent in the Form *3.* Less Stamina used

[@lordhades598]

@@douglascramer1501 it's very possible but we'll never know for sure

[@samsunofthesun]

​@@douglascramer1501 where you get this info seems like b.s to me

[@omegawolfakali589]

​@@douglascramer1501Can you prove that statement about Majin Vegeta?

[@omegawolfakali589]

​@@samsunofthesunHe's right about the ascended forms. He's referring to the forms used by Vegeta (SSJ grade 2) vs Semi-Perfect Cell and Trunks (SSJ grade 3) vs Perfect Cell. SSJ grade 4, used by Goku and Gohan during the Cell Games, is far beyond both of those forms

[@firstdegreesports5120]

I never understood why this was a debate. Why would Vegeta feel confident against Gohan if he wasn't already at least a ss2

[@angel_in-black]

Could’ve been suppressing his jealousy. I mean he’s done nothing but push himself for 7 years, and Gohan is still plenty strong doing next to nothing. Narcissists tend to throw shade at ppl they are deep down afraid of or jealous of.

[@Aquilenne]

It could be that over 7 years, he boosted his base power high enough that he's stronger in ASSJ than Gohan who hadn't been training at all, even in SSJ2.

[@darkinferno1219]

@@angel_in-black you’re right but over time Vegeta has developed a respect for Gohan and his power. It’s been a while since I read the manga/watched the sub but it was pretty apparent that Vegeta was frustrated that Gohan had gotten weaker/remained stagnant fighting against a Dabura that was relative to a guy (Perfect Cell) he basically beat in 2 hits as a pre teen.

[@firstdegreesports5120]

@@Aquilenne for the buu saga that logic really doesn't add up.

[@firstdegreesports5120]

@angelinblack1831 Vegeta has never really been the type to be delusional about his power when he recognizes a stronger being. Against Freiza he hadn't seen a super saiyan so he assumed he was one other than that he keeps it pretty real with himself when he has to surpass somebody

[@cslack813]

Vegeta would not have rested until he achieved and surpassed the strength of peak ssj2 gohan he witnessed. His statement is one of confidence in his own strength. Unfortunately the later retcon of ssj3 gives vegeta the L again…

[@douglascramer1501]

I like to look at SSJ3 as the new Kaioken. Goku can transcend his limits, but he will quickly burn himself out. SSJ3 is only a 4x boost, while Kaioken goes up to 20x, so it is a cheap replacement. Vegeta's Suicide Move, using all his life force, might be just as strong as SSJ3. We have seen from the very first season that the Z fighters know how to increase their power level by concentration and consolidation, particularly in the Raditz fight. So for Vegeta to Double or even Quadruple his normal MAX, by sacrificing his life force, would not be surprising.

[@ExtraVictory]

@@douglascramer1501 no because Vegeta failed to kill buu with the suicide blast wheras Goku was stated to be able to kill buu with SS3

[@bobjohnson1633]

There is no reason to believe that ssj3 would beat buu. You have to completely disintegrate him. Needed a spirit bomb to do it.

[@UFunnyLowe]

Vegeta’s a fighting genius himself so unlocking ssj2 after witnessing gohan unlock it would’ve been a breeze for him and goku to unlock it

[@SuperHns]

but Gohan's power was still different, Gohan didn't use 100% of his true power against Cell

[@douglascramer1501]

@@SuperHns Gohan had just tapped into the form of SSJ2, but that was his FULL power. Gohan has really high potential, due to his latent Saiyan Biology. He is the only child of the Surviving Saiyans that was born with a tail, that we know of. The only half-blooded Saiyan that could turn into the Ozaru Form. So he hit the Genetic Lottery. As his biology develops, and his power as well, his potential will naturally rise. Gohan doesn't get a Zenkai Boost, when he is defeated, so his biology might adapt in a different way.

[@jaxsetbertoncarlism8873]

@@douglascramer1501 gohan doesn't get a zenkai boost? Where's that given?

[@aceclover758]

Gohan gained zenkai boost throughout Namek just like Goku and Vegeta did

[@douglascramer1501]

@@jaxsetbertoncarlism8873 Saiyan Saga, where Gohan was beaten by Piccolo. The Frieza Saga, where Gohan is beaten by the Ginyu Force. The Android Saga, where Gohan was beaten repeatedly in the Future by the Androids. The only significant increase in power that we see with Gohan are: 1. Ozaru Form (Moon) 2. Potential Unlock (Guru) 3. Super Saiyan Form (Emotions) 4. SSJ2 Form (Emotions) 5. Elder Kai Unlocked Potential (Gods) Goku gets beaten up by the Ginyu Force / Vegeta, then gets a power boost to fight with Frieza. Gohan was beaten like a dog by Recoome, but he gained nothing...

[@cinemamadness6920]

King Kai said that 1 year of training with him was like 100 years of time. Considering how close in power Vegeta was with Goku during the Buu saga, even taking into account Goku was far stronger when he died, that's REALLY impressive

[@omariwalker1006]

The Buu saga made Super Saiyan transformations less significant. Like anyone who has Saiyan blood could just change now, not like the struggle it was before

[@ssppeeaarr]

it started way back in android saga - cell saga tho. but ya by buu saga it feel play'd out. sad. but i did like seeing ss3 tho. then they gave it to gotenks too. oh well.

[@dragondudex4013]

@@ssppeeaarr Gotenks is a magical being made up of two energies so unlocking SSJ3 from a fused magical being with access to two life forms whom with great potential isn't so far out of the realm. SSJ3 in general was accessed through outside forces so the SSJ3 form itself still holds it's credibility

[@ssppeeaarr]

@@dragondudex4013 ya that could make sense of it. still tho these were just saiyan kids. who never really train. got their ss forms purely cause their dads brutal combat history and hard work!! 👎😕 gotenks didnt deserve it. i think vegeta said it best during this arc. its a super saiyan bargain sale. lmaoo. fr tho. as for SS3 it was epic and i feel goku was the only one worthy of that form. being he trained 7 years for it. dont know what kinda hell he went thru. in bringing out that power. it was unique to goku and felt like a proper send off being he was the first ss in the series anyway. only right he have the final form of it. and only him... i liked seeing gotenks ss3 tho. but for me it cheapn'd the value of gokus ss3. it also was the final ss form in the dbz canon. so it held that iconic title as well. i think thats a reason why many ppl still have love for the form. in spite of gt n ss4.

[@hunterhudson4577]

​@@ssppeeaarrI don't understand why Toriama didn't think of Vegito using ss3. Even more so why he bothered thinking of Vegito when Gogeta woulda made more sense considering Goku already knew the fusion dance.

[@ssppeeaarr]

@@hunterhudson4577 ya man i think gogeta would have made more sense. but i think the movie came out before and tori didnt wanna make it canon at the time. or something. so he came up with another fusion... i always wondered why goku never bother to try metamoran fusion during this arc. and ss3 in fusion with goku and vegeta would be OP is prob why they didnt go there... even base was enough to handle super buu with his absorbs. vegetto going ss was just showing off. lol. like he said he only needs his foot to defeat buu.

[@antx8563]

I agree you broke it down very well. They should show Vegeta reaching SS2 in Super or a movie. I think that would be really cool

[@GoldenQuickie]

I believe vegta already had the power of ss2 before the majin control. Vegeta mentions during his fight with Goku that he (Vegeta) allowed babidi to turn him back into his ruthless self. And its within reason to assume that Vegeta equated his ruthlessness as the key to unlocking his TRUE TRUE potential. meaning he knew he could access ss2 power but he was just holding back. babidis magic basically allowed Vegeta to remove that mental block that was preventing him from being a killer. Which is when he was at his strongest. i mean think back to when Vegeta first landed on Earth. Vegeta couldn't alter his power level he was just base level strong with a power level of 18,000. But over time, vegeta not only learned to suppress his power on Namek, but became soft when he got involved with the earthlings. Which could have altered Vegeta ability to maintain that ferocity which allowed him to always be at his strongest.

[@hunterhudson4577]

You coulda also brought up how Super retconned how Vegeta thinks too much which causes him to hold back unintentionally.

[@dstr001]

Id definitely say yes, theres no way someone who trains as hard as Vegeta does wouldnt unlock it in 7 years. Vegeta only decided to go the desperate route of the majin powerup when he felt Goku tap into ssj3 (not ssj2, his hair goes way up and back in the single frame where he uses his ki) against Yakkon, before that he was pretty confident he was at least on par with Goku. He didnt know just how much stronger Goku was, but he at least knew in that moment that his power wasnt enough.

[@anthonyt425]

But how weak was Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta that he needed a massive power up just to match Goku? Seems pretty low for a 7 year gap.

[@Est_1.997]

He implies very heavily that he has attained that level of power had the tournament played out normally we may have seen it 1st without Majin in the finals

[@briancamargo4492]

Is this even a debate? Obviously he had SS2, if he hadn't his inner monologue would have been a lot different and would have definitely started with "curse you kakarott!" 😂Anyway great content man, keep it up!

[@mickey2ky]

The fact you have a yuyu poster has earned my viewing and I realize now you’re on point. Lol dude thanks for the content. I’m gonna catch up on your past videos all along. Awesome!

[@imjustadog1897]

When it comes to saiyans, a power boost doesn't lead to a transformation. A transformation leads to a power boost. Just getting boosts for transformations didn't work on namek and wouldn't work with babidi. Vegeta definitely knew how to go ss2 without the majin boost. Look at how easily he pulled it off. Vegeta knew deep down that Goku(dead or alive) would keep pushing himself until he reached ss2 or higher. That's why he continued to train despite swearing not to fight again. Gohan pulled off ss2 twice in one day. 7 years later he still knew how to do it without intense training. Seeing how fast Trunks and Goten reached super saiyan, Vegeta would definitely have ss2 in his back pocket and have some mastery over the form to remain confident.

[@primetimetv8452]

Vegeta also used SSJ2 against kid buu. There’s nothing that says a character still has the boost after losing the M on their forehead.

[@alexander1055]

It's DragonBall, the Characters never get weaker.

[@StandXGamma]

​@@alexander1055 Yeah, they do, gohan got weaker from not training after the cell arc. He got weaker again in super and lost his "ultimate form"

[@CoryJonesMusic]

The Dragon Ball series has so much untapped potential it’s literally endless

[@bitterthenu7278]

I have no idea where this idea ever came from, its just completely made up with no basis lol. The majin boost gave vegeta enough power to catch up to goku but it wasn't like a massive increase like 2x or something. In the original manga if you are a little faster and stronger its enough to dominate your opponent like vegeta vs zarbon for example. Vegeta probably got like a 1.2x boost, which is definitely significant as if you are even a hair slower than your opponent and they are skilled it means they can dodge all of your attacks and overwhelm you.

[@marvelsandals4228]

One thing to note tho is Vegeta's reasoning for why he let Babidi control him. He said he noticed how Spopovich, a regular guy with no special superhuman powers in the last tournament had received a relatively massive boost, so much so that the audience couldn't believe it was the same guy. I wonder how much of a multiplier Babidi's control gave him? I suppose there's no hard evidence that everyone gets the same base multiplier when Babidi prints the M on their forehead, but if so that would be CRAZY on a Super Saiyan or SS2

[@bitterthenu7278]

@marvelsandals4228 Babidi says that he brings out their latent abilities. Spopovich was just a dork so he had a lot of potential to bring out since he never worked very hard to achieve it. Alos based off his appearance change he probably got more buffs from babidi. Vegeta never stops training to absolutely maximize his power and it has never been said or hinted that Vegeta has a hidden potential. Just that he is a prodigy figther, so Babidi didn't have that much more latent power to bring out of him due to vegeta training to use his latent power himself.

[@matijaknezevic4184]

Mike always coming in clutch with these videos

[@Alienldr]

Most of us think he gained ssj2 during the 7 year time skip. The only thing that bothers me is when people say there's "undeniable proof" one way or the other. I'm like "No, all evidence saying he did or didn't have it is circumstantial. It's left ambiguous, so 10 years from now Toriyama could say he didn't achieve ssj2 until he became Majin Vegeta, and it would still work. There could be an over 90% chance he did achieve ssj2 during the time skip, but so far there is no evidence that will bump that up to 100%, or drop it down to 0.

[@SRVaris]

I mean the Daizenshuu just outright says Vegeta unlocked it through training so yah there is pretty undeniable proof

[@Kenjitsuka]

Carefully reading the original manga I've never understood people who claim he didn't have it yet. With SO many mentions of his relative level!

[@SouSporting]

Vegeta always seems confident he can take people on and then gets his shit pushed in, that happens everytime even in the non canon movies. Vegeta believed he'd defeat Zarbon easily and got rekt, he believed he'd defeat Frieza and DIED, he believed he'd defeat Goku and then got rekt, Broly rekt him far worse than anybody else because Vegeta didn't even wanna fight, bro that's some really deep frightning territory when Vegeta the King of smug is afraid. Moving forward he got rekt by 18 and Cell. Goku came out of the Time Chamber and told him you're dumb for ruinning your body like that and he also said i'm way ahead of you. Which Vegeta notes as Goku and Gohan were able to maintain SS1 without spending energy. So you want me to believe that guy in 7 years with nothing but gravity training closed the gap on Gohan and Goku who are naturaly better talents than him, a Goku who actually stayed training for those 7 years aswell on even better conditions? That's riddiculous. He'd never catch up to Goku and it is later confirmed he didn't. And he sure as hell did not catch up to Gohan. Gohan might have been NERFED yes but Gohan's potential also increased during those 7 years and he grows as a life form. When Elder Kai unlocked Gohan's potential Gohan went above Goku yet again meaning whatever power Gohan had when he beat Cell grew into more than what Goku achieved and Goku is ahead of Vegeta here. So obviously Gohan goes miles ahead of VEgeta or rather he keeps the millage he has always had on Vegeta. The only time Vegeta surpasses Gohan is the entirety of Super.

[@HistoryandReviews]

WRONG! Vegeta NEVER lost to Goku

[@macklinbrown1742]

Damn man. I have been devouring your manga centric tour de force lectures recently. Felt like you were doing a mathematical proof professor. Keep it up!

[@RealTalkOrWalk]

Man as I’ve said multiple times lately, I’m loving your new content & you’ve been consistently killing it. You’ve made a few videos on Buu lately but one thing I’ve always wondered is how strong was Evil Buu/Skinny Buu? You explained Super Buu’s power & went into how he was able to get so strong after Evil Buu ate/absorbed Fat Buu but I always thought Fat Buu retained the same level of strength & just created an entirely separate entity with strength beyond what the initial Fat Buu already had, instead of the energy being split. Mainly I always thought that was the case because of how long he was able to hold off Kid Buu. If he only retained 40% of his initial power, I feel like he would’ve been instantly stomped by Kid Buu, even with his durability & regeneration, plus the insane strength of Super Buu would add to that theory. But even so how strong would Skinny Buu be? I’ve always wondered, if Super Buu turned back into Skinny Buu after they ripped Fat Buu out of him, how would Goku & Vegeta do against him?

[@HistoryandReviews]

Weak. End of story

[@bmb-ub6ec]

Is it really that difficult to believe that Vegeta could just raise his power to a level of super saiyan 2 Gohan in just super saiyan in 7 years? I feel like they do this all the time and no one questions any of the other stuff that Goku does in only Super Saiyan. I really do think Toriyama would have wrote the story differently if he intended Vegeta to be a super saiyan 2 prior to being Majin Vegeta. I feel like people don't give Babidi enough credit but he was able to make regular people as strong as they were in the saiyan saga. Which has to at least be by 10x if not greater. Also keep in mind at this point Super Saiyan 2 was just thought of as a stronger variant of super saiyan, super saiyan grade 5 and not a unique transformation. I think that's why it's kept ambiguous. I really don't think Toriyama knew what he wanted to do with it.

[@jerrelscott418]

Vegeta could go ssj 2 but the problem was he knew his ssj2 was weaker than goku’s after the fight he had with babadi’s monster

[@welshlout3400]

It would be a weird property of Babidi’s magic if it could target those physiological elements specific to Saiyans that unlock their transformations. I just don’t think the magic is that ‘smart’. It is however quite believable that it could close the difference that had developed between Goku and Vegeta’s base power levels.

[@tomr6866]

It's idiotic to even debate this. He regarded Gohan as an utter weakling - even though he knew adult Gohan had SSJ2

[@tomr6866]

When Gohan fought dabura btw

[@RheemQ]

Exactly. And even when they fought Super Buu before they fused you could see the lighting on his aura when he was using ki blasts. The fact that debate this tells me they never watched this show and only read the Manga.

[@gangstagummybear3432]

When did he do that? He said picollo and krillen were weaklings, nothing about Gohan

[@tomr6866]

@@gangstagummybear3432 while gohan was fighting dabura

[@tomr6866]

And after the fight

[@neo84401]

I love gohan's green and black suit.

[@Sinncere06]

I always thought Vegeta was trying to mask his conscience and guilt by letting babidi put the spell on him. He might have gotten a boost but he didn’t need it to go SSJ2.

[@blaketindle4703]

When Gohan went ssj2 in front of Kibito Vegeta obviously believes he’s much more powerful than him now. That wouldn’t be possible if Vegeta hadn’t already achieved ssj2 himself. This is further emphasized during Gohan’s fight against Dabura. I think Vegeta clearly was about equal in power if not perhaps a bit stronger than Gohan was against Cell, but needed the Majin boost to match Goku’s ssj2 power.

[@Vicioussensai]

Anyone confused about this is in denial lol 7 years straight training. no way vegeta didn’t get ss2 😂

[@nightshadebrown7593]

He was a super saiyian 2 already. He was confident. That he was able to beat Gohan. He said you was alot stronger. When we fought cell. But I've been training. He decided to let babidi charm him. When he seen how. Powerful goku got. When he saw goku. Fighting yakon. He knew he couldn't beat goku.Thats why he was charmed by badadi. To keep up with goku. But goku fought him evenly. Because he was already. A super saiyain 3. And hid it from him. Because he knew. About vegetas pride. And he didn't. Want to hurt him.

[@jrkb89]

Never stop uploading

[@picassojulien899]

I believe vegeta definitely was a super saiyan 2 before majin. Babadis magic just amplifies strength, it doesn’t give transformations.

[@anthonyt425]

Bingo! Not to mention he doesn’t seem too surprised that Goku can go SS2 as well.

[@oreomixtape7061]

In Raging Blast 2, I used to put Vegeta Ssj2 vs majin Vegeta and let the cpus brawl it out. Ssj2 must’ve been post resurrection cuz he caught more dubs lol

[@jooka2010]

Loving the content lately bro. Can tell you've got the mojo back

[@ryanlukz3261]

Here’s a very good question laughingstock media do you think Goku was already strong enough to handle super Saiyan two but simply did not know how to unlock it or was he not strong enough to grasp the form and obtain it

[@vantablackecho]

Yeah, this is a great one, especially considering he went into the other grades of SSJ and Gohan had mentioned at one point in the Time Chamber that Goku had stopped training and was instead sitting and pondering ascension

[@imjustadog1897]

Goku saw a glimpse of Gohan's true power or at least felt the difference at one point during their training. He would've definitely tried to reach the same level before leaving the chamber. He likely wasn't strong enough to wield the power, but was on the right track.

[@gogettothelegendaryfusion2204]

Goku simply could not tingle his back hard enough to achieve SSJ2. Just kidding. My explanation for it though is that Goku either was just not pushed hard enough or didn't push himself hard enough to get SSJ2. Once he saw Gohan ascend, he didn't feel the need to push himself. He thought that Gohan would be able to stop Cell, so there was no need for him to try so hard to get the form.

[@gottenjet]

You make a good point and it’s quite convincing. The only question I have left is if Vegeta was a súper sayian 2 stronger than teen gohan, then why didn’t Babidi’s magic propel Vegeta to Super Sayian 3?

[@douglascramer1501]

Vegeta's Majin Form is the same as Goku's Perfected Super Saiyan Form that he used in the Cell Games, only in SSJ2. Ascended Forms were stronger than Super Saiyan Form but weaker than Perfected Super Saiyan. The reason: *1.* Less Energy spent Transforming *2.* Less Energy spent in the Form *3.* Less Stamina used *LORE:* From the Cell Games. Perfect Cell was stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, but was even with a Perfected Super Saiyan Form. This is why Goku wouldn't use SSJ3, besides his time on the Mortal plane being shortened.

[@PowerRobMusic]

Yes, before watching this, that's the answer. It's why he looked down upon Gohan and mentioned Goku "broke through the Super Saiyan Barrier as well" nonchalantly

[@abombinable5nake]

Bro you pumping out the content. Keep up the good work!

[@arnoldjara3549]

He definitely had it but the majin boost just closed in on the power difference. He was confident he'd STOMP the Gohan that beat Cell.

[@gangstagummybear3432]

When was that?

[@Jociaoftrades]

What about Gohan getting the Majin Boost. Wonder what that would of done for him if it was possible to get him. It would definitely make him accessing his rage a little easier.

[@HistoryandReviews]

Never happened never will, neeext

[@denkerbosu3551]

​@@HistoryandReviewsnext what? Next stupid comment? Have you ever heard of how people with low IQs can't work in hypotheticals?

[@TheStiff47]

You’re on a fuckin’ roll dude…KEEP IT UP🔥🔥🔥

[@ExtraVictory]

The key line is "who knows what will happen when he gets mad" lmfao. We already know that if Gohan gets put in a certain situation he will always exceed everyone else, like we saw with SS2 and Beast Gohan

[@TheXimena711]

Yes, but still going to be a great video

[@angel_in-black]

Personally, I like to think that he wasn’t! It just makes more sense to me that he’d give in to the Majin transformation if it meant shattering a barrier that he was unable to on his own for years. You can tell me I’m wrong, but I think the story is better with Vegeta deflecting by telling Gohan he’s gotten weak when really he’s jealous he’s still so strong while he has to push himself to keep up his strength and he still hasn’t been able to accomplish what he did as a kid. And when he yells at Gohan for not beating Dabura, he knows Gohan could’ve if he acted more like him, ruthless and angry. Of course he’d give into “mind control” if it meant him getting stronger than the two fighters he’s been unable to keep up with.

[@SouSporting]

this right here. Vegeta was angry the whole Saga up until he dies and notices that even after what he did he was still behind. That's where he accepts that fact.

[@bryanc7094]

Strongly Agree

[@Coolguy-or8ex]

Facts don't care about your feelings

[@SirJoelsuf1]

Vegeta was ssj2 before everyone else. Just didn't know how to balance things out and like Goku's ssj3, when Vegeta turned ssj2 it put a strain on his overall life force. Goku and Trunks weren't able to balance out what ssj2 gave, but it DIDN'T put a strain on their overall life force. This is explicitly stated in the manga. The only reason Vegeta got the majin "boost" at all (and it really wasn't a boost, all things considered) was to get him to go back to the way he was before he joined the Z Fighters. I don't understand how NO ONE gets this when it is CLEARLY stated in the manga...several times.

[@infinitesheldon5710]

I don't know what translation of the manga, you're reading, but it sounds like you're referring to Super Saiyan Grade 2 and Grade 3, not Super Saiyan 2 (aka Grade 5). Vegeta's power up against Semi-Perfect Cell wasn't Super Saiyan 2. It was just a beefed up version of the normal Super Saiyan. Gohan was the first character to actually use Super Saiyan 2, during his fight against Perfect Cell.

[@TheLonelyProphet]

when you think about it this is actually presented and set up really well. people forget Vegeta isn't Goku he boast and brags yes but he never reveals his full hand to his opponents. It would make sense Vegeta would imply Hes stronger than Gohan without giving away his surprise of obtaining SSJ2. I imagine he wanted to reveal it Goku during their fight too kinda throw him off kinda like a jealous friend who cant wait to show you hes gotten some new toys 🤣

[@marvelsandals4228]

"See Kakarrot I'm finally stronger than yo-" (Goku goes Super Saiyan 3) (Vegeta cries)

[@mikemeyer3530]

Mike! Love the content recently! I really enjoy your approach to these topics. Question...and I ask because I think you're the right guy for the job, but, could you do a reexamination of SSj4?? I love SSj4 and I'd say most of us do. I remember watching the recent Dragon Ball movies in theaters in 2013, 2015, 2019, and a lot of Dragon Ball KZbinrs talk about how, "SSjG would SLAP SSj4, bro. It's god ki, you can't compete!" And, I feel like that just isn't accurate anymore. I'm not talking about power scaling or anything along those lines, but I refuse to believe that these two kids WITHOUT god ki (Kale and Calulifla) can fuse together and then give SSjG Goku a run for his money. Not only that, Jiren, Broly, Golden/Black Frieza don't have god ki, and yet they can do as much damage as they do?? Like I said, love the content. I'd just love to see SSj4 get an updated look.

[@CJ-111]

You’re on a roll with these debunking videos

[@locdogg86]

Watching this as a kid in the fifth grade it was obvious vegeta had ssj2. I don’t know how people get confused about this.

[@MetaITurtle]

I think Vegeta knew how to become an SS2 and he probably DID become one while training to push himself. But was he an experienced SS2? No. I think that's all it was. Vegeta probably didn't have anyone to test it on so he never used it again. Until Goku appeared.

[@gene081976]

Yes, Vegeta claimed he was stronger than Gohan even. He went Majin because he saw a glimpse of Goku’s power and felt it was higher what he achieved (he likely saw a glimpse of SSJ3), that no matter how hard he trained Goku was still ahead. He let himself became Majin to get the boost to close that gap. Also wasn’t Vegeta able to go SSJ2 when he came back for the day?

[@TerryB01]

What if Goku did go Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta? How would that have effected the series?

[@d.6786]

Assuming Majin Buu still gets revived, my guess would probably be not much. Goku made it clear he could’ve beat Buu when they first fought, but decided not to so that Trunks and Goten could. Otherwise who knows

[@Marcus_shawn]

His time would disappear

[@freetime2freeminds]

We get the Janemba arc 😎

[@TerryB01]

@@Marcus_shawn Not all at once. He would have on-shotted Vegeta and then have an hour left to do... something with.

[@bolobagginz3240]

Vegeta was on Gohan ass the whole arc 😆🤣😂

[@TheHuskyGT]

Not to mention, in later DBZ games (Tenkaichi series), "End" vegeta or "Buu Saga" Vegeta has the Super Saiyan 2 transformation, separate from his Majin boost. And those games were known for being very accurate, lore wise. Vegeta said it himself. He let himself be controlled by Babidi to be who he used to be. Evil, ruthless and to fight with nothing holding him back. Vegeta had clearly obtained SS2 prior through training. The Majin boost only gave him that little extra edge to be able to beat Goku, who had most likely achieved a higher level in his SS2 form.

[@khumokwezimashapa2245]

If people disagree. Then we'll have to ask the creator himself Akira: I forgot lol FUCK!!

[@thesmockinggunYT]

Because vegeta has never underestimated his opponent. 😂😂😂

[@KoolKatBeatz]

in a way he pulled an elder guru move....for vegeta

[@longlivetheblackmamba2-8-24]

I remember Geekdom doing this video a few years ago. To put it bluntly yes

[@trisxart2393]

It's like everytime I get done arguing with someone in the comments the exact video that I'm arguing about comes out 😂

[@geomejia8946]

i wish they had ended off with a little more ssj2 Gohan before the time skip…like it feels gohan went from getting kidnapped to bowl cut namek to long hair androids then comes out the time chamber a different kid so calm and quiet then ssj2 and then a time skip…completely skipping his teens years…i feel like they should definitely do something showing off how great ssj2 gohan was🥹 (atleast BT4 a What If)

[@nobafan7515]

I think the best argument against vegeta being ssj2 before babidi is his hair doesn't change much.

[@Jakehatred666]

To me, the Majin boost was more of a mental state power up rather than a literal one. Like he says he wanted to be evil again, so Im guessing the Majin boost simply reawakened his dormant inner evil or at least his deep seated rage he had been locking away ever since Goku died. It allowed him to break the shackles of family and love and replace that void with anger and hatred again.

[@PCtowski]

I always had the impression that Vegeta was bluffing

[@sonic92889]

I believe that Vegeta did unlock ssj2 on his on by training. It was just the fact that after he saw Goku's ssj2 form had more power than his own so Vegeta decided to have babadi brainwash him to even the gap. Goku's ssj2 was more powerful than Vegeta's ssj2 because of unlocking ssj3 which could make Goku's his ssj2 form be at a level like ssj2.5

[@thedevilsleutice]

Vegeta seemed very confident in killing Dabura.

[@devilshooter126m8]

Great video yea he had SSJ 2, no reason he didn't.

[@maniau]

-"I'm going to end this quickly at full power" proceeds to super sayan 3, Vegeta gets KO'ed.

[@marinomele4575]

Here's how I'd pinpoint the scale. 1. Kid Gohan SS2(rage) is 2x Super Perfect Cell, since half his ki was enough. 2. Teen Gohan SS2(calm) is on-par with Dabura - therefore Super Perfect Cell. 3. Daizenshuu2 says "Gohan didn't get weaker during the 7y timeskip" 4. Vegeta SS2(not-majin) is unsure if he could beat Teen Gohan SS2 - if enraged. 5. Gohan has slakced off and can't draw his old powers. "Lost the rage-boost". 6. Kid Gohan SS2 = Teen Gohan SS2 = SP Cell = Dabura. 7. Vegeta's close to Kid Gohan's level, making him 2x Teen Gohan. 8. Goku is stronger than Kid Gohan, but so much to shock Vegeta. 9. Babidi's magic-amp on Majin Vegeta should be around a 50% boost. (As 2x would mean Vegeta's SS2 was equal to Goku's SS1) 10. Dabra/Cell/Teen Gohan >x2> KidGohan(rage)/Vegeta >+50%> Goku/Majin-Vegeta.

[@tim6454]

I always though the reason he became Majin was to become one.

[@marcusfrazier4923]

He did, but it was nowhere near Goku's potential.....and he knew it when Goku used that burst to kill Yakon.....that's why he wanted Babidi's magic..

[@shivendra3019]

Geekdom also made a clear explanation video on Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta and now Mike. WITHOUT Goku using Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta not using Majin Vegeta form, who would have won the fight in the Buu Saga with just their Super Saiyan 2s?

[@GeteMachine]

The anime, especially the dub does not make it clear at all but the manga implies it more to me. Yes. Its the only way it would make sense for his attitude. He couldn't criticize Gohan or think he could easily beat Dabura if he wasnt. I think its just that he didnt think Goku also was a SS2 (similar to how he assumed he surpassed Goku in the ROST before Goku even went in) or that he knew Goku's was stronger than his (which would retroactively make sense knowing he has SS3 which in my headcanon should make Goku's SS2 max potential higher than Vegeta's.) so Vegeta needed Banidi to just raise his SS2's potential or strength up to Goku's. Then they were even.

[@Schwartzbruder1]

I always thought it was a given that rhey both achieved SSj2 in the timeskip. Dragon ball had always followed the pattern of the previous levels becoming fodder once the new badguys show up. Gohan unlocking SSJ2 showed that it was possible so all the others had to do was to put in the time to reach it. The same thing happened with Vegeta and gohan getting SSJ1 off screen(manga) and even the Z fighters going from Radditz' tail fodder to being able to take out multiple radditz's after receiving the training from Kami that Goku had gotten previously.

[@bamaboyburns8079]

When gohan was fighting Dabura his confidence was mighty high at the time I do believe he was there already he wasn’t impressed with gohan or dabura at the time

[@gangstagummybear3432]

His confidence was also high when he saw Goku and Cell fight

[@justmike7994]

Really like ur videos one nit pick i have is can u swallow ur saliva less closer to the mic. Its like drinking liquids close to the mic. Glad ur back either way.

[@snorlax6691]

Always felt he made SSJ2 during the time skip, and the Majin boost essentially forced him into that form. Budokai 3 kinda treated it that way, if you use the capsule for the Majin form, his techniques change, and the form feels like regular SSJ2 Vegeta with different, slightly more powerful moves. He also doesn’t reverse the transformation, nor can he take any other form with that capsule. I feel like the Majin boost just essentially floors the gas on his power output and makes him go full force constantly.

[@MrKevin486]

Of course Vegeta was a Super Saiyan too, he transformed way back against the Antdriods. 😊

[@protosonic17]

Considering in the games it always lists majin as a seperate form than 2 and is usually after 2 its seperate.

[@Ace_of_Horns]

Off topic, but seeing vegetas bare feet for the first time, in that manga panel was slightly unsettling.

[@NamPham-jk5zc]

All the evidence supporting Vegeta could achieve SS2 prior is circumstantial and I feel like Vegeta stans are inferring heavily from simple comments. SS2 is a strength multiplier and it was evident to anybody who can sense power levels that Gohan’s base level had drastically decreased compared to when he was a teen. Just because he can go SS2 and Vegeta is still confident doesn’t mean much, considering we’ve seen actual examples from the manga and movies where Vegeta can reach peaks of a form on par with higher levels (ascended SSJ vs Cell, SS2 able to fight Beerus while SS3 Goku got flicked, or maxing out SSB). And in terms of his smack talking Dabura, he has always been overconfident and never met an opponent he didn’t think he could beat. He was also baiting Babidi to recruit him so acting agitated and boastful was all too enticing. So while I do think he was on par with SS2 (probably weaker than teen Gohan-who was honestly way stronger than Revived Cell, he handicapped himself saving Vegeta), there is just no evidence Vegeta had achieved that form on his own. If he had, I would think the relative power boost would have him on par with SS3.

[@itznick7168]

Obviously he was because of his training

[@cosmosofinfinity]

Long story short, he is somewhere between adult Gohan SS2 and Goku SS2, and who knows if he was ever actually transformed into that state on screen other than Majin Vegeta looking like a bit more menacing SS1

[@SouSporting]

I highly doubt Goku went SS2 for Yakon, Goku letting energy out doesn't mean he went SS2, he has mastered SS1 he can let out alot of energy and Yakon for sure isn't even Perfect Cell level so for sure Goku didn't use that much energy to blow Yakon up, he simply gave Yakon enough energy for Yakon to not handle it. And for Vegeta, again Vegeta can say he is stronger than everybody and then shit gets real and he isn't, oh what a shocker. THIS IS VEGETA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. The only time Vegeta went ahead of someone was in Super against Toppo and that Extra spice came from absolutly nowhere in an arc where everyone could handle SSB...So consider Vegeta going ahead of Toppo a freaking ass pull in the levels of Krillin and Gohan equalling to SSB. SO having said that Vegeta can believe whatever he wants to believe doesn't mean he is right and in fact he isn't right. And he knows this because he acknowledges Gohan's emotional state as something unpredictable. So Gohan can go ahead of him at any time if he would be lagging behidn somehow. There's nothing to suggest Vegeta was implying himself aswell when he says Goku went past the SS wall either. You can assume he means himself because of how he has been speaking thus far BUT then Vegeta needs Babidi to keep up and still he is lagging behind Goku. SO that confirms Vegeta did not went and got SS2. He might be on a similar power level in terms of raw power which is exactly what Babidi did, he gives a raw power boost but SS forms are not just a raw power boost, they're a battle transformation beyond a simple power boost. They multiply what is already there. SO if Vegeta was a 100 pre babidi then after babidi he isn't a SS2 level he is 100 + X. Could X be the same value as if he went SS2? Yes it could but that only means he is exerting more power output than he should because of Babidi's magic and not that he achieved a new power beyond Mastered SS1 or SS2. He's just overcharged and not into a new form. Majin Vegeta is just SS Vegeta + X from Babidi. And let's not forget Gohan is being NERFED by plot reasons because according to Sayian biology Gohan losing power doesn't even make sense. Gohan was 11 when he beat Cell and he is now 17/18 his body has grown more powerful because it is now a fully adult body and according to Saiyan biology, they stay in their prime for an extended time because they are a fighting race and we know about the half saiyan potential being higher aswell already. So Gohan's body in no way has lost any power whatsoever. In fact Gohan has gained power and his unlock later is proof of this, his new level is a reflection of him naturally growing up. Vegeta might have gained more power to compare to an 11 year old Gohan which again is doubtful AF but he can't compare to adult Gohan. Ok let's bring Broly into this. How strong can Broly be if Broly lived in exile for most of his life? He never had proper training, he never had battle experience in Vegeta's or Gohan's level either, so why didn't Broly lose his crazy high power level after he was born? Shouldn't Broly obey the same rules as Gohan then? And let's not forget Broly is as far as we know a full blood saiyan so Gohan has higher potential. The difference here is LSS is whatever power level it wants itself to be depending on what time the form is reintroduced. OG LSS was above SS1. Super LSS is above SSB. So we can't use LSS as an effective comparison measure. So going by Saiyan biology and time skip logic which is what we can use then Broly shouldn't be LSS if Gohan can't keep his power either or the LSS we got to see isn't the real LSS Broly could achieve which would only make the Gap bigger than how drastically big it already was. So if Vegeta can go ahead of Gohan that means Vegeta would be going ahead of OG Broly. Even with Babidi boost i do not believe that whatsoever even if BRoly doesn't have Vegeta or Gohan's battle experience. And no this doesn't mean Broly is Super Perfect Cell level, it means it riddiculous for Vegeta to make a non Broly level jump to above Gohan jump in those 7 years of peace. Because let's not forget, training is one thing, actually having something stronger to fight is another. We know Vegeta trained under 150G but training is one thing and actually fighting someone with the intent to kill you is another. So Vegeta is also slacking off during those 7 years. Goku actually fought in a Tournament with people aside from him wanting to win and Goku had a really tough fight against Pikkon. But we know Goku went ahead of Gohan because of SS3 up until Elder Kai unlocks Gohan's new level.

[@AndresD.deLeon]

Vegeta stated how he needed Majin Boost in SS2 to match Goku's SS2, otherwise the Majin Boost "granting" Vegeta SS2 would make zero sense as it would imply that Vegeta SS1+Majin wouldn't even be close to a SS2, and that contradicts how much Vegeta is confident on his power over the only other confirmed SS2 user at the time, Gohan.

[@thedude9941]

Yes of course he was, after Vegeta saw the SSJ 2 power in the Cell games, it's exactly in his character to want to train and achieve that power.

[@HistoryandReviews]

“ i will never fight again” - Vegeta after Cells defeat

[@thedude9941]

@@HistoryandReviews He clearly didn't stick to that, since it was stated early in the Buu saga that he had been training since then.

[@HistoryandReviews]

@@thedude9941 changed only because Akira decided to continue

[@SouSporting]

Look if Gohan was caught lacking for 7 years where the hell does that put Piccolo? We know Piccolo doesn't lack , he always trains and meditates which is something he has over Vegeta, he just can't keep up anymore because no amount of his training could catch up yet he still trains. So if that's true for what is undoubtfully a Super Namekian at this point then was Piccolo as strong or stronger than Gohan? Could 7 years of Piccolo training put him on Gohan level like Vegeta thinks he is? Cause that has to be true or else that's the end of it. If Piccolo can't catch up, which we know he can't, then neither can Vegeta cause Vegeta was not that far off ahead of Piccolo. It took Babidi to power up Vegeta to Goku's level however Goku was still ahead because of SS3. Goku says he doesn't want an extended fight so he is using Full Power, which was still a lie but he is using his full power outside of SS3. So yeah it takes Babidi to push Vegeta to SS2 level so NO he does not get SS2 before Babidi. He was just angry because he knows both Gohan and Goku are ahead of him and he is angry at Gohan for no reason. Gohan's potential grew in those 7 years and the Elder Kai unlocks that new potential which is even greater than SS3 so it's far ahead of Vegeta.

[@miguelc2164]

Do a video if Goku went SSJ3 and knocked out vegeta in one hit and went and killed Dabura/ babidi would that energy be enough to awaken buu thank you 🙏

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

The only reason this is a debate is because fans think Vegeta was lying about being stronger then Gohan and Dabura, due to overconfidence lol. Which shows me fans will argue anything just for the sake of it. If Vegeta is watching Gohan and Dabura go at it and confirms along with goku that they could both take him, that should tell you that Vegeta was ssj2 level period. The technicality of it being ssj vs ssj2 is irrelevant because at that point of the manga they were basically called the same thing. "SSj2" was just called ascended, ultra, beyond.. etc. Which we knew Vegeta was

[@murderlesson101]

Ok so how i take this not like anyone asked but: i feel like vegeta didnt have ss2 at the time because when goku left he hyped gohan up to be stronger than everyone with latent ss2 powerup. I think vegeta thinking he was stronger than gohan was the fact that it looked like gohan spent so much time enjoying the peace that he was barely strong enough or mentally trained enough to hold up the form. I think by that time everyone was stronger than cell without the form and vegeta assumed they were both training in all that time to attain this form that should be the strongest a saiyan can get in their eyes. I think the fight against that monster in that ship was just a wakeup call that goku was keeping up at a way faster pace than him and he was definitely hiding some of his strength. I think vegeta realized that goku might’ve had ss2 during his fight with the monster and then made the deal with babidi to get the extra strength and the rage to go beyond and get in his level.. goku could’ve went to ss3 and shattered him but he knew itd be better to let him think he won and made it to surpass goku.. i dont think subtle strength differences would have made all that much difference to either one of them tbh but its just a thought

[@Est_1.997]

Yes

[@TheRibFeast]

I always assumed via the anime that by him needing to "bridge the gap" meant the gap between SSJ and SSJ2. Since there was never any evidence showing he HAD achieved SSJ2 before their fight, it means to me that he required the Majin power up to become SSJ2. That's from the anime perspective not the manga.

[@0predaking0]

I gonna said Yes, after all each new transformation brings a new bonus in power, I said this because Goku said Gohan was stronger than him and he was preoccupied if Gohan could follow him in, then Vegeta released that Goku is stronger than a SSJ2 and when he was controlled he said I did this only to shortcut the difference in our powers. That difference for me is the Boost from the SSJ3 powers

[@SG-jq5vt]

Is it a misconception that there is a specific power level requirement for someone to unlock a new form? It seems to me more like a trick to learn, sometimes it’s through loss, anger, rage, mediation, or sometimes just telling people about a tingle in their spine. I think it’s super possible that Vegeta discovered Super Saiyan 2 on his own, eapecially because it seems every time a Saiyan breaks a barrier, the other somehow see how to do it themselves as well. Maybe it’s sort of like active threat zenkai only a little different.

[@SirJoelsuf1]

Its all about zenkais. That's clearly stated in the manga as well, when Goku was training for Namek. Goku was repeating a cycle that makes saiyans stronger: Wearing himself out, recovering, then doing it all over again. By the time Goku was 25 (which was when Z began) he already had AT LEAST a dozen Zenkais. By the time Vegeta was 30 (which is his age when Z began) he had one...at most. And even THAT is contestable. Simply put, Goku tested himself WAY more often and against stronger opponents than Vegeta EVER did. If Vegeta got even five or so zenkais before Namek, he's a Super Saiyan. Why? Because his power level, at birth, was 10k.

[@marvelsandals4228]

I mean, if there's not a power level requirement then Goku should have transformed as a kid when Krillin was killed by Tambourine lol. The same argument would apply to Gohan, who is physically capable of becoming a Super Saiyan. Gohan witnessed Nappa kill Piccolo, then later Freeza shot him through the chest, and killed Krillin. Any of these should have been enough to trigger a transformation, but they didn't. The most obvious explanation is that he was WAY too weak to meet the basic requirements for transforming. Goku was the second most powerful being in the universe next to Freeza at that point, Vegeta at the height of his power didn't even come close.

[@SG-jq5vt]

@@SirJoelsuf1 Then how did Goten and Trunks get super saiyan so easily? They don’t seem to have any zenkai’s bu the time they have the new form?

[@SG-jq5vt]

@@marvelsandals4228 But as a kid, was he advanced enough? I mean, I guess in reality the idea of a Saiyan, let alone super saiyan, was not even invented at that point. Do you think Goten as a super saiyan scales to Freiza on namek? I guess they probably do huh? What about Broly? How come he got super saiyan SO late, when he was clearly strong enough for blue? I think there is more to it than just power, but I’m not super knowledgable.

[@SG-jq5vt]

@@SirJoelsuf1 Why did it take Broly so long? Do you think power is maybe a base requirement, and that you need to reach that as well as have a trigger?