Was Future Trunks ACTUALLY Stronger Than Vegeta In The Cell Saga?

[@keljerel]

Man, I discovered your channel a few days ago and you are literally answering all of the questions I had as a kid watching DBZ. Awesome content!

[@Marcus_shawn]

If you watched the show you would know all of this honestly

[@keljerel]

@@Marcus_shawn Bro, you are absolutely full of it. There are so many plot holes and questions in DBZ that it's insane.

[@LemoneMan]

​​@@Marcus_shawn that's not how that works. You can watch a show multiple times and not realize a certain something happened or whatever it may be. We're humans. Not some robots that can analyze every last detail.

[@KolaTheBear]

Please educate yourself because I am sick of arguing that Trunks and Goku both could not beat Cell.

[@StareachValcin]

Interestingly enough, both Cell and Future Trunks did hypothesize that Vegeta was aware of the grade 3 form and its limitations. So, it is entirely possible that Vegeta could transform into super saiyan grade 3 too, but chose not to because the detriments far outweigh any benefits. After all Future Trunks in super saiyan grade 3 showed far more power than Vegeta at super saiyan grade 2, but when Cell realized the weakness of the form that Future Trunks used, Future Trunks actually did worse against Cell than Vegeta did. Vegeta was clearly a better fighter than Future Trunks, but it is possible that they were at the same level of power.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

Only because he lost the speed advantage Vegeta had

[@Jiron127]

I'm positive vegeta had grade 3. Remember trunks said vegeta was standing on the same spot for days. Then he achieved it. Refer to gohan and goku. Goku literally sat for days and all of a sudden went through the levels.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

@@Jiron127 yeah I agree, but didn’t use to for the same reason as he didn’t use SSJ3 because how useless it was

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

It's possible, but the bottom line is that there is no confirmation from Vegeta that he ever had G3. The only thing the manga ever states is that Vegeta opted not to push for the form. Ppl tend to read nonexistent evidence like this into the situation because the very real possibility of Vegeta being the weakest SSJ in the Cell Arc is not something they want to consider or even accept.

[@theactiveactivist515]

​@@decepticonxhunter4850 When Cell said "Even Vegeta knew this", that was the confirmation that Vegeta also had the form, but knew not to use it. I argue that Trunks performed better as Super Trunks than Vegeta did against Perfect Cell. He had more of a back and forth fight against Cell before Vegeta left and he transformed into Ultra Trunks grade 3. It's pretty much confirmed Trunks was holding back and selling "trying hard" to get Vegeta to safety. Don't forget Half Breeds have greater potential. The only person who didn't achieve grade 3 is Gohan, because he actually achieved SSJ2, which was the best form to have at that time.

[@cywh1711]

Vegeta had Grade 3. He just didn't use it because he knew of its issues lol

[@49ers_red_and_gold2]

Why he is the smarter Trainer

[@IspoutMyOpinions]

he didn't he just wasn't stupid enough to try because of his current knowledge he knew that this is the strongest he could go without losing too much speed and stamina. Trunks was stupid enough to try it because he only cared about power not other factors such as speed, stamina issues and energy utilization.

[@everardo2345]

Lmao fr Trunks even states himself that Vegeta knew about it but knew of its weakness

[@OrevShalom]

Yea Trunks thought he was stronger because he went grade 3 but Vegeta could do it but never messed with it Vegeta knew it's flaws

[@Rude_Boi]

​@nightowl316 I wouldn't even call Trunks stupid to try out the Grade 3 transformation. He was naive and desperate to prevent the present from becoming like the hell that he came from in his own timeline.

[@Razgriz0111]

Cell: "How are you this strong!?" Vegeta: "I trained all day, yesterday."

[@spencercolborne3906]

“Bitch im adorable”

[@leonardosinche126]

Push ups or sit ups and drink plenty of juice Remember 😂😅

[@gergelybalogh3005]

I do a lot of push-ups and I drink plenty of juice.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

Force = Mass x Acceleration. Yes. If they're twice as heavy, their acceleration is cut in half, using the same force to propel themselves. Now, because of how the power system works, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be half as fast, because they can just put more ki into their movement, burning through their reserves more quickly. Mathematically, between either stamina consumption or speed, doubling their weight does in fact make them half as good at simply moving around. It doesn't matter how fast they get or how much they improve their stamina, this will simply be true always.

[@T2ThAdAwG]

Glad you said this! This is also seen often enough in combat sports where competitors move up in weight class. No matter what there will be some loss in speed

[@LowResCatExplosion]

I really like how the Z fighters refer to Cell as an it and not a he. Really makes Cell feel all the more inhuman

[@PrincessDesert]

⚡️The 1st Manga of Cell that came out in Japan back then, the title of that manga book is called “it”

[@ZolPsyko]

I think they were even. However, Vegeta is the more seasoned, better fighter. You could give the edge to him. I think if they actually worked together in the Time Chamber, they would've become stronger.

[@Jiron127]

Vegeta was stronger

[@hiphopstrongman]

Their strengths as individuals served to be the other’s weaknesses. Vegeta is the best tactician of all the Saiyans, as confirmed by King Yemma. His ego however is what leads to his undoing-if he fell back to his tactics instead of being blindsided by pride he’d be better. Trunks does not have this drawback, and he goes for the kill instead of trying to “test himself” unnecessarily. On the other hand, Trunks is emotional, and does not always think through situations completely. While him powering up in an attempt to overwhelm Cell with power was noble, it was also an emotional response because he rushed in blindly only to get his ass kicked-a result of not knowing what exactly the form he took is truly capable of. Vegeta, while arrogant, at the same time at least tests the waters to gauge what exactly his opponent is capable of. That’s why he realized that the Grade 3 form was useless against Cell in this state.

[@malrofo]

Fun fact: in supersonic warriors 2 for the DS, ssj trunks' final attack is a Phoenix buster in his ssj grade 3 form. Seems like it would be useful if you could somehow restrain your opponent (maybe with a burning attacks as thats its effect in the game) use to power boost as a final attack

[@carstan62]

Supersonic Warriors 2 is friggin GOATed! For my personal taste, I actually think ArkSys did a better job on that than FighterZ, but I know that's a hot take. I just don't think a grounded fighting game properly captures what fights are like DBZ.

[@kjo2130]

The Cell saga is so goated man. Truly isn't appreciated enough.

[@basedjiren3889]

Cell confirmed that Vegeta couldve used grade 3 but wasnt dumb enough to use it

[@tweso1499]

And as we've seen today, that threshold is vast

[@The-Omni-Saiyan_6798]

@@tweso1499 So why don't you come on down here, stop using that useless form, and quit wasting everyone's time.

[@PrincessDesert]

WRONG Vegeta goes Grade 3 too ! just like Trunks😉

[@Chille10]

He is just not stronger than trunks though...cell fought both guys and wanted to fight trunks again and couldn't care less about Vegeta

[@aeolusedge8575]

Great video as always. I remember how hyped I was seeing Super Trunks...only to learn how useless the form was lol.

[@Equinox2149]

All the power but none of the speed

[@Lynnfield3440]

I hate this inconsistency. Like broly is build like a freight train at his skinniest. But he doesn't have that issue.

[@aeolusedge8575]

@@Lynnfield3440 Yeah, I thought that was odd as well. Broly is way bigger and yet his speed is perfectly fine.

[@1sonjohn44]

Grade 2 is my favorite transformation. It would have been dope to see them master this form and go from there, instead base super saiyan. If I recall correctly, grade 2 doesn't really have drawbacks, it's grade 3 that was the issue.

[@tobin2.0]

Grade 2 just wasn't as strong as Grade 4 which also consumed less energy

[@rrose9161]

Anyone notice the similarities between the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms ( like how the 2nd form doesn't really have problems but the 3rd form has massive flaws )

[@jakd2962]

@@tobin2.0 there’s no such thing as grade 4, it’s just regular ssj that one conditions there body to over a long period of time so that they dont run out of stamina too quickly. The reason why goku got a lot stronger than vegeta and trunks is because he trains more effectively and he trained with Gohan. Those two factors allowed him to increase his base power more quickly than either of them.

[@imjustadog1897]

Mastered Grade 2 would probably be slightly stronger than mss(mastered super saiyan), but still wouldn’t last long in a drawn out fight. Grade 2 looks like it requires a lot of energy to keep the muscles bulky. Relaxing too much would probably force the user to go back down to ss.

[@jayclearmen411]

@@imjustadog1897 In the anime it looks like Future Trunks has mastered it to the point that he can apply that bulky grade 3 transformation while in ssj 2.. we see it plainly when he spars with vegeta in the Black Zamasu Arc he transforms into Super saiyan 2 then bulks up On top of that.. which was possible but never done before!? like who else has tried to turn ssj2 with a grade 3 power up on top of that.. Vegeta sees then an says “you disappoint me” but remarks that it was only a scheme to draw him in close..but vegeta transforms into blue.. proceeds to lay waste to him with utter ease.

[@somberthunder8908]

I really enjoy the topics and questions you bring to our attention. I feel like it adds even more enjoyment to the this story that we've always loved for so many years

[@brandongary8234]

I'm guessing Broly is use to being muscle bound in terms of size. It sorta like training in gravity for him except he adapt at being muscle bound

[@jordanwoodle8040]

Broly is a lot taller

[@JNIGHTification]

It not that exactly. The legendary super saiyan form is a natural genetic mutation that Broly has. Its a natural PART of his power so it doesn’t share the same drawbacks as grade 3.

[@jayclearmen411]

@@jordanwoodle8040 that doesn’t apply cuz broly is legit 7ft in his base form..he was born built and naturally taller then piccolo…but soon as he goes legendary he literally become 9ft’10 i wish i was joking.. Besides vegeta quickly realized he must have studied how to use his size strength an power.. An his dad paragus said as much to frieza even tho the emperor didn’t take it seriously..

[@douglascramer1501]

Answer: Broly can't turn into the Ozaru Form, even when he has a tail. He loses his mind because he isn't a natural-born elite Saiyan, so he can't fully control himself, like Vegeta could. The only other genetic anomaly we see is Gohan, who is the ONLY Half-Saiyan that was born with a Tail. Coincidentally, he also has emotional instability and eventually unlocks a Mythical Form.

[@SpiritLife]

Maybe grade 3 COULD be useful during a stationary move like the Kamehameha, Destructo Disc, or Final Flash. Or imagine if one of the Saiyans learned the Tri-Beam from Tien and used it in Grade 3?

[@douglascramer1501]

It's not about power, it is about stamina. If you use a Death Ball style attack, then it is fine, as your attack is fully formed and does not require a constant stream. Same with Destructo Disc. However, a Formless attack like the Kamehameha, requires vast amounts of stamina, as the constant stream will makeup for the lack of impact, that the Formed attacks specialize in. TLDR: Any form of resistance will decrease the amount of advantage that the Grade 3 Form gave you. The longer the interaction, the greater you move to a disadvantageous position.

[@SpiritLife]

@@douglascramer1501 that's a great point!

[@hildenburg5]

it reminds me of Freiza's 100 percent form where he bulked up but started to plateau then dip on power on namek

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Frieza's power didn't really dip on Namek. Goku's power continued to climb after the transformation, Frieza's attack pattern became more predictable and desperate, and all the crit hits that Goku landed were starting to add up.

[@TsuikeNovaus]

Writing this before watching the video. Was Future Trunks stronger than Vegeta in the Cell Saga? Yes, but with an asterisk. In terms of pure power, Trunks did get stronger than Vegeta. The biggest issue was, Trunks was never formally taught by a Saiyan who could see the levels beyond the base Super Saiyan 1, so when he started training with Vegeta, he thought pure power was everything. Thus, upping his strength and damage output was everything to him, whereas Vegeta had been fighting all his life, and had heard about the legendary Super Saiyan and all of the legends. He was aware of the problems of a big bulky form over his years of fighting multiple enemies, and thus, likely avoided Grade 3 as it would have lost him too much speed and maneuverability. Trunks fought for survival for far too long, while Vegeta fought as a job, and thus the gap in their experience levels was far too great for Trunks to see the downfalls. Interestingly enough though, if not for Trunks' Daddy issues, he probably would have killed Semi-Perfect Cell on the spot, or as soon as possible. Considering 17 doesn't do anything interesting for the rest of Z(and even GT's Super Android 17 is kind of meh), their world would likely have been better off.

[@gamingguru2k6]

Vegeta probably already noticed the problems with grade 2. Pushing further to grade 3 would be worse, so he tried to master grade 2. That's what I always thought.

[@douglascramer1501]

I agree. I always thought that Grade 2 was a Failed Form of SSJ 2 and, as such, was unstable. All of the Saiyans learned how to create this False Form in their training, however, Trunks was the only one that was stupid enough to exaggerate the Failed Form to sharply increase its strengths, without realizing that he also exaggerated its weaknesses. Vegeta realized that the form has weaknesses and compensated with an increased usage of Ki to make up for his reduction in speed. Only, this will exhaust him faster and reduce the time that he can fight at maximum strength. In a fight against a being that can regenerate, or has a strong constitution, it would be pathetic to try and engage in a life and death battle with them, versus a Martial Arts fight, where such a tactic could be considered smart.

[@stephano2996]

What i wonder is why didnt Trunks go for a ki blast attack when he increased his power that much but was to slow to hit him with his fists. Looking at Vegeta's final flash in a weaker SSJ grade form showed that ki blasts are effective.

[@number3stunner118]

I've thought that might've been a solid strategy to try to use his strength against Cell.

[@danielsilva-ds2u]

I agree. Even more so, if vegeta could ssj grade 3, why didn't he do that with final flash? Trunks I guess could understand that cell maybe wouldn't fall for the same trick twice and cell seemed afraid enough at the end of vegetas final flash attack that I don't think he would try tanking a blast again.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

The only reason why Vegeta hit Cell with that Final Flash is because Cell was totally confident that Vegeta wasn't a real threat to him, so he didn't bother dodging. I doubt Cell would've gave Trunks the same opportunity.

[@maniacslap1623]

Yeah Cell wasn’t letting that shyt happen lol

[@westonnwaimo4002]

@@danielsilva-ds2u he probably did for a split second because I noticed his muscles extracting when releasing the final flash. But I could be wrong ofc

[@robxholicfoxyfan8552]

Honestly Vegeta acknowledging Trunks as even close to his power speaks volumes of his actual pride in his son. I believe that Vegeta was slightly stronger overall, and even if Grade 3 Trunks was stronger than Grade 3 Vegeta (maybe hybrid Saiyans would make Grade 3's multiplier different), the drawbacks would be far too great as well and Vegeta would win regardless. Vegeta admitting Trunks is in his league is actually quite a compliment to Trunks for how Vegeta is in general. Vegeta does respect others power very rarely in the earlier arcs. He does let Cell and Frieza get the upper hand, but he doesn't necessarily respect their power in his early days, just getting mad at it since they do surpass him and wreck him. He does dislike Goku as well, but after getting beaten by Goku he doesn't disrespect his power, more Goku's attitude. The fact he wants a rematch so badly he becomes a Majin speaks volumes. So admitting Trunks is near him in strength despite not training with him directly shows his own form of acknowledgement towards his son. He may never have admitted it if Trunks did surpass him slightly, but admitting that he was that close in power at all is definitely something to consider, even if it was to torment Cell for sucking in combat.

[@Skitzotech]

The anime added a tiny detail that I saw while watching it as a kid. The first time Vegeta powers up to "Super Vegeta" he actually powered up a bit more than he should have... (likely to flex for everyone who could sense power levels) As he stood there freshly transformed he held it for like 10 seconds and let Cell soak it in. But then he immediately shrinks down a couple sizes before gut checking Cell. That alone meant that Vegeta powered up the EXACT amount that wouldnt start decreasing his speed. (Vegeta knew its weaknesses the instant he could attain that new form, without even transforming into said form, just like Goku)

[@douglascramer1501]

I agree. People forget that Vegeta is a Warrior, not a martial artist. He would never create a form as a crappy "last resort", he would rather just blow himself up, or the Planet. If Vegeta wanted a NUKE, he could have just wished back his tail.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

I think Trunks probably has about as much as hidden anger potential as Gohan does, by virtue of him surpassing his father with a new form just like Gohan did for his. Trunks just wasn't trained properly, due to Vegeta's overly strict loveless methods generally always being fundamentally flawed, and wanting to maintain continued dominance over his son the same as everyone else

[@douglascramer1501]

Argument: Gohan is a genetic anomaly, being the only Half Saiyan that was born with a Saiyan Tail. This is why his power is so unique and he eventually gains access to the "Ultimate Form" which has no limits, letting him increase his power, without having to create a new transformation. Trunks is the first ELITE Half Saiyan, so he has a better foundation than Gohan did. Just like Vegeta did vs Goku. Without outside influence, Trunks would always be stronger than any other Saiyan, including Gohan. Evidence: Goku trained with Multiple Gods, learning strange techniques, to increase his power, or exaggerated training through the use of technology: 1. Kame and King Kai 2. Gravity Machine and Hyperbolic Time Chamber Without the Elder Kai, or other strange techniques taught to Gohan, he would never surpass Trunks. Unless you include his genetic anomaly of being born with a Tail, in the explanation.

[@jadenhall7938]

No he dead wasn’t stronger…multiple points of proof

[@carstan62]

There really isn't evidence in either direction. It was said that Trunks was specifically keeping his power lower than Vegeta's for the purpose of letting Vegeta think he was stronger. This could just have been hiding grade 3, or it could have keeping his base power lower too. If we look at feats, Vegeta outsped Trunks and actually inflicted damage on Cell with Final Flash, but Trunks seemed to do more damage in the scuffle between Trunks and Vegeta with his blast. Ultimately, it doesn't matter though. They're so close in power that there really isn't a functional difference, but it's clear that Vegeta is a better fighter and Trunks doesn't know how to use his power as well. And I think that's more important. What matters more, a small difference in power or the experience to utilize that power? EDIT: So many people in the comments just repeating "Vegeta could have gone grade 3," and "Grade 3 sucks." That's not the point though. It's about whether Trunks in grade 2 was stronger than Vegeta in grade 2.

[@douglascramer1501]

Theory: Vegeta is much better at the Earthling technique of "hiding and sensing energy", so Trunks and Krillin can't tell that he has reserves. Evidence: Vegeta spent the entire Frieza Arc using the technique, on an actual battlefield with both Scouter tech and Earthlings. Trunks only ever fought the Androids, who can't sense energy anyways, so there would be no reason for him to learn that technique. Gohan barely taught Trunks anything resembling martial arts and probably just left him alone, like Piccolo did to him.

[@jameshollister8294]

He wasn't that why he went grade 3 because he couldn't see limitations

[@rrose9161]

Anyone else notice how similar the numbered ssj forms and the ssj grade forms are ( example: the 2nd form doesn't have any issues whereas the 3rd form has massive issues )

[@ezequielin5058]

Yeah, Like Some People Say If Krillin Could Tell That Trunks Was Hiding Grade 3, Why Didint He Said The Same About Vegeta If He Really Had It?

[@blaketindle4703]

“Look at me, I’m Trunks. Please love me Daaaaad!”

[@zuffin1864]

Can we give credit to dr gero for making scouter tech better than frieza's army as well? The fact that he didn't take over the world initially with the red ribbon army is just a matter of unlucky timing, like dang an alien monkey boy came to ruin your aspirations... who woulda thought that could happen

[@reeces3943]

Why didn’t Vegeta and Trunks continue to at least use grade 2 after this? It didn’t seem to have the downsides of grade 3, and I don’t think it drains too much energy as Vegeta probably wouldn’t have even bothered using it against cell in the first place

[@Valientlink]

They were probably trying to attain MSSJ and maybe to a slight extent did but as far as the anime goes it looks to me like they're in grade 2, at least Trunks

[@reeces3943]

@@Valientlink I’ve always assumed they were in grade 2 during the cell games, but I don’t know if it’s ever been confirmed or denied. Too me the hair looks spikier and they seem more bulky than regular ssj

[@jayclearmen411]

@@reeces3943 nah vegeta was in grade 2 trunks used grades 1 & 3.. unfortunately i don’t believe he mastered 2 as much as he should have!

[@armplanet7524]

​@Reece's they was in grade 2

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

@@Valientlink That's not the case, as it was a total surprise to Vegeta that something like that was even possible. His inferiority complex creeping back up when Goku powered up showed that he never once thought of mastering the SSJ to the degree that Goku and Gohan did. That was something Goku thought of while inside the SATR. Vegeta and Trunks were just focused on getting more power.

[@number3stunner118]

A couple of things that I think could support the possibility of Trunks being stronger (even if just a little) are 1)Trunks not actually being hurt by Cell (even after letting him get free shots in while waiting for Vegeta to be gone). Vegeta arguably could have been fatigued from kicking Cell's ass before his final transformation - but Trunks also fought him for awhile. 2) Krillin seemed to think Trunks was stronger, and he can sense power levels. actually, maybe 3) Perfect Cell had no interest in Vegeta, but still wanted to fight Trunks in a rematch. Hard to know, though. I think it was intentional to have the contrast of Trunks finding out the hard way that his USSJ form was a hinderance - even though his father may have know, but didn't bother to tell him - vs Goku teaching Gohan about it in training. I really don't like the retcon that Vegeta trained Trunks, when, to my knowledge, he left him to fend for himself in the chamber.

[@westonnwaimo4002]

Ikr talk ab training together they might as well have went alone or trunks try and train with piccolo or something

[@number3stunner118]

@@westonnwaimo4002 man, I've had a convo on here before about Trunks training with Piccolo, and it pisses me off that it didn't happen 😑. Gohan could've still been the one to beat Cell - Trunks could've trained with Piccolo the second time he went in. Also, in Super they fumbled then with Trunks's training also (among many other problems with the writing). Why didn't they do the SSG ritual with Trunks, have Trunks go into the chamber to train, and then have Elder Kai unlock his potential? Instead they had him sit with Gohan and see how much better life was in the timeline he basically saved, and somehow get slme new form, when they could've legit made him on par with Goku and Vegeta, which would make sense for him to be prepared for whatever timeline he ended up in, as it's protector.

[@douglascramer1501]

Argument: Trunks was never taught to hide his power level, as the androids couldn't sense energy and there was no reason to hide from anyone else. Gohan also died very quickly into Trunks' training. Vegeta has thorough use of both techniques and can be assumed to be a Master. There is very little chance that Vegeta wouldn't be able to sense Trunks' power, as he was able to sense Goku's power in multiple arcs.

[@number3stunner118]

@@douglascramer1501 Man, those were better times when this vid was new (for my situation). Don't think I ever saw this response - and wasn't sure that I had posted a comment to this video. I'm not sure that Trunks doesn't know how to suppress his power level. In the anime, when he fights Frieza's men, his power level reads so low that a henchman thinks he's a joke. He was also sandbagging against Cell to begin with. Vegeta has a huge ego, and very rarely admits that someone is stronger. I don't think he'd admit to Trunks being stronger - maybe even to himself, if there weren't a huge difference. Also, Krillin being able to notice suppressed power suggests he'd know if Vegeta were hiding a good amount of his power.

[@joshuariddensdale2126]

He was, but with one caveat: the initial level beyond Super Saiyan sacrificed speed for power. Vegeta and Goku were aware of this weakness and that was why they chose not to transform into that. Trunks found out the hard way when he confronted Cell and couldn't land a single blow. At the beginning of the Goku Black arc of Dragon Ball Super, Future Trunks deliberately transforms into it to trick Vegeta into attacking first ("Don't you dare tell me you're relying on THAT form!")

[@gangstagummybear3432]

He landed several blows, and Vegeta only landed a hit on Cell when he sat there and allowed him to kick him, this is paramount as Vegeta was less bulked than Trunks, but Vegeta couldnt even keep Cell within his view and keep up with him nor could he move fast enough to hit him if Cell didnt want him to, unlike Trunks still keeping up with Cell and able to track his movements, Cell called Vegeta a weakling, not Trunks, Trunks is the first one that started landing hits, only later on after Trunks over bulked did he get too slow to hit Cell

[@douglascramer1501]

​@@gangstagummybear3432 Vegeta exhausted Perfect Cell, more than it appears, in their fight, as Piccolo's regeneration takes a lot of stamina and energy to use. So Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell in a weakened state. Evidence: Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha Wave did about the same amount of damage as Vegeta. Destroying a large part of Cell's core.

[@dee1846]

I love the content man, looking forward to seeing more!

[@Fred63205]

16:23 sounds like 'stronger than any power I've tapped into so far, but I'll flex in a moment' 😂. Seriously though, he comes up with the tournament idea in a moment. I think he's just encouraging Trunks to train in different ways

[@jeremyhannah4730]

I sort of took Cell's "bluff" moment as Trunks had in fact achieved a tremendous amount of power, maybe comparable to SSJ2 Gohan, more likely just more powerful than Cell at 100% (right now, before the 10 day period before the tournament) So where he might not be as physically powerful, as we know Trunks would never be able to lay a hand on him. I'm sure he could block here and there, but he would ultimately avoid most of Trunks' attacks and Cell would win through attrition - in this scenario. I think, anyway. Cell's reactions seemed pretty genuine.

[@lynxchosen9073]

Out of topic, I loved when you put shine on sideline characters that although they are not main characters, they made a difference such as, Piccolo, Uub, Supreme Kai, and Fat Buu etc.

[@WeebGamer101]

That's dumb that cell got censored. Dragon Ball ain't kid friendly and shouldn't be censored just to make it appear kid friendly lol.

[@MrShadowThief]

25:50 One thing I like about the anime more. Here in the manga they don't say anything, but in the anime Vegeta says something like "Cell, the prince of planet Vegeta is going to end you!" to which Cell replies "the prince of planet Vegeta is a maggot" before slapping him.

[@socialistbatman1211]

I’d like to see an alternate timeline of Dragon Ball where the villains show up much later so they get destroyed immediately. Like if the Z fighters never encounter Frieza until whatever year the Buu saga takes place. But everyone was still able to become as powerful as they are in the main timeline. So Frieza shows up on Earth after years of searching after learning that there are Dragon Balls there (Piccolo isn’t dead in this timeline and Vegeta became a good guy after his fight with Goku without needing years of development).

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

I can’t see that scenario happening. Cause it would never take that long for Frieza to make his way to earth if he both knows about the dragonballs and the fact that vegeta is there. Plus it took that arc to Namek to introduce ssj

[@peacefulwarrior9518]

This is a great topic. You have been on a roll lately.

[@maniacslap1623]

Hell no. Trunks just showed more powered because he thought he could beat Cell with it. Vegeta already knew wat was up and in a h2h against Trunks, woulda kicked his ass im sure lol

[@dhortonofficial165]

During the Goku Black arc in the Super anime Vegeta mentions to Trunks that that form is too bulky and slow. That’s a pretty cool full circle moment

[@DaBigWilliG1995]

I always imagined it like a set of sliders you have, one saying power the other saying speed and you can ramp up the power one but if you bring it beyond a point it starts brining down your speed, like you are literally drawing this power from your speed stat.

[@blazebburnin1]

I don't really know what to think. You pointed out the things that make it seem like vegeta is stronger than trunks, but the point that confuses me is how could krillin sense power in trunks but not sense it in vegeta ???

[@Chronoflation]

I always assumes Trunks held back a bit around Vegeta to not hurt his pride, but also that he completely lacked the ability to really properly guage his opponents since he only ever really fought against androids he couldn't sense and training with Gohan who definitely didn't go all out against Trunks (at least not while in Super Saiyan form)

[@Chronoflation]

So I took both as being unreliable and Trunks being on par with or slightly stronger than Vegeta, since Krillin could tell Trunks was holding back in a way Vegeta wasn't.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

You're giving Trunks far too little credit. His IQ wasn't as high as Goku or Vegeta's, but that doesn't mean he was a complete imbecile. He was able to gauge Frieza's power, and also Piccolo's after he fused with Kami. He also knew he could handle Cell's attacks long enough for Krillin to get Vegeta away from the area. He wouldn't have taken that risk if he wasn't sure about how much he could take from Cell.

[@Chronoflation]

@@decepticonxhunter4850 I mean, in terms of raw power, sure, but he's not good at guaging when people are holding back

[@ab-hx8qe]

I always understood it as speed decreasing due to bulk and not weight. Kinda like how super heavy weight body builders can’t answer their phone the normal way because their muscles get in the way.

[@t5hammer871]

Super Saiyan Grade 3 serves the same purpose as SSJ3: Its a one-shot kill form. You use it to amp your power as high as you can then throw your strongest blast/punch to kill the opponent in one shot. If they can't stand up to you, gucci! If they can... then ur in trouble... for different reasons, obviously. SSJ3's power drain is NUTS and SSJ grade 3 is just too slow to be worth it.

[@MaskedFighter]

What would make these videos better is a bit of dbz music in the background while going through explanation it would set the mood

[@KurokamiNajimi]

12:35 Toei watching WRITE THAT DOWN WRITE THAT DOWN

[@AKASUKIJOE]

I always assumed when Cell said Trunk's power was "greater" thank his he was talking physical striking power and not all around power but was phrasing it to stroke Trunks ego to sort of make fun of him and make the psychological blow of beating him all the worse

[@95zakariya_]

ppl always be forgetting just because vegeta didn’t go grade 3 ain’t mean can’t, vegeta is a battle genius wheras trunks was still young and erratic (ngl this hella ironic considering trunks was making the smarter decisions throughout this whole arc)

[@bitterthenu7278]

To answer the final flash question I think its rather simple. Cell only accepted the challenge of staying still because to him it was an attack from a weakling, he was going to prove once again and flex that even without his speed and technique he had just way more raw power. If vegeta went grade 3 and surpassed cells (suppresed) power by a "wide margin" then trying to tank an attack from a stronger opponent would just be stupid so he would just dodge it instead.

[@castrogonzalez614]

After Vegeta powers up against Cell he exhales, shrinking some of that muscle. To me that means that he knew not to transform too bulky

[@nayoti5567]

Idk what it says in the manga, but in the anime it's mentioned by trunks when gohan is super sayian 2 that he has the power of grade 3 without loss of speed. So I guess you could compare the two with power. I'd like to think trunks was just close to super sayian 2 but not quite there yet.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Unless i'm overlooking something, Trunks doesn't make that statement in the manga. However, the eye test still makes it fair to assume the power of G3 and SSJ 2 were comparable.

[@EckerKyle]

19:33 lol calling out the comments is chefs kiss

[@UnlimitedRadioButNoSoap]

5:39 "I'm HIM"

[@hajime_87]

It's not about the weight the muscles put on their body. These are characters that can move faster than the eye can see under multiple times gravity. It's more of a power balance. Well super Saiyan 1 and grade 2 boost both power and speed, grade 3 focuses more on power.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

Except Cell literally Stated Trunks would’ve beat him if he had the speed along with the power, which debunks your explanation lmao

[@LSMMIKE]

I guess you missed the part of the video where I broke those statements down in depth. You must’ve been too busy writing your “gotcha” comment…

[@SonZackSSJ2]

@@LSMMIKE I just believe Trunks is Weaker in Base form, And was stronger in Grade 3, but his speed definitely decreased and became slower than Grade 2, Grade 3 I agree is the most useless form in DBZ but it’s strength multiplier is bigger than Grade 2 while the speed was just slower because how bulky it is

[@SledgedaGawd]

My Favorite OG DB-tuber keep it up Mie!

[@donovanbradford8231]

Great video as always and I would say at best because of ability and what we see Trunks and Vegeta are about even in terms if strength after the training. I would say during the Cell Games their still even, because while we don't see Piccolo in the manga take damage he obviously does given how he's drawn but in the anime Cell points out after his fight with Goku, Goku's too weak to put up much of a fight against the Cell Jr.s and while Piccolo holds his own better than say Tein or Krillin, Cell only says that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones really holding out. This is also shown when Cell and Gohan are in the beam struggle Piccolo is the first ti jump in to try and help and he hits Cell with the Masaneko only for Cell to not move, then comes the Special Beam cannon with the same effect, vs Vegeta who blasts Cell and causes Cell to flinch and break his focus. Chances are Trunks would have done the same if he was in the fight.

[@muhammod95]

So I had this thought when you mentioned a few similarities between Cell v. Vegeta and Cell v. Gohan... My theory is that Vegeta didn't kill Cell because he was used to sparring with Trunks in the Room of Spirit and Time. This same explanation can apply to Goku giving Cell a senzu, as well as to Gohan toying with Cell instead of killing him. The 4 saiyans experienced a year of fighting with a person they didn't want to kill. A year is a long time, compared to a single day in the real world. It would be easy to lose sight of the goal or to become conditioned to show mercy to those you've just defeated. For Goku and Gohan, showing mercy is just their way of life, but neither Trunks NOR Vegeta had those traits before entering the ROSAT. Surely a year in the chamber messes with one's mind? (Typing the above led me to a different thought. Goku and Gohan almost never train alone, and they're quite likely to show mercy to enemies. Vegeta, on other hand, had always trained alone, and Trunks really had no choice but to train alone... 😅 So, Trunks and Vegeta's willingness to kill their opponents could possibly be explained by this key difference, and this could be supported by the way we see Vegeta's character change dramatically after training with Trunks, and more so after the events of the Cell Games.)

[@theactiveactivist515]

I say Trunks was stronger in all forms. Remember, he is a mixed breed, and it is canon that they have greater potential than full blood Saiyans. As Super Trunks, Grade 2, at least in the anime, he was actually exchanging with Cell and Blocking some attacks. He even knocked Perfect Cell around a little. Super Vegeta couldn't do that at all. Trunks didn't power up to Ultra Trunks, grade 3, until Krillin took Vegeta away. But yes, at least based on the anime, he performed better against Cell than Vegeta did as Grade 2 SSJ. Even in the manga, when cell is "beating him up" we are supposed to understand, Trunks was trying to sell that he was "trying", but he was actually not even fighting the best he could as a Grade 2 SSJ. Then this was exposed to us when Cell said he knew Trunks was trying to keep Vegeta safe.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

If the future mike I would like to see you do stuff like this on the movies

[@LSMMIKE]

Any specific topics you have in mind regarding the movies?

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@LSMMIKE one of my Main questions was piccolo fuses with kami during return of cooler or suepr 13, and stuff like is Perfect or super perfect cell & ssj2 teen Gohan stronger then Z Broly or is super 13 weaker then 17 or 18 stuff like that

[@Jugi_boy]

I always wondered if freezer 100% form affects his speed like grade 3 ssj does

[@justinarzola4584]

He was keeping up with Goku in their fight so I don't think so, maybe the form delayed his reaction which is why he got cut up by his disk or Frieza is just an idiot, probably the latter.

[@mex321]

@@justinarzola4584 I think Frieza at the point of being cut in half was a matter of these things: 1- Exhaustion 2- Arrogance 3- Frustration of a long battle he felt he was losing

[@Pauzix]

I remember Harold explaining Cell vs Ultra SSJ Trunks couple of years ago but I can't find the video... "if you grow then you also need to cut ~ Harold"

[@mythicalxfightsmugen]

Youre answering questions i never knew I would be curious about! Ive always wanted to know why the Kais are no longer around what happened? Characters like Pikkon i feel couldve participated in the TOP

[@DJAmovement]

Lol I can’t believe you did the “voice”

[@megasmit]

What if they could transition to 'grade 3' faster. Like right before they land a blow bulk up, then back down

[@MaskedFighter]

A few things to keep in mind, Trunks assumed Vegeta never knew about grade 3, but later finds out Vegeta was actually able to go grade 3 but already knew the limitations so he chose not to use it, further evidence is when Vegeta wakes up after being knocked out he senses Trunks grade 3 vs Cell, he wasnt at all in awe of Trunks power, infact dismissing Trunks as foolish for using that form and thinking he could beat Cell, so Trunks being stronger was an assumption, was he stronger than Super Vegeta..By far! but did Vegeta have access to grade 3? Yes! So technically speaking we didnt see Vegetas full power, i'll say they were both even or theres a slight possibility that Vegeta couldve been just a bit stronger but he never used that power because he knew he wouldn't be able to hit Cell with it.The Super Vegeta transformation was better balance but just lacked the power and speed to compete against a perfect Cell, Grade 3 has thd power but zero speed making the form completely useless.

[@raziax9603]

Unrelated to the subject matter, but I always thought that the friendship Krillin and Future Trunks developed was interesting. When you think about it.. future Trunks didn't really make any close friends with any of the other Z fighters. But who was with him when they raided and destroyed Gero's lab? Who was with him during this fight? Who got the closest to Future Trunks? It was Krillin. In retrospect, you'd think Gohan would.

[@WickedKnightAlbel]

Putting aside the ki expenditure argument detracting from the impact of the blast, if I had to guess, Vegeta never went grade 3 while firing that iconic Final Flash because of its massive boost to his ki ceiling being too much of a telegraph to Cell that this one was gonna be big enough to represent a true threat even to him, and Vegeta was unsure that entire time if he'd actually stand still and take the blast knowing that Frieza's cells give him a penchant for cowardice

[@douglascramer1501]

Argument: Vegeta, has never seen Piccolo regenerate and had no idea that Cell could heal half his torso, including vital organs, in an instant. Regardless: Cell's regeneration takes a lot of energy and stamina, unless he gets a Saiyan zenkai boost, because Piccolo's regeneration takes a lot of energy and stamina. Evidence: Cell lost a lot of energy and stamina after having to regenerate from Goku's Instant Transmission Kamehameha. It was so drastic, that Goku gave him a Senzu Bean. Trunks only fought an exhausted Perfect Cell. If he had stayed in his Grade 2 Form, he might have actually been able to survive, having enough stamina to get away from Cell. Vegeta = Warrior Goku = Martial Artist Vegeta never really "trained" in Martial Arts, he has just been slaughtering Worlds since he was an infant...

[@catmansweater5466]

I always thought vegeta was stronger. But held enough back. Trunks was just gullible in believing he was stronger.

[@justinarzola4584]

Vegeta was stronger since he knew the grade 3 was useless.

[@catmansweater5466]

@@justinarzola4584 I think vegeta in grade 3 would be stronger then trunks grade 3

[@justinarzola4584]

@@catmansweater5466 grade 3 would hold Vegeta back.

[@catmansweater5466]

@@justinarzola4584 you hold back

[@sergoross3964]

Grade 3 is useless in duels, but I can see it being useful in team fights, where your friends can somehow restrain opponent from moving, like raditz vs goku and piccolo fight. For example, imagine trunks going grade 3 and starting to punch cell in the back, while cell is busy holding back gohans beam. But this kind of teamwork was rarely explored in dbz.

[@jayclearmen411]

yup! that would mean exploring real tactics which are a thing often underutilized in dbz

[@clintongillespie4811]

The only reason that transformation works for Broly when he gets angry or continues to fight his power is always increasing that's the only way I can figure why booked up as he is he's not slowing down

[@muff258]

Jo shoutouts from germany 🙏

[@Sennodev]

Funniest part of the fight when cell was like “it’s vegeta wtf how I’m losing. ITS FUCKEN VEGETA !!!” Lmao like he was gonna get that easy dub

[@Lynnfield3440]

I like the whole thing about more Muscle making you slower and then you have broly that is build like a freight train, not having that problem.

[@ezequielin5058]

Base Broly Is Taller Than All Of Them, And When Broly Goes Legendary/Full Power Not Only His Muscle Mass Increases But Also His Height

[@Lynnfield3440]

@@ezequielin5058 yeah that is the issue. At his skinniest he is build like a freight train. But he doesn't get slowed down. Meanwhile anyone else does. We probably shouldn't try to make sense of it anyways. But the whole more mass means you're slower is just very inconsistent. Great ape should have the worst penalty off all of these, but that form doesn't get it either. It doesn't become useless because of all the gained mass in comparison to the very low amount of power gained by it. Then you're even bigger than broly, and like the empire state building already dwarfs in comparison to him. I should probably just not try to make sense of it, but It does and will always annoy me.

[@NeoNaw]

No matter how strong you are doubling your mass is always going to slow you down. Energy needed to achieve certain level of speed is equal to 1/2 * mass * speed^2 ([mV^2]/2). The energy becomes greater when you include relativistic effects but let's ignore that for simplicity. I can provide more elaborate explanation, but in short doubling your mass is going to reduce your speed square root of 2 times making you 1.41 times slower.

[@furiousgamerxz5141]

Broly

[@OneCut1Slash]

Toriyama seem to have made it a recurring theme throughout the saga to show Trunks was often wrong and a bit naive. So him thinking himself stronger than Vegeta at this point makes sense even though there's a good chance he wasn't.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Trunks was often wrong and somewhat naive, but to use it as an argument against him being stronger than Vegeta doesn't prove anytihng. A person could just as easily use the argument that Vegeta historically tended to overestimate his own abilities. Trunks being naive has nothing to do with his ability to sense power lvls.

[@ethanisrael4970]

I feel like grade 3 could have massive potential in tag team scenarios

[@MarzooqPrimal416]

The bigger debate I've seen online is who is stronger kid Buu vs super Buu,although it should be a obvious answer

[@clark987878]

Vegeta:"As if you'd blast your own father" My father's dead *blasts* Your fate was always in my hands. DRAMATIC FINISH!!!

[@Aleiza_49]

I think Future Trunks was stronger than Vegeta in RAW POWER terms, but Vegeta was more experienced as a fighter and know how to use his ki more efficiently. Cell Saga Vegeta was very strong tho, especially during the second imperfect Cell form fights, he would have killed Cell at that point if not for him allowing Cell to reach Perfect.

[@eli_da_man_]

I wouldn't say that it's the added weight of muscle that causes the drop in speed; I sort of view it in terms of real life. If someone bulks muslce to an absurb amount, especially while not doing any kind of mobility training then all movements would become very stiff compared to when they were thinner. Of course there are very muscular fighters that are fast, but they are bigger people who grew into/adjusted to their growing bodies so that state of being is natural for them. But with Super Saiyan Grade 3, your bodys muscle mass suddenly increases several times over. It'd be like having an entirely different body and not knowing how to utilize it

[@raincatchfire]

I think in the moment when Vegeta attacks cell with that initial energy blast that that rage boost made him on GOKU's level but just for that moment because again vegeta didn't have a normalized grade 4 like Goku and Gohan to minimize the power draw of the form, so of course Vegeta quickly starts losing power and then Cell does his thing.

[@douglascramer1501]

Answer: Vegeta and Goku were both instinctually doing the same training, pushing their energy to the MAX and maintaining it as long as possible, to increase stamina in the Super Saiyan Form. Grade 2 was a result of not properly controlling all of the energy, resulting in the body transforming to accommodate the strain. Grade 3 was a result of pushing this Failed Form to the MAX. It is similar to Frieza's 100% Full Power Form, and can only be maintained for a very brief time. Theory: Vegeta never went into Grade 3 because he is a seasoned warrior and not a Tournament Martial Artist, so he understands what is required to survive on the Battlefield. If he needed a NUKE, he could just wish his tail back and regain his Ozaru Form, which you could argue that the absence of, is the reason for Vegeta and Goku's rapid growth.

[@derekhogan9685]

I do think Trunks had more raw power but he was ultimately lacking everything else. His only real instruction was through a version of Gohan that had 6 months of PIccolo boot camp, a bit of sparring with Krillin and likely some training with Goku. He also doesn't seem to have Vegeta's sheer instinct for training nor combat experience. He could've hit hard but lacked the speed or anything else to actually do anything with it.

[@everardo2345]

Anyone that thinks this is dumb, Trunks literally states when he’s fighting Cell that he realized Vegeta had it the whole time but understood why he didn’t use it because he knew of its weakness.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Trunks never stated that. What he said was that Vegeta recognized G3's limits and didn't continue to push for that form. If Vegeta truly had G3, he wouldn't have gotten wrecked by the Cell the way he did. Cell even told Trunks that he wanted to to his power against him instead of Vegeta. That pretty much says it all as to who was stronger. Vegeta was nothing more than a warm up act for Cell.

[@everardo2345]

@@decepticonxhunter4850 wrong, Trunks never says that. How would vegeta know of the forms weakness without ever attaining it? Makes absolutely no sense why he would assume that if he never experienced the form or saw anyone use it. He obviously did unlock it when he left Trunks by himself and trained on his own. You just don’t get that.

[@zerocks88]

I always thought Vegeta didn't go into the form because it would be too obvious to Cell that he had that much power then and he would block or dodge the attack What I never got then was, if Cell was just a sitting duck and Vegeta had a clear shot etc why didn't Trunks do something right after to finish him off?

[@zerocks88]

also yes confirmed you're absolutely right with this analysis, Trunks was never more powerful, if anything he was equal but I think weaker by a fraction, just that Vegeta never wanted to use grade3 SSJ and Trunks didn't know he had it

[@Gabu_]

IMO, as a hybrid, Trunks probably was a bit stronger than Vegeta, but had no real battle experience aside from a couple skirmishes with the Androids and blowing up Frieza.

[@michaljagielo7448]

When Vegita buffed up to fight Semi Perfect Cell, he was an Ultra Super Sayan to me. Then when Trunks fell into his transformation it was clear to me that he is better than his father...better yet, later on he buffed up even more, gaining more muscle mass. Power levels are lacking logic anyways...

[@betterthanemril988]

Krillin really hyped trunks up too 😂

[@brucecook502]

I would say that yes, he was stronger in the sense that his potential to provide more perks in bulk form during a fight then Vegeta. Offensively, absolutely not, in fact I would give the advantage to Vegeta for fighting knowledge and skill and experience because their power levels were pretty equal, but the advantages or perks when transforming up, could be used to make him more resilient if attacked by certain attacks from super powerful opponents, but he would have to go in and out of this bulk transformation quickly to use it to withstand certain attacks that his lesser transformation couldn't withstand. Also, his more bulky transformation could help him finish his opponent more easily given his opponent has been weakened enough. So my conclusion is, if trunks remained in his non-bulk Super Saiyan form, he could be just as effective offensively as Vegeta since he would retain his speed, but quickly and briefly switching to his book form when defending against incredible he attacks, and if he used it to finish an enemy off, he would have certain advantages over Vegeta. In the end though, it entirely depends on the opponent and how well the opponent can deal with the non bulk versions of Vegeta and Trunks. Trunks and his powerful but slow Bulk form wouldn't do him any good if he gets killed before he can utilize this other form.

[@kidaswaggin]

@23:22 he might have not used the grade 3 super Saiyan because he didn't want to expel all his energy in one attack because he wanted him to put up a fight because of his Saiyan pride

[@SonZackSSJ2]

It’s the same reason he skipped SSJ3

[@Mysticshosh42]

If goku discovered the weakness of grade 3 almost immediately obviously vegeta knew if its weakness as he would figure out immediately and ill never understand when people tell me vegeta couldn't do grade 3 when he could have he just knew the weakness

[@TheViper-yv6yp]

I think Cell meant Trunks was stronger than him Muscle v Muscle as supposed to power level vs power level in one dub i heard Cell say something like "your actually stronger than myself currently...well...in just brute muscle...and muscle isn't everything"

[@JackNapierKnows]

I was just thinking about this today

[@TheDarkFuryKnight]

I wonder if there is a slim version or speed version of super saiyan 1 that instead of making you lose speed makes you lose strength.

[@freakdavid4085]

i asked myself the same question, and it is more or less impossible to say but what is clear is it dosnt matter if Trunks is stronger or not he definetly isnt MUCH stronger just a tiny bit stronger if even.

[@justinarzola4584]

Trunks fell behind Vegeta, Goku and Gohan due to his lack of training and battle experience, he only had one sparring session with future Gohan before he died.

[@freakdavid4085]

@@justinarzola4584 when did Trunks "fall behind"? he started out when he came from the future as a super saiyan already stronger then Vegeta, then Vegeta turned Super Saiyan at which point yes he was weaker then Goku and Vegeta but still stronger then Gohan and then he went into the room of time and got to a similar lvl then Vegeta even if you wanna argue he is weaker Vegeta himself said he is a BIT weaker not that he is MUCH weaker so i dont get your point? also him not fighting..... Frieza never trained in his life and never had a fight yet he was the strongest in the universe..... more or less ._. so in Dragonball having experience in fighting isnt that important raw power is and he is a hybrid so he has a lot more potential.

[@SonZackSSJ2]

Trunks was Weaker in Base, but You need to keep in mind that Trunks’ fight with Cell was longer than his with Vegeta, and ontop of that, Cell stated Trunks would’ve beaten him if he had the speed along with Grade 3

[@Nestle245]

Serious question when did the Fandom start calling the SS levels by grades like "grade 2" and "grade 3?" I always remembered Ultra being the name for it because it was all over merchandise around when the Cell Saga debuted.

[@LSMMIKE]

Those are fan made names. The real, official names are Grade 2, 3 and 4.

[@Nestle245]

@@LSMMIKE The official names by the fans? The number of grades were never mentioned in the manga or anime. The fans made that up. It seems they're both fan made because it was always mentioned as ascended super sayain in the story, but Ultra was the name given for it on merchandise. The only time I ever say the grade's being mentioned was fans on the internet. The grades are alternate names given for it. Grade 3 and Ultra are the same just different names for the fans to call it.

[@LSMMIKE]

The Grades are the official names that came from V-Jump and the guidebooks. Even Super Saiyan 2 was called “Grade 5” until Goku “named” it when transforming for Buu.

[@RodrigoAReyes95]

What it doesn’t make sense is that, for aliens able to move at the speed of light or faster and destroy entire planets without efforts, why does weighing a couple of pounds makes a difference in their speed and power? 😂

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Because it makes all the difference between gaining an advantage in an actual fight. Cell bulking himself up for the sake of gaining an advantage on SSJ2 Gohan makes that clear. Being able to blow up a planet doesn't amount to squat against someone that can counterattack.