Watching "Teaching Fighting Games Like A Professional" By

[@generalwool]

To the non-fighting game fans who were waiting for Elden Ring, I apologize. Hope my rambling made you think of tutorials in a different light though.

[@manutdfan231]

Well that rambling has earned you a subscription

[@Dracobyte]

I am ok this. These videos are interesting

[@Kumo-s6f]

Me with a dogshit connection and no irl friends: "Hm, interesting. I'll be sure to apply this knowledge sometime soon."

[@rat8294]

Yeah none of my friends play fighting games

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

This was my struggle back when I was like 10 and getting into this weirdo game none of my friends had heard of called Street Fighter 4.

[@xnopyt-aaajjj]

@@rat8294 It's easier to turn a fighting game player into a friend than to turn a friend into a fighting game player. Go find your locals and make some new friends!

[@benjaminjameskreger]

​@@THENAMEISQUICKMANsame, that's the one that got me into the scene after I picked up and immediately dropped MvC3

[@benjaminjameskreger]

Nothing has gotten me more invested in fighting games than reading the SF4 wiki years ago while looking for a main and seeing "Cody is a frame trap demon". I thought to myself 'what's a frame trap?', looked that up, thought 'that sounds annoying, I'm in!' and was off to the races. Just one sentence piqued my curiosity and immediately taught me a high level concept, which inspired me do a deep dive into my character's frame data, which then developed into every character's (relevant) frame data, which finally became every character's (relevant) hit boxes. I can't imagine picking that up in response to getting frame trapped, I'd assume they landed a lucky light or counter hit every time. Nowadays, first thing I do with any new fighting game is look up the frame data on every character's jab, projectiles and reversals, and the moment I get hit with what I'd consider jank, we're looking up that move's hitbox immediately. That's why I know that you can grab Banjo out of Wonderwing in SSBU, I was never gonna figure that out organically, I just saw that his grab hurtbox extends beyond his hitbox after a quick Google search.

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

There is nothing funnier than the TEACH ME, MISS LITCHI theme playing over the "IN OTHER GAMES YOU'RE BAD YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT" quote by Sajam

[@kevinmendez9126]

whatever the correct way to get more people into fighting games is having to fight the wazzler is not the answer lmao

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

People acting like they have to fight him over and over when they can just easily find a new opponent. Wazzler exposes rage quitters and the like, that's all

[@kevinmendez9126]

@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Oh I mean you're absolutely correct and no one can fault Justin for playing the game he's good at and having fun like anyone else, but anyone else looking at that has to acknowledge that laughing at that is finding comedy at new potential players being driven away. Doesn't make it any less funny, but something that has to be acknowledged all the same

[@wideassairvents]

​​@@kevinmendez9126making a real leap there to say that one expert stunting on random players is driving people away from MVC or really any game. There's just no evidence for it at all, and it doesn't make logical sense. There's an emotional logic to it, but that doesn't mean anything

[@kevinmendez9126]

@@wideassairvents I don't understand how you think the idea of players is somehow separate from any individual person who's playing that game. Every person that you, or Justin, or anyone else fights in a fighting game is a player. And if they picked up that game relatively recently, they're a new player. This isn't some far away observation of how one players' interactions are literally having an effect on every player of that video game in the whole world. Of course not. But if any of the people Justin fought were new players who then decided to drop the game after he schooled them multiple times, that's literally a real example of someone being driven away. And there's no moral judgement on that, but it's something that literally happens and is directly relevant to the broad conversation of how to get people to join in (and stay) in fighting games. And considering the comedic value of that idea is literally present in both Justin as the player and all the viewers as observers, it's tacitly being accepted at the very least as an expected possibility, if not as something that can, will, or has happened. To pretend it's unrelated is ludicrous because you're trying to argue it doesn't represent the macroscopic situation of fighting games as a whole, when that was never my point. The point is that it is a relevant, high profile, microcosm and that seeing woolie laugh hysterically about it on the podcast in glee and then have many dedicated discussions trying to break down everything around people not staying into fighting games is funny to think about, as if the two dots never connect for him or others.

[@layedbackthomas]

I think one of the biggest challenges in learning fighting games is learning everything while also keeping it fun. It can so easily start to feel like a chore.

[@crowclaw]

I'm still wondering why Arcade and Storymode aren't part of the onboarding conversation. It's always about "steps taken after being blown up in matchmaking", considering new players even got that far.

[@BlazeMakesGames]

I still hold that Yomi Hustle has taught me more about Fighting Games than anything else. Slowing everything down to a turn-based format where I have time to understand the situation and also preview what would happen based on what move I select has taught me so much about mixups, whiff punishing, combos, etc. I kinda wish that other fighting games could implement like a Yomi mode that turns it into a turn based game like that to help teach those kinds of mechanics. (Plus it could be a really fun mode) I think that World Tour was a great idea but the execution could be better. I think there's too much of a focus on the wandering around and RPG-like elements and I think it'd be better if they focused more on the minigames like the one that helps you practice different inputs and such. Also more focused enemy design that specializes in things like grappling or mixing low and high attacks would be good. I didn't play much of Them's Fighting Herds but I do recall it starting off really well with actual level design that was focused on teaching you certain mechanics. There was a vertical platforming section to teach you how to do different kinds of jumps. Certain enemies focused on reinforcing a specific strategy. etc etc. I should really give it another shot sometime. Also yeah I do think a big thing Shooters have over Fighting games is ironically letting the player fail faster. When you get killed in only a couple seconds, it actually becomes a lot easier to recognize what killed you and what mistakes you made or what you could be doing better. But when you make a mistake in a Fighting game, you then get locked into a 30 second long combo where you're not entirely sure if there's something else you should be doing and then eventually the combo ends and you make another mistake and get locked into another combo and by that point you've already forgotten what was even happening when you made that first mistake. I also think that reggie has a point in how other games can offer a lot more progression. Like he said in DMC5, you don't start with Dante because that would be an insane thing to do, you start with Nero with only a fraction of your moveset and I don't think you even have a single Arm at the start. Then they slowly introduce more Arms over time and you unlock more moves over time. Until eventually by the time you even unlock Dante, you've gotten a lot more familiar with the game's mechanics so Dante's insane moveset and versatility is a lot more manageable. And even then you still slowly unlock all of Dante's weapons over time. I think there could be a valid strategy in a fighting game campaign that starts the player with like literally 3 moves and that's it and then slowly introduces more basic moves to the moveset over time before even getting to having any special moves or supers or anything.

[@3R9Sasuke]

Man, I've always thought fighting games could really do with a story mode like you said. Start with less moves and treat it like an action game. I also tried a little of Thems Fighting Herds and liked how the story mode was done and planned out, thought I never finished it. I should go back and finish it

[@Coswalker27]

I I had that experience when I played rumbleverse. I don't know what it was but it flicked a switch in my brain. Hell it even help me get over my fear of going online in fighting game.

[@benjaminjameskreger]

Smash Bros has always done a great job of teaching jumping and platform movement with adventure/story mode. When the sole motivator in a low stress situation is wanting to get from A to B asap, you get pretty good at it.

[@SpectrumSO]

8:30 Is like the inverse of how we need to tell Woolie everything in fighting game terms

[@theotherjared9824]

The smash series had a great hidden training mode in break the targets. Every character got an obstacle course where the player learns practical concepts without realizing. However, it degraded to a few generic courses before being cut entirely.

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

Break the targets amounted to VERY BASIC movement knowledge and the directions of your attacks. Actually playing against opponents was a far cry from whatever targets taught you.

[@Rusty_Spy]

@@NeutralGuyDoubleZerothat mode taught me that young link had a wall jump

[@ratfink2079]

Tekken 8 just did an update where you can now go to replays right after you finished a ranked match. Now I actually have no excuse about matchups.

[@RetroDragonfly]

I think the game that helped me get the most familiar with fighting game concepts was Your Only Move Is HUSTLE. I think having a yomi hustle styled tutorial/training mode where you just *pause* play-by-play and do all the decision-making without the pressure of execution will go a long way.

[@10kRats]

YOMI Hustle came in around the time where I was kinda done with GGST as my first fighting game, and I remember being able to pubstomp very early because people didn't apply things that seemed super natural to me. Game is very good for showing you when youre right! Not so much when youre wrong...

[@Aikrehn]

I can only imagine how difficult it would be, but I'd like to see games with an expanded version of Tekken 8's replay system. Being able to watch a replay, be shown where I messed up, what I could have done, and then practice what I learned is incredibly useful.

[@Dracobyte]

I recomend reacting to "Every Fighting Game Tyoe Explained" by Core A Gaming. It is really good!

[@NeutralGuyDoubleZero]

Better/more diverse CPU options would help a ton. Having the spectrum mostly being brain dead or kick my ass hard isn't very helpful. Let me fight an aggressively tuned ai, maybe another focused on jump ins and mix ups, etc.

[@rael7830]

An idea ive always wanted for a fighting game training mode is something along the lines of a pop up showing up every so often offering a reward to the player if they win in a difficult fight against a cpu, but the cpu has a built in weakness that is usually left unpunished by most people, however the game can give you a hint on their weakness for free to allow the player to get a leg up against what usually be an unfair fight against a cpu that reads your inputs. so like if a ryu kept doing dragon punches every single time they get knocked down, or that they throw out mostly unsafe buttons from midrange so the player can feel like they are gaming the system and breaking the game a bit by exploiting the weakness, letting the player have fun by making a fight that was once destroying them turn into a cake walk. Idk, prob a dumb idea and no one will read this but i just had to say something, idk

[@SomeDudeOtaku]

I've been trying to make a fighting card game to tackle this topic. I call it Deadly Hands and I'm trying to keep the core concept of fighting video games but in a slower card game format. It's still just a side project of mine and still needs much more development but hey, if it gets anywhere, hopefully it would be a good starting point for the genre.

[@benjaminjameskreger]

That sounds like a great combination of genres previously unexplored, like Puzzle Quest putting RPG elements into a puzzle game framework. I have no idea how it would be done, but if Capcom could manage to make Battle Network out of Mega Man, I'm sure you can make a card game out of a fighting game.

[@Pompadourius]

That sounds sick, hope it comes out some day.

[@SomeDudeOtaku]

@@benjaminjameskreger well there are other card games like Exceed and Yomi which do a fighting game style in a card game format but I don't think they accurately capture fighting video games. They are cool but I see them as a card game first, fighting game second.

[@SomeDudeOtaku]

@@Pompadourius that would be awesome but at the moment I'm just one guy doing a side project. I do have a playable version with two characters on the twitter I made. Got plenty more characters in mind but gotta make sure the main foundation of the game is good first.

[@night1952]

I just don't like labing, I like learning how to play by playing.

[@6MillionPesoMan]

Woolie vs Wool

[@pennyisdreadful]

the tekken 8 arcade mode teaching you things for YOUR character is very cool.

[@darkwraithraziel6362]

Something to note that in fighting gam3s, theres IS one other person to blame, and thats your CHEATING TRY HARD SWEATY NO LIFE META PLAYING OPPONENT! NAMED JOHN!

[@nahuel3433]

Freaking john! Uhhhh if only I wasn't such an honest low tier enjoyer

[@specters_art]

I've never really got why people say that in team games people are just bad there and defusing it where they can't in fighting games. You can always see the score boards in multiplayer games, how many kills, deaths, assistance, revivals, saves, etc there are stats that can show you are contributing or failing. I guess someone can just ignore those stats and blame others, but they can still make excuses for why they lose in one on one games. There are just people that cannot accept loss, much less see it as a learning experience. Their fragile egos cannot handle that.

[@Shadowlily1112]

That's true but you can argue that bad team performance stacks the odds against you. If your team is just throwing their bodies at the enemy instead of playing an objective you're probably fighting outnumbered battles and thus dying a lot and not getting kills

[@specters_art]

@@Shadowlily1112 when you get to a competitive level in multiple games people aren’t preforming like that. And if you’re just playing unranked then you can expect things like that but it doesn’t really matter. Comes down to if want to improve or not. And sometimes people cannot get beyond the step that to learn you are going to lose.

[@StanNotSoSaint]

The lists of lessons in tutorials are presented horribly. Person boot up a game and has to chose between "walking forward", "just frame perfect parry push guard", "high-low crossunder option select frametrap", and "Climax Ultimate Showstopper Unison Desecration©". Imagine options they had were more like "How do I get the guy who runs away?", "How do I deal with the guy, who's all over me?", "What to do with the guy, who blocks everything?", "How to do more damage when I got the stray hit?"

[@richardjohnson8991]

that's because the latter is a lot more conceptual and less easy to point to than a single super move input and says "do dis for dmg". it's hard as hell to explain conditioning and mind games

[@StanNotSoSaint]

@@richardjohnson8991 well, yeah. But it is possible. You can start by delineating stuff like "being in neutral", "applying pressure", "defending against pressure", so the lessons could be put in context more. The bigger picture player gets in the simplest of terms the easier it would be for them to understand what's going on at any given moment and what their general actions should be in these circumstances. From what I recall Skullgirls were not bad for that, explaining stuff like mixups and hitconfirms. But their tutorial obviously lacked in production values and interactivity.

[@ckorp666]

​@@richardjohnson8991 but imagine this: a street fighter tutorial where the dummy holds up-back (like a certain type of gold player), then the game teaches u to walk them into the corner and hold at The Golden Distance, then anti-air a jump-out attempt or do a counter DI. succeed at it once, run it back and have the bot throw in random yolo options between coward jumps. these sorts of things arent that hard to program when u have the infrastructure required for training mode to work as-is, they just require a creative vision for something thats inscrutably niche for the bosses that need to approve spending dev time on it

[@xxthelastdragonxx6735]

My issue with fighting games isn't being bad, its always been that its so difficult to use the tools that you're given. One of the main gameplay loops of fighting games, afaik are special moves and combos. If I go over to moba I can use 1 2 3 4 and all my other things, and chaining abilities together is significantly more generous to time. I don't need the majority of more complex mechanics or info, but for fighting games it feels like everyone else *is* using them. Its why people can gravitate towards fighting games like smash, you can *easily* do any special, and those games generally don't have their combos be as complex or difficult to time.

[@HoldenGatsby]

Fun fact, Wool's favourite pizza is corn.

[@CosmicRejectsVideo]

I like Pokken's training mode.

[@strategist9]

Having a title like that but being this weird pseudo-power point ramble is a bit of an off thing. I'll assume this guy has some better videos in general but....yeah I dunno man. I think a multiple choice test for teaching fighting game stuff really is just gonna make things more like work and while it might be useful, wouldn't exactly rope in a lot of casual people. I think his heart is in the right place but this video could have been structured a bit better. I really liked how World Tour handled teaching you things in a more organic way. The various enemies you fight are typically hard countered by a given part of the game. The little roombas need to be hit by lows, the drones are anti-air training, and the fridges are basically grapplers with the suction command grab. The little missions each fight gives you to get an extra reward if you do a specific thing also reinforce learning certain things like using Overdrives more or throwing more often. That said it also has weird stuff like if you tutor under Jamie one of the LAST moves he teaches you is the drink, when his entire playstyle is based around it (I know there's other ways to raise the drink level but that's the easiest way to level it up quick) so....room for improvement!

[@richardjohnson8991]

Teaching like a professional doesn't 1:1 equate to teaching a professional. A skillful teacher will distill information in a simplistic manner until concepts are understood and then the branching decision making can be formed from that baseline of understanding. Are you teaching an experienced player or someone new, because the new player needs way less information than the professional. you can make broader strokes with a new player

[@originalgamester1]

Noice

[@maxmin2434]

I feel like everyone knows what they is needed or want to teach people a fighting game better but can't propose it because it's not feasible because of the investment needed. Basically, people know and want a solo action/adventure game that will serve as a tutorial presenting the different FG scenarios and teaching the player while he's having fun. But yeah we all know compagnies won't go that far and it's basically like asking 2 games in one.

[@charlesplante]

Lets count the excuses for being a scrub lord: the movie

[@supervoltekka593]

>tfw no more tfh